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From another thread concerning wages a man earns:
so if he earns $1000 a week at work, he (and she) owns the full $1000; not just $500. so he made a “kinyan” on the full funds and he has full rights to the full funds
In these days of direct deposit, where one receives neither cash nor a paycheck*, and nothing physical is transferred anywhere (i.e. it’s not like my employer sends a stack of bills to my bank), can a man truly be said to have made a kinyan?
The Wolf
* Yes, I know you may get one. If so, I guess this doesn’t apply to you.
Probably not.
What is this relevant to?
Your point about today’s finances being run differently is fascinating; we can discuss the halachic status of a check just as easily. Is it considered money, or a “shtar”? Very relevant in halacha!
They still give you a printed receipt. (at least mine do) Might that count?
Good point. I would think the pay-stub would in fact count as a kinyan. Kind of like when the Choson makes a kinyan at the Kabolas Ponim.
A check is a Shtar, exactly like it was in the time of the gemorah, when someone wrote “Harei Ani Chayav” in a Shtar and it was valid.
The Halachic status of a bank account in general is interesting. L’cheora the money in the account is on loan to the bank (since it can use the funds as they wish, within reason & the law). Adding money to a loan doesn’t require a kinyan per say.
The money is owed to the poel for his/her work. By agreeing to transfer that “loan” over to the bank by all of the parties involved, and giving the use of the money to the bank, the bank is now responsible for the loan to the poel, and the employer is no longer responsible for the loan.
In short, I would think (but in no way am I a posek) the kinyan is not required, and the shibud transfers from the employer to tha bank (possibly due to a Rav Nosson type arrangement).
A Pay stub can not act as a kinyan. It is not a Kli.
When you sell your chummetz for pessach they have you pick up a pen to make a kinyan, how is the pay recept and less valid? I don’t know I’m just asking questions.
I think it’s clearly a sh’tar, for two reasons:
1. You can’t spend it.
2. It’s clearly a document instructing your document to pay the named person the specified amount.
The Wolf
I would think so too, but apparently, it’s not so simple, because point #1 is not so simple – checks can sometimes be passed from person to person until finally cashed.
My BIL had a shaila – a check he issued, for several hundred dollars, was never cashed. The person he gave it to said he passed it along. He was told (IIRC) that there’s nothing to do about it because the person he gave it to used it as $ so deserves no compensation, and anyone who subsequently received it would need to contact him (my BIL).
When you sell your chummetz for pessach they have you pick up a pen to make a kinyan, how is the pay recept and less valid? I don’t know I’m just asking questions.
A Pen is a Kli.
Gavra has it right. A Kinyan is required to solidify a sale. Until the Kinyan is made anyone could back out of the deal. However, if you owe someone money, you can’t change that. You are merely letting the bank know that part of the money they are Meshubad to give you will now be due your friend. The only question that remains is if I put none into someone’s account as a gift, can I back out?
I meant to write, if you put money into someone’s account.
Now that I thought about it, it seems that it could work as a Mechila. The bank owes you money. You tell them to owe it to someone else, in stead.
HaLeiVi: If there is no pre-existing shibud, wouldn’t you need Mammad Shlashtan?
Work creates a shibud. It is not a “sale” in technical terms (excepting Uman Koneh Shevach Kli and the sort). In fact, the shibud exists even if the employer did not tell the worker to work for him (see Bava Metzia 101a).
If someone works for you, you owe him money. If someone sells you an item, you owe him money. An item is not sold to until you are Koneh it, for there is nothing solid about the fact that it transferred for him to you. This can not apply to work that was actually done.
The bank owes you money, since you have them your money. There is nothing in particular that is Meshubad to you, just a debt. It is possible to let the Loveh pay someone else. The only thing is that in that case you are probably able to back out. Perhaps you can apply the famous Ketzos that Hoda’a is also a Kinyan. In that case, when you tell the bank to transfer money you are being Modeh that you owe money.
Perhaps you can apply the famous Ketzos that Hoda’a is also a Kinyan.
I do not want to go there. I would even rather say that the hishtamshus of the loan has a din of Kesef (similar to an old style gold/silver dollar bill?), and the transfer even within the system is a Maas’e Nesina (which is plausable), and the “Kinyan” is done similar to the gemorah Gittin 13B:
??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????
I.E. part of the loan to the bank is that the bank can transfer the money to others at your discretion. (a much more “ba’al Habatish answer).
It makes sense, but it’s sort of a new kind of Kinyan. If I understand correctly, you’re saying that there is a Gomar Umakne, being that you know that the bank will give it to him. Perhaps you can apply Dina Demalchusa that considers this a done deal.
It makes sense, but it’s sort of a new kind of Kinyan. If I understand correctly, you’re saying that there is a Gomar Umakne, being that you know that the bank will give it to him. Perhaps you can apply Dina Demalchusa that considers this a done deal.
1: Naasis is NOT Gamar U’Makni, it is a presumption that your intent is as such at the time you gave it to the bank (which is not far fetched)
2: Dina D’Malchusa between two yidden (employee & employer) opens up its own can of worms (although the bank has its own regulations to which DD will apply). Could work.
Wolf: Baruch T’hiye
As I understand it a check is a specific kind of shtar mentioned in the gemara. IIRC there is a case in the first perek of Bava Metzia where someone writes to the chenv’ni to pay xyz to his creditor. That case is the etzem metzius of a check — pay ot the order of ploni.
Paychecks might complicate things because direct deposit creates issues of shibuda d’rav nasan, but at the end of the day, the employee is the “levi” figure in the shibud.
What about a gift?
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