Reliable Hashgacha?

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  • #1289359

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Just go with any reputable chassideshe hashgacha, the gold standard of kashruth. While there are some competent litivsh hashgachos, there are few cases where there have been cases of deceit or outright fraud we have sadly seen over the years where mashgichim are paid to “look the other way” or themselves are part of a conspiracy to offer treifus to unsuspecting yidden.

    #1289383

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    NC: Why do you list the Triangle-K?
    Do you have specific information regarding Rabbi Aryeh Ralbag that he is not reliable?

    #1289416

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Do you have specific information regarding Rabbi Aryeh Ralbag that he is not reliable?

    yes

    #1289527

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Syag:

    First and most important, Rav Ralbag, shlita, is a chashuvah rav and a big talmid chacham but like most non-chassideshe Mashgichim, he has his own set of chumrahs and kulahs that he goes by (e.g. can goyim participate in wine preparation prior to the separation of the skin from grape juice per the inyan of mevushal, the use of certain casks in whiskey, etc). If you are comfortable with those kulahs Rav Ralbag is “reliable”. If you want a higher standard across the board, find one of several chassideshe hashgachos (and perhaps one or two of the litvish hashgachos) who are considered the gold standard for mehadrim. No lashon horah about R. Ralbag is appropriate given that these are areas of discretion and everyone finds their own “norm”.

    #1289531

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    First and most important, Rav Ralbag, shlita, is a chashuvah rav and a big talmid chacham

    That is not an uncontested assertion.

    Issues of personal integrity aside, it is definitely l’toeles to warn the tzibur away from a hashgacha with subpar standards. There are certain accepted norms which some hashgachos don’t follow.

    #1289557

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I assume you have provided your objective, factual and public assessment of the deficiencies of the Circle K hashgacha to the Rabbanus so the can take appropriate enforcement action. If not, you are engaging in slander and defamation with your innuendo. I’m not a big fan of Circle K but that’s a personal decision not based on any knowledge of moral failings or breaches of integrity by R. Ralbag.

    #1289565

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I said nothing about the circle k.

    Triangle K/Ralbag is completely unreliable. Most rabbanim are aware of this and that’s the main reason it’s so widely rejected.

    #1289567

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Sorry…I meant Triangle K but I don’t agree that R. Ralbag is so widely “rejected”. some hold by him and some don’t but don’t paint with such a broad brush

    #1289582

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Most people I know don’t use it. I’m talking about people who comfortably and completely rely on hechsherim such as OU, OK, KVH, and many local vaadim.

    Don’t be naive. We’re not talking about being extra machmir. We’re talking about someone who’s interested only in collecting his fees.

    #1289676

    apushatayid
    Participant

    There are 2 aspects to every hashgacha.

    Its standards.
    How well it enforces its standards.

    When looking into the reliability of a hechsher, look into both aspects.

    #1289907

    MDG
    Participant

    “Triangle K/Ralbag is completely unreliable. ”

    My town’s Rosh Kollel explained that we believe the lenient rabbis when they tell us about their subpar standards (that we don’t accept).

    #1289918

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    My town’s Rosh Kollel explained that we believe the lenient rabbis when they tell us about their subpar standards (that we don’t accept).

    That’s also true, but not the only problem here, unfortunately.

    #1289960

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Triangle K/Ralbag is completely unreliable. ”

    Why do you assert TriangleK/Rabbi Ralbag is unreliable? I dont know him, but have no reason to believe that he doesnt enforce his standards. You (and I) dont agree with the standards held by this certification, thats another story. He isnt asking you to. Making a statement that someone is not reliable is a personal statement and almost certainly violates a number of halachos. I’m surprised the moderators allow such a line to be written.

    #1289987

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I dont know him, but have no reason to believe that he doesnt enforce his standards.

    I do have good reason to believe that, and that being the case, have not violated anything. I hope I have warned some people off from rationalizing that the Triangle K is not so bad and eating from it in a moment of weakness and inconvenience.

    #1289985

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I still can’t get over rebdoniel’s assertion that the fact that a hechsher stays in business proves that it’s reliable.”

    It may not prove its reliability, but is certainly proves that someone believes it brings value to the product it is on.

    Sadly, the saying, there is too much Kash in Kashrus, leaves a dark cloud over kashrus in general.

    Many companies use a kashrus symbol as a marketing tool, as some believe it symbolizes some level of quality and purity. It is why products that need no hechsher at all, such as plain bottles water, or, for those who drink non chalav yisroel milk, plain milk have a hechsher on it. It isnt there for any kashrus purpose, but, since the company has a contract with a certifying agency, and, these products are “kosher” the symbol is added anyway because from a marketing standpoint it implies purity.

    #1289999

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Milk needs (or at least benefits from) a hashgacha because of the additives.

    #1290011

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Daas Yochid

    I’ll repeat my point that if you have real facts or evidence that the Rav is engaged in fraud and deception with respect to his Hasgacha, you should publicly present your information to the Rabanut and authorities. If not, you are engaged in the worst type of lashon haroh, defamation and libel and should beg mechilah from the Rav and the dedicated mashgichim who work under his supervision. Its outrageous that you simply make these vague assertions without any support.

    #1290061

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    You don’t know that he doesn’t, and you don’t know that he didn’t. If you have questions, go talk to some honest and reliable people in the industry, the information is not difficult to come by.

    #1290067

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “You don’t know that he doesn’t, and you don’t know that he didn’t. ”
    So, this is a permit to degrade someone, for after all, you dont know it isnt true?

    “go talk to some honest and reliable people in the industry, the information is not difficult to come by.”
    Assertions are not difficult to make when anonymously hiding behind a keyboard.

    #1290077

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    you seem to have missed the point. The comment wasn’t a permit to degrade someone, the comment was in regard to why you may not know that it IS permitted. And the whole point of my second comment was that instead of posting stories online that will be distorted, told over incorrectly and possibly have additional people thrown in when someone vaguely remembers the rabbis name but not really it is best to go get the REAL information from a TRUSTED and HONEST person IN the industry. Perhaps the reason the mods let it thru is because they are privy to some of these facts as facts and know it needs to raise a question.

    Please look into this a bit more thoroughly before jumping in to this particular situation.

    #1290079

    Joseph
    Participant

    APY, are you arguing that if someone knows for a fact that a certain kosher certification does not insure its certified products are kosher as long as the food manafacturer pays the agencies fees, that that information can not be publicly (online and offline) announced that Agency X by Rabbi Y certifies products that may be non-kosher, so that the public is forewarned from relying on them?

    #1290716

    apushatayid
    Participant

    @joseph. So, you TOO are arguing that a certain named agency does little to nothing to ensure whatever standards it may have are not met and instead is nothing but a fee collector.

    To answer your question. I would ask my Rav if it was permissible. Then, I would ask him if the YWN coffee room was a legitimate place to make such information known. I would then ask him if it appropriate to do so anonymously in a forum such as this, assuming such a forum was in fact legitimate.

    @Syag. I am more acquainted with the situation at hand then you are, of that I’m sure.

    Brave of both of you to anonymously take pot shots at someone. At least some bloggers have the decency (courage?) to use their real name on their sites.

    #1290756

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, that’s not what he’s arguing.

    Okay, let’s see you come clean. What’s your real name, and what’s your connection to Ralbag?

    #1290796

    Nechomah
    Participant

    I’m just curious why Sun Maid raisins (and perhaps other products) are accepted, even with the Triangle-K hechsher. So much so that they are used in Kellogg’s Raisin Bran (and perhaps Post Raisin Bran), which come with more accepted hechsherim? This is something that has confused me for a long time.

    #1290816

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Who says raisins (for those not concerned about the bugs) need a hechsher?

    #1290829

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    The reason they have had longevity is because they aren’t charging that much if anything for their services or lack thereof. Since they aren’t charging, the companies using their certification don’t realize the waste of using such a certification. If they were using a reliable hechsher, they’d see the increase in sales.

    #1290827

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Okay, let’s see you come clean. What’s your real name, and what’s your connection to Ralbag?”

    Seriously… He’s going to say that it’s assur to warn other Jews of a bad hechsher? Lol.

    Everyone knows that Triangle K is no good. It was pretty much just included on my list for completeness purposes, but honestly it’s common knowledge to all at this point. If you’re still seeing Hebrew Nationals and getting excited to have such available “kosher” meat, then you either aren’t Orthodox or you’re a really poorly educated Baal Teshuvah. And, yeah, for those here who seem to think Triangle K is fine, I can understand being somewhat upset that you now have to kasher your whole kitchen before the other 99% of the kosher-keeping community will eat from it.

    #1290853

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    random, whats the deal with redbull?

    #1291058

    Nechomah
    Participant

    DY – Thanks for that insight. Where I am EVERYTHING has a hechsher, so I guess I just think along those lines. Fortunately I think those raisins in the cereals are usually not at high risk for infestation.

    #1291097

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why do you think that? I haven’t eaten raisin bran in years.

    #1291117

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I dont know him, but have no reason to believe that he doesnt enforce his standards

    I am more acquainted with the situation at hand then you are, of that I’m sure.

    Those sound like two very different angles, not sure exactly how that can be reconciled but I will say that I don’t have to be any “more acquainted” than speaking to a rav and someone in the kashrus agency (separately) and getting the information I was given. That is what Daas Torah is for. If you didn’t have a reputation for being so straight, I would assume that being so heavily involved and NOT knowing this to be true would imply you are making it up.

    Brave of both of you to anonymously take pot shots at someone

    Pot shots? when daas torah says that there are serious problems with a hechsher giving over the information that posters need to GO VERIFY IT themselves is not a potshot.

    I remember at one time decades ago there were brownies individually wrapped for lunches or snack that had a triangle k on it. at one point we were told that we could eat them while so-and-so (don’t remember who) was covering that plant because he followed higher standards of the places he checked. That would be two people with differing levels. When that mashgiach said that the plant had to get used to him showing up instead of just calling in, that is no longer a “different standard of kashrus”.
    Regarding present day issues – go check it out for yourself. Annonymously or otherwise is irrelevant, I go by a rov, not the CR.

    #1291728

    Why do you think that? I haven’t eaten raisin bran in years.

    How were you able to eat it before those years?

    #1291773

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Just go with any reputable chassideshe hashgacha, the gold standard of kashruth”

    their standards may be golden, but their ability to ensure those standards are being met may not be. caveat emptor.

    #1291772

    apushatayid
    Participant

    There are MANY products with triangle K that I do not use (probably the vast majority of products certified by triangle k) because the standards of the certification fall short of those that I hold for myself and my family. That is very different than the assertion some made that he is merely a fee collector and does not ensure his own standards are met. I am not arguing one should, or should not rely on his standards, that is for your Rav to tell you. I AM arguing, that you can rely on him to ensure that whatever standards he does have, are being met. Like my earliest comment in this thread, made several days ago, there are two aspects to every certification its standards and the procedures in place to ensure those standards are met. I am not arguing the triangle k is acceptable to me (and in fact to most of my social circles) based on its standards, however, I dont have reason to believe, and kashrus experts tell me that he can be relied upon to ensure his own standards are being met.

    If you wish to persist in your arguments that he is not reliable to ensure his own standards are being met, that is something you can clarify, but I will not pursue further on this forum. There is no toeles to that angle being discussed.

    #1291783

    Joseph
    Participant

    “There is no toeles to that angle being discussed.”

    If it is true, the toeles is to forewarn the public. And if it is true, it is toeles that the public be forewarned in the most public and widespread manner possible until every kosher consumer in the world who encounters that symbol knows not to use it.

    #1292038

    apushatayid
    Participant

    IF.

    #1292054

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is true.

    #1292066

    catch yourself
    Participant

    In all of this, I found the OP to be the most troubling post in the whole thread. The assertion that “a few cases where we’ve seen over the years” of corruption could completely discredit an entire segment of K’lal Yisrael for the issue of Kashrus is outrageous.

    The premise that no similar incidents have occurred among Chassidishe Hashgachos is ignorance.

    What of KAJ, Star-K, KCL, CRC, OU, Kof-K, and many more, all Litvishe Hashgachos of excellent repute?

    What of the great number of local Va’adim, also Litvishe Hashgachos of top-notch quality?

    You magnanimously concede that there are “some competent Litvishe Hashgachos,” but in the same breath, you dispose of them because of “a few” isolated incidents “over the years.”

    For shame.

    #1292068

    catch yourself
    Participant

    In my last post, I mistakenly referred to the first post on this page as the OP.
    I was referring to post #1289359.

    #1292083

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    catch yourself,

    In all of this, I found the [first comment on page 2 of this thread] to be the most troubling post in the whole thread.

    If it makes you feel any better, having observed his other posts, I think Gadolhadorah meant it in jest.

    #1292115

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Avramalah in Baltimore (or Reisterstown, Owings Mills , Silver Spring, Kemp Mill or wherever )

    Would you give a dollar to tzadakah for every pot, pan etc. that has ever had to be toiveled in mikvah because of some crooked mashgiach, whether chasddish, litivish or Eastern Shore leading to treifus being sold to a frum yid? Please name your favorite tzadakah.

    #1292123

    apushatayid
    Participant

    #1292054 is the most troubling. They again, we dont have to rely on a daas yochid.

    #1292128

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why is that so troubling since you admitted to not knowing?

    #1292131

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Is it troublesome to you if someone knows something which you don’t?

    #1292136

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Would you give a dollar to tzadakah for every pot, pan etc. that has ever had to be toiveled in mikvah because of some crooked mashgiach, whether chasddish, litivish or Eastern Shore leading to treifus being sold to a frum yid? Please name your favorite tzadakah.

    I’m not sure how that is a defense…

    Also, what does tevilas keilim have to do with anything?

    #1292144

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah,

    Would you give a dollar to tzadakah for every pot, pan etc. that has ever had to be toiveled in mikvah because of some crooked mashgiach, whether chasddish, litivish or Eastern Shore leading to treifus being sold to a frum yid?

    That would come out to a grand total of $0 to tzedaka 🙁

    Libun or hagalah would be required after accidentally cooking treifus in your pot, pan, etc., but not tevilah.

    #1292224

    apushatayid
    Participant

    So, you are asserting that you have first hand knowledge that he does not have proper procedure or protocol to enforce his own standards? OK, so you should absolutely not eat anything that he certifies. I on the other hand have spoken with knowledgeable and reliable kashrus “professionals” (for lack of a better word) who say otherwise and if there is a product with said certification where his standards meet what I set for my home, I will have no problem buying it and eating it.

    #1292263

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The OU is by no means Litvish, nor of “excellent repute.” They happen to not be Chassidim (that’s for sure) and they have grown to be such a big hechsher that you practically couldn’t live if you boycotted them.

    Otherwise, I agree with your post, Catch Yourself. I think Gadol Hatorah must have been sarcastic though. He usually has extreme religiously liberal views on news articles, so it wouldn’t really add up.

    #1292676

    catch yourself
    Participant

    You apparently agree with the classification of the other Hashgachos I listed as Litvish. I can imagine my friends of German extraction protesting vehemently the inclusion of KAJ in said list. I acknowledge that the term Litvish is that context was a misnomer, intended to refer to Hashgachos that are “not Chassidish.”
    I’m not here to debate the reputations of specific Hashgachos, a slippery slope landing in the cesspool of LH, MShR, and so on. In hindsight, it was probably wrong to name names in the first place, as Avak LH.

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