August 22, 2014 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #613503Francorachel3Participant
I know of instances where the husband is holding out for diferentreasons : extorting money from the wife and her family..,, or revenge…., but is there ever a legitimate reason? Otherwise how can any man who considers himself and is considered by the Frum Oilam to be a good Yid, ever have an excuse for this? Why do they have so many supporters in our community instead of being treated the way they should be, like a M’isarrev l’din? I know people who are still nicely treating some of these men who were abusive to the wife ! How can you live with yourself, is the wife’s life and health and safety meaningless to you? Why do you believe so fast the mans lies, oh he couldn’t have done it to her, he’s such a Mensh, so eydel,, so nice, so frumme the wife must be lying. Wake up!! People don’t allways act in public the same way they are in the house. Abusers don’t wear a sign On them. You don’t know what happened in the house between them Don’t be fooled like so easy. Use your brains . Isnt it just possible the wife could be telling the truth?? Maybe his sheine middos on the outside for the public are just an act? Huh? Possible?maybe? Aren’t you afraid after hindert un tzvontzig what you’ll get in Shumayim?August 22, 2014 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1032074YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
I know a situation where the wife keeps turning down the get so she can tell people he isn’t giving it.August 22, 2014 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1032075Navie (Joseph)Member
To answer your question, the Torah doesn’t have divorce on demand and just because one spouse wants it and asks for it does not mean halacha says he has to give it. If there’s no obligation to give it, the halacha supports declining to give it. Only after a beis din holds a case and determines it is halachicly required and formally demands and requires it be given per halacha, is there an obligation to give. In other cases where the intention is to give it but the other spouse is committing an injustice such as improperly withholding access to the children or using secular courts to obtain money or assets from the other, often a rov will advise it is proper to hold off giving it until the spouse corrects their improper and unhalachic actions against the spouse.August 22, 2014 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1032076
Once Bais Din orders the giving of a get it is always assur to withhold it.August 22, 2014 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1032077catch yourselfParticipant
I feel your pain. You need a supportive Rav, who is not afraid to fight your case, and who is experienced enough not to be fooled by the other party’s presentation.
I wish you much hatzlacha, and may Hashem champion your cause.
That said, I agree with Navi’s (refreshingly dispassionate) comment. The fact is that there are cases where the wife is the one manipulating the situation (and the tendency on the part of ignorant observers to assume that the husband is evil). There are cases (some with which I am intimately familiar) where the wife and her family are guilty of horrific psychological abuse of the husband, starting with the wedding day and continuing through divorce negotiations. In these cases, responsible Rabbonim have advised the husbands that they are under no obligation to grant a get.
This is a serious matter which needs to be adjudicated by wise, experienced, caring Rabbonim (and without the corruption of certain “To’anim” who care about nothing and no one other than their own bank account).
U’macha Hashem Elokim dim’a me’al kol panim.August 22, 2014 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1032078charliehallParticipant
It is proper to withhold a get if you want to continue to be married to your wife.
However, if you want to get divorced, it is a mitzvah to give the get. Period.
And if a beit din orders you to give a get, it is a mitzvah to comply with that beit din. Period.
Money and child custody are separate issues. If your spouse (or ex-spouse) is acting improperly, she will have to answer in olam ha-ba.August 22, 2014 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #1032079yaakov doeParticipant
Of course there are cases when witholding the get is proper. The only ones that really know the reasons for the divorce and the witholding of the get are the couple.In most situations it’s best to give the get and get on with life, but some men and some women are unreasonable.August 22, 2014 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1032080akupermaParticipant
If the man has a valid argument against the divorce (e.g. he is madly in love with his wife and hopes she’ll change her mind), he should make the arugment to the Beis Din. However if the Beis Din told him to give the “get”, it’s a bit late.August 22, 2014 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1032081
Bais Din is limited in its ability to order a Get be given if the husband advises the Bais Din he wishes to remain married to his wife. In order for the b’d to demand a Get against his wishes, it needs to determine and verify a specific situation occurred that halacha expressly gives her the right to a Get against his desire. As a practical matter it is infrequent that beis din will order it be given against wishes.August 23, 2014 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1032082
My experience is limited. However a woman wishing to dissolve a marriage – which presumably her husband invested time, money and heart in – needs to justify herself. On what grounds does she want out?
If she cannot justify divorcing, then he has every right to deny a get. She is trying to do an injustice, to harm another. No one has an innate right to a get.
However, he needs to be realistic. If its not gonna be, its not gonna be. Just or unjust, if she tunes out, there will be no marriage. Its over. So I think it would be right that he humor her and divorce her, because he anyhow has no hope for a marriage here.
(Perhaps I’m wrong but marriage seems analogous to partnering in a business. Would one partner tolerate the other to just walk out and destroy the business in the process???)August 24, 2014 3:09 am at 3:09 am #1032083
Once it’s clear the marriage is over, it is never appropriate. Usually if she continues to state that there is never any chance for reconciliation for a few weeks or more then it is clear the marriage is over and any Beis Din will agree and order her to give the Get.August 24, 2014 3:51 am at 3:51 am #1032085popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I think it is appropriate if necessary to combat unfair tactics used by the other side.August 24, 2014 4:00 am at 4:00 am #1032086musser zogerParticipant
Sam, I may be wrong but I don’t think the woman gives the get.August 24, 2014 4:05 am at 4:05 am #1032087147Participant
Irrespective of whether or not it is a Mitzwah to give a Get even if man wishes marriage to remain effective and get back together, Nothing changes the Father’s obligation of Talmud Toroh and veHigadto leVincho on Seder nite, towards his children. To this end, if any mother ever withholds parenting time for the father, she is definitely causing Toroh obligations on the father to be non-observed.
So much so, that in Jewish Law, when a Boy reaches age 6, the Father gets custody of his son, to teach his son, Toroh. Until such time as a Beth Din follows this Halocho, why should they be forcing Father to give Het to Mother, but ignoring Toroh laws of teaching Toro to his son?
In many cases this is the only leverage the father has, to get his parenting time, to teach his children Toroh, so he should absolutely utilize this leverage of withholding Get to counteract the Limud Toroh to his son that the mother is withholding from the father.August 24, 2014 4:07 am at 4:07 am #1032088moishepipik (joseph)Member
lebidik yankel is correct. the mechaber (eh 77:2) and the rema (77:3) rule that even with maos alei beit din is not empowered to force a get. even if she has evidence of maos alei they rule beit din wont force her to remain in his home but wont force him to give a get. if she claims she was beat by him that would be grounds to force it be given only after beit din verified the veracity of the claim according to the mechaber and gave him the opportunity to shape up and stop it and he still persisted. if she altogether has no evidence of grounds for a get then even she persistently requests it the beit din is not empowered to grant it. the teshuvos harosh (43:6) rules that if beit din pressures him to give it when they weren’t supposed to, the result is a get meusa.August 24, 2014 5:06 am at 5:06 am #1032090🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
I think withholding a get makes sense if the husband still believes that the marriage has potential. If he is a cohen, it makes even more sense as they cannot remarry each other should he give the divorce. But, of course, common sense should be applied. If there is no potential for a happy marriage, they should at least aim for a divorce without battles.August 24, 2014 5:23 am at 5:23 am #1032091
mz: Thanks. Typos happen.
moishepipik: That is only immediate. According to many Poskim, she cannot claim Maus Alai to immediately receive a Get because Shema Nasna Eineha B’acher. But if they are separated for months and the marriage is over, then Beis Din can force to give a Get. We do not force women to remain in unhappy marriages. Are you actually claiming that if he fulfills his technical legal duties and never hits her that she can’t end the marriage, even if she’s miserable? She has to be chained to someone she can’t stand being with forever? Once the marriage is over (e.g. separated for more than a few weeks and no desire for counseling), he is obligated to give a Get so she can move on. End of discussion.
leibdik yainkel: First of all, Halachically, a partner can usually just up and take his half of the business and leave. So you chose a bad example. Second of all, you chose a bad example because a marriage is nothing like a business. A marriage is life, nothing less. A business is just a job.August 24, 2014 5:31 am at 5:31 am #1032092
Good point, Gamanit. A Cohen should be most reluctant to divorce as not only can he not remarry his wife but he may have a very difficult time remarrying altogether as he will be a divorcee seeking to marry a never married girl. And there are not too many never married girls who will agree to marry a divorced man. So a Cohen needs to be doubly reluctant to give a Get.August 24, 2014 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1032093147Participant
as he will be a divorcee seeking to marry a never married girl if he happens to be the Kohen Godol; However, if he is a regular Kohen, he can also marry an Almono. BTW, even if he is married to an Almono, he is eligible to subsequently be appointed to be Kohen Godol.August 24, 2014 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1032094
As Sam2 said, once they have been divorced in secular court and are no longer living together as a married couple, Bais Din will demand a get. Moreover, you are quoting the Tosafos HaRosh, when the Rema paskens that Bais Din and communities can use societal pressure, short of a formal cheirem or beating him up, if they deem her maus alai to be valid.
Most importantly, the question posed by the OP was about what was proper on the part of the husband, not on Bais Din’s power.August 24, 2014 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1032095moishepipik (joseph)Member
sam2 & benignuman, thanks for your input on my post. what you write is how the rambam paskens about permitting pressure on a bona fide maos alei case. but the mechaber rules against rambam on this that beit din isnt permitted and the poskim since consistently accept the mechaber. yes, even if it is a long time separated it still isnt permitted to force him against his will. the mechaber and rema dont differentiate when permitting coercing the husband regardless of time they have been apart. a caveat to that is that it she can demonstrate to beit din that she has a legitimate maos alei permitted to do societal pressure, but no more – and even cherem isnt permitted. as you said there are cases where he is obligated to give a get even though beit din cannot coerce him (or it will be a get meusa) but he will give din vcheshbon if he refuses and there are other cases, such as she cannot prove a valid reason of maos alei (eg she feels he isnt loving or nice enough), that if he doesnt want to give a get he is entirely within his prerogative under halakha to decide he wishes the marriage to continue – and her leaving him regardless of lenth of time does not mean he has any obligation to give a get if he earnestly wishes to remain married. the ravvad in yerushalayim and rav eliashev write strong words against beit dins that apply pressure when it isnt permitted and they write their doing so causes mamzeirus in the world. since this is an issue with catastrophic consequences if a get meusa is used to remarry the poskim are very stringent in forbidding relying on the rambam to permit coercion by maos alei.August 24, 2014 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1032096
moishe: So your opinion is that a man has the right to refuse his wife a Get, even if they have been separated for many years and will never reconcile? If so, I hope you never get married.August 24, 2014 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1032097
Withholding a get might be permissible as far as halacha – letter of the law – requires. But in many situations, it is simply not menchlich. There is a mitzvah of ????? ???? ?????, and this has become one of the less popular mitzvos. Knowing many cases of divorces, before, during, and after, I would chalk up statistics that are pretty even in terms of men and women being unfair about the process. Giving the get before the affairs are settled is foolish. Most batei din will not stand for it. Our media has reported on a few such cases that achieved notoriety.
A man can be ordered by beis din, and still not give a get. This has occurred many times, and the fact that such a scenario exists speak loudly and ill of the prevailing level of yir’as shomayim. Conversely, the women who make ridiculous demands, refusing to accept equitable settlements are equally as lacking in yir’as shomayim.
We witness today that organizations like ACS, which should be charged with protecting children, are exploited by divorcing parents to deny the other side access to their own children. What a shame that our systems allow for such manipulation and diversion.
I encourage other readers of this thread and commenters to keep an open mind, and refrain from generalizations about men, women, or even batei din. There is enough corruption and dishonesty for all to share hefty portions. No case can be judged by “statistics”.August 24, 2014 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1032099charliehallParticipant
“Giving the get before the affairs are settled is foolish. Most batei din will not stand for it. “
I know lots of divorced couples where the get was given quickly and properly, long before the financial and custody issues were settled. As I pointed out earlier, if the husband really doesn’t want to be married any more, it is a mitzvah for him to give a get, and if the wife really doesn’t want to be married any more, it is a mitzvah for her to accept the get. A truly religious Jew will always rush to fulfill mitzvot.August 24, 2014 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1032100
You are confusing halachic categories. The Rambam holds that B”D is koifeh by a legitimate (i.e. with amasla) maos alai right away. Rashi holds that by maos alai we give them 12 months to work it out, living together, and then are koifeh if they can’t work it out. The Rema and the Mechaber pasken not like the Rambam and Rashi, but rather like Rabbeinu Tam and the Rashba who hold that we are not koifeh by maos alai because “shema nasna ainav b’acher” and if the maos alai was a lie, then the kefiah would be improper and the get posul (note that it is a chashash mamzeirus, not actual mamzeirus). However Rabbeinu Tam holds, and the Rema paskens, that societal pressure is not considered kefiah at all.
There is a separate din that if a husband is no longer living with his wife and no longer supporting her on a regular basis, then we are koifeh. What Sam2 and I were describing is this latter din.August 24, 2014 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1032101
I appreciate the sentiments offered here. I agree that once secular divorce has been granted, it is pointless to withhold a get and it is the high-road to give one.
However it really is similar to the partner analogy: one partner is a bum and refuses to honor his commitment. The other partner perhaps realizes that it is what it is and will agree to take the high-road and agree to dissolve the partnership. But he is hardly OBLIGATED!
So too here. A man or woman wishes to dissolve their partnership, causing harm to the other. The fact that they are resolute in doing the wrong thing and asking for an unjustified divorce does not entitle them in any way. On the contrary, it makes them more wrong.
What ought one to do? Sometimes it may be proper to hold the woman to her obligation and demand that she continue the marriage. One case that might be is when she will cause harm to their children as well. At other times the mentchliche thing would be to concede the battle, even if she is in the wrong.
All this applies to the man too, by the way.August 24, 2014 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #1032102
leibdik: Forcing someone to remain in a marriage they don’t want to be in is straight-up evil, no matter what your reason. You think she’s in the wrong? That’s fine. You could even be right. It doesn’t matter. It is one of the most despicable things a person can do to force a life of loneliness on another human being. Leaving out any Issurim of Ona’ah, Ahavas Rei’im, etc., people can find technical ways to be be evil and still not violate any specific Dinim. That doesn’t make them not evil.August 24, 2014 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1032103
Sam2: The example lebidik yankel gave that you’re taking issue with is a situation where he is not telling her to live a lonely life. He is ready and willing, lebidik yankel said, to return to the marriage with her. It is her choice of not accepting that that is resulting in what you describe. She can always accept him if she were in the wrong and return to her existing marriage.
benignuman: That latter din you are describing would only be applicable if it was the husband’s choice of not living and supporting his wife. If he was ready and willing to live and support her but she chose not to accept that, we are not koifeh.August 24, 2014 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #1032104aymdockParticipant
I am by far NOT holding in gittin with halacha. However, we much all realize the approach to the concept of a get in the first place is from the Torah HaKedosha. As heard from one great speaker, if nobody is “in charge” of the relationship, the woman is not a wife – she’s a “pilegesh,” or, if you want to rile up the person asking the question, say it in English: a concubine. There’s no direction or leader – there’s just a mutually agreed idea that they are together.
Jewish marriage has responsibilities on each side, and the Torah, Moshe Emes v’Toraso Emes, and Chazal the bears of the mosora of Torah she ba’al peh, had nothing but the most pure and best intentions for marriage to work. A get is a part of that process.
I just wanted to make sure everyone knows why the halachic debate being had here is germane in the first place.
In other words, to answer the question of the asker, it -is- sometimes proper to withhold a get. The main point of the get is to show that the husband has a certain control. And that -is- respectful to women. V’Ain Cahn Makom L’ha’arikh.
We have to make sure we don’t insert our false and sometimes, unfortunately, ingrained Western Feminism values into this discussion. The Torah is NOT Western, and it is NOT American. It is JEWISH, the best feminism that exists.August 25, 2014 6:10 am at 6:10 am #1032105frumnotyeshivishParticipant
Wow. There are really people who think that it is OK to force a woman to stay married. I don’t envy their wives, children, or share in gehinomm (if they actually do that).
On an entirely separate note, there is the issue of using the procedural power of get-giving as a defensive mechanism to protect against other abuse. This is less clear. While in theory it seems justifiable, an objective, honorable and knowledgeable person must be consulted before such a drastic step is taken. It seems too easy to call anything “abuse” or “defensive.” After all the best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way round?August 25, 2014 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1032106Booklearn100 (Joseph)Participant
frumnotyeshivish: Rabbeinu Gershom is one of the people that thought that. His takana gives the wife the right to refuse accepting the Get on the basis she wants to continue the marriage even though the husband does not. (The reverse (the husband’s right to such) was always a Torah law.)August 25, 2014 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #1032107ABS-SAParticipant
In reality it is not. There may be circumstances where technical reasons can be found to refuse to give a get, but this is invariably not a wise move. The fact is that if a woman does not want to remain married forcing her will only keep her there in body but not spirit.
Also, it seems to me (although its obviously something that can’t be proven) that men who would not dream of withholding a get no matter what the circumstances tend to make good husbands and stay married!
I would venture to add that as a society we are not hard enough on get refusers. Get-refusal is nothing other than a form of abuse and needs to be treated with the same contempt that we reserve for paedophiles and the like.August 25, 2014 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1032108MyTurnAtBatMember
Some women are very fickle and under the influence of modern attitudes will trash a marriage in 10 seconds. I know a number of very nice men whose wives divorced them and took the kids. The get rules are likely created to prevent that sort of thing. So the divorce mongers like to advertise the extreme cases and pretend every man is a monster and all gets are justified. They are not. Just like you can’t walk away from your kids if you don’t like them, you can’t necessarily walk away from your spouse either.August 25, 2014 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1032109BarryLS1Participant
In general, a man withholding a Get is wrong and is hurting himself too. Who would want to marry such a person?
I do know of a case where the wife’s lawyer advised her to claim the husband molested his children, so she gets full custody. The man lost his job status over it, yet the claim was false.
He withheld the Get insisting the wife recants the false statement, so he can get his life back. This situation, it seems to me, is one of the few situations where not giving the Get has some merit.August 26, 2014 3:00 am at 3:00 am #1032110Francorachel3Participant
I find your story very hard to believe. How could you possibly know whether the molestation did in fact happen or not? Also, no lawyer would ever encourage their client to make up such a story because they could easily be disbarred. I find that all too often people are too quick to believe the wife made up stories about the “Frum, innocent tzaddik of a husband who couldn’t possibly have done what she says he did.” Some people are naive and ignorant enough to not understand that just because a man is nice and Frum and kind to people on the outside, that he could have a different side to him when he’s home with his wife and children. Do you really think all child molesters look like monsters? Do they wear a Sign? No they look like regular people on the outside and some (gasp) even have long beards, remember appearances can be deceiving and not be so willing and trusting to believe foolishly that the wife must be making up stories. Remember there is a reason she wanted out of the marriage and lots of times it’s because of abuse, whether towards her and or the kids,August 26, 2014 3:27 am at 3:27 am #1032111
Sam2: I suggest that marriage is not a prison. It needs compatibility. Sometimes people make a mistake and marry the wrong person. They are justified in asking for a get, although it is likely they will be at a legal disadvantage, much as someone breaking a business partnership with an ogre may be justified morally but at a legal disadvantage.
However often one side just wants out. I sat in at a meeting with a psychologist where a marriage was under discussion and the therapist thought they needed to work things out. The wife said ‘No’ – she just wanted out. Is that justified??
After the two sides invested time, money and heart into getting married, I think there needs to be justification to break someone else’s (i.e. your spouse’s) marriage.
You write: “Forcing someone to remain in a marriage they don’t want to be in is straight-up evil, no matter what your reason.” Why would that be????August 26, 2014 4:00 am at 4:00 am #1032112
Yankel: +1August 26, 2014 5:37 am at 5:37 am #1032113
Leibdik Yankel and Lior: I don’t care if she’s being silly in throwing away the marriage. She doesn’t want to be married to this guy. He is forcing her to stay married to him. Ergo, he is forcing her to be married to someone she doesn’t want to be married to or to be single forever. It’s a very simple equation. The fact that you can’t see something wrong with that is beyond disturbing.
Booklearn: Not quite. If he gives the Get and she refuses it, they are still divorced. It was always Assur to be M’garesh Ba’al Korchah. People just didn’t care too often so he added a Cherem.
I would agree that in a case such as Barry’s, if it exists, it may not be wrong to withhold.August 26, 2014 9:23 am at 9:23 am #1032114ChortkovParticipant
There doesn’t seem much of a fight here – general consensus is that as far as Hilchos Bein Odom Lmokom (Hilchos Gittin) are concerned, there is no obligation for a husband for divorce his wife just because she wants out. However, Bein Odom Lechaveiro would dictate that he does divorce her.August 26, 2014 10:40 am at 10:40 am #1032115
Sam: Yankel is correct in that in an existing marriage an individual spouse does not have the unilateral right to terminate the marriage even if he/she no longer wants to be married to his/her spouse for reasons not considered justifiable under Jewish Law. Jewish Law is very clear that a marriage can only be unilaterally terminated for cause.
Why did RG reinforce the prohibition to divorce ba’al korchah? According to your position it should have been okay for either spouse who wanted to divorce to have the right to do so even “if she’s being silly in throwing away the marriage” as you put it.August 26, 2014 11:43 am at 11:43 am #1032116
Yekke: I would posit, as I believe Yankel does above, that if there is no justifiable cause for divorce (i.e. “being silly” as Sam put it), then it would be Bein Odom Lechaveiro for the spouse seeking a divorce without good reason to agree to remain married rather than the reverse.
Like Yankel pointed out, the spouse invested in his marriage the time, love, energy, a portion of his life and the joint bringing of children to the world. And a divorce is usually traumatic for both the spouses and their children and is a major life change for everyone. It is not only his legal right to insist but it is entirely fair that a spouse desires and seeks for shalom bayis and the continuation of their marriage especially if a divorce is being sought for silly or rectifiable reasons.August 27, 2014 5:29 am at 5:29 am #1032117frumnotyeshivishParticipant
Lior: if the focus is on the woman’s right, you may be correct. However, this entire thread is (or should be) focused on the man’s responsibility.
“Veohavta lereiacha komocha” is a fundamental obligation which requires a man to allow his wife out of an undesirable relationship. There is no one in the universe who wants to be stuck in a marriage they don’t desire.August 27, 2014 10:53 am at 10:53 am #1032118
What if someone wanted to “divorce” and end their relationship with their children? Or their parents. The day is not too far off where some judge will find some kind of “Constitutional right” to do so! And, unfortunately like much else, once society gets used to that and accepts it as a right, some of our own chevra will have drunk that kool-aid that such a right exists. And will insist anyone trying to deny a person the right to end his undesirable relationship with his children or parents is violating Veohavta lereiacha komocha and Bein Adam Lchaveiro. And that it is disturbing that anyone could believe one should be denied their desire to divorce themselves from their children. Even for silly reasons.
I see frum people online advocating that their is a right to same gender marriage! Civil rights, minority rights and all the stuff that the media bombards society with. Some frum people have drunk that kool-aid. Would you even dream that a mere 20 years ago you would be hearing frum people supporting same gender “marriage”?!? Not even in a nightmare. Secular society, too, was dead set against such a travesty then. Now that society has accepted those new lack of values have too crept into our own values. 25 years ago if a frum person advocated such a horrible thing they would be sent to a doctor.
editedAugust 27, 2014 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #1032120
By the way, the last kick of the door on the way out is common. Courts are aware of and expecting the wives to accuse their husbands of molesting the children as part of the divorce process. They have the freedom of making an accusation that can wreck the lives of the husbands, restrict their access to the children, and essentially satisfy their craving to take revenge. There are marriages in which enough pain has been suffered, so we might understand the desire for revenge, but that does not legitimize it, neither halachically or morally. Unfortunately, once an accusation has been made, the courts implement the full scale investigations, restricting visitation to either under supervision, or stopping it altogether. I know of cases where the children later complained that they were pressured by the mothers to fabricate accusations. So far, these mothers get away with this murder, and are not charged with the crime of making false reports.
Yes, lawyers have been known to allow this to happen, and many are deserving of disbarment. I have first hand knowledge of this, so I am not spouting rumors or frivolous accusations.
Divorce is painful, and can easily become ugly. Halevai we could see the process of dissolving marriages, when it chas veshalom needs to occur, proceed as an amicable process. It is possible. My view – lawyers and toanim enjoy the thrill of the good fight, and they make parnosoh from this. Why should they not encourage the viciousness and battles?August 27, 2014 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1032121☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Lior, two points.
1) One can choose to sever relationships with parents or children with no ramifications, other than financial obligations regarding young children, and of course the mitzvah of kibud/mora for which there is no get. Only marriage requires a get, or l’havdil, secular divorce, to terminate it. I do agree with you that marriage has become too disposable to many, but I don’t see the point of comparison to other relationships.
2) At what point does a husband reach the understanding that despite the wife being entirely wrong for wanting to end the marriage, she is not changing her mind? Two years? Five years? Never? If a woman left her husband twenty years ago for silly reasons, should he not give the get simply because she’s still in the wrong?August 27, 2014 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1032122
Lior: Yes, if I break a promise and end a marriage unnecessarily I have done something wrong. Few people would dispute that. However, that does not make it a terrible Avlah to force someone to remain in a marriage they don’t want. And we do Pasken like R’ Akiva. As R’ Schachter says, “falling out of love” is a fair reason to divorce someone.
TLIK: I totally agree with you about the divorce lawyers and Toanim. About your first paragraph though, what choice is there. If the mother makes seemingly-plausible claims, especially if the kids corroborate, you wouldn’t keep the kids away from the father? I agree that charges should be pressed when the claims turn out to be false, but until then what do you do? The safety of the kids has to come first, no?August 27, 2014 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1032123☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Sam, these two issues are similar in that the individual case has to be weighed against precedent. If we allow a woman to ask for and receive a get at whim (same with a man giving one), we support making marriage disposable. Yet, the individual case is served better by allowing it.
Same with charges of abuse. Of course, better safe than sorry, but we risk allowing charges of abuse being indiscriminately used as a bargaining chip or tool for revenge, as it has been used.
There’s no easy answer here.August 27, 2014 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1032124
1) The claims are rarely plausible. They are considered “plausible” simply because the mother makes them. The “system” is required, even if the mother is not believed, to take all precautionary steps. The facts are that even when the judges who hear these accusations consider them frivolous, they are forced to order visitations either suspended or allowed only under supervision. One of the challenges is that the mother withheld making these accusations before the divorce process began. If there was truly a risk to the children, why has she failed to protect them from this “threat”?
2) Unquestionably, the safety of anyone deserves no compromise. Erring on the side of caution is reasonable. The tough part is that there is no history of such false accusations, whether about abuse of the children, or domestic violence (where there is a huge percentage of falsehood) being prosecuted for false police reports, etc. in NYS. This is actually dangerous, because the system becomes a weapon that can be used with impunity. So the poor guy who loses his kids, job, and a fortune in legal fees over false accusations can get a response like, “Whoops, I’m sorry” from the lying spouse. That is a disaster.August 27, 2014 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1032125BarryLS1Participant
Francorachel3: I have seen children who were molested and you can tell there is a problem. Their whole demeanor is different.
I know the family involved and I know the lawyer. She recommends often that the wife make that accusation. It was hardly the first time. Also, in private, the wife admitted as such. She couldn’t recant because she made the accusation under oath and could be charged with perjury.
This woman lawyer went through a nasty divorce herself and plays very dirty. It’s common knowledge among many people in that community. People are falsely accused all the time. I have no sympathy for molesters. They should be locked up and the key thrown away.August 27, 2014 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1032127zahavasdadParticipant
Does anyone really think the recent cases that have gone to the Media because the husband refused a get was a “Kiddush Hashem”?
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