Respecting People: A Rant

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  • #971680

    the.nurse
    Member

    Kudos, aries.

    You said exactly what I am trying to say, only you said it much better.

    Philosopher, as aries pointed out, you don’t have to use the term “judge” to be judging. Just from the way you write your posts, you seem to be judging them, something that I think no human being has a right to do.

    #971681

    oomis
    Participant

    I never heard the terms Orthoprax before, though I know what it means. I think we should not be quick to negatively judge such people, because even if they do not “feel” their Yiddishket,at least they are practicing it outwardly – which shows that they would be embarrassed NOT to. I am of the school that says “m’toch shelo lishma, ba lishma.” The trick is to get the Orthoprax Jew to FEEL, so that he is no longer just going through the motions.

    #971682

    aries2756
    Participant

    WIY

    What you quote might be true from a non-frum Jew from birth who has no clue what they left behind. Because a child that went off the derech and left behind frum parents and siblings, frum friends and went off the derech not because he “went to” a better life but because he or she was running away from something hurtful and painful will not argue with you that the life they are now leading is “better”. They are not going to argue with you at all. If they ask you questions you better be able to answer them or you have no business talking with them at all. If you can’t answer their questions you are part of the problem not part of the solution.

    What is waiting for them more than anything else is a goyish olam and frei olam with their welcoming arms held wide open for them to run into. While our arms are crossed in front of us and our doors are slammed shut in their faces.

    EDITED

    #971683

    philosopher
    Member

    Because a child that went off the derech and left behind frum parents and siblings, frum friends and went off the derech not because he “went to” a better life but because he or she was running away from something hurtful and painful will not argue with you that the life they are now leading is “better”. They are not going to argue with you at all.

    Mr. aries, OTD’s argue ALL the time. Please, while there are those that do want to come back they who won’t argue. those who don’t want to return to Yiddishkeit will repeatedly say how happy they are with their current lifestyle, that’s it’s much better and they’ll continuously argue about Yiddishkeit even if their arguments make no sense.

    They might not argue with you because you respect them and accept them the way they are, with their current actions so why would they even argue with you?

    #971684

    jewish girl
    Member

    philosopher:

    every otd teen is a completely different case!! and i kno personally many cases where they dont enjoy their current lifestyle one bit but yiddishkeit just wasnt for them cuz they have suffered too much.

    #971685

    philosopher
    Member

    Philosopher, I didn’t say nor need I say that everyone of the kids I know came back. Nachas is not tied up in only returning to Yiddishkeit. Nachas is also tied up in becoming healthy, clean and sober. Nachas is tied up in knowing a child is alive and well and I am no longer waiting for a death call and I am no longer on a suicide watch.

    I’m very happy that your nachas is that these OTD’s are clean and sober but what about nachas to the Aibishter? He gave us the Torah and COMMANDED us to keep it. He warned us not to forsake it. Klal Yisroel is married to the Torah and when we forsaken it we have forsaken our bride. We have broken our bond with the Aibishter.

    Hashem has billions of non-Jews that when they are clean and sober and lead decent lives give him nachas. But not us Jews. We Jews, even if we are clean and sober and have good careers and whatever else one need to be a good citizen of the world, it is not enough. Hashem DEMANDS of us that we heed the Torah. It is certainly not a nachas for Him that there are children of His that violate the laws of Sahbbos and eat tarfos r”l.

    And yes my Nachas is also tied up in those who have returned, married, had kids, went to E”Y, back to yeshiva, etc. All sorts of nachas, b”h.

    This indeed should be you’re nachas, if you were the shaliach in that happening.

    As far as Judging is concerned you don’t need to use the word in order to judge. Your whole speech is judgment itself.

    Let’s anylyze this.

    If I say

    Rechy is going to the mall.

    In that context going means walking, driving, physically getting there.

    But if one says Rechy is going bananas then that means she is mentaly becoming wacky.

    So the same word going means can imply two different things depending on the context that you use them.

    The words, judging and respecting and disrepecting is the same thing (as are basically all words) which take on a different meaning in the contexct that you use them.

    If I say that I disrespect OTD’s – it means I disrepect them for their choices in life.

    It doesn’t mean I act in a disrespectful or demeaning manner to them.

    When I say I don’t respect my baby as of yet, it doesn’t mean I don’t respect him a human being, as a Jew, as my own flesh and blood. What I meant when I said that was that at this point in life, I he didn’t earn my respect through his actions.

    Now judging is the same thing. As far as I know humans have the bechira, the ability to choose. If we want to excuse negative actions we can excuse the likes of Hitler y”s too. Do you think Hitler wasn’t a completely insane human being? I do. And I still know he is judged by HB”H for being the murderer that he was. So not to compare, but the point is that everyone has bechirah to choose right from wrong OTD’s included. Therefore, my opinion is that nobody can use excuses for going OTD or davka doing evil.

    I have not judged OTD’s circumstances or decided if and what kind of heavenly retribution they will get. That is not my business.

    But I am allowed to have an opinion whether bechira is THE cause of OTD or not. Now you can call that judging. That’s fine with me. We all judge each others by our speach and actions.

    You can judge me as having a holier than thou attitude over OTD’s, which is true. Mitzvos make a person holy. You can judge me as conceited because I don’t agree with your viewpoints but I don’t feel that I am, I feel that I have a valid viewpoint which is different than yours.

    I am judging you that you do not understand the significance of being a frum Jew. I’m judging you of downgrading the importance of not violating halachas even if you want to gefel those who might come back one day.

    I have to go now, my baby woke up from his nap. Maybe I’ll continue my rebuttal to your post later (not that I think you’re wating for it with baited breath).

    #971686

    rt
    Participant

    these are very complex issues; I think it useful to state that the Chazon Ish zt’l says that “rasha” as termed by Chazal no longer exists in our experience. what we see today by most Yidden is tinuk shenishba.

    though I have not discussed this with any Adam Gadol (yet), I would propose that someone who is pushed away from Yiddishkeit, through legitimate circumstances (not just looking for an excuse, classic bechirah) is also bichlal tinuk shenishba in the sense that that person has been forcibly removed from authentic Yiddishkeit.

    No less than Moshe Rabbeinu himself is criticized for saying “shimu na hamorim” by the be’er & “rav lachem bnei Levi” by Korach–even though he was 100% correct in his assertions.

    Be very careful how you judge, describe, feel or whatever lashon you want to use, the neshoma of another Jew.

    Take to heart the words of Hillel-“al tadin es chavercha ad shtagiah limkomo.”

    #971687

    philosopher
    Member

    rt, what you are saying might be true, but I think it is just as dangerous to feel that one can downgrade the importance of Yiddishkeit and the chiuv of mitzvos and the ability to use our bechira, to try to get OTD’s back to the fold.

    #971688

    philosopher
    Member

    r.t., I don’t agree with your assertion that one can be “pushed” off the derech. That would take away bechira which we all have.

    I’m just agreeing to the fact that even if we may be correct, we still should not be in a judging position.

    I’m not sure how it’s apllied if when I’m writing my opinion it’s not just for the sake of blogging, but because I think if we analyze why kids go off it may help in identifying the root cause of the problem.

    But the truth is, of what help is it whether one knows it’s bechira or not?

    On the other hand, the constant pandering and lowering of our expectations of staying the course and the seriousness of leaving it, gets diluted because we are supposed to respect even those who cast off their Yiddishkeit bacause we feel they were “pushed” off and didn’t have a choice (but ironically we are supposed to respect their choices).

    You may have a point about being in judgement of OTD’s. But the message still must be clear that no one can have excuses for leaving Yiddishkeit.

    #971689

    aries2756
    Participant

    “They might not argue with you because you respect them and accept them the way they are, with their current actions so why would they even argue with you?”

    Exactly! They argue with you for the sake of arguing. With me they talk truth and emes!

    #971690

    aries2756
    Participant

    “I’m very happy that your nachas is that these OTD’s are clean and sober but what about nachas to the Aibishter? He gave us the Torah and COMMANDED us to keep it. He warned us not to forsake it. Klal Yisroel is married to the Torah and when we forsaken it we have forsaken our bride. We have broken our bond with the Aibishter.”

    I will tell you what my mother would tell you ” zei nish Gut’s farzorger”. Don’t be Hashem’s worrier! Everything you say is true and YOU are obligated to follow everything you quoted. When these children are ready to return they will take on these obligations again. As I said before it is not up to YOU to judge them. Hashem is by there side every step of their journey and Hashem is working on his relationship with them. Trust in Hashem to work it out. It is not up to you to keep score on this.

    #971692

    philosopher
    Member

    Exactly! They argue with you for the sake of arguing. With me they talk truth and emes!

    Unfortunatley I am not so naive as to believe you. If you’re chillin’ out with them, all is fine. Otherwise, a lot of OTD’s (not all of them) are absolutely not interested in truth and emes. Were your claim to be true there would not be any OTD’s after they’ve gone through their teenage years and sorted all the issues out.

    Trust in Hashem to work it out. It is not up to you to keep score on this

    Hashem is the only one appropriate enough to judge. He does not put that responsibility in our incapable hands.

    Antshuldigt, but you only see what you want to because I have repeatedly said that I’m not judging anything about them I’m just stating my opinion whether kids go off the derech because of bechira or not. In my last posts which I commented on rl’s post I did not mean the word judgement in the same context as you are.

    Philosopher, wow, you really are a judgmental jew,” I am judging you that you do not understand the significance of being a frum Jew.” You would have to assume that I am NOT a frum jew to say that I do not understand the significance of being a frum jew and that is not only an asinine assumption it is quite false and inaccurate as is your entire propaganda.

    I have never said or indicated that I thought you are not frum. One can be frum without realizing the greatness of Yiddishkeit. If I made a mistake with how I’ve really judged you, forgive me. But how can I judge you otherwise when you openly state “nachas is not tied up only in returning to Yiddishkeit” and the rest of what you stated in that paragraph? I don’t know , maybe we just have different opnions of what the word nachas means.

    So if you spout how much you disdain what the OTD children are doing because it is against halacha then YOU yourself should refrain from breaking Hashem’s mitzvos and going against Halacha

    And could you tell me exactly which halacha I’m breaking?

    If you are talking about dan l’kaf zchus, I suggest you open a sefer and look through the halahcas.

    Someone who openly and continuously sin one does not need to be dan l’kaf zchus.

    I see you realize that I don’t disdain these OTD’s themselves as I have said I love them, but I don’t respect them because of their actions, but I am puzzled as to why you as a Jew who understands the significence of being a frum Jew would not disdain what OTD’s are doing, eating treifos and being mechalel Shabbos, but instead have nachas when they are only clean and sober.

    #971693

    emoticon613
    Member

    i hope for your sake and your children’s sake that all of your children will be clearheaded teenagers really.

    because “nachas is not tied up only in returning to yiddishkeit” is a very very true statement.

    the first step an OTD kid makes to return is very often being clean, sober, or whatever else they were doing that isn’t what a Jew should be doing. and the only way that that will become ‘the first step’ is if those close to him show him that he’s giving them NACHAS, even if it’s not necessarily the most yiddishe nachas you can think of.

    on the other hand, if all you do is say ‘sorry joe, love you and all, but you’re still not religious -‘ it’s most probably going to be the end of his return journey before it really began. chas veshalom.

    #971694

    rt
    Participant

    philosopher- chas v’sholom that we should downgrade the importance (the absolute necessity) of kiyum haTorah! I’m just saying we have to look at it from their viewpoint to try to understand where they’re coming from.

    chanoch l’naar al pi darko-we all experienced a process of chinuch; OTD’s when they are ready, must begin over in a sense.

    Tzadik sheva yipol v’kam- Rav Hutner zt’l says that this does not mean simply to keep trying, rather to be a tzadik, you MUST fall in order to grow.

    #971695

    Max Well
    Member

    philosopher: Yasher Koach for speaking Torah true hashkofos.

    #971696

    philosopher
    Member

    i hope for your sake and your children’s sake that all of your children will be clearheaded teenagers really.

    I hope and pray this will be so, and I’ve also made a very big personal sacrifice for my children’s chinuch because of that, but ultimately “everything is in the hands of shomayim chutz yiras shemayim.”

    because “nachas is not tied up only in returning to yiddishkeit” is a very very true statement.

    If Yiddishkeit is of paramount importance to a Jew, then that is an absolutely abhorrent statement.

    the first step an OTD kid makes to return is very often being clean, sober, or whatever else they were doing that isn’t what a Jew should be doing. and the only way that that will become ‘the first step’ is if those close to him show him that he’s giving them NACHAS, even if it’s not necessarily the most yiddishe nachas you can think of.

    WE must remember that in all steps that we take we need not gefel for human beings, we need to gefel for the Aibishter and if for the Aibishter it’s not a nachas for that a Jew is sinning, and the Aibishter explicitly says so numerous times in the Torah and we are in golus because of sins, it should not nachas for us either. If an OTD kid or adult for that matter is on the road to teshuva and step one is becoming clean and sober, then there is indeed much nachas in that. But when that’s where it ends and an OTD goes on to lead an OTD life then there is no nachas for Hashem and neither should there be for God fearing Jews, until the OTD is on the real path to teshuva.

    #971697

    philosopher
    Member

    on the other hand, if all you do is say ‘sorry joe, love you and all, but you’re still not religious -‘ it’s most probably going to be the end of his return journey before it really began. chas veshalom.

    I do not agree with that statement.

    Love, without respecting sin can bring a person back.

    Anyway the bottom line is we can work today untill the end of time, neither love nor acceptance can bring an OTD person back, they come back if and when they decide to.

    #971698

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    One must earn respect, it is not a right.

    I am happy to respect people for being people. This is a cliche which is easily repeated and completely untrue.

    #971699

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    philosopher: I do think you are going too far. One’s upbringing is able to have very negative and lasting results on one’s psyche. To simply state that people in these situations should “snap out of it”, “deal with it”, or whatever, is not realistic.

    Imagine a teenager who was heavily criticized by her parents and made to think that her own feelings and wants were irrelevant. She was told that she must live exactly as her parents wished or she would be rejected by them and would be a rasha.

    Don’t you agree that at the very least she is LESS responsible than other people?

    And if she is less responsible, could it not be feasible that she is fulfilling her responsibilities in a better manner than some people who you deem to be doing the right things?

    thanks for the italics advice, I did it.

    #971700

    Max Well
    Member

    popa: Consider the possibility (if not likelihood) that her parents were correct.

    #971701

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Consider the possibility (if not likelihood) that her parents were correct.

    The possibility of what? That failing to live to the exact dictates of your parents makes you a rasha?

    Sorry. Doesn’t cut it in my book.

    The Wolf

    #971702

    WIY
    Member

    Max well:

    Many OTD kids are due to parents who are unloving, too demanding and the like. There’s a concept in Mishlei from Shlomo Hamelech Chanoch Lanaar al Pi darko. If you have a sensitive kid and you constantly put him/her down and speak to him/her negatively its a virtual guarantee that the child will have very low self esteem and will have issues with religion and likely go OTD or tread very close. Parents don’t OWN their kids. Their children are a matanah from Hashem or rather a Pikadon. If you mistreat your kid there will be hell to pay no pun intended. You as a parent are responsible if the kid goes off the derech and all his averos will be on your cheshbon.

    #971703

    emoticon613
    Member

    philosopher – i did not talk about respecting the sin. i talked about showing the kid acceptance even if he hasn’t made a spiritual step yet.

    love and acceptence makes in a thousand times easier for a kid to come back, and even just to make that first step. it’s not going to cut it to decide, i’ll start showing him respect when he ‘decides’ to come back and does something about it – because it’s much much more likely to happen only after he’s shown acceptance.

    i personally cannot guarantee where i would be right now had my grandmother not shown complete acceptance and love for me whatever i was doing that wasn’t according to the Torah.

    #971704

    philosopher
    Member

    One’s upbringing is able to have very negative and lasting results on one’s psyche.To simply state that people in these situations should “snap out of it”, “deal with it”, or whatever, is not realistic.

    I definitely agree with you on that and never said otherwise. Kids and teens who have been abused can be angry and confused, scarred and wounded and I never said otherwise.

    Don’t you agree that at the very least she is LESS responsible than other people?

    I’m not God and don’t have to agree or disagree, God is the Judge.

    And if she is less responsible, could it not be feasible that she is fulfilling her responsibilities in a better manner than some people who you deem to be doing the right things?

    Hashem has explicitly said that we cannot sin and there will be repercussions if we do. Some have unfortunetly forgotton that we are in golus and why we are in golus.

    Those who struggle in trying to define Yiddishkeit for themselves, they don’t respect their teachers and parents but still want to do the right thing they keep Shabbos and basic halachos, yes they deserve a lot of respect.

    But those who have cast off every vestige of Yiddishkeit, trample on the very basic of halachas, how in the world can one say they are fulfilling their responsibilies?

    You as a parent are responsible if the kid goes off the derech and all his averos will be on your cheshbon.

    After the bar mitzvah age, a child is responsible for their own actions. The parents will not have to give din v’cheshbon for the child.

    If a parent abused or mistreated a child, they will give din v’cheshbon for that.

    i did not talk about respecting the sin

    Some people have talked about respecting others choice even if they are sinning or nachas even if they are not frum.

    i talked about showing the kid acceptance even if he hasn’t made a spiritual step yet.

    love and acceptence makes in a thousand times easier for a kid to come back, and even just to make that first step.

    Love is very important – an OTD should never feel shunned. About acceptance – I agree they need to feel accepted as people, but not their sinful actions.

    A frum Jew cannot respect and accept sinful actions.

    And as I said before, not respecting sinful choices of OTD’s does not mean we can act in a disrespectful or demeaning fashion with them. We need to act respectfuly and not reverently as some are wont to do, as we do with every Jew.

    But we should not and could not respect or accept any sinful choices that they make.

    #971705

    oomis
    Participant

    I subscribe to the belief that “M’toch shelo lishma, ba lishma,” I have said it repeatedly. When dealing with OTD kids, boy or girl, divrei tochacha b’nachas nishmaim. If you come down on them or approach them all judgmental a breathing fiery kana-us, all you will do is be marchik them even more. And I would tend to feel that that probably would be an aveira.

    #971706

    Yanky R.
    Member

    Let’s not sugarcoat it. It doesn’t help anyone, most certainly not an OTD person. A teen who goes OTD will roast like a toast in gehenim. Are there mitigating factors? Perhaps. But not excuses. Will someone else who pushed him have hell to pay also? Very possibly. But that won’t necessarily save the teen from the fire.

    When you sugarcoat this, you essentially kasher going OTD.

    #971707

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yanky R.

    And with your approach, you’re ensuring that there is little possibility that they return to the derech.

    The Wolf

    #971708

    Yanky R.
    Member

    Incorrect The Wolf. Offering excuses, and sugarcoating the truth in fact is what makes OTD people think its okay being OTD, and discourages their return to sanity.

    #971710

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    So, you think the key to bringing people back to the derech is to tell them that they’re going to hell?

    The Wolf

    #971711

    Yanky R.
    Member

    It very well may put the fear of G-d back in them.

    #971712

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Very well. Do me a favor, Yanky. Stay out of kiruv. You obviously understand little of human psychology, self-defense mechanisms and incentives and rewards.

    The Wolf

    #971713

    Yanky R.
    Member

    Sorry Wolf, my succesful Kiruv work must continue. You of course are free to choose your own course. Its called bechira.

    #971714

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I highly doubt that with your attitude you are successful in kiruv.

    As for me, I will do kiruv my way. I have always believed that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. And I have always believed that you accomplish far more with love than you do with hate.

    The Wolf

    #971715

    Yanky R.
    Member

    I doubt _you_ have much success with that dismissal attitude of the Emes.

    Baruch Hashem I have a lot to write home about in this inyan.

    #971716

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    What dismissal of Emes? I don’t validate what other people do — I just don’t yell at them that they’re going to hell for their actions.

    But what the heck — so you take your way and I’ll take mine. I believe mine is far superior.

    The Wolf

    #971717

    Yanky R.
    Member

    You’re sugarcoating that gehenim doesn’t apply. With that attitude, not only is it inferior and untrue, it is no true kiruv.

    The Emes is always the most sucessful tool in Kiruv. I can say as much with much successful experience.

    #971718

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You’re sugarcoating that gehenim doesn’t apply. With that attitude, not only is it inferior and untrue, it is no true kiruv.

    No, I’ve just found that building people up works far better at influincing their behavior than knocking them down.

    If you feel that yelling at them that they’re going to hell is the ideal tool for returning people to avodas Hashem, then we just have to agree to disagree. As you said, you have bechira to choose your way. I choose mine. I choose to encourage rather than discourage. I choose to include rather than exclude. I choose to bring people in through love rather than fear and hate.

    If you choose differently, then so be it. We just have to part ways at that point – there is really nothing further for us to discuss on the subject.

    The Wolf

    #971719

    philosopher
    Member

    oomis, we are not breathing fiery kanuas, however as Yanky R. said we cannot sugarcoat the truth.

    We don’t need to put on a angry demeanor when interacting with OTD, they do need to feel loved, but they also need to know that they CANNOT be respected until they have EARNED respect.

    Would anyone respect a frum person who is rude to others? Well why not, they can’t control themselves. Who said only OTD can’t control themselves? Doesn’t anybody think that frum people don’t have challenges as well? So let’s respect those frum people who abuse others, or behave in any other form of indecent behavour and we should be excused as well. In fact all of humanity should be excused for any sinful behavour.

    After all, we are all genetically predisposed to certain things, we have all been influenced by out surroundings. I don’t think it’s fair that only the OTD’s get that privilege.

    Let’s give this privilege of excuses to all of humanity as well.

    As the liberals do.

    #971720

    oomis
    Participant

    Only Hashem knows who is going to gehenim and who is not. The rasha can be mekabeil olam haba in an instant.

    Yanky, you may be a very ehrliche yid, but you are not the yid that Aharon Hakohein was, and you are DEFINITELY not the type of person who would succeed in kiruv work in my neighborhood. Put the fear of G-d into them??? PUT THE LOVE OF G-D INTO THEM. And please do not call yourself a mekareiv.

    #971721

    Yanky R.
    Member

    Wolf, I will not apologize for my highly succesful Kiruv Richokim avodah. The Emes always prevails. Hiding from it is no mehalach.

    My beloved brothers who have returned (or joined for the first time) Avodas Hashem Yisborach, have built up taira Yiddishe Mishpochos for doros. The only thing knocked down is their former aveiras. The Ahavas Yisroel instilled in them is truly remarkable. They indeed are an encouragement for future returnees.

    #971722

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I will not apologize

    Yanky,

    I didn’t ask you to apologize. I said we simply have to agree to disagree. You go your way and I’ll go mine.

    ??-????? ??????, ???-????? ????????

    The Wolf

    #971725

    Health
    Participant

    Yanky -While I don’t agree with your approach, if it’s working why not? But I do believe the others on this post, do nothing to mekarev rechokim and use the attidude of “let them come to me”, as an excuse.

    #971729

    ambush
    Participant

    Rabbosai…

    let’s keep our posts true to the title of this thread:

    Respecting People

    #971730

    oomis
    Participant

    “But I do believe the others on this post, do nothing to mekarev rechokim and use the attidude of “let them come to me”, as an excuse.”

    Where do you get that idea? That’s a rather broad statement of assumption, with no facts in evidence to back it up. Do you personally know each and every one of the CR posters?

    #971731

    WIY
    Member

    Philosopher:

    I think that something needs to be cleared up. I believe we need to define respect.

    Respect is a concept called Kovod Habriyos. A Jew has to have respect for all human

    beings including non Jews. Every human is a Tzelem Elokim. We were all formed in the image of G-d. Therefore there is an obligation to respect the G-dliness residing in all humans. There are countless stories of Gedolim who went out of their way to be nice and friendly and even to do favors and give of their time and advice to their non Jewish neighbors.

    A Yid deserves even more than that just for the fact that he’s or she’s a Jew and your brother/sister.

    There’s a higher respect which is generally reserved for ones boss or someone who is higher up then them or of greater stature like a Rabbi.

    I’m not sure how you define respect or what respect you are actually talking of however one thing is clear, any Jew even an OTD Jew needs to be treated respectfully. You may not disrespect, make a disapproving face, embarass, talk down to, hurt or even THINK badly about another Jew. If you feel like interacting, you give a smile and say hello and treat them like anyone else. You can disapprove of what they do but you can’t and are not allowed to judge them they sense it right away and all you have done is push them away. When interacting and doing Kiruv one has to exhibit lots of love and acceptance. If you aren’t sincere then don’t bother you will do more harm than good.

    #971732

    Health
    Participant

    Oomis -Because not one poster except for Aries have said what they do to Mekarev rechokim.

    #971733

    oomis
    Participant

    I invite them to my home for Shabbos meals, to start.

    When I was in College, I used to crochet Yarmulkes (so the frum kids would know that I was one of them), and I made over two dozen for guys who promised to wear them if I made them. Out of the dozens, I know for a fact at least 7 who not only wore them, but are frum today (I do not take credit for it at all – these guys started to come to Jewish-oriented events at school after they started wearing the yarmulkes, and someone good in kiruv chaaped them).

    the best way to be mekareiv someone is by example. When someone OTD or never-frum, sees a frum person being a really good guy, being a wonderful neighbor, NOT being judgmental, it opens up some emotional floodgates in them that can lead to kiruv. When I had a neighbor who was sitting shiva, though not frum, I cooked a meal for her, and arranged for other neighbors do the same. Maybe she will never be frum, but she has a lot more respect for frumkeit now than she did before. Small steps can lead to traversing miles.

    #971734

    philosopher
    Member

    I’m not sure how you define respect or what respect you are actually talking of however one thing is clear, any Jew even an OTD Jew needs to be treated respectfully. You may not disrespect, make a disapproving face, embarass, talk down to, hurt or even THINK badly about another Jew. If you feel like interacting, you give a smile and say hello and treat them like anyone else. You can disapprove of what they do but you can’t and are not allowed to judge them they sense it right away and all you have done is push them away.

    It could be from all my posts on this subject on this and another thread you might have missed something that I wrote a few times about acting in a respectful manner to OTD’s.

    Here’s just one example I wrote in one before my last post:

    “And as I said before, not respecting sinful choices of OTD’s does not mean we can act in a disrespectful or demeaning fashion with them. We need to act respectfuly and not reverently as some are wont to do, as we do with every Jew”

    #971735

    philosopher
    Member

    WIY, Actually I realized with the example I brought that some may have gotten the wrong message than what I intended because I used the word “and”…and not reverently as some are wont to do…

    I meant to write “but”…but not reverently as some are wont to do…

    #971736

    WIY
    Member

    Philosopher,

    Might I suggest that someone who did not receive enough respect growing up may need an extra dose of respect to balance them out until they find their way back? When a person isnt respected, they tend to not respect themselves which leads to all kinds of problems. The way to help and heal such a person is to show them lots of respect. There are many stories of Rabbeim who had students who werent doing to well and every time the kid asked a question in the learning the Rebbi acted as though it was a great question. He gave the kid extra respect and kavod and eventually the kid went on to excel in his learning.

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