Kula-ization of Judaism.

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  • #1009834

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: I never watched, and it’s certainly not worth watching, but to quote a Rebbe of mine, “Some of their best scenes contain more Mussar than most S’farim written nowadays.”

    #1009835

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rabbiofberlin, I just wanted to point out that this was the thread in which we discussed toloim, and it’s still open.

    #1009836

    interjection
    Participant

    This is what I always do but after reading this thread I started to doubt myself. However, according to the cRc, this is how to check strawberries. Turns out halacha is a lot more simple than many make it out to be.

    #1009837

    Snagged
    Participant

    Another halocho that is ignored, when you come to shacharis late, you start davening from where the shul is up to, not from the beginning.

    #1009838

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Interjection, I’m curious if the CRC is more meikil on some strawberries than the four national hechsherim (who don’t specify that only those with an irregular shape need to be washed in soap) or if most strawberries are not sufficiently round and smooth, so they don’t mention it, but they are in agreement.

    #1009839

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Snagged, I’m not sure whether you’re trying to say the halacha or the mistake.

    #1009840

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid; thanks for the note about the thread! I did smile when reading “interjection”s post. This was exactly what I have been doing and have advocated on this thread! Well, at least, there are some other poskim who think in a similar way!

    #1009841

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: as an added note, my very erudite son told me that ,as far as strawberries go, there are “Piskei halocho” that go ( I quote him) :”min hakotzeh el hakotzeh”, in other words, “all over the place “! (see “interjection” in the name of the Crc). Please feel free to do whatever you feel comfortable with. May I add that my other son follows the “soap and rinse” way. (like shampoo?) But then ,he lives in Lakewood….

    #1009842

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rabbiofberlin,

    Can you please cite the specific source?

    #1009843

    charliehall
    Participant

    “In the days of heavy use of DDT and other pesticides”

    DDT was not used as an insecticide until the 1940s. What did people do before then?

    #1009844

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Charlie,

    They were either careful to only eat types of produce which were known not to be infested, and checked carefully those which were occasionally infested, or they ate bugs.

    #1009845

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: I am not sure about your question. “interjection” quoted the “cRc” (Chicago Bais Din) on what to do with (regular shaped) strawberries: cut off the top and rinse thoroughly. Address your question to the cRc!

    #1009846

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ROB, I think I might, but it’s four against one if it’s a machlokes.

    #1009847

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: As I said, do what you feel comfortable with. Numbers do not count in these days of no Sanhedrin.

    #1009848

    Snagged
    Participant

    The halocho is, join in where the kehillo is up to.

    #1009849

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I do not know how you can insist that washing strawberries with a wash that loosens up the bugs is a chumro when almost all in the know require it. And even the cRc requires rubbing when it is a smooth berry. They do require using a wah when it is not smooth. And, in my experience, most strawberries are not smooth. On the contrary, going against the majority if opinions is absolutely a kula.

    And certainly not one that you can apply as the general rule for strawberries done even the meikel opinion would require it for most cases.

    #1009850

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    nisht: please read the cRc description. Most strawberries are round and smooth and they advise water and cutting off the top,just as I have been saying on this thread.

    As far as kulos and chumros and halochos, the question remains, did they eat strawberries a hundred years ago, for example? and did they use soap? My whole argument on this post was based on the fact that today, we are doing things that were never required in previous times. Hence- the “chumro-ization” of yiddishkeit.

    #1009851

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I actually have the the cRc app on my phone so it is easy for me to look at.

    You left out the rubbing that is required. I don’t know why you insist that most strawberries are smooth. That certainly has not been my experience.

    I cannot answer for what they did a hundred years ago. Do you have any proof at all that frum people did eat steawberries? I don’t know. I do know that I remember my grandfather painstakingly checking vegetables. I not recall him ever eating strawberries.

    You have know idea if the crops today are in anyway similar to what they had a hundred years ago. The cultivating and breeding of crops may very well have led to crops that are more likely to have these smaller bugs than they did have years ago. People who don’t worry about the issue of tolaim would not be bothered by these thrips and therefore there would have no interest in developing crops that minimize thrips.

    #1009852

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    By the way, we do have more bugs now than there were in the recent past because there weren’t as many regulations on what pesticides were used.

    #1009853

    Logician
    Participant

    “Please feel free to do whatever you feel comfortable with.”

    No.

    Please do whatever your previously designated LOR tells you to do.

    The way frum Jews do.

    #1009854

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ROB, concerning your approach to halacha that one may do what they are comfortable with, see Chazon Ish Yoreh Deah 150, 1 and 4. I don’t know that anyone disagrees, certainly not to the basic approach, but this is a famous nareh makom.

    To summarize, you’re wrong. It’s not a hefker free-for-all once we don’t have a Sanhedrin.

    #1009855

    Sam2
    Participant

    For what it’s worth, some of the bugs in these plants are probably Muttar to eat anyway. I honestly don’t know if people have done enough research on where these bugs come from.

    #1009856

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: I never said it is a free-for-all. When I said to act ‘as you feel comfortable”. I meant to say that you can follow a Possek that you feel comfortable with-regardless of others. We have seen that numerous times in our age. Witness the whole ‘eiruv’ discussion on these pages(where you and i had comments), with two and more opposite sides. Witness the (old) discussion about cholov yisroel- or cholov stam-as some call it. I can quote you numerous other examples.At the end of the day “puk mo amo diber” is a valid position. I think that the discussion about the checking of “toloim” is a similar situation. The ones requiring very extensive checking have not made their case conclusively, thereby leaving room for more lenient views.

    #1009857

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, when we’re not sure. they’re assur, and I think it’s hard to know when it’s ????? ?????.

    #1009858

    Logician
    Participant

    I don’t really feel like re-reading this entire thread, so I’ll just assume I’m not remembering correctly:

    ROB, could you please refer me to the post where you quoted the authority who upheld your position, as opposed to the numerous ones I recall where you simply asserted your disbelief in the problem ?

    #1009859

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Logician:all you have to do is go back a few lines and see that the cRc advocates what I have been saying

    #1009860

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ROB, no, even the cRc is more particular than what you said. I don’t know what you do, but I don’t recall you mentioning:

    1) Rubbing the surface of the strawberries

    2) Rinsing under a strong stream of water

    3) Using detergent for the ones which are not round and smooth.

    Even if you do all of these things, you would have to give a valid reason to explain what gives you the right to follow the cRc as opposed to the majority opinion which is that detergent, at a minimum, is necessary. The fact that your instinct tells you that using detergent is outlandish does not qualify, IMO, as valid.

    If you have a legitimate posek, on whom you rely both l’kulah and l’chumrah, he did his own research, and you follow his method, that would be valid.

    #1009861

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ROB,

    ???

    If the inlet is shut, the water is no longer connected.

    #1009862

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    You wouldn’t even get enough water from the tap to akes suds for your strawberries.

    #1009863

    Logician
    Participant

    ROB –

    I would like to add that you may follow a posek despite his disagreeing with a majority, only if he’s YOUR posek.

    If your posek is doing that all the time, change poskim.

    I’m very glad for you that your posek allows your method. Oh wait – that’s right, you hasn’t been able to back up your position, the best you could do was reference the cRc site someone else posted, and doesn’t even agree with you fully.

    #1009864

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    To all posters: You all act as if halacha and tradition started when you came of age and it did not exist beforehand. The subject of this thread was the “kula-ization’ of judaism, to which I responded that it has become the “chumra-itazation” of yiddishkeit. I brought a number of examples -most of which no on contested- and we bogged down to a conversation of how to check strawberries. My contention has been that all the newfangled ways of extrme checking never existed in europe and only became fashionable in very recent years. That was my proof of the “chumra-itazation’ of yiddishkeit. Does anyone of you dispute that?

    You are entitled to do whatever you want to do and so am I and people who think like me. If I am wrong, then I will face that before the “bes din shel maaloh”. For now, I am confident that what I do is sufficient.

    #1009865

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I am not sure why you think it is more appropriate to feel slighted when says you are being overly meikel than when says you are being inappropriately machmir.

    And specifically when as an example you bring something which you are deriding which is in fact almost universally accepted as the basic standard and not a chumra.

    And you have no idea what they had done in Europe pre war, not whether the metzius was even remotely the same as now. (Different types of berries, different location, different bugs)

    #1009866

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Does anyone of you dispute that?

    The Pri Chodosh disputes that.

    #1009867

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: I asked about pre-war Europe. We discussed the Pri Chodosh and I told you that, indeed, he is machmir (also the Pri Toar)on some items. You are welcome to follow his example,as you are welcome to follow any of the present-dat machmirim. I asked whether any of you can dispute thet fact that in pre-war Europe (and afterwards) none of these chumros was practiced.

    Nisht-I don’t feel slighted at all- In general,I just don’t practice chumros. Remember Bais Hillel! That said, to say it is “universally accepted as the basic standard” is not supported by the facts, as all this “soap and rinse” stuff only emerged in the last few years. BTW- if we always follow your example, then we can never pasken anything reasonable today, because maybe it is different today! we haev a mesorah and that continues as it was!

    #1009868

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I asked whether any of you can dispute thet fact that in pre-war Europe

    I believe the Pri Chodosh lived before the war. 🙂

    Anyhow, hilchos toloim, as I pointed out, is the poorest example you could find for your point, because infestation differs from time to time and place to place.

    In fact, ironically, your stubborn insistence on maintaining standards below the minimum required by any reputable organization demonstrates the point of the OP far better than the examples he gave.

    #1009869

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: I do not know you but I have respected you throughout the discussions. This continues but we will have to disagree and live our lives as we understand. You think it is a minimum standard , I think it is a chumro. (The cRc opinion shows that it is a valid opinion and so is my own observation).

    The Pri Chodosh has his views but,obviously, not all acharonim in Europe necessarily follow his rulings.

    May I reiterate that I fully endorse checking fruits and vegetables- it is the degree of checking that I question.

    #1009870

    Health
    Participant

    ROB – “To all posters: You all act as if halacha and tradition started when you came of age and it did not exist beforehand. The subject of this thread was the “kula-ization’ of judaism, to which I responded that it has become the “chumra-itazation” of yiddishkeit.”

    I’ve posted this previously – that I find many in our generation that “Chopp” up the “Kulous” -i.e. keep the “Toful”, but forget

    about the “Ikkar”!

    #1009871

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Dayan Lopian zt”l used to say – “It is easier to be machmir than it is to know what you are talking about”, vdo”k.

    The Chazon Ish would say over a story about a guy who walked around with glasses that had no lenses. When people would question him, he would say “Well, it can’t hurt.” He was right, it couldn’t hurt. But it didnt help a stitch either. The Chazon Ish said this about many Chumros.

    #1009872

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Can I ask why you brought Beis Hillel into this? They have no say in checking strawberries.

    #1009873

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    HaLeivi: this is an old thread but ,as you just asked a question mainly addressed to me, let me answer it. I quoted Bais Hillel as an example- nay, the norm in halacha actually- that a “kuloh’ is preferable to a ‘chumro”. : ” koach de-heteira odif”

    #1009874

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    But that’s backward. Koach Deheteira means that if you were Meikel then you were obviously really sure of your opinion. Beis Hillel held what they held because that is the conclusion they came to, not because they were looking to be Meikel. Their Kula in Tuma is a Chumra in Treifos. Was it a flip of a coin which one they’ll be Meikil on?

    #1009875

    emeslaamito
    Participant

    (men and wmen on opposite sides of the street?…)

    In Kelm, men and women walked on opposite sides of the street.

    #1009876

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    HaLeiv; this is an old thread and I am not going to re-hash the whole thread. However, the original title was “kula-ization”of Judaism to which I responded that we are not at “chumra-ization” of Judaims. Nothing you say about Bais Hillel contradicst this.Actually, they did look at being “meikel” and based their opinins on that.I am not sure about your other point.

    emeslaamito: Never heard of that snd certainly I never heard of that in Poland, Russia, Lithuania..etc

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