- This topic has 257 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
MM- I don’t want to speak for truthsharer, but there is such a thing as historical research that might be written about in a book. To say that a book is not such a book, requires no chutzpa whatsoever.
“Until then, go and rewrite the TNa”CH, where the greatest of the great are openly castigated for their mistakes.”
Not by the guy on the street. And certainly not by nameless faceless anonymous internet bloggers.
Their equal can castigate. Tanach can castigate. YOU cannot castigate these great of the great who’s dust you don’t equal.
The Rabbis didn’t leave europe before the war and left everyone there, they only managed to ecscape during the war.
But a guy on the street who was there is ne’emon to tell you what he saw, experienced and was witness to. His testimony carries weight, whether in Bais Din or on the same street, far more than opinions of those who heard the story second-hand.
Books written l’acher hamaase rely on eyewitnesses, and, until they research ALL availabe evidence, and not only the side they feel ideologically biased toward, they are of little judgemental value.
BTW, let’s discuss two facts that have long troubled me:
1. R. Yoilish zt”l was on the Kasztner train
2. After the war when asked about it, he refused to acknowledge that he was on the train.
Why did he deny this?
EDITED
sammygol: That still does not justify the nameless faceless anonymous internet poster a number of posts back calling Rabbi Miller’s Sefer to be not a “fact based book”.
cantoresq: Kasztner is the a Zionist who testified on behalf of some Nazi getting him acquitted from his post-war war crimes trial. He also helped the Nazi’s in Hungary (or was it another country??) keep the Jews quit and deport them to the camps. His reward was that train you reference, so no kudos to him. I know they’re is a revisionist movement attempting to posthumously rehabilitate him, and apparently you bought into that.
PTSD?
MM
It doesn’t justify a poster calling it a non-facts based book. However, no sources are quoted therein, and their factuality cannot be determined. Secondly, books that DO have a list of sources for whatever reason tell a different story. So, it wouldn’t do justice to the book to call it facts-based, either.
sg: If you prefer a firsthand account, there is Min HaMeitzar by Rabbi Weissmandl.
MM, if you’re going to quote me, at least quote my exact words.
I’ll paste them here so you don’t have to go looking for them:
Joseph, quoting perfidy and R' Miller's book is not the same as quoting actual fact based books. QED.Min Hametzar is not a first han account. R. Weismandel was not in Budapest at the time. Gizi Fleischman, his assistant, however had far kinds words to say about Kasztner. She dealt with him one to one.
cantoresq, I’d be interested in knowing what Gizi Fleischmann said about Kastner.
aft: Gizi Fleischmann was a Socialist-Zionist. Mentioning this just to put her comments on Kasztner into context.
And the Hungarian Hassidic orthodoxy was virulently anti-Zionist, to put THEIR comments into perspective.
This is neither limited to the Hungarian Jewry, nor the Chasidim. The Lithuanian Gedolim were anti-Zionist all the same, as they were in all the European Torah communities.
Unfortunately Gizi Fleischman died in Auschwitz. So her comments about Kasztner are all second hand.
MM,
Again, that’s untrue. Are you aware that the World Agudah voted in favor of the Peel Commission? Europe was not 100% anti-Zionist, they weren’t 100% pro-zionist either, but to state that they were ALL anti-Zionist is just false.
The Hamon Am were Zionist. All the frum shuls collected for JNF and were involved in Zionist activities. I read this in a biography of one whom the Chareidim consider a big gadol. He became the Rav, and tried to stop what was a long established practice. He ran into tremendous opposition from all the baalei batim who could not believe what was now going on all of the sudden that they could not have their annual appeal.
cantoresq, I’d read that but forgot; thanks for reminding me. I’d still appreciate if you could share what you know of these comments.
With all the suppression in publication, there are enough letters still extant from Gedolei Lita regarding the New Yishuv, and, sorry to hurt your feelings, they definitely aren’t all anti Zionist. Many were, and many, yes, MANY, were not. Polish Rebbes were more leaning against the movement, yet, once again, it wasn’t an overwhelming majority either. The Hungarians, led by the Munkatcher Ruv, were extremely opposed, but, again, in chasidish circles. Since the majority of Hungarian orthodoxy was NOT chassidish before the war, even this statistic of extreme opposition is limited in scope.
tsharer:
It was by and large anti-Zionist amongst what today is called the Chareidi Gedolim.
Generally, I decided long ago not to comment on the Kasztner story, as there are too many people who have no idea what really happened. But “mezonos maven” gratuitious swipe at Kasztner convinced me to add my own few words.
One FACT is incotroveertible: A train containing well over one thousand jews left Budapest and ultimately reached Switzerland in safety. On that train were the Satmarer rebeb (no zionist, for sure), Rav Jonassan Steif, the Rav of Pest and his whole family and many other jews who had no connection to Kasztner.
Few,if any, other Jews were able to save anything like this number of jews in the war. ALL the stories about saving jews were about non-Jews (Schindler, Wallenberg, the japaneses and swiss consuls). if this train would have been negotiated by a non-jew, we would today put him amongst the “tsadikei umos haolam” and he would be immortalized amongst the righteous gentiles.No one would aks if he kept quiet about other things, no one would aks if he did not tell other jews about the impending catastrophe.he would be universally praised and lauded as a great man.
The ONLY reason why Kasztner has been attacked and is still being attacked today is because he was a Zionist and the guilt lays heavy on all the frum jews who did not see the catastrophe coming.
So, they use him as a scapegoat to condmen Zionism because they cannot admit that Zionism ultimately saved many more jews and gave them all shelter. Simply, it is a lack of “hakoras hatov”.
roberlin:
So please explain to us all why Kasztner defended Nazi war criminal Kurt Becher after the war?
Answer: It was his Nazi friend who helped during the war.
Fact: Kasztner was Adolff Eichmann’s Jewish capo to deport Hungarian Jewry to the gas chambers. His reward: The train. He allowed some non-Zionists unto the mostly Zionist train to make this less than obvious.
ROB,
Rudy Kasztner was far from a tzaddik. He DID ensure complete cooperation of the Hungarian Jews in the ghettos with the SS, while he knew beyond any doubt that they were being deported to Auschwitz for only one purpose. His own defense admitted that much. In return for his silence and collaboration, he received a bone – few hundred Jews belonging to his party, which later was increased to over a thousand.
Just as you do not like, and reasonably so, when the side opposed to your arguments blames Zionists for every calamity, whitewashing its own faults, and covering up the lack of united front in its own ranks, it serves no good purpose, and to the contrary, when you present Dr. Kasztner as a selfless individual whose goal was to save Jewish lives. It simply wasn’t.
No, Kasztner was not a tzaddik. And judging people who lived in those times, under those conditions, is, in my opinion, somewhat beyond our understanding. In any event, we have a Dayan Emet.
Many people made very bad decisions in those times. Kasztner has been singled out for vilification, especially by the Hareidi antiZionist community, who have consistently ignored the mistakes that their own leadership made during those times. Hypocritical, to say the least. Especially since they claim such wisdom (approaching infallibility) for those leaders that they may not be criticized. If they possessed such wisdom, why were their decisions not better?
This does not denigrate the wisdom that the Hareidi Rabbinical leaders do possess. But they were wrong on this occasion. People who believe that all Jews should be held accountable for all actions during the Shoah must include the Rabbinical leaders. Those of us who believe that we should not judge our fellow Jews for their actions and instead place all blame where it belongs–should include Kasztner in that accounting.
Let’s for arguments sake say that the “Hareidi Rabbinical leaders” (however you wish to define that) made mistakes. Let’s for argument’s sake say they made wrong decisions. To the best of my knowledge, and correct me if you know otherwise, NO ONE has ever alleged they did so with malice.
But the Zionists? Take Kasztner for example. What conceivable excuse is there for him to defend a Nazi war criminal on trial AFTER the war? NONE. Nor his selling over half a million Hungarian Jews to Eichmann in return for a train of some 1800 mostly Zionists.
And the lives for trucks proposal they torpedoed so not to endanger their goals of Statehood?
Mezonos Maven, you are entitled to an opinion. You are entitled to be doctrinal and ideological. You can even misconstrue facts to make them fit your tunnel visioned understanding of history. But you cannot espouse a point of view that makes no sense at all. The chareidi view on Kasztner is that he was Eichmann’s patsy, pooh pooing all the Jews of greater Hungary, lulling them into a false sense of security, in exchange for a train of mostly zionists. To believe that thesis one has to believe that Kasztner was successful in doing Eichmann’s bidding; else why would Eichmann have allowed the train at all. And there is the internal contradiction. If in fact, as you fallaciously allege, Kasztner and the “Zionists” had in fact convinced the Jews of Hungary that they were not in danger, why did the 1700 or so people even want to get on the train? More specifically, if R. Yoel Teitelbaum believed that his chassidim would, at worst, be resettled in the east as he claimed after the war, why was he unwilling to join them and be their rebbe there? Why did he get on that train? Was Poland not good enough for him?
The fact is that everyone knew what was going to happen. In Budapest, Nagyvarod, even in a tank town like Kisvarda, the Jews knew what was happening. My grandfather wrote my father a letter from the Kisvarda ghetto telling him of impending deportations. The neologue seminary in Budapest was converted into an umschlagplatz. There were refugees from Poland telling of the concentration camps. R. Michoel Weissmandel was “shraying chai vekayam.” For G-d’s sake even Miklos Horthy publicly protested the extermination of the Jews. Even before the German invasion, the Nyilas were rounding up jews and outright killing them on the banks of the Danube, or in the Munkaszalgollat. People knew. But there was no place to run. That’s why people did everything they could to get on the train, or to get get a Wallenberg schutzpasse. That’s why the Satmer Rav accepted a seat on Kasztner’s train; to save his life. And he was absolutely correct in doing so. That’s why the Chorin family quickly took a deal and sold their multi million dollar holdings for a pittance and ran to Spain. That’s why Pinchas Freudiger, the Rosh Hkahal of Budapest’s Orthodox kehilla fled to Romania when a sympathetic csender tipped him off and his brother had been arrested; to save his life and those of his family. (contrast Freudiger with Samu Stern, the president of the Neologue community who also knew what was going to happen and stayed with his people even though he could have fled. Talk about a chilul Hashem) People knew.
Kasztner did nothing wrong. He saved lives, 1700 of them on the train and protected 15,000 more slave laborers in Vienna. To do it, he had to “lie down with dogs” and risk getting fleas. In return he was portrayed as a quisling for political reasons and was ultimately murdered. Shmuel Tamir and Malkiel Grunwald literally had Kasztner blood on their hands. But Kasztner saved the Satmer Rav, who came to America and did all he did to strengthen American yiddishkeit. Rudolph Kasztner has a chelek in every pasuk, in every mishne learned by Tinokot shel beit rabban, as does the Satmer Rav. In return for enabling the ascendancy of American Orthodoxy, a perfidous ungrateful chareidi community vilifies him. Shame on you and all those like you. And I defy you to please answer my question. WHY DID R YOILISH BOARD THAT TRAIN?
Indeed Kasztner testified on behalf of Kurt Bacher. I don’t know why he did it. Maybe he sufered from Helsinki Syndrome or PTSD. Maybe Kaszter, for all he accomplished, was a deeply flawed character. But that testimony does not negate what Kasztner accomplished. He saved the Satmer Rav who went on to build American Orthodoxy in the most profound of ways. Kaszter put the Satmer Rav on his train and kept his pregnant wife in Budapest. Kasztner went back to Budapest, when he could have stayed in Switzerland. He stood by his bretheren when gedolim fled. And you dare impugn him?
cantoresq:
You are being dogmatical AND ideological in your unwillingness to look at this clearly. Eichmann himself admitted he could not have done what he did in Hungary without Kasztner invaluable contributions to his efforts! There is no denying Kasztner withheld from the Hungarian Jewish community his direct knowledge of the Auschwitz death camps where Hungarian Jewry was fated to be shipped. If everyone “knew” this as you claim, there would be no reason for Kasztner to withhold from publishing the report he received on the Auschwitz death camps.
There is no reason anyone who could, should board it. The issue was Kasztner filled it up with mostly his friends, as much as he could without raising too many flags, at the expense of sending the rest of Hungarian Jewry to Auschwitz.
“Indeed Kasztner testified on behalf of Kurt Bacher. I don’t know why he did it.”
I do. It is obvious why this despicable murderer went to court to free a Nazi war criminal. He owed the Nazi big time. You have no other explanation, since there is none.
Mezonos Maven: my grandfather went through Auschwitz. (Cantoresq, he was from Kisvarda also!) He told me that after the war, he looked out during the trials to see if a certain SS guard’s name came up. Why? So he could go and testify on his behalf. He told me stories of what this SS guard did for him and some of the other Jews in the same barracks as him. My grandfather said, somewhere back, he must have had some Jewish blood in him.
Yes, sometimes there could have been reason to try and help even a Nazi.
MM, now please address my main point. Feif Un, is there a way for us to be in direct contact? Can the Mods facilitate this?
Feif Un:
The Nazi Kurt Becher! You are defending the defending of the Nazi KURT BECHER!? The Nazi Commissar of all German concentration camps! Are you nuts?! I don’t see any point in furthering this “discussion” if you people will go to all lengths defending these Zionists.
To specifically address MM last post, it’s ironic that he would mre readilly rely on Eichmann’s testimony about Kasztner. That’s how eager some people are to impugn an innocent man; a hero. They rely on the testimony of Nazis. Talk about doctrinal and ideological. Kasztner did no suppress the Vrba report. He passed it on to the Zionist leadership, which is was Rudolph Vrba asked him to do. There was no need for Kasztner to advertise the report as R. Weismandel was already doing that. As to the selection of passengers on the train, Kasztner did not have the final say. It was done is committee, some of it outside of Budapest. About half the seats were sold to finance the venture. The others were selected in a tortured painstaking process. Was there some nepotism and other corruption? Perhaps there was, but what of it? 1,700 people were saved. How many Jews did the gedolim save?
Mezonos Maven–
As far as the mistakes made by the Rabbanim–you think that they were not done “with malice”.
I would modify that a bit–we have firsthand accounts to the motzei shem ra that the Rabbinical leadership of the time committed –besmirching the names of those that did encourage emigration. Was that malice? The book “Em Habanim Semeicha” is a nice place to start–and the author’s reliability surpasses Hecht’s by light-years.
You say “Let’s for arguments sake say that the “Hareidi Rabbinical leaders” (however you wish to define that) made mistakes. Let’s for argument’s sake say they made wrong decisions. To the best of my knowledge, and correct me if you know otherwise, NO ONE has ever alleged they did so with malice.”
Nobody has shown “malice on the part of Kastner either.” What has been shown on the part of Kastner is results. One thousand, seven hundred of them. You condemn the man responsible–and have shown absolutely nothing comparable on the part of your ideological colleagues. Nothing. How many did they get out?
Others that did manage to get out were aided by efforts of Modern Orthodoxy and Religious Zionism. Leaders of YU at the time come to mind.
Any involvement by Hareidim in the US to rescue Jews primarily concentrated on other Haredim. They wanted to rescue their own first. Just like the Zionists.
The chareidim had very little power, as Rabbi Steven Wise of the Reform Movement thwarted their efforts with the government. If You read the book about Mike tress, it becomes clear that thy tried as much as they could, but couldn’t do as much as they wanted. Faced with a limited number of visas, they had to triage and focus on the ones who would help rebuild Yiddishkeit. At the time, people were saying that Orthodox Judaism would die, replaced by movements like Conservative Judaism which would appeal to the younger generation. The rabbis who were saved from the holocaust rebuilt Orthodox Judaism both here and in Eretz Yisroel, and it is flourishing today. Anyone who ever knew these rabbis testified to their selflessness. The Vaad Hatzalah made the right choices, although it must have been very tough for them.
Jothar, so why did R’ Elchonon Wasserman turn down visas for him and his ENTIRE yeshiva?
Truth,
Reb Elchonon turned down a visa for HIMSELF, saying that his place was with his talmidim, and a captain does not abandon his ship. Once he arrived back in Europe, he did everything possible to get visas for the entire yeshiva. Later on, when everything else failed, knowing that his bachurim would be jailed by the communists, he received a visa for his family and attempted to use it. However, when his son had an accident during their travel attempt, R’ Elchonon said that it’s a sign from Heaven that he should stay, whatever happens. Please let’s be honest on all sides.
sammygol, that is incorrect.
To Quote his Daas Torah letter:
Baruch Hashem, Erev Shabbos Kodesh Naso
I received your [literally “his”; the letter is written in the respectful third person] letters but I have no ability to do anything with this, thus I did not respond.
The yeshivos in America which are able to bring over students are the yeshivas of Dr. Revel (named Yeshiva University) in New York and Beis Midrash L’Torah in Chicago and they both are places of danger in terms of spirituality because they conduct themselves in a spirit of freedom, and what benefit is there to flee from a physical danger to a spiritual danger,
No backticks please
Mezonos Maven: I really don’t know enough about the situation to make any judgment. All I know is, if you think someone did something worth defending, you should bring it up.
I say to cantoresq; ‘a brocho of dein kopf”. or, as they say in tennis, point, set and match.
The real fact is that virtually everyone in Hungayr knew about the impending danger of the germans and their plans (who took over the government in early 1944). There were plenty of polish jews who fled and told their stories of the murders and camps. It just is that people either could not believe the whole truth ( like many of jews in the world).
Many of jews streamed across the romanian border to save themselves (this I know from personal experience). The problem in Hungary was that there was very littel room for any escape.
EDITED
Kasztner did save well over one thousand jews, most of them who had absolutely no connection with zionism. This is the FACT.
No one accuses wallenberg of hiding the truth (which he knew) and everyone praises him for saving thousands of jews.the same with Schindler.
Kasztner’s accusers were bitter and despondent and there is plenty of guilt to go around.
It is absurd to accuse kasztner and exonarate other people who could nto see what was happening.Allow them all to rest in their final resting place.
I must say that “truthsharer” copy of the letter -which I never knew-send a chill down my spine. I cannot elaborate on this, but the thougths in the letter are very disturbing.
Jothar,
When very few visas were available even before the war broke out, R’ Chaim Ozer Z’L had to make the decisions as to who gets them. When similar situation occured in the USA during the war, the Rabbinical arm of the Vaad Hatzala were breaking their heads deliberating upon who shall live and who would die. One of its senior members almost refused to state his opinion, saying that “only R’ Chaim Ozer had the achrayos to pasken dinei nefoshos like we are attempting to do”. So, in the end, there are halachos in pidoyn shevuyim regarding who comes first. Therefore, talmidei chachamim of the greatest caliber were issued the few obtainable visas.
It wasn’t just that the orthodox saved only their own. There are actual and pertinent halachos on this matter, and they were followed. This seeming “unfairness” was not arbitrary, but decided by Chazal, and one of the p’sakim in the Gemara is “Aviv veRabo, Rabo kodem”.
One doesn’t have to like it; it’s a din, not any different that when a rov tells someone that their dinner is treif and needs to be thrown out.
tsharer:
1. That letter was written PRIOR to Poland being invaded by Germany and the Soviet Union. As much war rattling as there was, prior to Sept. 1939 no one could have KNOWN what was destined to transpire in Poland, as it was NOT at war yet. (Indeed Germany and Poland were bound by the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact of 1934.)
2. NOWHERE in that letter does it indicate that Rabbi Wasserman’s entire Yehsiva was offered Visa’s to America as you alleged above.
ROB, if you do a Google search, you can see the original letter in his handwriting.
1- I’m not sure if that’s true or not, but it’s certainly irrelevant.
2- The letter is a separate issue. The letter just told his talmidim not to go to the US.
It has nothing to do with the fact that R’ Elchonon turned down visas for him and his talmidim.
tsharer:
1. Is very relevant. Since Poland was not at war, you cannot blame one for not predicting the war in advance. (See my previous post on that.)
2. Rabbi Wasserman never was offered Visa’s for the entire Yeshiva. (Which Sammy pointed out to you, and you attempted to refute his point with that letter — which after my comment you admitted does not prove anything you falsely alleged about Rabbi Wasserman turning down Viasa for the entire Yeshiva. In fact, the letter doesn’t even say what you are now changing your story to – nowhere does it advise anyone whether to go to the U.S. or not.)
And STILL no one can offer a valid explanation why the Zionist Kasztner was still defending high ranking Nazi war criminals even AFTER the war.
Sammygol, agreed 100%.
MM,
1. EVERYONE knew there was going to be a war. People were doing anything they could to escape. Furthermore, the letter was most likely written in 1940, which was after the war.
2. This letter was a letter. It doesn’t have anything to do with the FACT that visas were offered to him and his yeshivah.
You can revise history all you want if it makes you happy, it just doesn’t change the facts.
tsharer:
1. False. KNEW? Only a prophet KNEW. And are you going to back up your false contention that the letter was “likely” written after Poland was at war?
2. You changed your original bubbe maisa on that. Are you going to back up your false contention he was offered Visas for his entire Yeshiva and declined them? Or do you expect us to take this allegation on your anonymous word alone as well?
I am no longer going to do anything.
I now know who I’m dealing with. Your posts will be ignored.
Continue to ignore facts if that is what keeps your faith alive.
EDITED
To say that ‘ only a prophet kew that there would be a war’ flies in the face of all that we know and knew. The Nazis had been in power for seven years and the expulsion of jews from germany and Austria was going on without stop. it would have been very prudent for people to look at alternatives in leaving Europe and indeed many did. Virtually everyone was expecting a war.
No one has ever accused rabbonim and Roshey yesihiva in being-G-d forbid- complicit in the Holocaust, but also, you cannot make them infallible and know-all. Thye do NOT know all and they sureyl CAN maker mistakes. This is the essence of the difference here and in the world. R”elchonon was overly worried about the spiritual danger of the US and this was his right, regardless when he wrote this letter. This was also the position of many other gedolim but they did NOT foresaw what as to come and this is the rux of the matter.
gedolim are NOT infallible, rabbonim are not know-all and they should be treated as such. They can err.
As far as Kasztner geos ,enoug has been written about this and there is little to add. Maybe the nazi he defended was indeed good to him and to others? there were a few,very few who did not participate in the murder of the jews. maybe he was one of them?
roberlin:
Commissar of all German concentration camps Kurt Becher? GOOD TO JEWS?! Are you kidding?
Research what a monster this Nazi Kurt Becher is.
Then come back and tell me how to defend the Zionist Kasztner for helping him even AFTER the war, to let him off the hook for war crimes against Jews.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.