Ladies, do you say ??? ???? ???? and ??? ???? ?????

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  • #595330

    I’ve always davened the way I was taught in school–??? ???? ??? and ??? ???? ???. My daughter told me today that she was taught to say ??? ???? ???? and ??? ???? ????

    Is this the way most of you were taught? I have never heard of this minhag before.

    #745474

    doodle jump
    Participant

    Oh. I always say shelo asani goy. That is what I was taught.

    #745475

    yogibooboo
    Member

    i was taught what u were taught. that is so weird!

    #745476

    aries2756
    Participant

    I was taught to daven “bifnim”, meaning what the siddur says!

    #745477

    Jam
    Participant

    I was tought to say “MODA ani l’fanecha” in the morning instead of “mode ani”

    #745478

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I was tought to say “MODA ani l’fanecha” in the morning instead of “mode ani”

    That is quoted in the name of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ZT”L in Halichos Shlomo.

    #745479

    Jam, my daughter was taught that also. I was not. I still say “modeh ani”, but I supposed I should try to get used to changing that.

    As far as the brachos go, I don’t know what to make of it. She’s in the 3rd grade and says that all of her teachers since 1st grade have been saying it with them this way. I would think that I would have seen it written in the siddur if women were supposed to say it differently. It seems a little strange to me that she was taught this way when I have never heard of it before.

    #745480

    haifagirl
    Participant

    I say MODEH ani. I saw in a siddur MODA, and I asked and was told to keep saying MODEH. Upon further research, someone showed me a sephardi siddur that not only said MODA, but also ??? ???? ???? and ??? ???? ????. Asking again, the rabbi (who has a great sense of humor) told me to keep saying it the way I’m used to, “because if you daven for the omud, you don’t want to get confused.” 🙂

    #745481

    morah reyna
    Member

    The Sefardim do. i.e. Anyone who davons eidut mizrach.

    #745482

    QuestionForYou
    Participant

    MII,

    can you please tell us what type of school it is?

    For example, Bais Yaakov, Dati Leumi, etc.

    Thank you.

    #745483

    twisted
    Participant

    MIY; that is the nusach sfard/mizrach. If it is mixed class, and the sfardim are the rov, in some places they will go with the rov. If it is not a mixed group, and ashkenazi, something is wrong. There are times in EY where you go with the flow, and times when maintaining your mesorah requires conscious effort.

    #745484

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    My 7 year old daughter asked me if an ??? ???? can say ??? ???? ??? in davening or not?!!

    My Rov thought and then said that he can cos he’s thanking HaShem for not making him an ??? ?????

    #745485

    It’s a girls only chareidi school. Some of the teachers are chassidish and some are litvish, but all are ashkenazi and chareidi. It is in EY.

    #745486

    oomis
    Participant

    I daven the way the brachas were always written. I have never heard of this new form.

    #745487

    i am here
    Member

    Its a free country!!!!!!!!!! 🙂

    #745488

    aries2756
    Participant

    I have a beautiful Women’s siddur from Rabbi Dovid Weinberger and the only difference is “sheasani kirzono”. That is the only change made for women.

    #745489

    usbaers
    Member

    When I was in EY on kibbutz twenty years ago, a recently converted young woman told me that she had been taught to say “…shifcha” (at the time I didn’t ask about ‘goya’)but after that I only saw it as an alternate in a new “progressive” siddur.

    Different question: when do you say Elokai Neshoma, after Netilas Yadayim/Asher Yatzar, or after Eilu Devorim? We were taught the latter but my kids are taught the former, the way it’s printed in their siddurim.

    #745490

    This is definitely something you should check with your Posek/Rov.

    Years ago my husband returned from E”Y with a siddur for me that had the Berochos as Goya and Shifcha. I used it for many years and davened so even after the siddur disappeared. Perhaps i gave it to a young BT girl from Ukraine who stayed with us for a while or else one of my sons decided to clean up around Pesach time.

    Anyway, at our bungalow colony we started to doing Tefilla Betzibur on Rosh Chodesh and i was one of the voulunteers for the Berachos. Yes, i used Shifcha and Goya version. The women were apalled and asked where it came from and i told them the story.

    One woman discussed it with her husband who did some research and came back to me saying that one could not answer Amen when saying Brachos in Goya and Shifcha version.

    I did revert back to the siddur version as i have tried to purchase a women’s version siddur with Goya and Shifcha version(that may have some explanation) but to no avail.

    Let the comments keep coming including a comment directly from a Rav who is a Posek too, not as second source.

    #745491

    Thanks for your input, everyone. I think I will ask a Rav about this and, if necessary, talk to her teachers about it.

    usbaers, I was taught to say it after asher yotzar despite the fact that most siddurim have it differently. I now use a siddur that has it after asher yotzar–I think more are coming out that way since that’s the more accepted opinion.

    #745492

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    “I was taught to daven ‘bifnim’ meaning what the siddur says”

    To daven bifnim is highly commendable. The drawback is that you are saying what the printer of that particular siddur chose to print. In many siddurim there are a variety of nuschaos in several parts of davening. Common examples include morid hageshem/hagashem, and many other phrazes in davening that some shuls say while others dont especially nusach sefard. One must therefore know what is one’s minhag or mesorah to say or of the shul you are in, and not just read blindly from whatever it happens to say in the siddur you are using at that particular tefillah.

    #745493

    goodbye
    Member

    da’as yochid: My recollection is that R’ Shlomo Zalman says NOT to say moda ani. can you please give us the exact source?

    #745494

    Okay, after speaking to my daughter again, there seems to have been some kind of miscommunication (why doesn’t spell check like that word?). Her teachers did not teach her to say ???? and ????. They taught her to say what it says in her siddur, ??? and ???, and that was the way she had been saying it in 1st and 2nd grade. Now that she’s in 3rd grade, her teacher told them to say the brachos quietly on their own, and she says that most of the girls in her class say ???? and ????, so she assumed that that must be the preferred nusach and starting saying it that way herself. I don’t know why the girls in her class are saying it this way, but I told her that she should go back to saying it the way she used to say it until we research this further. I do feel a little better now knowing that this came from her classmates and not her teachers.

    #745495

    me too
    Member

    A cute story for the Yiddish speakers.

    An old woman was overheard saying after ????? A Bracha V’hatzlohe oif mein Keppleh When asked “Bubby why dont you say mein Kop?” “Well when I becamea “big girl”I decided to change. But it struck me strange “yesterday a Keppele all of a sudden a Kap?”

    #745496

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    da’as yochid: My recollection is that R’ Shlomo Zalman says NOT to say moda ani. can you please give us the exact source?

    ?????? ???? – ???? – ??? ?’ – ????? ???? 17

    #745497

    mewho
    Participant

    i have a womens artscroll siddur that my kids bought for me some years ago and it is great!

    love it!!

    #745498

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The following ?? ????? discusses ??? ???? ???? and ??? ???? ????,

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14418&st=&pgnum=150&hilite=

    as does the (??? ????? (???????

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=36229&st=&pgnum=16&hilite=

    #745499

    DY, Can you summarize those for those of us who don’t have time or energy to read through it all? (Assuming you’ve already read it.)

    #745500

    ha ha ha ha
    Member

    oh i say Shelo asani GOYTA!! and especially at this time of year!!

    #745501

    goodbye
    Member

    daas yochid, nice marei mekomos. thanks! The Butchatcher ends off not to change from the siddur, and that a woman should also say ‘goy’ and ‘eved’.

    #745502

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, Can you summarize those for those of us who don’t have time or energy to read through it all? (Assuming you’ve already read it.)

    The ?? ????? brings a ??? ??? and a ???”? who say that women should say ??? ???? ???? and ??? ???? ???? with ?? ??????, and the ???”? and ??”? who hold not to say ?? ??????.

    Goodbye summarized the (??? ????? (??????? correctly, I’ll just add that he says that the words ??? and ??? include a ???? and ????.

    #745503

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    oh i say Shelo asani GOYTA!! and especially at this time of year!!

    Isn’t that the same as ??? ???? ????? 🙂

    #745504

    charliehall
    Participant

    “i have a womens artscroll siddur that my kids bought for me some years ago and it is great!”

    My wife got it, but when she realized that the first word was “modeh” rather than “modah” she put it down and never used it again. I don’t understand why a woman would say “modeh” any more than I would say “modah”.

    #745505

    i love coffe
    Participant

    The female sfardim say “shlo asani goyah” and “shlo asani shifchah”.

    #745506

    Thanks, DY.

    #745507

    usbaers
    Member

    hahaha: good one!

    Isn’t there a bracha in the women’s siddur, “please send me a cleaning lady before Pesach”?

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