OUTRAGES?! Violence in Jerusalem

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  • #590038
    Y.W. Editor
    Keymaster

    The following is just questions, and not an editors view in anyway:

    Does anyone find the recent Hafganos in Yerushalayim outrages and a Chillul Hashem?

    Does anyone think this is totally normal – trowing rocks at the cops, damaging police cruisers, burning dumpsters, smashing traffic lights?

    Does anyone think that we have lost “our way”?

    Does anyone think that the Gedolim are sending these people out to protest in this fashion? If you do, then where are the Gedolim? Why aren’t they out there tossing rocks? And if you think that they are not supportive of this type of Hafganah, then why don’t they appear in PERSON at one of these violent Hafganos and physically yell and scream at the protesters to stop it?

    FIRE AWAY!

    #650492
    feivel
    Participant

    difficult questions.

    i dont know

    #650493
    tostien
    Member

    This was when Olmert was mayor and there was no rioting. Bored kids throwing rocks at cars of other Jews. They need a better outlet.

    To answer the editor’s questions –

    Does anyone find the recent Hafganos in Yerushalayim outrages and a Chillul Hashem? YES

    Does anyone think this is totally normal – trowing rocks at the cops, damaging police cruisers, burning dumpsters, smashing traffic lights? NO – THEY SHOULD BE ARRESTED

    Does anyone think that we have lost “our way”? THE PEOPLE DOING THE ABOVE HAVE – BUT DON’T PAINT US ALL THAT WAY.

    Does anyone think that the Gedolim are sending these people out to protest in this fashion? If you do, then where are the Gedolim? Why aren’t they out there tossing rocks? And if you think that they are not supportive of this type of Hafganah, then why don’t they appear in PERSON at one of these violent Hafganos and physically yell and scream at the protesters to stop it? THE GEDOLIM SHOULD BE SPEAKING OUT AGAINST VIOLENCE. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THEY ARE NOT.

    #650494
    000646
    Participant

    “Does anyone find the recent Hafganos in Yerushalayim outrages and a Chillul Hashem?”

    I would think most people do. I for sure do.

    “Does anyone think this is totally normal – trowing rocks at the cops, damaging police cruisers, burning dumpsters, smashing traffic lights?”

    Most people dont think such behavior is normal.

    “Does anyone think that the Gedolim are sending these people out to protest in this fashion?”

    I cant imagine that gedolim approve of such actions.

    “And if you think that they are not supportive of this type of Hafganah, then why don’t they appear in PERSON at one of these violent Hafganos and physically yell and scream at the protesters to stop it?”

    Probably because they are scared to or just cant be botherd.

    #650495
    nameless
    Member

    ‘The following is just questions, and not an editors view in anyway:’

    Well its obviously bothersome to you, or else you wouldnt bring it to our attention.

    ‘Odom Nifal Kifiy Peulosov’ Outside actions depict the inner mind.

    There is no question that these demonstrations are getting way out of hand and are

    very primitive. Our aim is to sanctify Hashem and by taking such action in public is no less then desecrating G-d’s name.

    Why the Gedolim are not offically critical is a tough question to answer….

    #650496
    artchill
    Participant

    An answer to the questions posed:

    These behaviors are perfectly normal for South Central L.A., Harlem and Ramallah. Only there the police would actually care enough to crush the riots.

    No gadol wants to stand up to “Pious Pinchas”, and his band of “Kanoim L’shem Shomayim”. “Pious Pinchas” who knows much more than anyone else, will label the gadol a Moderner.

    #650498
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Unfortunately, the behavior of some people has fallen to that of wild animals.

    Unless there is a threat to your life, you should not be throwing rocks. You should not be burning garbage cans.

    If the woman is innocent, then the investigation will show that. I would rather a child me removed from a parent and then the parent proven innocent, than a child dying because they were left in the care of an abusive parent.

    Perhaps the better question to ask about the gedolim is: Since they aren’t saying anything, are they complicit with the actions of their followers? Its not like in these times its hard to communicate with the masses. Besides, isn’t shtikah k’hodaah?

    #650499

    Nice Freudian.

    Fire Away!

    Well done

    #650500
    Feif Un
    Participant

    It is definitely causing a huge chillul Hashem. I’ve heard non-Jews talking about it after it was reported on the news. They were talking about how crazy these super-religious Jews are, and how happy they are to be atheists, because they would never do something like that in the name of G-d.

    I’ve also heard Jewish people discussing it, and insulting Rabbonim for not saying a word about it.

    #650501
    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    Member

    “And if you think that they are not supportive of this type of Hafganah, then why don’t they appear in PERSON at one of these violent Hafganos and physically yell and scream at the protesters to stop it?”

    Probably because they are scared to or just cant be botherd.

    ________________________________________________

    sicko

    I’m sure you’d do a much better job then our gedolim

    There’s the big picture- dude- and us little ant size people of klal yisroel don’t have the answers of why gedolim do what they do

    #650502
    000646
    Participant

    AREIVIM said,

    “sicko

    I’m sure you’d do a much better job then our gedolim”

    I never claimed i would. Then again I dont claim that evreything i say is daas torah and expect people to listen to evreything I say without question.

    #650503
    bookworm
    Participant

    to the yw editor: YOur questions are so good, and the saddest part is they have no answer. Why? Where are the leaders? Where are the Rosh Yeshivas? Very Very sad, it’s very hard for us here in ERetz Yisrael to explain to our children that these people protesting are wrong and are acting against halacha , and they should know better. What does it mean that we learn Torah all day if this is what it comes to.

    I think if I found it hard to cry during the three weeks,over how far away we have moved away from Hashem, I now have reason to cry!!! If “frum” yidden can act like this, or remain silent, we are so far from Hashem!

    #650504
    yossi z.
    Member

    *sob* where is moshiach?! (or you could say, ad mosai?)

    #650505
    nameless
    Member

    Feivel,

    Can you please adress your point as to why you are debating whether or not this behaviour is acceptable?

    #650506
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    R’ Yechezkel Abramsky zt”l from Ponovetz once said that the krum kupp was only created for shidduchim and being dan l’kaf zchus.

    So nice to see many krum kupps on the street tonight.

    The Gedolim are silent because they know their words won’t work with this crowd. These are people who have their own da’as torah. And apply their own psak when they see fit. The gedolim never organized any protest here (unlike the Shabbos parking lot) so any comment about this protest will be viewed by some as an approval of the protest initially. Additionally, requesting that one of the gedolim leave now (11pm) and go there go calm the crowd will only cause the expectation among the rioter to continue future rioting until told explicitly in person by a gadol not to.

    In regard to the toeva parade a few years back, R’ Moshe Shternbuch personally told people in my yeshiva that one should go protest (he did as well), he knew people would take it too far, he was ashamed in advance that people would take it too far. But he said he would not turn his back on those who took it too far.

    There are many people who, unfortunately need an outlet. After sporting events there are often riots. Studies have shown that the rioters often have no connection to the sporting event. The just want to riot. I have no doubt that many people tonight are more inspired to act against the police as a way of expressing their perceived mistreatment at the hands of the authorities over the Shabbos Parking lot issue than those who believe this mother is being unfairly treated.

    #650507
    Joseph
    Participant

    Ed, No the Gedolim do not call for Hafganos in Yerushalayim for rock throwing violence. These acts are few in numbers (yet blown out of proportion by the zionist/secular media who attempt to make it appear it is widespread), committed by bored youths who have no shaichos to Gedolei Yisroel Shlita.

    What Gedolei Yisroel Shlita DO call for, are rallies to protect Kovod Shabbos Kodesh.

    #650508
    feivel
    Participant

    nameless

    my “i dont know” was actually directed to the question as to why the Gedolim are not stopping this.

    i should have made that clear.

    #650509
    eli lev
    Participant

    the editer asks very VALID qs

    however to really begin to understand the complete picture – heres some more qs.

    does anyone – american understand that they dont really understand israeli mentality?

    does any american understand the history of cholini culture in israel in general, & their attittudes toward religion [which didnt begin in 1948]? [or are americans only able to think that what ever works in usa should work in israel?!]

    does any american understand appreciate & VALUE the view of eida & the chinuch they teach in their school systems ?

    does any american jew today accept the view of r. c. brisker on zionism?

    does any american jew reading this, accept the UNDERSTANDING of the brisker rav, about hafganos ?

    #650511

    This is a massive chillul hashem and a breakdown in the chinuch that parents are supposed to teach their kids.

    In addition, I think the Chareidi school system needs to do some major soul searching, to see what it can do to prevent kids from feeling the urge to do these kind of things.

    Something is terribly wrong!

    #650512
    eli lev
    Participant

    jaymattt…

    r.y abramsky was not from ponevez,period.

    #650513
    markjeremy
    Member

    Since when are the Gdolim the only Jews we expect to keep Torah?

    The Gdolim shlita are our poskim. When you have a shaila you go to them and do what they say – unquestionably!

    But who said that they should be out their doing OUR dirty work?

    Since when did yiddishkeit become about abdicating responsibility???

    This is our problem. We caused it by turning a blind eye.

    Let’s take back out streets!

    Now let’s stand up for Kavod Shomayim!!!!

    #650514
    eli lev
    Participant

    to concerndcitizen

    what % of the chareidi school system’s talmidim [kids] do u think are involved here??

    #650515
    NeveAliza
    Member
    #650516
    ambush
    Participant

    WOW. Yes, powerfully disturbing questions…

    (and being that you said fire away, here goes! )

    😉

    and just to add my own beans to the chulent, let me add in my own question-

    Why are we rehashing, venting, getting upset… about something that Yidden did, if all we are planning to do is T-A-L-K??

    Where is our Jewish pride? Sure they might have slipped, we all do. And as eli lev said- we really don’t understand fully their culture and or mentality.

    Yes… It tears my heart and rips it to shreds to read how princes of Klal Yisroel acted. But do we need to push it further-

    “did you hear what happened???”

    “The Chutzpah!”

    “how could they?”

    In my humble opinion, I don’t think it helps…

    Say a perek of Tehillim for these Yidden who unfortunately turned astray and daven for us… That is the only way will make it- They didn’t act like Torah Jews? So we should follow their lead and talk about their bad deed?

    #650517
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    My error, he was Rosh Yeshiva of Slabodka in Bnei Brak

    Thanks for pointing out my error.

    #650518

    For what it is worth. According to the Jerusalem Post, the mother is a member of Neturei Karta. And they were the ones initializing the protests.

    The article also claims the hospital has security video showing the mother disconnect her son from the IV

    #650519
    Joseph
    Participant

    I wouldn’t believe it (especially in the context claimed) just because the JPost or some other zionist outlet claims a video exists.

    #650520
    cantoresq
    Member

    Does anyone find the recent Hafganos in Yerushalayim outrages and a Chillul Hashem?

    No really. Most sensible people have come to expect such antics from Chareidim. We also don’t really expect them to behave any better. A chayeh bleibt a chayeh. After all rock throwing, dumpster burning and other destructive behavior have been going on for decades. Large birth rates in those communities means more hoodlums around to do it.

    Does anyone think this is totally normal – trowing rocks at the cops, damaging police cruisers, burning dumpsters, smashing traffic lights?

    For Chareidim this is perfectly normal. For civilized people it is an outrage.

    Does anyone think that we have lost “our way”?

    I haven;t. But Chareidim are not part of my weltanschaung.

    Does anyone think that the Gedolim are sending these people out to protest in this fashion? If you do, then where are the Gedolim? Why aren’t they out there tossing rocks? And if you think that they are not supportive of this type of Hafganah, then why don’t they appear in PERSON at one of these violent Hafganos and physically yell and scream at the protesters to stop it?

    What Gedolim? We have no gedolim anymore. We have well learned men cowering in fear of extremists, pandering to the pressures of the right wing.

    #650522

    You’ll notice I chose my words carefully Mr. Joseph.

    For some reason, this story brings back memories. I wonder if this is a repeat of a similar story from a short while back, or if this is the same mother both times.

    #650523
    Joseph
    Participant

    39, I did notice and appreciate that. But I also believe that even giving a modicum of credence to an anti-Torah/anti-Jewish zionist outlet is unwarranted.

    #650524
    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    To all those that feel free to bash Am Yisroel, Gedolim, Chareidim, Yiddishkeit and everything else: I’m starting to say t’hillim for YOU

    get help

    #650525

    I agree, but they were the ones quoting the other side (namely the hospital)

    By the way, please don’t think for a second that I confuse the Jerusalem Post with a legitimate news source (anti-torah/anti-jewish zionist claims aside)

    #650526
    Joseph
    Participant

    Good point about it not being a legitimate news source. I wouldn’t even trust the veracity of their so-called “quotes”.

    #650527
    G123
    Member

    you all my be right, but in this land the only way things are acomplished is with hafgunas

    face the fact

    #650528
    eyeopener
    Member

    I strongly disagree with violence but in this case that askanim and family members were trying to settle for a week in a civilized manner this is being used as a last resort because this is the language these Sonei Yisrael understand. There are too many obvious unanswered questions that raise many red flags and it seems somebody (doctors, hospitals )have a serious agenda. Even the Police chief Franco doesn’t understand why this woman is being held prisoner when things in such cases are normally handled in a more civilized manner.

    To YW Moderator-39 did you check out the Jpost video of “riots” in Jerusalem. It looks pretty peaceful to me besides for a few burning garbage bins.

    Regarding the disconnecting of the IV- it was a feeding tube not an IV that’s number one, number 2 the hospital did not release the video for some reason, number 3 it is not unusual to disconnect a feeding tube in order to change child’s position. Number 4 the Ynet reported that child’s hair is falling out due to malnutrition, based on the families report (hydepark) the child was being treated with chemotherapy. Very suspicious on the Hospital’s report.

    #650529
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    Big Chilul Shomayim, It is never ok to act like Vilde Chayos!!

    Are the gedolim responsible for every Meshugana in the world?

    NO!! Some things are just common sense, not to behave that way!

    Every protest we have against wrongdoing,thats done in masses &

    organized/calm like Mentchsen is a kiddush Shomayim!

    L’olam Y’hei Odom!

    the opposite is Farkert H”Y.

    #650530
    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    The saddest thing is that I have people I know well who like to pepper me with religious questions, and I have to defend the Torah to them all the time. Now they will be laughing their heads off making a total joke and mockery out of the entire religion and I will have nothing to say. This actually is the best limud zchus anybody could have dreamed of for the non-frum. They all have every right to say why in the world should I keep Shabbos or kosher when this is what Judaism is all about. Can anybody blame them? Oy liploni shelamad torah… r’eu kamah mkulkalin maysav.

    It needs to be said again. The Torah was never meant to be studied in a vacuum. It was meant for yishuv haolam. Having a job and getting an education and being pressured with tests and homework and project deadlines, and having to chap arein for some learning time is not negative, the terrible stress makes a mensch out of a person. Chazal knew this when they said habatalah meviah liydei shiamum. When one has no deadlines and responsibilities, this wildness is the end result.

    That is why the Israeli army is so useful for among other things, creating self-discipline and self-esteem, and appreciation for how hard it is to run a society, and how rewarding it is to be a part of it. It would be such a chesed for these chareidim to go to the army. They would feel so much better about themselves. Remember that the gambler is pasul l’eidus according to one opinion because eino osek biyishuvo shel olam.

    #650531
    eli lev
    Participant

    to torah is 1

    u totally missed my point. ur evidence is not evidence at all. read again,please.

    to ywn moderater

    it was a feeding tube which was causing the child pain. the mother asked & begged for assistance but none was forthcoming, rather a “too bad” attitude.

    to jaymatt

    rav abramsky was not rosh yeshiva in slabodka. period

    #650532
    eric55
    Participant

    they should open a movie theater in mea shearim give these idiots something constructive to do

    #650533
    just me
    Participant

    Well, permition to totally let my cynism out of the bag. 🙂 Waay cool.

    I think what is going on is a big chillul Hashem.

    I’ve been told that Americans can’t understand what Israelis feel because we don’t have the keduasha here. I just know that I can’t see that throwing rocks at other Jews give the Rebonon Shel Olam nachas. Also, have you noticed that it doesn’t accomplish anything? If anything, it makes some of the chalonim even more determined to be mechale Shabbos.

    I once heard the Teicher Ruv, Rabbi Yechiel Grunwald, say that many people want the kavod of being a rav but forget the responsibility that goes with it. I can’t believe the roshei yeshiva and the rabonim in Yerushalayim don’t know what is going on. I think that they don’t come out strongly against these actions because they know they wouldn’t get listened to anyway.

    I dont’ think all or even most charaidim are behaimos as someone here said, but when children aren’t disceplined they act more and more outrages. Obviousely some of the people havn’t grown up.

    The bottom line is that we need Moshiach! We don’t know right from wrong and we are all stumbling in the dark. We need Moshiach to take away the smoke and clouds and show the light. I’ll agree with the person who said we should all be saying some Tehillim for all of these people.

    #650534

    So far, we have no idea what the real story is. If the doctors are really at fault here – as some who are familiar with the story claim – then the protests must continue.

    We don’t know the real story.

    #650535
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    cholentkugelkishke: There is a way to protest!

    A protest does not have to look like they opened all the cages in bronx zoo

    & let the chayos roam free, we are not Goyim & we Shouldn’t act like them!!!

    #650536
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    After “retiring” from the London Beis Din, R’ Abramsky came to Eretz Yisroel, and became Rosh Yeshiva in Slabodka Yeshiva in Bnei Brak,

    Look at the R’ Frand Dvar Torah and little bio at the end

    http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5756/kisavo.html#

    PERIOD

    #650537
    bookworm
    Participant

    Let’s say the mother is 100% innocent, what is all this craziness about?

    what does it accomplish? This has nothing to do with a women in jail, these are people who are manipulating the Torah and ignoring shulchan aruch to promote their agenda (namely themselves and their club) There is no difference between them and the secular founders of the state of israel who manipulated halacha to serve their purposes.

    #650538
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I think the Gedolim feel like Rav Yochanan Ben Zakkai & the Baryonim.

    #650539
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Cholent, if the doctors are truly lying, there is still no reason for violent protests. There is due process in Israel, no?

    #650540
    oomis
    Participant

    Bored kids throwing rocks at cars of other Jews. They need a better outlet.”

    That’s what baseball is for.

    This entire business is very sad and upsetting on many levels.The Chilllul Shabbos is the first. The rioting however, in some ways is worse. The problem is that when there is a mob mentality, EVEN Gedolim cannot necessarily control the actions of large groups of people, assuming they know what is going on. Aharon Hakohein learned that lesson the hard way, and we are still paying for the Cheit Ha’Egel, several millennia later. Nobody should be throwing rocks at anyone. There can always be a vocal protest, not riot, and if something merits being protested, it should be. But these riots are not protests. Maybe some are legitimate protestors. But I would imagine that many teenagers involved in throwing rocks at police, are not doing so because they are kanoim. The excitement of the mob action just fuels the fire and frenzy that is already there.

    #650541
    Joseph
    Participant

    There is due process in Israel, no?

    No.

    #650542
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Joseph, so what is their legal process?

    #650543
    Joseph
    Participant

    Kangaroo “justice”.

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