October 24, 2018 9:21 am at 9:21 am #1610039Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
Philosopher: I think the mods have been pretty good on this thread actually. I’m not sure what exact words you were trying to get through, but they might have just broken written forum rules even if they were for a good cause.
646: Philosopher has the right idea. Only a fool thinks he can change someones opinion once it’s made up. The only productive thing that could come out of this thread would be to hurt the feelings and ruin the day of an anti-semite.
Tiny edit – sorryOctober 24, 2018 9:29 am at 9:29 am #1610047
I never said one democratic state would be best. I said I think two states would be best. I just said that I think the Arabs would be happy with one state. As far as the infrastructure involved in their state. That would be their issue to figure out. That’s the idea. Give it back to them, let them deal with it and make it very clear that attacking you is just not worth it.
1.) Regarding Terorist attacks. Your right we have no idea. I’m not sure this is an argument for Israel keeping control of the area though. The idea is that there would be less if they had a state and something to lose by engaging in terror as opposed to trying to run a country. On the same note this is why Hamas isn’t scared to attack. It’s not because they are more brave or hateful then the Saudis or Iranians, it’s becasue the Saudis and Iranians have economic and strategic reasons to not attack, while Hamas has nothing to lose.
2.) it doesn’t matter if the British or whomever ruled them previously. It would be great for Israel if the British were still trying to rule them as opposed to Israel. The colonialism of the British empire was terrible. Not something Israel should try and emulate.
3.) BDS is horrible, counterproductive and mostly composed of actual anti semites. We probably both agree on the BDS movement. I think commerce between Israelis and Palistinians is probably the single best way to get both sides to see each other as human beings.
1.) I disagree that the reason why their leaders show no inclination to suicide is becasue they can get the masses to do their dirty work. I think that they show no inclination to suicide becasue they like Olam Hazah as much as anyone else.
2.) They really cannot build an economy the way things are right now. Whether the situation for the Jews around the founding of the state is analogous to their current situation or not (and I don’t think it really is). The facts are that the way the Jews were being treated then by the British and the Arabs was wrong. It’s not behavior that it makes sense to emulate.
3.) I agree that living in non Jewish majority countries and being ruled by Non Jews is not ideal.
That’s why I keep saying that two states would be better then one democratic state in its place. I guess I can’t really argue with the approach of just throwing up your hands and saying “your right this is not sustainable but let’s just keep it this way until moshiach comes and figures it out for us”. But you have to realize that the situation isn’t sitting still in the meanwhile. It’s actually getting worse and worse and the fact that the state and whole this whole mess was created against the advice of just about every religious Jewish leader at the time just makes it seem like a bit of a cop out.October 24, 2018 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #1610229Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
The edit was so tiny I can’t even figure out what it was. Did you fix a spelling mistake or something? 😉October 24, 2018 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1610224Avi KParticipant
1. a. The Iranians don’t attack because they still do not have long-range missiles and are busy in Syria. The Saudis have made peace with the idea that Israel is here to stay. They are also mostly concerned with Iran. There is an Arabic saying that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
b. If Arafat would not accept 99% and certainly would not recognize Israel what will the much weaker Abbas do? Besides, he obviously lies the present situation, as does Hamas, because he has not declared a state.
c. Abbas is 83, sick and has no successor. What will happen after he goes?
d. Do you believe that Hashem gave it to us? If so, would you agree to share your house with someone who comes in and squats?
3. I agree regarding economic cooperation but that does not require giving them a state. There can be some kind of extraterritorial Jordanian arrangement.October 24, 2018 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1610360
The Iranians do have missiles that can reach Israel as do Egypt, Syria, Jordan and more countries in the area that would be more then happy to see Israel gone. They don’t attack because strategically the benefits of not attacking are stronger and attacking would be suicide.
Obviously a prerequisite to them having a state would be their recognition of Israel. In their own state they will choose their leaders for better or for worse. It wouldn’t be Israel’s problem any longer. They can do what they want in their country and if they mess with their much more powerful neighbor, well then they will get decimated. A combination of presenting the strong benefits of economic cooperation and strong downsides of attacking would be a powerful incentive to make it work.October 24, 2018 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1610390
Also they can’t declare a state without US (and by extension Israeli consent.October 24, 2018 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1610433Avi KParticipant
646, why can’t they? Ben-Gurion did. In any case, they have no real leadership and, as I posted, after Abbas goes the situation will completely disintegrate.October 24, 2018 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1610437Doing my bestParticipant
previously you said a two state solution would be best for Israel because it would give them the ability to destroy infrastructure. However, now you said no one will be funding this infrastructure, so Israel still won’t be able to bomb anything.
Besides what would stop the government of the new state from putting human shields near all military targets like they do now in Gaza? (by storing weapons and tunnel entrances in residential areas)
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