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“I was very impressed with that last one though it did take a while to get through all of it”
And I’m very impressed that you read through all of it.
Thanks, golfer!
Sam2: Thank you for the correction.
However, the elevation in these circles, of this allegedly Jewish value of loving E”Y, to a very prominent theological role, as I stated, is clear.
The last statement in the third perek of Shekalim:
??? ??? ?”? (????) ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ?”? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???
Sefer Chareidim Perek 59:
????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?”?
???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????
?????? ??? ???????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????
???’ ?? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?”? ????? ??? ???????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???”? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????”? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?’ ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??”? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??’ ?? ??? ??? ????? ?”? ?’ ????? ??? ???”? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ?”? ?????? ????? ??????? ??? ??”? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?’ ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?’ ????? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??’ ??? ??? ??”? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???”? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????
???? ???”? ????? ???”? ???? ????? ?”? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??”? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?’ ????? ?????
PBA:
I have already conceded far more than you asked for: in response to your earlier quotes, such as the one mentioning “chiba”, I noted that it would be understandable if one were to feel joy at the ability to better observe mitzvos, etc. provided that it were better for his particular avodas Hashem to be there.
Regarding your line, “Yeah, also that there’s a mitzva to…and all that. Is shaking a lulav for those whose avodas Hashem will be bettered by it? ” This is not only “mean” and mocking, but absurd as well.
As mentioned, living in E”Y in these times is, at most, an optional mitzva. Again, even Rabbi Schachter from YU states in that Israeli Independence Day lecture from this past year, that if a person’s ruchnius, children’s chinuch, etc. would suffer from going to live in E”Y, then the person should stay in America and NOT move to E”Y.
Lulav, of course, has no such issues. Neither do Shabbos or Tefillin for that matter. Yet, as I pointed out, nobody has claimed that their school has a “learn to love tefillin” program. So your mocking comparison to lulav seems to simply be for the sake of being mean and mocking, not for any good reason that I can deduce.
Once again, even Rabbi Schachter from YU agrees that there are those who should NOT move to E”Y.
So, once again, what source in Chazal can you find for the practice of arbitrarily and deliberately instilling in anyone an arbitrary love for E”Y, as, for example, mentioned by a poster in this thread that she is “working on Ahavat E”Y” in Seminary this year?
This question, in my humble view, is particularly important considering, as I pointed out earlier that instilling this love of E”Y can, in certain cases, be counter-productive and spiritually damaging because a person might then allow that love to take precedence over his needs in ruchnius, etc. if his particular avodas Hashem would in fact be better outside E”Y.
Here is the Sefer Charedim PAA referred to:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37325&st=&pgnum=197&hilite=
Hakatan, give it up. You’re wrong on this one.
Thanks, DaasYochid. (Although perhaps I should take this to mean that there is a concern that I misquoted it/quoted it out of context: “Some (certainly not all) of the quotes you’ve brought from seforim, IMHO were not meant in the context you put them in”)
(Apparently you can’t copy the link address on Internet Explorer.)
The version on hebrewbooks is arranged differently than the version which I quoted from, hence the discrepancy in chapter numbers (and that explains why I couldn’t find it on hebrewbooks).
Once I’m quoting sources, here are some Talmudic statements found at the end of Kesubos:
????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??????
?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???
?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???
???? ?????? ???”? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???
Alshich Ruth 1:6:
??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??
???? ??? ?????
?????? ?? ?????? ???
“I’ve never heard of an optional mitzva”
R’ Moshe held that it was an optional mitzvah. But those who disagreed with him make your point, that we’ve never heard of an optional mitzvah.
By the way, does anyone know why hebrewbooks is missing chelek 3 of the Igros Moshe?
Popa, ????? ??? ????? ???? for ????.
🙂
PAA (and others):
Even according to this Sefer Chareidim, he doesn’t propose to create an unhealthy balance between “chibas E”Y” and the mitzvos. He doesn’t write that one should sacrifice his ruchnius for the sake of “chibas E”Y” or living there.
My question in my previous post remains.
Again, even Rabbi Schachter of YU noted that if a person’s ruchnius, chidren’s chinuch, etc. will be better outside of E”Y then he should NOT move to E”Y but remain in chutz laAretz.
The bottom line is that it would be foolish for one’s spiritual health and priorities to instill “Ahavat E”Y” without first consulting a posek or LOR to determine if such a thing should be done and, if it should be done, then by what parameters.
he doesn’t propose to create an unhealthy balance between “chibas E”Y” and the mitzvos. He doesn’t write that one should sacrifice his ruchnius for the sake of “chibas E”Y” or living there.
Did anyone on this thread propose such a thing?
You are so wrong, HaKatan.
It is not necessary to consult a posek or one’s Rav to determine whether it is proper to instill in our own hearts, or our children’s, a deep love for Eretz Yisrael.
If someone is considering a move from chutz la’Aretz to E”Y (or a move from E”Y to Chu”l, or even a move from Antwerp to Cleveland) it is wise and proper to have a discussion first with a Rav who is familiar with the circumstances regarding the person considering the move, and his family if he’s fortunate not to be moving alone.
PBA: Really? You’ve never heard of a Mitzvah Kiyumis?
HaKatan: Why? If one is of the opinion that living is E”Y is a Chiyuv, why wouldn’t one be obligated to give up their Ruchniyus for it? If taking a Lulav hurts my Ruchniyus, does that give me a P’tur from taking Lulav?
HaKatan: Why? If one is of the opinion that living is E”Y is a Chiyuv, why wouldn’t one be obligated to give up their Ruchniyus for it? If taking a Lulav hurts my Ruchniyus, does that give me a P’tur from taking Lulav?
I assume Hakatan is not going with the shittah that it’s chiyuvis. Still, why the harping on the possible negative? Chibas EY is a positive, and should be cultivated.
Using Sam’s example of lulav, say I have a kosher lulav, but can get a nicer one, but I would need to drive for two hours to get it. I would miss my chavrusah or anger my wife who needs help making Yom Tov. Should I get it? Likely not, but still, hiddur mitzvah is an important value, one in which I try to be mechanech my children, even if sometimes there are other priorities.
Poppa Bar Abba: I’ve never heard of an optional mitzva. If you mean to say that it is balanced by other considerations, that is one thing. But if you mean that one can just choose to not do it, that seems odd…
DY: Popa, ????? ??? ????? ???? for ????.
Poppa Bar Abba: I meant leshitasi.
Was that a referrence to http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/are-women-reallyjewish?
The bottom line is that it would be foolish for one’s spiritual health and priorities to instill “Ahavat E”Y” without first consulting a posek or LOR to determine if such a thing should be done and, if it should be done, then by what parameters.
If you don’t agree to the premise that it is a Mitzvah Kiyumis, and you are working with this Mitzvah Chiyuvis, then obviously one would have to sacrifice everything for the Mitzvah.
You are not the first person I have heard like that. Many people seem to think that Yiddishkeit is all about Hergesh (emotion), and about making you feel spiritually fulfilled. What does Halacha matter as long as you feel in the spirit of things? (I know you didn’t go that far!)
That attitude is totally wrong. Torah must dictate our life, not society and social norms. What you decide is optimal for Chinuch cannot change Torah. If you decide Shechita/Milah is cruel, you still gotta do it.
If you decide Shechita/Milah is cruel, you still gotta do it.
You’ve also got to adjust your attitude.
DY – Of course, but my point was that whatever your attitude is, it is irrelevant when we talk about Halacha!
I once heard that schitah doesn’t hurt the animal at all, (but that is only by kosher animals)
The act of shechitah itself doesn’t hurt the animal, but that ignores the months or years of suffering that the animals experience while waiting to be slaughtered.
golfer, yekke2 and others:
It’s surprising to me that your posts are directed at me rather than in concert with what I am saying.
Once again:
There is certainly no practical universal obligation to live in E”Y unlike, say, Shabbos or Milah.
Regarding whatever mitzva there may be to do so, even Rabbi Herschel Schachter said explicitly that one should NOT live in E”Y if doing so will negatively affect his/family’s ruchnius.
Therefore, instilling an arbitrary non-rabbinically advised “Ahavat E”Y” which, again, (ahava) is NOT a mitzva, is spiritually reckless, for a number of reasons.
PBA:
I suppose one has to channel that love appropriately, like anything else. Perhaps this love can be a catalyst to reflect about the many terrible things that Zionism has brought to Hashem’s holy people, His holy Torah and His holy land so one would instead daven for the true geulah BB”A.
But your question is not a contradiction to my post; it is simply a matter of how to channel this natural love into a Torah-observant manner, just as one needs to channel other things into a Torah-observant manner.
This is something to discuss with your LOR.
Again, since instilling an arbitrary non-rabbinically advised “Ahavat E”Y” which, again, (ahava) is NOT a mitzva, is spiritually reckless, for a number of reasons, one should consult an LOR as to how to avoid these dangers.
Did you consult your LOR before speaking negatively about ahavas E.Y.?
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