Menahel's Decision To Expel A ?Good? Boy

Home Forums Yeshiva / School / College / Education Issues Menahel's Decision To Expel A ?Good? Boy

Viewing 45 posts - 101 through 145 (of 145 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #767375

    MDG
    Participant

    I understand that point, but our actions often have repercussions beyond our intentions.

    #767376

    there are some really wacko adults that need real serious help. to expell a kid like that is a crime. i dont care. give him a warning, suspend him wtvr but EXPELL? withour prior warning? without delving into it like real real real deep?

    #767377

    agittayid
    Participant

    A harsh punishment such such as arbitrarily expelling one of their friends may very well unite the other students in focusing anger at authorities in the yeshiva.

    #767378

    Pac-Man
    Member

    More likely it will serve as an example what not to do, and encourage proper behavior.

    #767379

    aries2756
    Participant

    SJSinNYC, seriously? Do you really think it is just so easy to just take the GED? Could you just sit down today and take it? And how would you feel if you deserved a regular diploma or a regents diploma and you had to go get a GED and not get into the college of your choice if that’s what you choose to do?

    #767380

    aries2756
    Participant

    MDG, that and more. Pac-man, it is the end of the year, honestly there are other options.

    #767382

    grada
    Member

    agittayid

    i can testify tht never ends well

    #767383

    Pac-Man-kids dont think that way! if their friend is punished no matter if the friend is wrong or not their gonna stick up for their friends cuz thats what kids do! if anything the school just encourages resentment in the kids,…

    #767384

    aries2756
    Participant

    StuffedCabbage, I don’t believe that ALL children automatically side with their friends. If there are reasonable consequences then children can and do accept consequences that fit the crime especially when they have been warned or if the consequences or certain actions have been discussed previously. The entire scenario is so unreasonable and unwarranted and is ONLY applied to the kids that is why the kids don’t accept it.

    If the hanhala or mechanchim made an error in judgment or worse, everyone would ban together to “cover it up” and no consequences at all would be dealt. Adaraba, it would be and has been swept under the rug for worse offenses than what these kids have done, and with much worse consequences for the innocent “others” involved. There is a huge double standard. Kids SEE IT, Kids know it KIDS HATE the HYPOCRISY. That is one of the major reasons that these type of situations end in OTD; because when all is said and done it all boils down to hypocrisy.

    #767385

    Health
    Participant

    Aries – I’ve seen plenty of hypocrisy in my life and I didn’t go OTD. My ex, who saw the same -did. Why? Because of our different upbringings. People are given different Nisoyonos in life. Sometimes it’s a difficult school, sometimes it’s other things. The only way to survive is to fall back on your Emunah and Bitachon. Blaming Yeshivos or whomever, won’t change anything. The only one you can change is yourself!

    #767386

    mamala
    Member

    Here’s a different approach.

    Fine, the boy broke a school rule– he spoke to a girl (gasp- who really cares what they spoke about??)

    Let’s assume he had prior warnings and was caught again committing the same inexcusable crime, is that REALLY a reason to expell him 3 weeks before he’s due to graduate?

    Now, being that many of us have B”H been blessed with children, let’s try to put ourselves in this boy’s parents situation. It’s 12 years later, it’s been a bumpy ride all along, there is no happy medium yeshiva waiting with open arms to accept our pathetic excuses for talmidim cuz they speak to girls. So, as good parents do, we pay our tuition cuz we have to, we send our kids to yeshiva cuz we have to, and we follow all the rules of society cuz we have to. Or else. So, with 3 weeks left before this kid is set to graduate, and the menahel has pocketed thousands of dollars in tuition over the years, and with nothing left to lose, he gives this rotten apple the boot. Let’s hear it for the menahel who has saved so many yiddishe neshomos from the shmutz this boy is infiltrating into the choshuva doors of the beis medrish. Bravo, Rebbe.

    Fast forward 15 years. The OP said this boy earns straight A’s. So, he gets a GED, goes to college, eventually graduates from Harvard Law, and is now partner in a top law firm on Park Ave making a 7 figure salary (while attending daf yomi and giving bar mitzva lessons to special needs yingelech).But, guess who is asked to get honored at the Alumni Dinner?? Yep, it’s the bum that wasnt good enough for your yeshiva 15 years ago.

    Or the opposite happens and he’s sitting for 40 years for various crimes he committed cuz he was a failure anyway. Well, duhh!!

    PEOPLE!!!! WAKE UPPP!!!!!! The responses on this thread are earth shattering!! How dare a rosh yeshiva do that to a kid. Doesnt he see that this boy has some underlying issues? Whats the purpose of him using this boy as an example? You think other boys arent talking to girls? There are plenty, they just hid it better. But why 3 weeks before he’s set to graduate? Dont ruin his life because you are seeking revenge for your own failings as a mechanech.

    And for the lay people out there: I’ll bet that if I gathered 100 OTD kids, boys and girls alike, and asked them what turned them away, 95 of them will say it was something to do with a teacher, a rebbe, a rosh yeshiva or a principal. The other 5 have various other issues (not for this thread).

    The bottom line is that we must take responsibility for our actions or in this case inactions. This post might have started from a teeny little nothing or it can be a father struggling with a son who has no place to turn now. But, if we keep our mouths shut, and dont protest to the hypocricy of the yeshiva system today, then tomorrow it might be your son, daughter or even grandchild that will lose out. Because even good apples go bad eventually.

    Take care of your kids. They are the future of Klal Yisrael.

    (p.s. In no way am I saying that ALL yeshivas are guilty of this shamefulness; there are those special ones that do ”get it”. They know who they are and kol hakavod to them for embracing our children for who THEY are.)

    #767387

    Health
    Participant

    Mamala -Who are you to judge that the yeshiva is wrong? You haven’t even heard their side yet. And if the kid deserves to be thrown out (which you have no idea), then the kid should be thrown out even on the last day. Yeshivos shouldn’t throw out their Principles just because the kid’s schooling is over. I’ll tell you what a college would do. If they found out a student cheated majorly, they would revoke his credits/degree even many years later! I don’t know what happenned in this case, maybe the boy was having an innocent convo and maybe he wasn’t. If you don’t like the way Yeshivos nowadays are run, you can always start your own. Or better yet give enough money to the 2 MO schools that are closing so that they don’t have to close!

    #767388

    mamala
    Member

    Health:

    Im was responding to the OP’s post in that particular situation. No, I don’t know the yeshivas POV and it’s irrelevant because they arent gunna tell us. Like i said, i’m responding to the OP. And yes, I am outraged by the wool thats been pulled over some of the responding posters eyes. Where is a happy medium? If one isnt Yeshivish or chassidish then they automatically fall into MO?

    I’m taking a risk by saying this, but everybody breaks rules. Not that it makes it right, but it’s common practice among people. He didnt cheat on a test. He spoke to a girl, he broke the rules, he got kicked out. The OP clearly states that the boys who supported him wouldnt be allowed to graduate if they didnt back down. That is chinuch? Now, if the yeshivas are going to nitpick over every talmid that breaks a rule, then maybe i wont have to open my own MO yeshiva. I’ll have plenty of rejects to fund my school cuz of your warped way of thinking.

    #767389

    mamala
    Member

    As a side not, i do apologize to any mechanchim who are reading this thread and are offended. I mean no disrespect. But, I am trully saddened by what i read as i scrolled through 3 pages of posts and realize that so many people dont see the tragic outcomes of yeshiva misfits. I am respectfully bowing out and hope that you take my apology sincerely.

    #767390

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Aries,

    I would rather get my GED than be blackmailed by my high school.

    I think schools nowadays are trying to totally overreach their bounds. They have gone crazy. I wouldn’t succumb to blackmail (which is what this kind of behavior is IMO).

    Sure, a high school diploma is better, but not always necessary.

    I don’t say this lightly. Don’t misunderstand me. But I do think it takes some brave kids to stand up to schools and say “Do what you want, but you can’t take me.”

    #767391

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So, as good parents do, we pay our tuition cuz we have to, we send our kids to yeshiva cuz we have to, and we follow all the rules of society cuz we have to.

    The parents who have this attitude are causing problems for their kids.

    Parents are much more likely to have nachas from their children if they pay tuition and send their kids to yeshiva because they understand the the importance of a proper Torah chinuch. They are less likely to find their kids breaking the Torah’s rules if they keep those rules themselves, not because we have to follow society’s rules, but because they are the Ribono Shel Olam’s rules (given to us for our benefit), and out sense of gratitude to Him for all He does for us, we wish to and must.

    #767392

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Parents are much more likely to have nachas from their children if they pay tuition and send their kids to yeshiva because they understand the the importance of a proper Torah chinuch. They are less likely to find their kids breaking the Torah’s rules if they keep those rules themselves, not because we have to follow society’s rules, but because they are the Ribono Shel Olam’s rules (given to us for our benefit), and out sense of gratitude to Him for all He does for us, we wish to and must.

    Just to nitpick (and clarify), I can’t imagine you think that not paying tuition is going against the “Ribono Shel Olam’s rules”. Sometimes, it does happen, that a child’s parents can’t pay in full, and the school gives what they call a “needs based scholarship”. This may even be for the full amont of the tuition, and assuming the family is actually needy, they should take the tzedaka so that their child can attend Yeshiva. Please don’t insinuate that taking a scholarship is Assur (Even though I’m sure that’s not what you meant, it could be read like that).

    DY has a very good point. IIRC, Rav Moshe said the reason why the generation of the 30’s went off was because the parents came home after being fired for not working on Shabbos and said “Tzu Shver Tzu Zain a Yid”, or “it is hard to be a Jew. The children internalized that being a Jew is difficult and therefore not worthwhile.

    The new “Tzu Shver Tzu Zain a Yid” is tuition. And those who pay in full and those who are on scholarships both can have the attitude that “it is too much” (because it is too much, for almost everyone).

    Also, paying tuition does not mean the child will graduate. Let’s say he simply failed out. Or easier, (CV) brought in a cross and tried to missionize?. He certainly should be thrown out, tuition payments notwithstanding.

    #767393

    me too
    Member

    2 Yeshiva friends meet after many years. They exchange details of their lives since

    Ruvain And where do you live

    Shimon Makom Ploni

    Ruvain Beautiful community, where do you send the kids?

    Shimon Wish I could afford Bais Ploni

    Ruvain So where do you send them?

    Shimon Bais Ploni where else?

    #767394

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The punishment should fit the crime. Assumimg the Kid DID talk to a girl and even went out on a date and was WARNED about doing it.

    The menhahel was still wrong. Teenagers do make mistakes and they should be punsihed for them. but to kick him out is a little extreme.

    to compare going on a date to bringing in a cross is not even close.

    #767395

    aries2756
    Participant

    Health, you are being a very harsh judge on kids who do NOT have your strength and stamina. THEY also do not necessarily have a support system or know how to ask for or reach out for help. I do get that you don’t understand this and I can’t make you open your eyes to the pain of this. However, if you really DO want to understand it for my perspective or from the perspective of teens today, reach out to some of these kids and see how lost and how much pain they are in. Yes on the outside they look very tough…until you take the time to get to know them and actually converse with them, then you see the fear and pain in their eyes.

    Health, you have your own bitter experiences and YOU understand YOUR situation inside and out, up and down, and in whichever many ways it twists and turns. On the other hand, those that work or have experience in THIS particular parsha understand the same types of ups and downs and twists and turns relative to it. If you’re just peering through the glass looking in you just can’t get it. No matter how much you think you understand it, no matter how much you think you know, no matter how much you know you would have done it differently, unless you are in their shoes within their variables you just can’t say that and certainly you can’t judge.

    Let me ask you this. How much did you appreciate your ex’s friends and family judging you from what they “saw” or assumed or would have done in your situation? Please don’t answer that, just think about it.

    On a happier note I would like to deliver a Nachas Gram, one of my girls, the one I consider my daughter who has been with me for 8 years has just had her first baby! A beautiful girl she named for her mom. I am a very proud and grateful Bubby! KEIN YIRBU!!!

    Most of the kids that I mentored/coached are now married. One young man B”H is getting married in a few weeks to an amazing young woman. He claims that had I not gotten involved in his life, he would never have met her. I say had I never met him my life would not be so rich and full. In this particular case we almost lost him to a drug overdose. And now he is b”h getting married and ready to build his own bayis ne’eman.

    #767396

    aries2756
    Participant

    Mamala, kudos for standing up. Obviously I agree with you, but lets be real, NO ONE is getting into Harvard with a GED, so SJS I hope you understand that, and if you took a GED you probably wouldn’t have the job you do today either. I am not saying that you wouldn’t necessarily be an accountant, but you wouldn’t have YOUR choice of colleges, and that in itself would lead to different job opportunities. So again I am asking that you don’t take this so lightly. It is easy to “say” I would do this rather than that, but you are really not thinking about the dynamic change in the path that follows.

    #767397

    Pac-Man
    Member

    z’sdad: If a child in a Yeshiva goes on a date, expulsion is most certainly warranted.

    #767398

    aries2756
    Participant

    One thing I think a menahel and Rosh “could” do in such a situation (since some said there was no choice because he would influence others negatively) is to call a parents meeting of that grade. Both the Rosh and the student should present their case and the boy should then leave. The Rosh should put the achrius on the other parents. He should leave the room and tell them if they have halachic sheilos they should come find him in his office.

    I am sure if the whole parent body of the graduating class heard the situation they would come up with a solution that would NOT destroy the boy’s life. Firstly, many of them probably know the boy well, much better than the “moser” involved. Secondly, the boys are already heading out the door and off to E”Y, in most cases. They are going to have to learn to trust their own boys in various situations and know that if they have an ehrlich serious son that is who he will remain. They will also realize that they don’t have a clue who their boys will meet in E”Y, and what they will do. So if they judge this boy so harshly and kick him out, is this the verdict and consequence that they are hanging on their own son’s necks if they slip up even a little on their own?

    Also note that if this “moser” called the boy’s yeshiva she probably also called the girl’s school. That means that she ruined two kid’s lives over something that was firstly none of her business and secondly probably no big deal. It would be a totally different ball game, if out of concern she spoke to his and to her parents and mentioned that “it might not be appropriate” and they might want to be aware. So yes she is a “moser” of the worst kind.

    Getting back to the parents, if someone wanted to check out the truth of the situation, one of the mothers could have quietly and gently met with the girl and heard her version as well. And out of concern for her also explain how such an seemingly innocent act can snowball into ruining two lives. So I suggest that such a decision should have been made by the parent body of the graduating class and the Rosh should abide by that decision.

    In addition, if any child in any school knew that if they broke such a rule that the community thought was so horrific and they would have to go in front of the entire grade’s parents to explain themselves in order for a decision to be made whether or not they can remain in school, that in itself would be a more effective means of consequence. No frum child understands how another child can just go OTD. No frum child understands how one can just lose their bitachon and emunah like the drop of a hat. No one believes it will happen to them. So they may or may not take getting kicked out of school as a joke or a serious consequence because after all they can always fall back on the GED. But no child would want to have to go in front of their own parents and their friends’ parents explaining their mistake and beg for another chance. That is scary.

    #767399

    Pac-Man
    Member

    aries: The entire class (and countless others in the school) can be at risk of severe negative influence if a student who engages in highly inappropriate actions is allowed to remain in class.

    #767400

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Just to nitpick (and clarify), I can’t imagine you think that not paying tuition is going against the “Ribono Shel Olam’s rules”.

    My post was unclear. I didn’t mean parents who break the rules of paying tuition; I didn’t even mean breaking any rules. I meant to refer to the parents’ motivation for paying tuition, sending to yeshiva, and following the Torah in general.

    #767401

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph (I mean Pac-Man):

    OK, let’s play a little. What “severe negative influence” is there to the rest of the class for three weeks, for talking to a neighbor outside school?

    #767402

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    My post was unclear. I didn’t mean parents who break the rules of paying tuition; I didn’t even mean breaking any rules. I meant to refer to the parents’ motivation for paying tuition, sending to yeshiva, and following the Torah in general.

    That’s what I thought you meant as well. Once again, you have a good point.

    #767403

    dunno
    Member

    Pac-Man

    aries: The entire class (and countless others in the school) can be at risk of severe negative influence if a student who engages in highly inappropriate actions is allowed to remain in class.

    Come on! The kid SPOKE to a girl!

    #767405

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Both the Rosh and the student should present their case and the boy should then leave.

    Completely unrealistic. No menahel would or should be involved in a public debate with a student.

    What you are suggesting would also be terribly humiliating for the student, as you point out later in your post, so you haven’t helped matters, you’ve just replaced one humiliation with another.

    Your entire opinion is predicated on your considering what this (fictitious, IMO) student did as “no big deal”. Most yeshivas do consider such socializing to be a big deal, and the students know it (which is why just explaining to him what’s wrong is not sufficient).

    I’m not suggesting that a boy be thrown out for this; it’s much more complicated than that, and yes, it’s devastating for him., but a fair discussion has to consider the seriousness of the issue. The fact that the socializing took place in plain sight also indicates that the boy is not even embarrassed, which takes things to a different level.

    I’m not sure why, Aries, you are fixated om the “moser”. If the menahel confirmed things independently, he must deal with the issue even if he became aware of it through an individual who may have had the wrong motivation.

    #767406

    Pac-Man
    Member

    And he may influence others that shmoozing with a girl is okay.

    #767407

    justsimcha
    Member

    A rebbe came to town and spent a long time with a certain individual who was known to be a sinner in a loving manner. a man came over and asked i dont understand how you can even talk to him and not even rebuke him after he does such aveiros?

    The rebbe explained – do you think the man doesnt know what hes doing is wrong?, of course he does. By yelling at him you will just make him feel even lower, what he needs is love.

    I think that eaither-A)that is the situation with this boy (and in this case there was only one person being nice to him so he took that route) and throwing him out of yeshiva can not be more wrong…

    Or-B)To be dan lcaf zchus- most boy yeshivos just brush off this issue and he was not taught as much as he needs to know about it.

    Unfortunately i think its the latter and like most “yeshivish” yeshivos the boys arent taught about it because either it looks bad for the yeshiva…or the mechanchim are not with the times anymore about whats going on in the world…

    perhaps will continue…

    #767408

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    And he may influence others that shmoozing with a girl is okay.

    I’ve got to wonder about the efficacy the yeshiva has in instilling values in their talmidim if, within three weeks, once student can undo twelve years of learning.

    The Wolf

    #767409

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    OK, let’s play a little. What “severe negative influence” is there to the rest of the class for three weeks, for talking to a neighbor outside school?

    I don’t agree with J/P.M. That there’s a direct negative influence, unless the boy talks to his classmates about it (which is possible, since he was in a public place and had no “busha”).

    However, if such a public violation of a yeshiva’s standards is allowed to go unpunished, the standard becomes unenforceable.

    And, let’s face it, it’s a black eye for the yeshiva (which is why the menahel should not make such a decision unilaterally, since he has “negiyus”).

    #767410

    justsimcha
    Member

    A rebbe came to town and spent a long time with a certain individual who was known to be a sinner in a loving manner. a man came over and asked i dont understand how you can even talk to him and not even rebuke him after he does such aveiros?

    The rebbe explained – do you think the man doesnt know what hes doing is wrong?, of course he does. By yelling at him you will just make him feel even lower, what he needs is love.

    I think that eaither-A)that is the situation with this boy (and in this case there was only one person being nice to him so he took that route) and throwing him out of yeshiva can not be more wrong…

    Or-B)To be dan lcaf zchus- most boy yeshivos just brush off this issue and he was not taught as much as he needs to know about it.

    Unfortunately i think its the latter and like most “yeshivish” yeshivos the boys arent taught about it because either it looks bad for the yeshiva…or the mechanchim are not with the times anymore about whats going on in the world…

    perhaps will continue…

    #767411

    aries2756
    Participant

    Pac-Man, again I disagree with you and posting it over and over doesn’t make it any different. You are only fooling your self and feeding foolish attitudes to believe that this little encounter will have any effect on the last three weeks of a boy’s high school days. Do you actually believe that he and his friends will NOT get together after school??? Even more so because he got kicked out. Don’t you realize that they are NOT babies and if he can influence them in school how much more so will they surround him and support him after school under these circumstances so that he can influence them? How much more will they be talking about this incident and deciphering it, what he should have said to the girl, what he should say to the moser, what he should say to the Rosh and so on and so forth. They will probably encourage him to go back to the girl’s home and go with the girl to stand in front of the yenta’s house for an hour so she can see that they both know it was her.

    Do you honestly believe that because he was wiped off the school roster he is wiped off the hearts and minds of his classmates? Sorry Pac-man but just like your screen name you are living in the past with outdated ideas and concepts. Please join us in the real world where we can work together towards real solutions.

    #767413

    justsimcha
    Member

    sorry if i double posted

    #767414

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    And he may influence others that shmoozing with a girl is okay.

    So after he is punished, the Rosh Yeshiva gives a Shmooze on it, and for the past six years they have been told girls are the devil sheself, you are still worried about influence?

    You must feel very poorly regarding their yeshiva (which explains your position, it must be an OTD yeshiva) and the bochrim there.

    #767416

    dunno
    Member

    Pac-Man

    I won’t get into the discussion that I don’t think it’s so terrible to talk to the opposite gender, let alone your neighbor. But despite that as gavra mentioned, there are only 3 weeks left. What was done can damage a lifetime.

    #767417

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I agree fully with DY.

    #767418

    Pac-Man
    Member

    It only takes a moment to negatively influence. 3 weeks? A world of untold damage can take place.

    #767419

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Once thing that I think we’re all dancing around is the unexplored middle.

    If, indeed, the kid willingly and knowingly broke a school rule as important as this, I think we can agree that some punishment is in order. Was there no punishment between “nothing” and “explusion” that could have been applied?

    The Wolf

    #767420

    Pac-Man
    Member

    I’m sure others will remember Chazal’s (?) admonishin of something to the effect that one piece of letzanus can undo years of proper training. The same principle would here apply.

    (And we haven’t even yet discussed the the “deterrence” effect on other by seriously punishing the wrongdoer.)

    #767421

    Pac-Man
    Member

    I think it is the Mesilas Yeshorim that says that a slight bit of letzanus can contradict one hundred proofs.

    Yes, Wolf and gavra, three weeks can undo 12 years.

    #767422

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a difference between punishment and HARSH Punishment

    Punishment would be to ban him from graduation, HARSH punishment is to expell him.

    For those who think he should be punished, Why isnt banning him from graduation good enough punishment (That is a fairly harash punishment in itself and should deter further offenders, Make a point, yet IMO not damage the boy) after all his still a TEENAGER

    #767424

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I think it is the Mesilas Yeshorim that says that a slight bit of letzanus can contradict one hundred proofs.

    If talking to the girl was only Letzanus, then the school has nothing to worry about.

    Letzanus means (in english) Mockery. The boy was not mocking the torah, girls, etc.

    Next.

Viewing 45 posts - 101 through 145 (of 145 total)
  • The topic ‘Menahel's Decision To Expel A ?Good? Boy’ is closed to new replies.