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Baruch Hashem, today we have plenty of ways of clothing our bodies without killing lions.
It’s not a heter for sha’as had’chak. It’s not achzarius if there’s a purpose for normal human needs. It would be okay nowadays too, if there was a need for lion hides.
But there isn’t a need for them. And if there was wild lions would quickly become completely extinct the way things are going. And if they could kill them for a valid need it should be done most efficiently, not allowing them to slowly die over an entire week.
~I’m glad we all agree now that outrage was warranted for killing Cecil in that fashion.~
The End
lol
It’s not a heter for sha’as had’chak. It’s not achzarius if there’s a purpose for normal human needs. It would be okay nowadays too, if there was a need for lion hides.
+1
I would take a step further that if you WANT the hide, and that’s your purpose it’s fine also. So if you want to go to Alaska and get a permit to hunt a bison so that you can make a buffalo robe, that’s fine. The teshuva says that it depends what your main purpose is; so you can’t just say “I’ll hunt for fun and give the meat to a soup kitchen” because G-d knows why you’re hunting.
Why would you legitimately want hide today? There is a huge surplus of clothing to choose from.
Why would you hunt for it when we can capture the animals easily today and can kill the animal painlessly.
What’s the difference between hunting and fishing for pleasure? How about catch and release?
This dentist paid over 50,000 to kill a well known lion that people were attached to and was being studied remotely in Oxford.
The proud lion, after being lured out of the nature preserve, was was shot with a crossbow.
Now wounded and in agonizing pain, not knowing why, the lion fled into the woods for 2 days struggling for survival. After trying to stay alive for 2 days it was shot. The lion was then beheaded and its head was mounted on a wall.
Why should there be a difference? Fishing with the intent to discard the fish unused would be wrong.
Why would you legitimately want hide today? There is a huge surplus of clothing to choose from.
Why would you hunt for it when we can capture the animals easily today and can kill the animal painlessly.
You have a question why I want a fur if I can wear polyester? Because I like it.
And tell me please about all the methods available for me to get a lion skin.
Why should there be a difference? Fishing with the intent to discard the fish unused would be wrong.
It’s what the noda b’yehuda says. The theory is that we’re talking about a hargasha you should have of not killing animals for fun. If your intent is for fun, that’s what is wrong. If your intent is not for fun, that is ok. It doesn’t matter what you actually do with the animal–it’s about your intent.
Why would you legitimately want hide today?
Who cares? We’re not discussing fashion, we’re discussing hashkafah.
Because you get what you legitimately need for parnasa in the way that causes a minimum amount of pain to the animal. Certainly, it is wrong to hunt a lion with a crossbow and torture it, when you can tranquilize it and kill it painlessly.
And in this case, the guy was killing it to put his head on his wall.
Additionally, you mentioned permits.
If the king or in our case the people decides it is illegal to kill lions at all, because they value Hashem’s creations and know beautiful and exotic animals face extinction, or because collectively we feel earning money is not a legitimate reason to kill these creatures, they can make killing them illegal.
Thats why you can’t get a permit and go kill whatever you want.
If the animals benefit the public or kingdom in anyway they certainly can make it illegal to kill them even for parnasa.
newbee: I’m not sure where you’re getting your ideas from, but it’s definitely not from the noda b’yehuda. Are there other primary sources on the topic we should know about? (rando essays not included)
popa_bar_abba, I have no more energy for trolls today.
I am going to set a troll trap for you. Hunting or not.
Shoo, get out of here troll, shoo shoo.
Sam2, if you’re still following this retarded thread:
I assume you are referring to Rav Lichtenstein’s article that asks if there is a morality outside the Torah. IIRC correctly, the article proceeds along the lines that we are supposed to do things that are moral and correct even if not prescribed or proscribed by the Torah directly. A good example is the noda b’yehuda on hunting–the Torah doesn’t prohibit it, but it is inappropriate to be an achzar.
IIRC, he concludes by saying that, is there a morality outside the Torah? Who cares, so say that this IS part of the Torah.
This is basically the argument of Wittgenstein in Philosophical Investigations. Everyone agrees that Hashem wants us to do tov and yashar, and that the shuras hadin of halacha does not encompass every tov and yashar that a person can do in life. (Why doesn’t it? Different discussion). Arguing over whether that is outside or inside the Torah is just arguing about the meaning of words.
PBA: Yes, that’s what I was going for. So hunting for fun is a bad thing and should be avoided, even if not prohibited.
“Sam2, if you’re still following this retarded thread”
Seems like you have a lot invested in this “retarded thread”. I think your continual sarcasm is a passive-aggressive way of putting down others who actually care about animal cruelty.
Anyway, I’m not sure where you’re getting your ideas from why you don’t think this prolonged needless death of the lion is immoral.
Its certainly not from the Torah, which apposes cruelty to animals.
newbee: Nah, that’s just who Popa is.
Newbee has a point here. The Torah mandates shchitah for killing animals and fowl, and the blade must be sharp for a quick cut. Prolonging the death of the lion is exactly the opposite.
I’ll also repeat my question regarding any difference between hunting and fishing for sport, as shchitah isn’t required for fish, and I think that has something to do with fish not feeling pain, but I could be wrong.
However, if the concern is our own sensitivities not being dulled, it makes sense not to recommend fishing for pleasure either.
Talking about dulling our sensitivities reminded me of the “What’s Wrong with What’sApp” thread, where I mentioned that some video clips do just that by showing other people’s embarrassing moments, even if they aren’t showing anything explicit.
“Nah, that’s just who Popa is.”
Well, you know him better than I do.
“What do you think people should be more be more outraged about”
It goes without saying people should be more outraged about the ISIS atrocities. Their brutality is unbearable. But its the same type of person usually who will be outraged by ISIS beheadings as, lehavdeel, the torturous killing of a lion. And its the same type of person who won’t really be bothered by ISIS who won’t really be bothered by the torture of a lion.
Do you think ISIS fighters were at all bothered by what happened to the Cecil the lion?
-Cruelty and desensitization begets more cruelty and desensitization
“Newbee has a point here.”
Thank you. I don’t get why some people are against being outraged over animal cruelty.
Regarding fish, you can ask the same thing about bugs. While you shouldn’t kill a fish and “torture” it for no reason, certain animals register pain differently. Those with higher mental abilities register pain more.
If you ever stepped on a dog’s tail for instance by accident and saw the dog stop smiling and start crying you can tell is feels pain.
Talking about lions and eagles and hunting. Times are different today, these species are now or have been endangered. Think about if these species would have been killed off from the beginning, how many metaphors and lessons would have been lost from Tanach and gemara?
Ill mention one:
Be bold as a leopard, light as an eagle, swift as a deer, and strong as a lion le’asos ratzon avicha bashamayim.
newbee,
Thank you. I don’t get why some people are against being outraged over animal cruelty.
I agree that what the dentist did was wrong and cruel. What I am against, however, is:
1. The use of “outrage” as a cover by some to exhibit their own cruelty – through social media shaming, death threats, and harassment.
2. The equation or even elevation of animal life over human life.
newbee,
Lions practice infanticide. If a challenging male succeeds in ousting or killing the head of a pride (e.g., by scratching, biting and wounding – oh the torture of it all!), subsequently he usually will kill the original male’s innocent cubs in a cold blooded, inhumane manner. Does this outrage you?
One more question. You’ve stated or implied several times in this thread that Cecil was “tortured for a week”, like the dentist put him on the rack or something to make him talk. Yet in reality the lion was hit with an arrow, disappeared into the forest, and was found and shot 2 days later. Cruel? Yes. Torture for a week? No. Why the mischaracterization?
“I agree that what the dentist did was wrong and cruel.”
Nothing wrong with shaming and boycotting someone who has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over his life doing “wrong and cruel” things.
Death threats- that goes way too far.
newbee,
Nothing wrong with shaming
Yes there is, especially when it explodes to a completely hysterical, disproportionate global scale. When it becomes not even about what the dentist did per se, but about others asserting their chest-thumping moral superiority and venting their own cruel impulses. And when it leads to destruction of property and outright harassment. I’m surprised that you get so bothered by what the dentist did, but condone shaming, which is one of the cruelest human practices, and is the root of crimes such as honor killings, witch burnings, and causes suicides.
So let me get this straight.
The torah did not assur it. The noda b’yehuda thinks it is a good hargasha that a yid should have, at most. So if someone doesn’t do it, you can destroy their livelihood and their life.
How do you get these ideas? Do you like write random words on pieces of paper and pull them out of a barrel and string them together into ideas and then just believe in them?
Shoo, get out of here troll, shoo shoo.
Avram in MD, I’m surprised that you called what the dentist did wrong and cruel and then say people cant point out that its wrong and cruel.
I will say publicly condemned instead of shamed, if that makes you feel better.
Behaviors that are bad and cruel (as YOU said they were) and lead to the further endangerment of species SHOULD be publicly condemned.
In other words, you don’t have a basis for your hashkafos other than your boich.
newbee,
I’m surprised that you called what the dentist did wrong and cruel and then say people cant point out that its wrong and cruel.
I certainly would not call the dentist’s experience as simply people pointing out that it’s wrong and cruel.
I will say publicly condemned instead of shamed, if that makes you feel better.
Then you would be wrong, because what happened to the dentist was far more than public condemnation of his behavior.
Behaviors that are bad and cruel (as YOU said they were) and lead to the further endangerment of species SHOULD be publicly condemned.
I agree, except that was not what happened to the dentist. And you’re conflating species conservation with animal cruelty – two very separate issues. Would you be less “outraged” if he had hunted a basset hound?
In other words, you don’t have a basis for your hashkafos other than your boich.
You don’t like my boich alternative with the random words in a barrel?
In other words, you don’t have a basis for your hashkafos other than your boich.
You don’t like my boich alternative with the random words in a barrel?
I actually have no idea where he gets his hashkafos from, but I had to post something, so I put random letters in a barrel, and the word b-o-i-c-h came out. So I posted that.
I actually have no idea where he gets his hashkafos from, but I had to post something, so I put random letters in a barrel, and the word b-o-i-c-h came out. So I posted that.
Interesting method. I did the gaon’s goral with a shas bavli and landed on the case where you are korei shem on teruma and maaser on part of a barrel, and then this was the best I could interpret it.
I used to be much better at the gaon’s goral. See my published works.
~My hashkafos come the Torah and common sense.
~ As for the millions of people throughout the world who were outraged by this AND his patients who willingly chose not to use him as a dentist, well I guess they are too dumb to see how smart you are.
~No Im not confusing anything both animal cruelty and species conservation are driving factors. Yes I personally would have been less upset if a less vulnerable and less intelligent species such as a deer would have been hunted.
(PS, kindly change my subtitle back)
Mods, you can disagree with whatever you want, but is it policy here to change ones subtitle to a disparaging name?
This is the second time this has happened over a heated thread.
You have the option to close the thread and disagree with me, but when you change my name it applies to every other post I have written.
I would have settled for Hunter of Trolls, but this is just as good. thank you
I actually considered that but didn’t know if you would be okay with it
“I actually considered that but didn’t know if you would be okay with it”
lol go for it
“do you agree that anybody who is more outraged over the killing of a lion than over the actions of ISIS (for example) has a serious lack of moral clarity?”
Yes for sure, such people have skewed priorities. ISIS bothers me to no end and I was traumatized by the things I have seen. I am so outraged how not enough is being done I try not to think about it because there is nothing I can do about it anyway.
How about people who speak lashon hara, or talk during leining, which is actually assur?
chotch you could boycott them and try to convince other people to boycott them, and don’t let your kids be friends with their kids.
There’s an article today about an elephant who was shot by poachers, and came to a lodge to ask for help. They flew in a vet, and tranquilized the elephant to work on it.
Note that it took 7 minutes after they tranquilized the elephant before it went down.
And that’s why they didn’t tranquilize the gorilla.
newbee,
As for the millions of people throughout the world who were outraged by this AND his patients who willingly chose not to use him as a dentist, well I guess they are too dumb to see how smart you are.
I never said or implied that anyone upset by the killing of the lion is dumb. And on the contrary, if I found out that my dentist had a cruel streak, I’d probably seek another dentist myself.
My comments have primarily been directed at the venting of cruelty under the guise of protesting cruelty. Examples: one of the heads of PETA declared that the dentist should be hanged. The dentist’s children have received death threats. And I’ve commented on the extreme extent of the reaction – it seems rather disproportionate. And finally, I’ve commented when I perceived there to be mischaracterizations of what actually occurred, e.g., you claimed multiple times that the dentist tortured the lion for a week. Not once have I commented on intelligence, mine or anyone else’s.
Nah, they’d just be outraged that Israel is using an endangered species as shields. It’s perfectly acceptable for Hamas to use Homo Sapiens as shields of course. Humans are not currently considered to be in danger of extinction.
Somebody told me over Shabbos…
During leining?
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