June 12, 2012 12:05 am at 12:05 am #603751Shticky GuyParticipant
Now that the recent pictures have emerged of him without a yamulke, is it correct to listen to or even keep his cds?June 12, 2012 12:21 am at 12:21 am #886175
What, his music was okay then but now that maybe he isn’t Frum (no one knows for sure) the music becomes Treif Lemafrea? You realize the ridiculousness of that idea, right?June 12, 2012 12:22 am at 12:22 am #886176TomcheMember
Truth be told, no one should have been listening to his junk in the first place. Even when the faker was wearing a yarmulka.June 12, 2012 12:29 am at 12:29 am #886177
Maybe iglaei milsa…June 12, 2012 12:36 am at 12:36 am #886178
DaasYochid: There’s no Iglaei Milsa. Everyone knew Lechatchilah that people tell Lashon Harah about anyone famous. Maybe we should throw out all CDs because every famous person is being Over on Lifnei Iveir just by being famous. Don’t look at Lashon Harah, don’t listen to Lashon Harah, and if the CDs were enjoyable or inspiring or okay to listen to or whatever then there’s no reason not to listen to them now.June 12, 2012 12:41 am at 12:41 am #886179TomcheMember
A frum person who frei’s out is not a tinok shenishba; he’s a rasha.June 12, 2012 12:51 am at 12:51 am #886180yitayningwutParticipant
You have no idea whether he is frum or not. Stop being motzei shem ra.June 12, 2012 12:59 am at 12:59 am #886181
Tomche: And that random thought is relevant at all why?June 12, 2012 1:08 am at 1:08 am #886182
I’m not arguing how big a tzaddik Matisyahu is or isn’t. What I’m saying is that if you go by the theory that the music is a product of the person who composed or performed it, IF in fact a composer/performer leaves the fold, it’s likely that he was harboring such thoughts even before it was externally manifested.
There’s a book recently published, Through Music and Song-Music from a Torah Perspective by Rabbi Elysha Sandler which discusses the idea in a rational, sourced manner.
I personally have no idea at what level Matisyahu is, nor do I care to discuss it, but I will say that in my opinion, listening to that musical style is not good for the neshamah.June 12, 2012 1:29 am at 1:29 am #886183
i thought he just shaved his beardJune 12, 2012 1:44 am at 1:44 am #886184
DY: I don’t judge musical styles. I’m not at all arrogant enough to think that whatever music I find enjoyable or distasteful means that everyone else has to think that way. Who am I to dictate what someone else can find inspiring?June 12, 2012 1:51 am at 1:51 am #886185vus eppisMember
Rabboysai theres a chakirah if he is doing it to make atzirf to the the teenage yid he bleibs a shem kiruv however if hes doing it for the shgotzim grada hes a mamzarJune 12, 2012 2:52 am at 2:52 am #886187AZOI.ISParticipant
What happened with his wife and child? Are they moving in his direction?June 12, 2012 3:39 am at 3:39 am #886188WolfishMusingsParticipant
I will not be destroying or discarding any Mattisyahu CDs, no matter what he does.
The WolfJune 12, 2012 4:39 am at 4:39 am #886189MiddlePathParticipant
Hmm, so he’s a “King without a Crown”? 🙂June 12, 2012 4:43 am at 4:43 am #886190
Who am I to dictate what someone else can find inspiring?
My rebbeim cringed at music which was much milder than this. I’ve discussed this with people who truly understand music. There’s a chachmah to music, it’s not purely subjective.June 12, 2012 4:45 am at 4:45 am #886191
I will not be destroying or discarding any Mattisyahu CDs, no matter what he does.
As implied in my earlier post, neither will I.June 12, 2012 5:44 am at 5:44 am #886192MorahRachMember
I grew up with him. He is a really lovely guy who comes from a lovely MO family. He is a religious man he is just trying to find his balance. He grew up Matt..dabbled in being chassidish it wasn’t for him. Where is the picture of him without a yarmulka? To my knowledge he is still a frum guy. I saw him last the week he shaved his beard he is just finding himself. What does that have to Do with his music? The lady who washed my sheital last was wearing jeans when I went to drop it off should I no longer give her my business. I am not understanding why boycotting his music will help anything even if Cv’s he isn’t frum anymore.June 12, 2012 7:40 am at 7:40 am #886193
I knew it would happen straight from the start. The guy was NEVER sincere. I pretty much forbade my wife from listening to his music (just about the only time I ever told my wife I really, really did NOT want her to do something). I told others I believed “Mattisyahu” was a complete joke, an idiot, not someone worthy of even a minute’s attention. Nobody believed me, they all believed he was so awesome, so frum, so great.
I believe the frum world should be much more careful regarding BTs. While nobody can really tell what a person is like on the inside, some are quite obviously just after the chitzoniyus.
Me myself, I’m not such an amazing person either, I admit. I don’t daven as well as I should, don’t make it to most weekday minyanim (there are no minyanim before I leave for work and I am always busy throughout the evening), don’t learn more than the absolute minimum one might expect. But I am *stable* in what I do, unlike many who swing from one side to the other, have strange behavior and affiliate with weird groups (like Chabad). With such people, it’s just plain obvious that they will abandon Yiddishkeit at some point, when it’s not ‘cool’ any more.June 12, 2012 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #886194
DY: There is music I would cringe at also. Lots of it, probably. And I’m sure there are general rules for what types of music trigger what responses in the brain. Still, everyone’s different and will get different things out of hearing different types of music.June 12, 2012 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #886195oot for lifeParticipant
I have heard that music is one of those things that penetrates directly to the neshama, the singer and perhaps musician as well have a direct influence that we cannot filter out. In general that is the danger of “goyisha music”. The concern here is that at the time this particular artist had the machshavas that are now being expressed, if so then these underlying feelings will be conveyed in his music.
For whatever its worth, I stopped listening to his music after attending a concert of his. The crowd at the concert missed the message of the music, mixed dancing being the *least* of my objection. I had no expectation of him stopping the show or preventing a certain type of crowd, however, if his music had been of pure intent then perhaps the crowd would have filtered itself, by being affected by his music and message.
It saddens me that such a public figure, so well known for his yiddish appearance, would choose this path. I hope his family is strong and has the proper people around them to help support them. And for their sake and the sake of all am yisroel he finds his way back to where he needs to be.June 12, 2012 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #886196
I think the first two albums (not familiar with post recordings) are valid and very moving to listen to.
Generally speaking, if someone, chas veshalom, goes off the derech, do their merits prior to that still count for them, especially when they return again?
Incidentally, someone once said no one should take another Jew’s cheshbon.
In Matisyahu’s case, as in all BT’s cases, there are always strong pulls to previous life and habits, which are not always seen by us as being totally worthless or even uncomfortable. It is easy to slip.
ALSO, along the way, some well-intentioned people can turn off a BT by being too controlling and dominating and smothering, extinguishing the very light that motivated the BT in the first place.
For me, I have made up my mind that no one person is going to interfere with my relationship with Hashem. But I can see how many BTs can get turned off.
Matisyahu “saw the light”, I am sure he is not so far off as one may think. I would bet he is going through something, which is his business, and will be back, iy’H.
Bottom line: Matiyahu wrote the most beautiful Jewish music I have ever heard. Bottom line: He received a lot of hatred from his people. Bottom line: I know this because everytime I mentioned I saw him in concert or like his music, you would not believe the backlash of criticism I heard from yidden about him, and from those who never saw him in concert or heard his music. They just parroted the motzei shem rah, not knowing what they were talking about.
I bet that lead to him falling off.June 12, 2012 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #886197musicaldignityMember
This is very simple.
For those who listen and think non Jewish music is acceptable – Matisyahu will always be ok
For those who do not listen to non Jewish music and want a Jewish Ta’am to their music – Matisyahu will never be ok
Nothing has changed, this is not about whether he is wearing a yarmulka or not. His music has no Jewish feeling to it just as so many other “jewish” productions today.
HatzlachaJune 12, 2012 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #886198tahiniMember
Leave the guy alone, if you don’t like him, don’t talk about him, we don’t know want he feels or thinks.
Lots of people go through changes in their life, others cannot be the judge of their thinking.
To be a BT is a huge step, to spend time later in life thinking about one’s decisions is natural. People change direction in life, some in ways we can clearly see, through dress others in their thinking, which can be well hidden from the eyes of others.June 12, 2012 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #886199AZOI.ISParticipant
Making major changes in ones life when one is single is hard enough. Making changes when youre married with a child gets a lot more complicated. I hope his wife and him are on the same page, for the kids sake (being pulled in multiple directions). Does anyone know?June 12, 2012 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #886200
Musicaldignity: And who gets to determine what music has a “Jewish feel”? All of our music was “borrowed” from the neighboring Goyim at some point in our history. I once heard someone say that a certain tune he used on the Yamim Norayim was so powerful that it must have been given at Har Sinai. He said that that’s what “Jewish music” means. It was nothing more than a Russian march. You want the music they had in the Beis Hamikdash? Only listen to Gregorian chants from now on. That’s the one type of music that the Goyim stole from us, not that we stole from them.June 12, 2012 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #886201
Here are three points to ponder:
1. I have heard from reliable sources that music (not lyrics) is not considered non-Jewish unless it makes you dance to a certain degree, of which does not happen these days.
2. I have heard from reliable sources that many of the tunes we sing in shul may have originated from places like the Polish military, secular songs in Europe, and even choir or church-like music.
3. I know many reliable sources, as frum as can be, who like classical music EVEN if the composer was an antisemite.
Ok..another point to ponder: Being a BT…I cannot tell you how many songs I hear on Jewish radio where the musicians are throwing in instrumentation directly from the Beatles, Eric Clapton, Rod Stewart, and other such artists. In fact, if they studied music formally, they would almost have had to learn those guitar and piano riffs from a legitimate teacher.
So…….June 12, 2012 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #886202
BTGuy . . . please. The Yidden, even though some might not have understood him, wanted him to shine the light of Hashem and Torah through his career and public persona.
To me, it was obvious that this person who rose so dramatically would fall so dramatically as well.
Did he learn deeply and regularly? Did he surround himself with earnest, good people? Did he guard his eyes, ears, and mind appropriately?
I’ve listened to him on occasion while he was asked to speak about Hashem and Torah. From his responses I am not surprised by his recent direction.
Hashem wants EMES from all of us.June 12, 2012 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #886203musicaldignityMember
Sam there is no question that you are a non Jewish music listener in which case this argument is useless – you will never understand until after you realize whats wrong with non Jewish music.June 12, 2012 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #886204
Another thing . . .
His success was based on sheker . . . a Jewish boy from White Plains singing like a Jamaican black. 100% fake
The Torah warns us . . . Midavar sheker tirchak . . . Distance yourself from a false thing.June 12, 2012 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #886205
I pray for him and his wife and kinder . . . and that another Yiddishe mishpacha does not break up.June 12, 2012 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #886206Doodle-Man™Member
What happened to his son in ya’alili?June 12, 2012 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #886207
Musicaldignity: It’s nice of you to make (what you obviously think is a negative) personal judgment about me without responding to my point. Moreover, if you had been in the CR longer and seen one of my earlier posts you would know what you said is not true. So, now that that’s out of the way, can you please attempt to respond to my actual point without ignoring it by making a personal “attack”?June 12, 2012 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #886208
I suggest you are very unfamiliar with the topic even though you mean well.
Those of us who like Matisyahu’s music before all this happened know very well the criticisms of him parroted in knee-jerk reaction from almost every yid we ever mentioned his name to.
….Please…to say the yidden wanted him to shine, is just naive.
Do you really know about this subject prior to the shaving of his beard?
I have seen him numerous times in concert…how about you? You cant tell someone you went to a concert of his or like his music without 99 percent of fellow yidden having to put him down for more reasons than I can count.June 13, 2012 3:59 am at 3:59 am #886209
Despite the negative tone, which I am in no way defending, musicaldignity does have a valid point. We have all been exposed, to one degree or another, to music which, for lack of a better term, has no dignity. That desensitizes us, or in the words of a great Jewish musician, “kills our ears”. Music which is refined and has kedushah sounds old fashioned and boring, when it should be beautiful and uplifting. Music at which we all should cringe has no effect on us, or worse, we dance to it (literally or figuratively).
Of course, if you don’t accept the premise that there is some objective measure for “musical dignity”, you won’t accept my argument. I’ve been informed by people have studied music, though, that there is a objective “formula” for determining which types of beats and sound will arouse certain emotions and feelings.
I don’t accept that the same type of beat which is used in the jungles to whip people into a frenzy of passion for avodah zarah, arayos, and retzichah, can really have a positive effect on people towards avodas Hashem.June 13, 2012 4:13 am at 4:13 am #886210
DY: I didn’t quite deny that premise. However, we are intellectual beings and it’s not up to us to tell other people what Muttar things they are and aren’t allowed to be inspired by. If someone would scientifically prove (or at least give very strong, if not absolute, proof) that a certain type of music was guaranteed to only induce certain responses that are not all holy then of course it would be Assur. My point is that just because a certain type of music brings up not nice responses in you (you referring to whoever wants to Assur it, not you personally) doesn’t mean it does that for everyone.
As to your comment about refined music and Kedushah, once again “refined” is a subjective term. Classical music is the most refined music out there to most. Does it contain Kedushah? Maybe some would say that it does. I don’t know. But my whole point is that what people find inspiring is all subjective and no individual has the right or the ability to define or dictate inspiration.June 13, 2012 5:16 am at 5:16 am #886211
How do you respond to my last point (jungle music)?
Don’t you agree that there is music which is objectively offensive?
I posit that there is, and that unfortunately much of it has made its way into “Jewish” music.
And I don’t want to completely capitulate just because it’s difficult to precisely define and qualify.June 13, 2012 6:29 am at 6:29 am #886212
Daas Yachid- you do realize the only reason you dont view contemporary jewish music as “jungle music” is because the community simply accepts that style. I find that most jewish music is stuck in a 70’s style elton John type of music. Its a serious problem nowdays that the quiality of Jewish music is not up to par.
In regards to only listening to Jewish music- I dont think jewish music is the only inspirtational music. Some of my greatest inspirations come from on jewish songs. Theres a big difference between songs with trashy lyrics and songs with insirational ones.June 13, 2012 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #886213
Daas Yachid- you do realize the only reason you dont view contemporary jewish music as “jungle music” is because the community simply accepts that style.
Who says I don’t?June 13, 2012 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #886214bptParticipant
Until he comes to his senses, he’s off my chart.
Once he comes back, all is forgiven.
I was surprised (but ok with) his decision to shave. But the yarmulkah was the last straw.
Without one, he’s just another secular musican, and I left those behind in the 80sJune 13, 2012 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #886215
good point. In your opinion what’s considered acceptable music?June 13, 2012 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #886216ToiParticipant
Now ill start to listen. and read making of a godol.June 13, 2012 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #886218M.O. ChossidMember
A frum person who frei’s out is not a tinok shenishba; he’s a rasha
In response: Do you think any person out there who “frei’s out” is automatically a RASHA… boy, where are you from?????
A close-minded community… and if so, what are you doing on the internet anyway- when the rabbonim assured it???June 14, 2012 1:02 am at 1:02 am #886219
As I posted earlier, it’s difficult to precisely define and qualify.June 14, 2012 1:10 am at 1:10 am #886220
Daas Yochid- i guess thats just a matter of opinion. I cant see myself burning for listening to all different types of musicJune 14, 2012 4:35 am at 4:35 am #886221
Daas Yochid- i guess thats just a matter of opinion. I cant see myself burning for listening to all different types of music
We all (myself included) have a tendency to disregard the smaller aveiros because there are more important things to work on.
But after 120, nothing is ignored.June 14, 2012 5:02 am at 5:02 am #886222
I disagree. Rav Dessler as well as Rav Akiva Tatz write about how each person has their own world of aveiros and mitzvahs. Everyone makes decisions at their own level. Meaning there is little if no schar for not murdering someone for me, because thats not even a concious decision for me its so obviously wrong. Also learning 10 hours a day for me is also impossible so i wont get punished for not learning that much. What i get rewarded and punished for are the things that are in my concious decision realm. An example for me would be benching after meals. Thats something i struggle with and thus i would get rweard or punishment for doing or not doing it. The point is something you consider a “small aveirah” may not be an aveirah for me at all….June 14, 2012 7:35 am at 7:35 am #886223
Which music you listen to is a conscious decision. Even according to R’ Dessler, it’s within your abilities to control that.
As an aside, my R”Y disagrees with R’ Dessler’s idea that a person is locked in to a specific nekudas habechirah.June 14, 2012 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #886224Loyal JewMember
PlonyYid says, “I pray for him and his wife and kinder . . . and that another Yiddishe mishpacha does not break up.” I hope you’re not giving them all the same prayer. He needs a prayer for tshuva, they need a prayer to recover from the gneivas daas and ogmas nefesh that he committed against them. As for another Yiddishe mishpacha breaking up, the Yiddishe part of it has already broken up.June 14, 2012 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #886225
True it is a concious decision. But right now its not an option for me to not listen to music. Im not holding there…maybe one day
Im sure not everyone agrees with Rav Dessler. But thats the beauty of judiasm, everyone does what works for them.
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