Is individualism allowed???

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  • #835116

    zahavasdad:

    So if someone wants to be part of the Kehilla you must dress like the Kehilla, so if the uniform of the Kehilla is a white shirt and a rain poncho you must wear it and if you DONT you are not a Ben-Torah and should be ostracized for being differnt

    So is your question:

    Why is it, that when someone expresses his desire to not be part of a certain society by not conforming to their standards is he perceived as an outsider?

    So why when a Kehilla gets together to make community standards and one rov decides the standards are too leninent and tells people not to eat from the Kehilla hasghcha, He is considered a Tzadik

    I don’t think I understand what you mean here.

    #835117

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    if you DONT you are not a Ben-Torah and should be ostracized for being differnt

    You made that up. Nobody ever said that.

    So why when a Kehilla gets together to make community standards and one rov decides the standards are too leninent and tells people not to eat from the Kehilla hasghcha, He is considered a Tzadik

    You’ve got your facts wrong. He doesn’t say not to eat from the Vaad, he advises his kehilla members to only eat from the Vaad establishments which uphold his standards. He is their posek, not the Vaad.

    #835118

    lammed hey
    Member

    I’m going to stick my two cents in here:

    So why when a Kehilla gets together to make community standards and one rov decides the standards are too leninent and tells people not to eat from the Kehilla hasghcha, He is considered a Tzadik

    Why don’t you ask him?

    Well, I did. The purpose is to keep others informed. For example, take starkist tuna. At one point, the Vaad of the 5T would note on their Hashgacha if they were using this Kula. Yashan, Pas Yisroel, Cholov Yisroel (yes, the Vaad is not Machmir on Cholov Yisroel, as in Toddy’s), open on shabbos (as in Dunkin Doughnuts), etc. When the Vaad stopped noting these (rather critical) items in their Hashgacha, this Rov did some of his own investigation and found out what each establishment used. It evolved into the current list, in which there are certain minimum standards over what the Vaad holds of. The Rov will be the first to tell you the Vaad is Kosher, but he has a personal Achraus to his Kehila (which most do not use the list), and offers the opportunity to allow them to know what the issues are. He does not charge a penny to be on the list, and moves establishments on and off based on new information & his own checks. The Vaad can not act as quickly (for whatever reason). Rabbi Eisen, who is the head Moshgiach of the Vaad of the 5T, is very happy with this Rov’s list. Otherwise, when asked where you can eat, R’ Eisen would be unable to respond regarding each place’s Kulas. He now simply responds to look at the list.

    Others (J&W22) have pointed out that the Rov will tell you what the issues are in a non list establishment (for example, the hot dog buns are not Pas Yisroel), and allow you to make the choice to eat there or not. He will never say it is not Kosher.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-the-vaad-the-mafia/page/2#post-329534

    #835119

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    lammed hey,

    One detail: he had a list before the short-lived detailed t’udah (although he may have temporarily suspended it at one point).

    #835120

    Health
    Participant

    mamashtakah -“In your opinion.”

    Actually I have no opinion on this. This is the opinion of Gedolim who lived before I was born and it is very sad that some people who call themselves Rabbis told you it’s ok for a girl to be in the army!

    #835121

    mamashtakah
    Member

    it is very sad that some people who call themselves Rabbis told you it’s ok for a girl to be in the army!

    Why? Because they know how to make a psak based on a particular situation, instead of just putting everything under a blanket “it’s assur?”

    #835122

    Health
    Participant

    mamashtakah -“Why? Because they know how to make a psak based on a particular situation, instead of just putting everything under a blanket “it’s assur?”

    Because these people can’t find exceptions to the rule, if they don’t know the Rule! If they never spoke to these Gedolim and know all the reasons why they said this is Ossur – how would they know when there is an exception????

    #835123

    Health, I don’t think you are right to ‘educate’ mamashtakah. Not in this way, and not at all.

    #835124

    tahini
    Member

    Mamashtakah, kol hakavod to you and your family. I am sure you felt very proud for your daughter.

    #835125

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Thank you tahini, we are very proud of her. Not just for being in the army, but for the way she’s doing it. She learned in midrasha for a year before going, and she – and a small group of friends – are known as “the mitpalalot” because they daven every morning.

    Health, our rebbeim learned and received their smicha in E”Y. They know the relevant halachot very well, and I’m very sure they know them better than you.

    #835126

    Health
    Participant

    chocandpatience -“Health, I don’t think you are right to ‘educate’ mamashtakah. Not in this way, and not at all.”

    If s/o posts in this Frum site -something against Torah/Halacha e/o should stand up and scream, not just me!!

    #835127

    Health
    Participant

    mamashtakah -“Health, our rebbeim learned and received their smicha in E”Y. They know the relevant halachot very well, and I’m very sure they know them better than you.”

    No matter that they are Poiskim and have Smicha, they can’t argue with Gedolim of Yesteryear. As far as I know – No Godol ever permitted a girl to join the army!

    #835128

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Health, all you need to say is, “Please thank your daughter for her service to Israel.” Perhaps if more young men would join the IDF, having women in the IDF would be unnecessary. Shabbat Shalom

    #835129

    Health
    Participant

    mamashtakah -Yes, she is serving Israel -she isn’t serving Hashem.

    The purpose of e/o is to serve Hashem and Israel is Not in place of G-d. Lest you think that this is my opinion in general about going to the Israeli army – perhaps it is. But I wouldn’t castigate anyone (male) who decided to join because there are Gedolim who held it was/is Mutter. There is NO excuse or HETER for a female to join the Israeli army, even though they say it’s good for morale.

    #835130

    Toi
    Participant

    Chazon Ish said yaharog vi’al ya’avor. i think thats pretty clear cut. he didnt say “sometimes”.

    #835131

    Josh31
    Participant

    We are getting far “off thread”.

    Last week I argued against extending military style regimentation to our communities, and now it is about “women in the army”.

    In general the more men can step up to the plate and serve in the army when needed and use their individualism to create wealth afterwards, the easier the ideal of “Kol kevuda bas melech …” can be pursued.

    #835132

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    DH: That doesn’t address my point and you know it.

    #835133

    Health
    Participant

    Josh31 -“In general the more men can step up to the plate and serve in the army when needed and use their individualism to create wealth afterwards, the easier the ideal of “Kol kevuda bas melech …” can be pursued.”

    This isn’t about ideals, the girls aren’t allowed to join -PERIOD!!!!!!

    #835135

    Josh31
    Participant

    Health, the men serving in the army is to reduce the pressure on women to serve and avoid the “yehareg vi’al ya’avor” situation in the first place. (Toi has it wrong with the word “yaharog”.)

    The wealth I talked about is what allows the possibility of “Kol kevudah bas melech …”. We never expect women to starve themselves if they cannot find a husband to support them.

    #835136

    Health
    Participant

    Josh31 – Don’t mix up two things. I don’t have a problem with women going out to work. I was discussing female army service.

    “Health, the men serving in the army is to reduce the pressure on women to serve and avoid the “yehareg vi’al ya’avor” situation in the first place”

    It’s irrevelant how much pressure they have -they can’t join no matter what!!! A simple concept -how many men is not part of the equation!

    #835137

    Josh31
    Participant

    Health, are you saying that men have no obligation to reduce the need for and pressure on women to serve in the army?

    #835138

    Health
    Participant

    Josh -Exactly. How did you figure that out? Not only that, but men don’t have to go to the army unless they want to. They can stay in Yeshiva and learn -even the Israeli gov. gives this as an exemption.

    #835139

    tahini
    Member

    Nothing is worse than taking and not giving back, contributing to the community is a crucial jewish mitzvah and value. Some are able to take active service in the IDF others take on positions in organisations such as ZAKA if they feel full army service is not appropriate for them. There are specific charedi army units and amongst younger officers a growing number of frum young people. Some young religious girls find different ways to give back to society be it in standard IDF uniform or other ways of undertaking national service.

    Yes Health some do not go into the army, some healthy young men take money from the govt in Israel and stay in Yeshiva and learn, leaving it to others to defend, feed and support them and their families. Others go to hesder yeshivas, learn and defend as well as giving back to society.

    #835140

    Rosh Cham
    Participant

    Health look at it this way, we are in a matzav of pikuach nefesh, everything else comes in second,if you dont belive that we are in that matzav, then im afraid you are either increadibly naive or intentionaly ignoren.

    #835141

    Health
    Participant

    tahini -“Nothing is worse than taking and not giving back, contributing to the community is a crucial jewish mitzvah and value.

    Yes Health some do not go into the army, some healthy young men take money from the govt in Israel and stay in Yeshiva and learn, leaving it to others to defend, feed and support them and their families. Others go to hesder yeshivas, learn and defend as well as giving back to society.”

    Your post is nothing short of Kefira, but you might not be a Koifer, just an Am Haaretz with a poor upbringing. The biggest defense against an enemy is Limud Hatorah (learning Torah). Not part time like the Hesder boys, but full time – in regular Yeshivos!

    #835142

    Health
    Participant

    Rosh Cham -“Health look at it this way, we are in a matzav of pikuach nefesh, everything else comes in second,if you dont belive that we are in that matzav, then im afraid you are either increadibly naive or intentionaly ignoren.”

    Look the Din of “yehareg vi’al ya’avor” which the Gedolim said about women going to the army is mainly in a case of Pikuach Nefesh! If you don’t understand this, then I’m afraid you are either incredibly naive or intentionaly ignorant!”

    #835143

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: I’m not sure what Kefira there is in tahini’s post. Why don’t you provide a source backing up what you are saying (that the best defense is Talmud Torah) before you call someone else a Kofer?

    #835144

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ItcheSrulik,

    DH: That doesn’t address my point and you know it.

    I thought it did, so I obviously also missed your point. Could you please explain?

    #835146

    Health, you are not only arrogant and opinionated, you are rude and insulting.

    Mods, I think Health needs a time out.

    #835147

    tahini
    Member

    Sam2 thank you for your post.

    Health I realise polite discussion is not appropriate here with you. You wish to stand up and defend Torah values, good for you. So do I, in my family we defend Torah values and people with prayer, learning and action. Action can take many forms, from doing local community volunteering, to being part of ZAKA or part of an IDF unit. I This thread was entitled ” is individualism allowed?” I applaud those frum young people able to combine Torah values and army service, a challenging thing to do, which merits great respect from me for each and everyone of those individuals. What a tragedy that in our world we insult each other so easily. I wish you well

    #835148

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    tahini, what a special person you are for the way you handled the insult directed at you! May we all learn from you! And yes, it’s quite a tragedy that some people just can’t seem to discuss things with others that they may not agree with without insulting them. I wish everyone in the CR was like you.

    mamashtakah, I wish your daughter much success, and may she continue to bring you and your family much happiness and pride.

    #835149

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: I’m not sure what Kefira there is in tahini’s post. Why don’t you provide a source backing up what you are saying (that the best defense is Talmud Torah) before you call someone else a Kofer?”

    You’re not serious are you???? Did you skip Chumash and go straight to S’A? Did you ever hear of the Parsha called Oobechukosy?

    #835150

    Health
    Participant

    Raphael Kaufman -“Health, you are not only arrogant and opinionated, you are rude and insulting.”

    Kol Hapoisel B’momo Poisel. I never see you join discussions here in the CR. All I ever see you doing is being a armchair Judge. You only come to tell e/o when there is a difference of opinion that the one you agree with – is right. This to me is rude & arrogant!

    #835151

    Health
    Participant

    tahini -“What a tragedy that in our world we insult each other so easily.”

    “Nothing is worse than taking and not giving back, contributing to the community is a crucial jewish mitzvah and value.

    Yes Health some do not go into the army, some healthy young men take money from the govt in Israel and stay in Yeshiva and learn, leaving it to others to defend, feed and support them and their families. Others go to hesder yeshivas, learn and defend as well as giving back to society.”

    Care to reread your post? You started insulting a whole segment of Frum society -namely Kollel Yungerleight. I just stood up in their defense. Let’s see “Nothing is worse than taking and not giving back” -I’m sure Sam and Middle Path will say that you weren’t talking about anybody in particular.

    So then you post -“leaving it to others to defend, feed and support them and their families. Others go to hesder yeshivas, learn and defend as well as giving back to society.”

    You compare Kollel/ Yeshiva to Hesder guys and the implication is that it is only the Hesder guys that “give back to society”. I guess the Kollel guys whom leave it to others to defend, feed and support them and their families are leeches, right?

    So when you Diss a whole segment of society don’t complain -“What a tragedy that in our world we insult each other so easily.”!!!!

    #835152

    Josh31
    Participant

    <Look the Din of “yehareg vi’al ya’avor”>

    The hard right uses this term as a call for zealotry, heroism and sacrifice.

    The real message of this concept, is that basic morality must come first in Judaism.

    Degrading other human beings and stealing their money, even for the most lofty spiritual purposes is never allowed.

    When an enemy committed to our destruction arises, then men and not women must rise to defend us.

    Kosher money must first be earned and willingly given before full time learning can occur.

    #835153

    Health
    Participant

    Josh31 -“Degrading other human beings and stealing their money, even for the most lofty spiritual purposes is never allowed.”

    Are you insinuating this about Kollel guys? I certainly hope not!

    “When an enemy committed to our destruction arises, then men and not women must rise to defend us.”

    So now you are agreeing with me that women shouldn’t join the army! 🙂

    “Kosher money must first be earned and willingly given before full time learning can occur.”

    This makes no sense. A kollel check is Kosher money. Usually full time learning occurs after high school or whenever that Yeshiva ends their secular studies. This is almost always before the person goes out and makes a living.

    #835154

    tahini
    Member

    Middlepath thank you for your kind post.

    #835155

    old man
    Participant

    Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, including me.

    It is absolutely permissible for women to serve in the Israeli army. If a woman feels she contributes to the Jewish People best this way, she should be fully supported in this decision, and kol hakavod to her.

    It is not only permissible, it is obligatory for Israeli men to serve in the Israeli army.

    #835156

    Josh31
    Participant

    Zevulen comes before Yisaschar. And Zevulen must be willing.

    #835157

    Health
    Participant

    old man -So you are one of these Mizrachi Rabbis?

    Who gave you the right to argue on Gedolim?

    Yea, but make sure everything you eat is Yoshon!

    #835158

    Health
    Participant

    Josh31 -Stop talking in riddles. This isn’t a game. Are you refering to gov. money that Yeshivas take? If so, that is willingly because the gov. & their laws represent you and they are giving it. If you don’t like what your gov. is doing -you have the option of voting them out!

    #835160

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Who gave you the right to argue on Gedolim?

    So we can assume that you listen to every chumra spoken out by every Gadol?

    MiddlePath, I thank you for the kind words about my daughter.

    #835161

    Health
    Participant

    mamashtakah -“So we can assume that you listen to every chumra spoken out by every Gadol?”

    You’re not serious, are you? The Gedolim said it’s like the worse Aveira to join the army, if you are a girl. This has nothing to do with Chumras!

    #835162

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Health, I notice you didn’t answer my question.

    #835163

    Health
    Participant

    mamashtakah -“Health, I notice you didn’t answer my question.”

    What a brilliant observation!

    The question is irrevelant to the topic. I can ask you irrevelant questions also -Are you a man or a lady? How old are you? What’s your name?

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