April 16, 2015 12:39 am at 12:39 am #1075121mw13Participant
My pessimistic prediction:
Many Rabbonim will mattir this invention. More will assur it. There will be a massive tummult as to who holds what, and who we can and should follow. Some segments of Jewry will adopt this as standard practice, while many more will eschew it. And once again, an invention meant to bridge divides will result in ever higher walls of separation, with each side blaming the other for being unreasonable.
I just hope that one somewhat unified psak can be given, and all that agony can be avoided.April 16, 2015 2:03 am at 2:03 am #1075122
mw13: This has been around for years. It isn’t new. Why would there be a tumult now when the rabbonim already paskened this years ago? At least four years.April 16, 2015 2:29 am at 2:29 am #1075123apushatayidParticipant
Regarding Rav Moshe zl, turning off a gas oven on yom to and zilzul. 23 years ago I asked my Rav for practical guidance on proper stove and oven use before the first chag my wife and i spent in our apartment as a married couple. He told me point blank that rav moshe held that if it was “litzorech the food” I could even completely turn off the fire. With that he added that I should not tell others who might be a bit “loose” with the psak and do kibuy for no reason. In fact he said that Rav Moshe instructed that the psak not be widely disseminated for this reason. I mention it here because someone already spoke out the psak here, my pint is that contrary to that persons assertion Rav Moshe was very much concerned with zilzul yom to.April 16, 2015 2:34 am at 2:34 am #1075124mw13Participant
Joseph, while they have been working on it for years, the product is still not available for purchase.April 16, 2015 2:50 am at 2:50 am #1075125
Daas, in this case. But I hear the delay business being pushed in other inventions, like the electric delay scooter, for example. I think the Shabbos app I’d based on the same notion.April 16, 2015 2:54 am at 2:54 am #1075126
Apushatayid, now that you mention Kibui, I was wondering recently why Kibui would apply to a gas flame in the first place. Doesn’t the Gemara describe Kibui as Osse Pecham?April 16, 2015 3:13 am at 3:13 am #1075127
Besalel, Personally, I would take anything tzomet says about a direct competitor with a grain of salt.
That’s a fair point – they do have negius. Obviously, the inventor of this product has negius as well, and anything he says should also be taken with a grain of salt.April 16, 2015 3:17 am at 3:17 am #1075128
I was talking about this case. I don’t know how the scooter works. The app is a joke, as I’ve said before. The switch is a much more serious invention, and may actually have some legitimate use, just not l’chatchilah.April 16, 2015 4:44 am at 4:44 am #1075129April 16, 2015 4:53 am at 4:53 am #1075130
Rav Moshe’s psak was not a secret and had nothing to do with zilzul or food. It was concerning the definition of kibui, i.e, the difference between smothering and withholding fuel.April 16, 2015 5:11 am at 5:11 am #1075131newbeeMember
What if I stain my shirt friday night? Can i throw it in the washing machine/dryer with this type of device, and have it ready by shabbos morning? can i use it to turn the air conditioner on and off? can i use it to grind up coffee grinds and to brew a nice cup of coffee in the morning? can i use it to turn my digital photo album on and off?April 16, 2015 5:29 am at 5:29 am #1075132–Participant
I don’t know how the scooter works.
In Shabbos mode there is a resistor across the throttle so it never goes down to 0. A full stop is done by turning the steering wheel sideways. Switching between forward reverse and off uses a groma switch.April 16, 2015 9:48 am at 9:48 am #1075133
Rav Moshe only allowed a timer for lights since the timer takes the place of the goy and traditionally goyim lit the lamps for yidden on Shabbos so that they would not have to be in the dark. This is why candles are lit erev shabbos; for shalom bayis.April 16, 2015 11:14 am at 11:14 am #1075134
Cherrybim, source?April 16, 2015 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #1075135
DY, your smart and this is not a hard one. With a little effort, you can find the sources. If I have time when I get home tonight, I’ll look it up for you; othewise, next week b’n.April 16, 2015 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1075136
I’ll look it up also, if I have time. I have seen R’ Moshe’s teshuvah on it (years ago), I just don’t recall that part of the equation, and I was wondering if it’s something you heard which may not have a written teshuvah.April 16, 2015 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1075137
You are correct. I would add that the goy lit the lamps only l’tzorech gadol, and that it was not universally accepted, but he does say that it was common enough to take care of zilusa. Here is the teshuvah:
He would still asser the Kosher Switch.April 16, 2015 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1075138
Thanks for the lookup. I don’t think I would have gotten to it. I did get a lot of flack several years ago when the flame discussion came up and I provided the sources at that time.
I was not advocating the kosher switch, just opening the discussion to show the flip side. But I wonder how it felt to those who first used the Brooklyn eruv knowing that Rav Moshe opposed it. Even if it was ok, like eating kosher chazir?
But now it is more or less tolerated.
And what about zilzul Pesach with the myriads of products that resemble chometz,i.e. pizza and macaroni?
And leaving our homes for luxury hotels..afterall, top Rabbonim and Rosh Yeshivas are on the marquis. What’s the message to those who can not afford it?
And the latest thing is leaving your shul and Rav and renting beach houses in Florida for Pesach. My goodness! This is not Zilzul of the Yom Tov?April 17, 2015 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1075139
I’m not in favor of unfettered chasing after gashmiyus, but I don’t know that, as distasteful as renting a beach house or Pesach macaroni may be, they’re a zilzul of Yom Tov per se. Are macaroons and potato starch cakes also a zilzul of Yom Tov? Somehow, I think melacha imitations are worse than food imitations; to me the issue is that we can’t seem to live eight days without certain foods, but it’s more of a nivul birshus haTorah issue than zilusa.April 17, 2015 1:21 am at 1:21 am #1075140lesschumrasParticipant
Cherrybim, what is the message is to those who can’t afford a fancy esrog holder, silver bechers, expensive streimels and sheitels?
Eating food imitations may be a zilzul to you but provide enjoyment to others. No one forces you to eat them.April 17, 2015 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1075141golferParticipant
Cherrybim, I’m surprised you didn’t mention too long sheitels and texting during chazaras hashatz.
Zilzul Shabbos is a concept that has a direct effect on whether an action is considered Chillul Shabbos.
Let’s not mix apples, oranges and zebras.April 17, 2015 1:45 am at 1:45 am #1075142frumgirl93Member
Jewish Maidel: You’ve been awfully quiet since you started this topic… with all this discussion, I hope you find an answer that is helpful to you!April 17, 2015 2:35 am at 2:35 am #1075143nishtdayngesheftParticipant
So apparently R Yair Hoffman read this thread to write his article.April 17, 2015 3:32 am at 3:32 am #1075144
nishtdayngesheft: How did you make that conclusion?April 17, 2015 4:34 am at 4:34 am #1075145yehudayonaParticipant
Besalel, if you’re just concerned about accidentally or absent-mindedly flipping a switch, why not just get a switch cover?April 17, 2015 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1075146
Like other things, Zilzul seems to us like an undefined entity and based on emotion. But from Reb Moshe’s Teshuva it looks like he had a clear Hagdarah. In this case I think it is clear to anyone.
What you get is a ‘somehow kosher’ way to do whatever was Assur yesterday. There is no difference to the outside observer between one and the other. It is clear even from advocate right here that they don’t really grasp what’s behind it. It’s just a Melacha become Muttar.April 17, 2015 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1075147
Actually, R’ Moshe’s hagdarah is very much tied to subjective perceptions.
Using a Shabbos clock for lights is not inherently different based on historical usage of nochrim, but it’s perception as a chillul of Shabbos is.
Rav Moshe might today be mattir a/c through a timer. It’s wide acceptance may remove its status as a zilzul. The inventor of this switch is hoping (and was predicting to potential investors) that this will happen with this switch, but I don’t think a melacha caused by our actions on Shabbos could ever not be considered a zilzul.April 17, 2015 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1075148
Even while Rav Moshe’s s’varah for allowing gas to be turned OFF totally on Yom Tov (and thereby the flame is gone), should also apply to Shabbos; he was never matir to do it on Shabbos.
In addition, we have no Rav Moshe today in the global sense that if he said the Kosher-Switch was permitted, Poskim/Rabbonim would pay attention.
It wasn’t that long ago when recognized Poskim mistakenly paskined that using electric appliances on Yom Tov was allowed (fire-aish was in the wires they believed) and indeed large populations of yidden (including Chasidim) followed this Psak. So here we have a precedent for Yom Tov use of the Kosher Switch for lights and appliances.April 17, 2015 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1075149🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
cherrybim- for me the message in pesach hotels, being as I can’t afford it myself, is that some people have more money than me. Since they can afford it, why should they not go? If I feel jealous, maybe I need to work on myself a little. Or maybe I should get a job to earn the money to go myself.April 17, 2015 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1075150
cherrybim: without getting involved in the actual halachic discussion on this newfangled item, I must point out that when you write “recognized Poskim mistakenly paskined using electric appliances on yom tov” is incorrect. Those Poskim still would maintain that electricity would be muttar to use on yom tov. No mistake on their part. However, the “olam’ has accepted differently. Puk mo amo diber. But it does not make the more lenient psak “a mistake”.April 17, 2015 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1075151
ROB, do you think they would still believe that there is “fire” in the wires, or was it their mistaken belief concerning this fact?
??? ???? ??????April 17, 2015 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1075152
cherrybim:you are contradicting yourself. If there is no fire-aish ,then why is it ossur on shabbos?
actually, all of the reasons given for the issur of creating electric waves on shabbos -boneh,mevashel,mavir- are the reasons why it should be muttar on yom tov! in actuality, it is not totally clear why electric waves would be ossur on shabbos but, again, puk mo mo diber.April 17, 2015 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1075153
???? would not be muttar on ??”? (I don’t think most hold like the ???”? anyhow), nor would ???? ???.April 17, 2015 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #1075154nishtdayngesheftParticipant
It would not be muttar on Yom Tov since you are creating a new fire. Not lighting from an existing fire.April 17, 2015 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1075155
DaasYochid: See tosfos shabbos 95, “Ve-hurode chalos”, and the maskonoh of tosfos on boneh in yom tov. And, if you don’t hold like the Chazon Ish on that, then the other alternatives-mavir and mevashel- are even easier to me mattir on yom tov. As far as “Tikun maneh”- what are you fixing?? (At least boneh means that you complete a circuit but there is no “maneh”here -utensil to fix).
Nisht- thst is a big question. What new fire are you creating? the electric circuit and its many components already exist. I do know that this matter of “nolad” has been used to prohibit the forming of an electric circuit but it is very problematic to consider this “nolad”.
And what do you do for “ochel nefesh’if you have an electric stove?April 17, 2015 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #1075156HaMekubalMember
I (and I doubt most if not all) of the commentors on this thread are not qualified to judge on the permissibility of the Kosher Switch, as we lack both smicha in Shabat and shimush. Nor we can really know who said what, which Rav said what, since the whole issue is shwred into confusion, finger pointing and strife as it is unfortunately a pattern in discussions where there are interests and halacha.
However, even though we may not assume the KS is lechatehila, I believe it is desirable for a number of reasons:
1 – Most probably it would not be a problem if lighten up by a goy. If the lamp is fluorescent with no iron bulb inside, then it is even less of a problem, because hachraat haposkim is that such a lamp is Derabanan (we are talking, at the worst, about a shvut deshvut in a grama). You don’t have to hint or anything. You may directly ask to a Shabbos goy how exactly you want your lights in Shabat. There is no concern of zilzul, because obviously YOU don’t turn anything on-off. Remember that in Israel generally people don’t think about Shabat observance with amira lenochri in head, since it if often difficult to find a goy. Maybe this is relevant to not allowing it there, but how about in hutz laaretz?
In our Jewish community of Brazil, it is not uncommon to have housemaids in Shabat. With KS the issue of asking her to lighting lamps is over: no hinting and time-wasting, lechatehila.
2- Elderly people, kids, etc etc. as someone pointed above.
3- If you mistakenly switch the light on/off, you don’t do any hilul Shabat beshogeg;
4- For people starting their observance through Kiruv, especially if their families object leaving the lights on the whole day;
5- Not-so observant (traditional) people who don’t mind turning lights on/off albeit they know it’s no good, but from the other side if told that they could keep more of Shabat just installing a switch, would prefer to do so.
Again, I’m not defending it lechatehila for everyone as I’m not a posek. But shouldn’t we welcome the invention as it can prevent sins and make Shabat observance better, for a wide range of people?
Thank you and Shabat Shalom!April 17, 2015 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #1075157lesschumrasParticipant
In Rav Moshe’s time, stoves had pilot lights that were on all the time. So, when you “turned on” a burner, all you were doing was drawing an existing flame into the jet, not creating a new fire.April 17, 2015 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1075158
lesschumros: I agree this is how gas burners were-even today BTW- and why one could shut off the gas because the pilot light remained on, but what is your point? How does this trnaslate into the discussion of electric currents and ,even more, on the kosher switch?April 19, 2015 4:53 am at 4:53 am #1075159
Rav Moshe’s shita for turning OFF the gas has nothing to do with a pilot light. However a pilot light enabled one to turn on a gas range on Yom Tov.April 19, 2015 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1075160
See tosfos shabbos 95, “Ve-hurode chalos”, and the maskonoh of tosfos on boneh in yom tov.
We don’t pasken from Tosafos, we pasken from Shulchan Aruch. If you want to see a definitive, clear psak on electricity on Shabbos and Yom Tov, look at Shmiras Shabbos K’hilchoso, at the beginning of chapter 13, where he says that the vast majority of poskim asser electricity on both Shabbos and Yom Tov.
This has been the universally accepted psak for many years.April 19, 2015 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #1075161
I haven’t read this thread at all, so if my questions have been addressed, please link to the relevant post:
a) What use is the random-factor, if it is a certainty that one pulse will connect? It must be mathematically guaranteed to turn the light on, or else it wouldn’t sell. If so, does it make any difference at all that some pulses won’t go through?
b) Granted that it is muttar – Can we discuss (preferably with Halachic/Hashkafic sources from previous generations) exactly what the problem would be with using such technology? People are talking about the “spirit of Shabbos” and the “sanctity”: Does “spirit” have any place in Yiddishkeit?
Disclaimer: I know nothing about Hilchos Shabbos; I am not presenting an opinion, merely questioning.April 19, 2015 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1075162halbsauerMember
The Kosher Switch was invented be Lavan.April 19, 2015 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1075163maranMember
Great invention! I also have pending patents that will make us forget our Jewish life style and will finally let us live us goyim without doing any avierah. Here are some of them:
– Kosher Chutzpa: Hit your Father and split on your Mother without passing over Kivud Av vaEm.
– Kosher Big Mac: A device that avoid the punishment of Kares and let you celebrate the Pesach Sedarim in Mac Donalds (you will be able to lean toward your right side)
– Kosher Gyrosknife: will open a whole on your head, so you will wear your yarmulke under your hair. No more Yarmulke falling on the floor.
– Kosher Siccors: Finally, cut your hair during Shabbos, Yom Tov, Chol Hamoed and Omer !!! Watch the video on you tube with the approval of all the barbers of Boro Park and Monsey, even the cashiers agree!!!
– The Non Plus Ultra Invention: Kosher Geula: Forget about Yerushalayim, it is too far!, this device let you rebuild the third Bais Hamikdash in Manhattan bimhera biyameinu !!!April 19, 2015 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1075164
Yekke, indeed. Randomness of that type will only have the benefit of avoiding an Hasroas Vadai. If allowing water to flow is a Gramma does it make a difference of I know how far up the road the water is now?
Your second point was addressed. Look at the Teshuva from Reb Moshe, links to above.April 19, 2015 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1075165
Maran – It’s very nice to use the sarcastic tone, but it doesn’t address the issue: What exactly is the problem with doing things Hashem didn’t asser? Everybody (well, most frum people) sure feels that there is something wrong, but what is it really?April 19, 2015 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1075166
Yekke2, aside from the Igros Moshe mentioned, there are other sources as well. In one of the Shabbos App threads, the topic of zilzul Shabbos/uvdin d’chol came up, and I brought o couple, starting here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-shabbos-app-controversy/page/2#post-543925 .
Interestingly, earlier in that thread, Sam mentioned the switch (I think he meant the one discussed here). I responded that R’ Neuwirth had retracted (it turns out that it was a clarification; he never meant it l’chatchilah).April 19, 2015 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1075167
DaasYochid – I’m not looking for sources that there is such a thing as zilzul shabbos. I would look down on anybody who felt a need to make things muttar which were previously assur. I don’t like the whole attitude.
But once the technology is out there, and it is viable to install; granting that it is halachically permissibly (which is far from simple), why shouldn’t one use the technology because of the “spirit of Shabbos”? I wouldn’t use it, and I wouldn’t appreciate anybody else doing it. But I still can’t place my finger on the exact issue, and that bothers me.April 19, 2015 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1075168
Yekke2, you are making a mistake. If something is zilzul Shabbos, it is assur.April 19, 2015 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1075169
What categorizes something as zilzul shabbos? Why should it be considered a zilzul simply because it enables something that was once assur? At the end of the day, you are doing something which HKB”H didn’t asser; at what point does it become a zilzul?April 19, 2015 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #1075170
See Chazon Ish I mentioned previously. Here’s a link to it and the discussion on the CR:
As I mentioned regarding the app, and it’s true of the switch as well, these are not from the more subtle cases of zilzul Shabbos. These are obvious ones.
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