Mussar from current events

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  • #1001292

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    HaKatan: Once again, it isn’t the issue that I’m dealing with, but rather the methods. “Depends” means whether you join together with Muslim businessmen and denounce the Gedolim for disagreement with their shittah. I did not see Reb Avrohom Yehoshua do either (probably for the simple reason that he was too busy learning!). Others who promote Anti-Zionism over other mitzvos did do so.

    Betzem holding of the Shalosh Shevuos is in no way Avoda Zara, just like holding of Tikkun Olam or learning Nach (or even loving Eretz Yisroel) is not Avoda Zara. It just depends how far off the reservation you go with it.

    Sof Sof, I think we are basically in the same place.

    Shalom Al Yisroel.

    P.S. what didn’t you like about my idea to partition the state?

    #1001293

    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW:

    I don’t recall seeing your idea you mentioned in your PS. What was that?

    Avram:

    The point is not what, al pi halacha, the Zionists should do now but that everyone should be crystal-clear that they should never have started and about the damage the Zionists have done and continue to do to Klal Yisrael.

    We know, today, what our gedolim have said and continue to hold regarding Zionism and what the Zionists have done and continue to do, some of which the Zionists could certainly stop without any potential problem. Other than that, we do not know what the future holds.

    So, as to what the Zionists should do after the above, this is for the gedolim of the generation to deal with.

    But people still believe in the heresy of Zionism and make it (part of) their faith.

    So, again, the point is recognizing right (Torah) and wrong (any flavor of Zionism).

    #1001294

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    HaKatan:

    Create a European union type Superstate over the entire county. Then split it into 5 federal states:

    1: The Charaidim

    2: The religious Zionists (who would still be there)

    3: The Arabs

    4: The seculars

    5: Yerushalaim (as a jointly ruled city, similar to the Clancy plan).

    Full population swap, taxation, benefits, laws, security, etc. only from the federal state.

    #1001295

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    HaKatan,

    The point is not what, al pi halacha, the Zionists should do now

    Isn’t what, al pi halacha, we should do now is the fundamental mission of Jews? It should be the first question asked by a baal teshuva.

    but that everyone should be crystal-clear that they should never have started

    We should realize how bad our sins are and feel regret for them, yes, this is the critical first step of teshuva. But to take a fatalistic attitude that nothing can be done about it is to surrender to the yetzer hara. We can always return to Hashem.

    So, as to what the Zionists should do after the above, this is for the gedolim of the generation to deal with.

    That’s a fair response.

    The purpose of the questions I’m asking you is to learn more about the reasons you are here bashing “Zionists.” In an earlier post, you connected your purpose with Eliyahu Hanavi’s battles against the avodah zara of his day. Eliyahu Hanavi’s purpose was not simply to bash avodah zara because it was bad. His purpose was to bring the Jewish people to do teshuva. He was motivated by love for his brethren, even those steeped in sin. If he did not love them, he would not have been worthy of his mission.

    Yirmiyahu Hanavi was thrown into prision by the sinful government of Yehuda. Almost nobody listened to him. In fact, there were people pretending to be nevi’im, saying false things and attributing them to Hashem. He could have hated these people, bashed them, called them sinners, washed his hands of them, but when the exile came, he kissed the bloodstained ground where they walked, caught up to them, and attempted to place their chains on himself as well.

    I see you doing a lot of Zionist bashing in these forums, taking pains to categorize Jews as sinners, but you spend very little time describing how to do teshuva. Whether intentional or not, this communicates a sense that your words come from a place of shame of association with and hatred of Zionist Jews, not concern for the spiritual well being of the whole Jewish nation. Do you want them to improve, or does your own sense of righteousness come from standing on their heads? Do you see yourself as part and parcel with the Zionist Jews, or do you see yourself as separate from them – that you are a “real” Jew and they are now imposters – divorced from the bris?

    But people still believe in the heresy of Zionism and make it (part of) their faith.

    Do you believe this can and will change?

    #1001296

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    gavra_at_work,

    Sorry I didn’t comment on your plan beforehand.

    Create a European union type Superstate over the entire county.

    This would be done as part of a peace agreement with the Palestinians and include the West Bank and Gaza, or would this only be in effect within the pre-1967 borders?

    Then split it into 5 federal states:

    This would seemingly ease the stepping on toes among groups, but how would it solve anything in HaKatan’s world view (e.g., the three oaths, Zionism, etc.)

    4: The seculars

    Assuming this plan arose from my hypothetical situation where everyone came around to HaKatan’s view of Zionism – I’m not sure there would still be seculars. The views of the religious Zionists would also be quite changed.

    Full population swap,

    This would cause considerable hardship and resentment.

    taxation, benefits, laws, security, etc. only from the federal state.

    You mean from the Euro Union style state, or each individual state?

    #1001297

    yungermanS
    Participant

    sorry I didn’t reply earlier regarding avoda zara in todays generation:

    Why is the economy so bad today? Why is the whole world going down? For the past thousands of years there was always Avoda zara in the world-from the molech to the baal to the asheira tree etc…-todays avoda zara is MONEY, we are a servant to money, we serve money, we bow down to money, we let money talk & rule us. Thus we leave Hashem no choice but to take it away from us Rachmana L’tzlan. But you can still save yourself from going down. if a person can use his money the right way & remember that it all comes from Hashem & it was just loaned to him (even though he worked for it), then he is the perfect person to continue holding Hashem’s money.

    #1001298

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Avram in MD:

    Create a European union type Superstate over the entire county.

    This would be done as part of a peace agreement with the Palestinians and include the West Bank and Gaza, or would this only be in effect within the pre-1967 borders?

    Either one would work. External security (if need be) could be provided by the Chinese & Americans via a joint base.

    Then split it into 5 federal states:

    This would seemingly ease the stepping on toes among groups, but how would it solve anything in HaKatan’s world view (e.g., the three oaths, Zionism, etc.)

    Because there is a “superstate”, the Charaidim would simply getting their autonomous area within a larger non-Zionist state.

    4: The seculars

    Assuming this plan arose from my hypothetical situation where everyone came around to HaKatan’s view of Zionism – I’m not sure there would still be seculars. The views of the religious Zionists would also be quite changed.

    I disagree. The “Zionists” of our time don’t really believe in Zionism anyway. The religous Zionists would still want to have their own area. Think of the Bayit Yehudi voter (although they would possibly be willing to go in with the seculars).

    Full population swap,

    This would cause considerable hardship and resentment.

    So would any other “peace” agreement. You could have people stay where they are but lose citizenship rights (but be allowed to naturalize), similar to Switzerland naturalization laws.

    taxation, benefits, laws, security, etc. only from the federal state.

    You mean from the Euro Union style state, or each individual state?

    Each individual state.

    #1001299

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avram in MD:

    I am not interested in telling people to do teshuva, as you keep trying to get me to do, because I am not interested in judging anyone.

    However, simply, I see no reason why any thinking Jew should contradict his faith by being, in addition (and in contradiction), a Zionist.

    Yes, I believe this can and will change. By the Baal, it took Eliyahu HaNavi at Har HaCarmel. Perhaps this will take Mashiach. I don’t know. But one can at least try to reason with people.

    #1001300

    My mother, who lived during the time of the War of Independence, said that charedim and Zionists worked together to build the land of Israel. It is only today that there is mahlokes. There are so many stories that may or may not be true that create a drift between the Jewish people. Zionist, Chareidi, and MO are all labels and it’s time to remove them from our language. We are all Yidden. Agudath Israel had seats in the Knesset and even signed the Declaration of Independence. We should focus on one goal: to build the third Bais HaMikdash. When we live in peace, others will live in peace with us.

    #1001301

    HaKatan
    Participant

    davidsamual14,

    Achdus is very nice and machlokes is not.

    But idolatry and shmad are far worse. Zionism is idolatry. Zionism is shmad. As a “bonus”, Zionism is also hisgarus baUmos, et al.

    Chareidim always understood the evils of Zionism and its terrible effects on Jews. At the time you speak of, at Israel’s founding in 1948, Chareidim there saw the Zionist atrocities against our people, known as Yaldei Tehran, among others. Chareidi opposition to Zionism goes back to the very inception of Zionism over a century ago, not a recent invention as you imply.

    We should focus on one goal: understand the truth so that we can serve Hashem as best as we can.

    #1001302

    the-art-of-moi
    Participant

    davidsamuel-

    Slightly delayed, but welcome to the cr.

    #1001303

    the-art-of-moi, thanks.

    HaKatan, Not according to the Torah. Ahav’s generation who practiced idolatry, but spoke no lashon hora won their wars, but Shaul Hemelech’s generation who knew the many different faces of Torah and spoke lashon hora, lost almost all wars.

    My feeling about all this is that this is Satan’s way of causing mahlokes between us to keep us away from building the bais Hamikdash.

    We needed secular Jews to build the country for one simple reason: Most Torah-true Jews are not warriors. Secular Jews abide by different principles (not that they are right), but that is what makes them able to fight. It is harder for sensitive Torah Jews, who are learners, to fight for land. The HaGra said that we will take the land by force and we did. Now, it’s a matter of bringing back the so-called Zionists to their roots. I am not saying it’s simple, but we can’t do it with mahlokes.

    #1001304

    HaKatan
    Participant

    davidsamual14.

    Actually, yes, according to the Torah, as transmitted to our Rabbis until today.

    Speaking of navi, I suppose your “feeling” would similarly have advised Eliyahu HaNavi to not exhort Jews at Har HaCarmel but to instead leave them to serve the baal. That, too, was, in your view, “Satan’s way of causing mahlokes”?

    Obviously, this is not so then and it is similarly not so now.

    “We” did not need secular Jews to create the State of Israel, and “we” similarly did not need the many disasters of Zionism both before, during and after 1948. This is historical fact, not mere conjecture; study the opinions and actions of the greatest Torah sages of those times.

    Regarding your “HaGra”, one is forbidden to transgress the Torah regardless of what any sefer or even what a live navi says. Surely, even the “religious Zionists”, who so bizarrely elevate their Zionism to be a major focal part of their Judaism (not like political party nonsense), would admit that if Hashem wished to bring Mashiach without Zionism that He can certainly do so. There is, therefore, no need to violate the Torah.

    Again, Zionism always was and is wrong and against the Torah. Our greatest Torah sages for over a century (and even more) have said so and continue to say so, your “feelings” and observations not withstanding.

    #1001305

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    HaKatan,

    Thank you for your clarifications. I think I understand better what you are trying to do, and I appreciate your attempt to refrain from judging individual Jews.

    I see no reason why any thinking Jew should contradict his faith by being, in addition (and in contradiction), a Zionist.

    If possible, would you enumerate the facets of present day Zionism that you hold to be avoda zara? I definitely understand how the original conception of Zionism – the replacement of Torah Judaism with secular nationalism – was A”Z, but it seems to me that that ideology is mostly extinct. Most Israelis today, secular and frum, live in Israel because they were born in Israel, not out of a mission to turn Jerusalem into Berlin or Paris. The shmad of today is coming primarily from secularists, today’s maskilim, who would be opposing public religion no matter where in the world they were. Perhaps you’ll find many more agree with you if there was clarity about what you mean when you say “Zionist”.

    Some other specific questions:

    Given that six million Jews currently live in the medina, would you consider praying for the welfare of the state and the success of its military against the Arabs during wartime to keep those Jews safe to be ok or not ok (NOT as a change to our nusach, but as a personal prayer)?

    What about defending the state from BDS attacks and double standards in the media?

    What about working for the government of Israel, e.g., as a government scientist?

    Thanks again for your time and patience with my numerous questions.

    #1001306

    2ND OPPINION
    Participant

    Can someone explain with clarity and brevity exactly what the problem is with zionism?

    #1001307

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Can someone explain with clarity and brevity exactly what the problem is with zionism?

    Zionism, like Yiddishism, Bundism, Charaidism and Communism, seeks to replace the centrality of the Ribbono Shel Olam to the Jewish people with something else (The Israeli state, Yiddish culture, assimilation, isolation and Tikun Olam, respectively).

    🙂

    P.S. Being a Charaidi is not the problem, no less than being a Quaker. It’s making it into an “ISM” (similar to my earlier posts on the thread) that make it a problem.

    #1001308

    I think that this is the most important thing we have to know from Rabbi Hirsch’s book on Mishle:

    “These are the six things which the Lord hates, but the seventh is an abomination to His Being: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood; a heart which devises thoughts of injustice, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness spreading lies, and he who causes discord between brethren.” (6.16-19)

    #1001309

    HaKatan
    Participant

    davidsamual14:

    By your logic, Moshe Rabbeinu, who adjudicated civil matters and said “Mi laHashem eilai” and “hirgu ish achiv”, would also be an abomination to Hashem.

    The obvious answer is that, as I posted before, shalom and achdus are very important. Hashem even allows His name to be erased for Shalom, in the case of a Sotah. But Moshe Rabbeinu rightly proclaimed the above, despite the very obvious “discord between brethren” this could have caused.

    #1001310

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avram:

    GAW answered your first question.

    To elaborate, and to provide the basis for the answer to your remaining questions, Zionism is shmad. The entire enterprise of a State of Israel and all that goes with it, today as then, is shmad.

    The kochi viOtzem Yadi, the Zionists’ changing bitachon from faith in G-d to (faith in) security services, changing keren kayemes from its mishnaic meaning to Zionist money-pot, the IDF melting-pot of kefirah and znus, etc. is all one massive shmad.

    As Rav Chaim Brisk, back then, stated, the Zionists’ need for a State is a means to the end of shmad, not the other way around.

    His son, who lived in Israel through Israel’s founding, and, yibadel liChayim tovim vaAruchim, his grandson, who also lives in Israel, shlit”A has also confirmed this to be true, as can be seen in his writings today.

    In other words, nothing has changed, even if your typical Israeli simply goes about his business not understanding what is his government and country.

    #1001311

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    HaKatan – just curious, do you ever talk about anything else besides your views of zionism? Are you like this at the dinner table? Do you hate most things in general, or just this?

    #1001312

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avram:

    As to your other questions:

    To answer your second question, let’s determine the goal of the prayers.

    If your goal is to worship the idolatry of Zionism then praying for the State makes sense, as, unfortunately, our MO brethren have gone so far as to insert into their siddur.

    If, however, your goal is to beseech G-d to protect the Jews who live in E”Y simply because they are our Jewish brethren (especially if you also understand that the State of Israel is a tremendous affront to Him), then the most logical conclusion is to simply pray for the safety of our brethren in E”Y and leave the “how-to” to G-d.

    Then, if Hashem chooses to do so through the IDF, then that’s His choice. If, instead, He does so by bringing Mashiach now and ending this nonsense and kefira immediately and bloodlessly, that would, of course, be much better.

    This was the same mistake made at the time of Israel’s founding. The Brisker Rav said that some observant Jews prayed for a State as their salvation in 1948 instead of for Hashem’s true salvation, and Hashem answered their prayers in kind, with the utter disaster we have seen, Hashem yiracheim.

    So it would be very wise to not play G-d and simply pray for the well-being of our brethren and leave to G-d the running of His world.

    Regarding politics, there is no question that Israel is held to a different standard than the standard to which the goyim hold (other) goy nations. Notice that all goyim refer to Israel as the “Jewish State” when Israel is, of course, a Zionist state and therefore not a Jewish State despite some Jewish trappings (somewhat like a chazir trying to vainly show it is kosher).

    It seems pretty clear that Zionism is the reason for this treatment by the nations. Bilam stated (and Hashem put his words into the Torah) “Hein Am Livadad Yishkon uVaGoyim lo yischashav”. The Zionists are, of course, kofrim in this, too, while Hashem allows the nations of the world to make the Zionists live those words in constant and living refutation of their kefirah.

    Regarding working for the State of Israel, while seemingly very ill-advised for any number of reasons, this is clearly an halachic issue that requires the advisement of an LOR.

    #1001313

    “especially if you also understand that the State of Israel is a tremendous affront to Him”

    HaKatan,where is the proof for this?

    In the Secrets of Redemption by the Ramchal, it says the following:

    “…the higher Shalom holds on to the lower Shalom, to enable it to be seen and become revealed with abundant power and great intensity…”

    I think strife and judgment between us is what causes us great grief and the darkness that remains all around us. The Ramchal talks about a Shalom Level which is required for redemption. I am talking about shalom within our Jewish nation.

    I hadn’t been to Israel for over 20 years, but when I took my son there for his bar mitzvah, I was awed by the shalom between the Israelis. This was non-existent when I lived there before. On a bus trip from Haifa to Jerusalem, I felt I was with my family. I felt the presence of G-d everywhere. In Israel, they are learning much quicker than we are to live this peace. As you can see from what the Ramchal says, Shalom is a priority. We have to live this peace to bring it down from above. It’s not easy since we all have different points of view, but it’s a must.

    #1001314

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma:

    In threads that incorrectly approach Zionism, I feel it appropriate to address the matter there. I’m not sure why you write that “hate” and “dinner table” have anything to do with this.

    davidsamual14:

    Before you get into esoteric matters, it is important to understand the practical Torah. The proof is in the Torah, as expounded by our sages in the gemara through today’s times.

    As to your other contentions about peace and harmony, it doesn’t seem that this is the reality. But I can understand why you wrote that you “felt the presence of G-d everywhere” in E”Y, as that is Hashem’s land.

    Regardless, Zionism was and is kefirah and A”Z in addition to violating the oaths of galus. That (for starters) would, in my humble opinion, serve to qualify Zionism as “a tremendous affront to Him”, as I wrote.

    #1001315

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    davidsamual14,

    I think strife and judgment between us is what causes us great grief and the darkness that remains all around us.

    I agree with you that sinas chinam, strife, and judgmentalism contributes perhaps the most to the darkness of this galus.

    I will qualify my agreement, however, with the point that sinas chinam should not be used as a club to squelch dissent or disagreements for the sake of heaven. In last week’s parsha (Mishpatim), the Torah enjoins us lo siyeh acharei rabim l’raos, do not follow the majority for evil.

    I hadn’t been to Israel for over 20 years, but when I took my son there for his bar mitzvah, I was awed by the shalom between the Israelis.

    That’s amazing, and I am glad to hear that, especially since news from Israel has been so distressing lately.

    As you can see from what the Ramchal says, Shalom is a priority.

    Again, I agree with you, but shalom alone is not sufficient. The generation that built the tower of Bavel lived in peace – but their mission was not good and ultimately they were scattered across the world.

    I think criticisms of how Torah is treated by many in Israel, both within and outside of the government, is legitimate and does not fall under the category of sinas chinam. The state is definitely not acting in accordance with halacha, and I do not think that pointing it out and working to change it or mitigate the consequences is a bad thing.

    My goal in this discussion is to understand where HaKatan is coming from, and I believe I have a better understanding of it, and from a conceptual standpoint I don’t think that his views and my views are that different. I think where we may differ is in the approach to it. When a man is sick, he needs a surgeon with the precision to identify and remove exactly what is making the man sick, and to take great caution to injure as little healthy tissue as possible – even if that tissue looks inflamed because of the sickness. What the sick man does not need is someone wielding a club screaming “YOU’RE SICK!! YOU’RE SICK!!” while beating him over the head.

    #1001316

    I haven’t read all the posts and I would like to do so, but I think the biggest kefira is to say the Hashem is not in charge. Even if they prayed for the land of Israel, Hashem can say no as Moshe Rabeinu found out and we find out almost on a regular basis. We can move mountains with our speech and deeds, but ultimately Hashem is in charge and if he didn’t want the State of Israel to be, it wouldn’t have been.

    #1001317

    HaKatan
    Participant

    davidsamual14:

    By your “logic”, Hashem also wanted the Holocaust and every other tragedy to happen. Surely with your knowledge of esoteric concepts of Judaism you are more than familiar with bechira chafshis and other related matters, which of course do not in any way contradict Hashem’s omnipotence.

    I pointed out the Brisker Rav’s daas Torah that the State of Israel came into being because observant people in Meah Shearim (were fooled by the Zionists and) prayed for the State to come into being (as well as some other reasons).

    Since you mentioned Moshe Rabbeinu, you also likely know that had Moshe persisted in praying to be allowed in to E”Y, Hashem would have let him in to E”Y, which is why He told Moshe to stop praying because this was not Hashem’s will.

    Both of these demonstrate the awesome power of Tefillah, not as you misinterpret it as Hashem not being in control, CH”V.

    The Yetzer HaRa for this idolatry of Zionism is indeed powerful and tries to abuse the Torah in its defense, but, BE”H, everyone can overcome this if they simply open their eyes to the Daas Torah of our sages (and reality and history) instead of, liHavdil, Zionist propaganda.

    #1001318

    Before destruction comes pride (Proverbs 16, 18). (This can work on a personal level, too.) According to the Ramchal antisemitism is preventable.

    The point here is that you are talking about my father, whom you might have called a Zionist, because he fought during the 1948 war for the freedom of Israel. For me, he did a great mitzvah because now not only was my son able to study in the Holy land, but we also have numerous yeshivas and prayer groups spreading throughout the country. I know that my father did it because of a deep sense of duty to and love for his people.

    Nevertheless, we can agree to disagree.

    #1001319

    HaKatan
    Participant

    I highly doubt we are reading the same commentaries, and I’m sure your interpretation vis-a-vis Israel is nothing that any legitimate Rabbi would have ever said, but I presume you are attempting to base your untenable position on our holy Torah, so I certainly respect your mistake.

    As we both agree, the power of Tefillah is awesome.

    But you still seem to not understand that the outcome of tefillah can be calamitous, R”L L”A as it was when Jews mistakenly prayed for the State to come into being instead of praying for Mashiach.

    You write your father fought for “freedom of Israel”? So now the Zionists equate 1948 with yetzias mitzrayim, too? What freedom? There was no captivity. Nobody forced anyone to stay anywhere. And even for those who were there, the chareidim had no problem with British rule, were it not for the Zionists needlessly provoking the savages there, and even then they still wanted the Zionists to just go away and not make things any worse than the Zionists already had.

    You also write about the “numerous yeshivas and prayer groups spreading throughout the country”. Even assuming this is true and also assuming that it is also true only because of Zionism – in fact, Zionism is irrelevant to this – was that worth the tens of thousands of lives and families destroyed for this idol?

    The idolatry espoused by leading MO and “Religious Zionist” Rabbis answers, essentially, yes. This is on record. The Torah, of course, holds the opposite of their deeply mistaken view. This, too, is on record; see Rav Schwab regarding “Talmid chacham sheEin bo deah”.

    I’m sure your father meant well, but the facts are that Israel was and is a disaster of unparalleled historic proportions to our people, never mind the rest of the world.

    As to the world changing and all that, it’s not that it’s “hard to accept this change”. Israel’s existence is, of course, a (current) fact. But it’s simply a non-starter that the mere existence of Zionism should somehow grant it any Torah legitimacy.

    You choose to go with an emotional sevara that’s against the Torah, while I choose to adopt the view of the sages of the Torah that they expressed well before your father fought for that idolatrous State and that they continue to express until this day. Nowhere have you justified any of the idolatry and kefirah of Zionism. But that’s understandable, because nobody can justify the unjustifiable.

    Of course, then, we agree to disagree.

    #1001320

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaKatan: It is very much Kefirah to say that anything happens in this world against HKBH’s will. A person doesn’t bang his finger unless HKBH decrees it. But the Holocaust was against His will? How is that not Kefirah?

    #1001321

    Health
    Participant

    Sam – I fail to see where HaKatan said that the holocaust wasn’t the will of Hashem!

    #1001322

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health:

    “By your “logic”, Hashem also wanted the Holocaust and every other tragedy to happen.”

    #1001323

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    Sam – I fail to see where HaKatan said that the holocaust wasn’t the will of Hashem!

    I think Sam2 may be getting it from where HaKatan wrote:

    By your “logic”, Hashem also wanted the Holocaust and every other tragedy to happen.

    That said, I agree with you and am almost positive that HaKatan did not mean that there are things that happen that did not originate from Hashem or were against His will. Rather, Hashem gives humans freedom of choice and responds accordingly based on our actions. Hashem desires that we follow the mitzvos so He can reward us with the greatest and most open relationship with Him, which is the greatest pleasure. If we, cv”s, do not follow the mitzvos, the response we get is certainly Hashem’s will, but ultimately it was not the response that He would have preferred to give to us.

    I am very glad to hear that you are doing better.

    #1001324

    Drey kup
    Member

    davidsamual: “Hashem is in charge and if he didn’t want the State of Israel to be, it wouldn’t have been.”

    Hashem is in charge and if he didn’t want the holocaust to happen, it wouldn’t have been.

    #1001325

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Health:

    Welcome back, all should always be well with you and everyone, and thank you.

    Avram:

    Thank you.

    Sam2:

    I am surprised you even had that hava amina.

    I explicitly stated in that very same paragraph about Hashem’s “will” that “…bechira chafshis and other related matters, which of course do not in any way contradict Hashem’s omnipotence”.

    I also wrote from the Brisker Rav how Tefillah can bring about disastrous results, with his case in point being the State of Israel.

    So, the clear implication of that is that the State was (again) of course from Hashem, although it was a result of (terribly mistaken) tefillos to Hashem, not the kefirah of “reishit tzemichat geulateinu” (since you brought up kefirah) or any of that other nonsense.

    Although you obviously don’t agree, my salient point to d.s., as “drey kup” wrote and as you surely realized (but which you probably don’t like), was and is “…it’s simply a non-starter that the mere existence of Zionism should somehow grant it any Torah legitimacy.”

    #1001327

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD and HaKatan – Thanks!

    #1001328

    HaKatan,

    I think that this is the most important thing:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/defeating-antisemitism

    #1001329

    HaKatan
    Participant

    davidsamual14:

    You surely realize that the Zionists will never be at peace with Torah Jews who are living reminders of the numerous abject failures of Zionism and, therefore, this cannot be some utopian situation wherein everyone is at peace together as they all serve the idol of Zionism.

    Interestingly, Chava, according to Chazal, tried a somewhat similar tactic with Adam HaRishon back in Gan Eden, after she was fooled by the nachash; she even convinced Adam to listen to her (as Adam rightly claimed to Hashem). That worked out real well; didn’t it?

    The same not being able to be at peace with authentic Torah observance is true, to a lesser extent, of the MO/”Religious Zionists” who also take offense to other Jews not adopting their new faith. (Observe what MO schools in the US tell their students about those who “dare” to not observe the Israeli Independence day as a Jewish religious holiday, et al.)

    As well, as things stand now, the disasters of Zionism, both spiritual and material, have not stopped and have, in some ways, gotten worse. As we know, the entire purpose of Zionism is shmad, meaning, therefore, they cannot tolerate Judaism. Yet you think this “achdus” at the essential cost of abandonment of the Torah is “the most important thing”?

    You seem to you feel it’s better to have Jews lost, CH”V, at the altar of the idol of Zionism (both physically and/or spiritually), as so many unknowingly continue to worship that idol (and physically serve and, as a “bonus”, get shmadded, in the IDF, etc.), rather than for Jews to learn the truth about the idolatry and kefirah of Zionism, daven for the true geulah, and all be redeemed by Hashem BB”A?

    I humbly disagree.

    I feel it makes much more sense to try to save people from corrupting their Judaism with, CH”V, Zionism.

    Kol haMikayem nefesh achas miYisrael kiEilu kiyam olam malei.

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