February 26, 2009 6:02 am at 6:02 am #589499sleeplessmomMember
This is the week the girls received their acceptance or rejection letters to attend seminary in Israel. We applied to a couple of seminaries. With the acceptance letter came along a financial contract stating the tuition for the year, which is $20,000. The teachers and administration in the high school add to the pressure of sending the girls to Israel. In addition to this we have a son who wants to learn in Yeshiva in Israel. We know its a wonderful learning experience but with the economic crisis how do we make our decision on what to do. Do the children decide because of peer pressure, or do we, the parents, decide based on the financial status. Should both go or none go? In addition, if We say no, then they will feel that since most, if not all of their class will be going, they would not want to be left out, or not to miss a whole amazing year spent in Israel. How do parents deal with the resentment for not sending their children to Israel.February 26, 2009 6:16 am at 6:16 am #639048JosephParticipant
What conceivable Torah benefit is there to send a girl to seminary in Israel?February 26, 2009 6:26 am at 6:26 am #639053
sleeplessmom: wow!! yikes!!!February 26, 2009 6:34 am at 6:34 am #639054PhyllisMember
sleeplessmom, you are not alone. My sister in law wants to go to sem in Israel too. My Mother in law saw the price and called up. They are willing to cut the price, in fact I think the reason the price is so high is so that they have room to cut it for those that need it. Besides for that my sister in law is getting some scholarships which helps. I am not saying that this makes it cheap but it helps out.February 26, 2009 6:53 am at 6:53 am #639056strivingMember
“What conceivable Torah benefit is there to send a girl to seminary in Israel?”
Granted, the year in Israel isn’t for everyone, but for many girls it is a life-changing year and reaps beautiful Torah benefits and rewards.
Eretz Yisroel is a makom of kedusha that catalyzes spiritual growth!February 26, 2009 7:32 am at 7:32 am #639057
i don’t wanna sound negitive, but for some israel is a place that they go down hill!!!!February 26, 2009 9:20 am at 9:20 am #639058NobodyMember
I note the word ‘Wants’
Wants indicates a firm desire to. A great many of us want to do many things and go to many places but are unable to for one reason or another.
There is a great pressure on parents to send their girls to a seminary in Israel but I believe those with the right hashkofo and attitide and respect to their parents would fully understand that ‘Wants’ is not the way to go about things.
There are seminaries all over Europe whose fees are substantially less than $20,000 more like half that. Many girls from the US go to these seminaries. Therfore whilst I hear your worries I would rather sit down and talk to the girl in a mature manner explaining the cost implications and other options available.
At the same time it is about time schools stop preaching to the girls that a year in Israel is a must. These young impressionable girls leave school in the belief that without going to Israel their future is doomed!February 26, 2009 11:27 am at 11:27 am #639060
>>i don’t wanna sound negitive, but for some israel is a place that they go down hill!!!! <<
Please show me a place where people don’t go downhill. Does NY not have “Kids at risk?”February 26, 2009 11:37 am at 11:37 am #639061
>>Wants indicates a firm desire to. A great many of us want to do many things and go to many places but are unable to for one reason or another.
There is a great pressure on parents to send their girls to a seminary in Israel but I believe those with the right hashkofo and attitide and respect to their parents would fully understand that ‘Wants’ is not the way to go about things.<<
There are many different “wants”. There is a difference between “I want to go jet skiing” and “I want to learn an extra hour at night”. Many of these girls “want” to go, not for the “experience” but because they want to learn and grow spiritually, knowing that the Kedusha of Eretz Yisroel offers things not found anywhere else on the planet.
Also, why does one have the “right hashkafa” for giving in to this type of spiritual “want?” Just the opposite, give in on the gashmius, and fight for your spiritual growth?
(The above comments were made for girls going for the right reasons, please refrain from arguing using the “girls going with the flow” as your proof)February 26, 2009 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #639062gavra_at_workParticipant
Well said (as usual).
Sleepless: Why don’t you have your daughter place it on student loans (if its accredited). If she wants it so much, have her pay for it.
If you can’t afford it, why in the world are you thinking of paying for them? Is it fair to the rest of your (assuming you have more) children for them to have to cut back for the sake of these? Or is it right that you will pay less tuition due to sending your child to EY?
Good luck whatever you end up doing. You may build your child better and help them in the process of becoming a mentch by saying “NO” than any seminary could ever do.February 26, 2009 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #639063SJSinNYCMember
Sleeplessmom, I think you and your husband need to sit down and discuss the financial side of it first. Can you even afford to send one? Can you afford to send both? What does this mean for the rest of the family?
When you figure out if you can even afford to send one or both (lets assume you can for a moment), then sit down with your kids. Have them discuss why they want to go to Israel or do they just want to further their education?
I personally hate when people say “I am going to Israel to grow.” Does growth not happen in America? Doesn’t it start right now if you actually want to change? I am assuming that you are a nice frum family and that there arent really dangers that your kids need to leave your house to grow in Torah and Mitzvos.
I like Gavra’s suggestion of having your kids pays for the experience – at least discuss it with them. They may not want to go once they realize that its their $20,000 they are spending. If you can only afford to send one, perhaps offer to pay for half of each and they will come up with the other half?
This is a luxury, albeit a really wonderful one. Good luck with the tough decision.February 26, 2009 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #639064NobodyMember
JayMatt19 – I want to learn an extra hour every night can also be translated as I want to learn an extra hour every night but needs arise and I cannot as I need to prioritise such as work to support my family.
With the right hashkofo a person can learn anywhere and grow spiritually anywhere and whilst in an ideal world it may wonderful to learn in Eretz Yisroel children need to understand that this is not always possible.
Furthermore I never said anything about girls going with the flow.February 26, 2009 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #639065
Sounds like from the letters in the Yated that between the rising truition costs and the scary nisyonos now caused by going to Israel, the whole “Israel” scene is being reconsidered. Israel now is not Israel when I went.February 26, 2009 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #639067
Nobody, I never said you said anything about going with the flow. I was referring to OP’s comment “if We say no, then they will feel that since most, if not all of their class will be going, they would not want to be left out”February 26, 2009 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #639068
“What conceivable Torah benefit is there to send a girl to seminary in Israel? “
for the first time in two years i disagree with joseph.
all the girls i know who spent a year or more in a makom Kedushah, in the land of Kedusha, in Yerushalayim, the city of Kedusha, in an environment of Yiddishkeit, with far less exposure to goyish media and influences, learning Torah Hashkafa, growing in Yiddishkeit along with close friends, sharing experiences of growth, were profoundly affected in a deep manner. it gave them a foundation strongly rooted in Yiddishkeit which improved their life for the years following that year. this includes my three daughters-in-law, and many of their friends, and other girls i know.
it’s not so much the learning in seminary (which can also be wonderful, or not, depending on the seminary) but it’s the year breathing the air and Neshama of Eretz Yisroel, meeting the Kosel, seeing Holy Eretz Yisroel Yiddin, feeling a belonging to your People, being closer to Hashem, performing the Mitzvohs of The Land.February 26, 2009 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #639069tzippiMember
You know, parents, it’s a bit late. You let the kids apply to these seminaries and got their hopes up. Unless you suffered a personal financial downturn between then and now, you have to deal with this. I wish you all the best, been there done that and B”H we’ve seen good peiros.February 26, 2009 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #639070
feivel, there is definately a certain amount of gain in seminary in Israel, but unfortunately there is a too big of a number of the girls that go and revel in the freedom on the streets of yerushalayim and ben yehuda.
Especially now with the economic situation as bad as it is, is it worth it for parents to spend/borrow that kind of money and take that risk with their daughters neshoma?February 26, 2009 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #639071
i guess it depends on the girl
i feel very fortunate that my 3 Kallahs had that year
i have a son, went to Neve Tzion, in Telzstone, spent a lot of the time reveling on ben yehuda street, nevertheless Eretz Yisroel and his Rabbaim had a profound impact on him. he has been living, learning full time, (and i mean full time)in Yerushalayim ever since.
“is it worth it for parents to spend/borrow that kind of money and take that risk with their daughters neshoma? “
what kind of risk will that Neshama be in, in an american city for that year?February 26, 2009 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #639072just meParticipant
Children can get into trouble in any city in the world, but when you take an 18 year old and put her (or him) in a situation where she doesn’t have the same kind of supervisioun as she did at home and weekends there is very minimal supervision SOMETIMES children do things they wouldn’t do at home. You have to know your child before you send her/him across the globe.February 26, 2009 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #639074chillmasterMember
hey ppl im a gut that got back from israel a few years ago and the truth is good girls may look for trouble but there are very few like that the ones that r serious good girls wen they leave usually come back better. the question is y do the schools have a right to charge so much money??
can u actually tell me it costs 20,000 a year to educate a girl. kepp in mind they dont provide food on shabbas and they dont feed them or provide classes for the MONTH of succus, pesach and the whole summer. they only have classes 9.5 months . does it really costs that much money per child?
people used to joke about opening up a seminary as a business but its sadly true that its a true money maker. parents have to get together and call together all the “big brooklyn Rabbis” and have them address the situation. the rabbis are there wen it comes to concerts nad other stupid things but were r they wen it comes to childrens education? its like the “wall of blue” no cop will get another one in trouble rabbis watch each others back the same wayFebruary 26, 2009 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #639075
feivel, how long was your son there for?
I chose not to go to Israel for sem partly because of the financial aspect but mostly because I knew myself and that I could be very attracted to trouble so I wanted to avoid that whole field. Instead I went to a half-day seminary in town, worked in the afternoon, and was in college at night. I didn’t have a second to breathe and no time to get into trouble and b”h I had a very successful year and grew up.
My friends came back a year later and they were all different, some girls really changed in their hashkofos and frumkeit, some just stayed the same and had a great relaxing year with no responsibilities and good lectures, and a few unfortunately did not have good experiences and were able to do whatever they felt like and therefore came back as totally different people.
When I saw some of the girls that changed for the worst my immediate thought went to the 25,000 dollars that were down the drain. That money could’ve been saved and used towards their wedding, future apt…but instead they came back with absolutely nothing.
For those that are thinking of sending your daughter to Israel, please please make sure she is strong enough to withstand the nisyonos going on there, and if you have even the slightest doubt then keep her somewhere closer to home where there is less freedom! ex: yavne, detroit, lakewood…February 26, 2009 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #639076
he was there for close to a year when he started “turning around”
stayed there another year, then a third year as a “mentor” to troubled boys.
he’s now seriously and with great Simcha learning in Kollel, with his Kallah and one year old boy. he’s been in Eretz Yisroel now a total of maybe eight years.February 26, 2009 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #639077
Makes sense, most boys do that. But girls however don’t have that long, In the short year the girls have, they need to accomplish EVERYTHING. Most girls don’t have 3 years.February 27, 2009 2:29 am at 2:29 am #639078JosephParticipant
“for the first time in two years i disagree with joseph.”
I do allow, in my graciousness, one disagreement per year, per person. So Feivel, you’re still good, and still even have one extra-credit carried over from last year when you never disagreed with me. 🙂 But in all seriousness, I do appreciate your strong vote of confidence.
My question above, indeed was too strong, and I made an incorrect point that there is never a benefit. In fact it is beneficial for the right girls, as you well said Eretz Yisroel is inherently kodosh right in the very air that is breathed in the holy land.
My concern is, as myshadow and others above have pointed out, the inherent dangers for the wrong person to be sent there without the proper supervision. Too many go there, it seems to me, for fun and games and not for the kedusha. This can, and is, detrimental to the neshomo. Additionally, (and the financial cost of going is a factor) the benefit going to EY is usually far greater spiritually for boys (that it is appropriate for) that go to learn Torah in EY, than for girls. This point I’ve heard from those far greater than I, and is not my own chiddush.February 27, 2009 5:07 am at 5:07 am #639079qwertyuiopMember
asdfghjkl: it depends on the kid, some go up hill.$February 27, 2009 6:57 am at 6:57 am #639080
qwertyuiop: yes, but i was just stating a fact that some could fall too in israel!!!February 27, 2009 8:25 am at 8:25 am #639081qwertyuiopMember
asdfghjkl: that’s true.$February 27, 2009 8:27 am at 8:27 am #639082
qwertyuiop: yup yup!!!!February 27, 2009 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #639083
For once Joseph agrees with me. nice!February 27, 2009 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #639084squeakParticipant
Isn’t someone supposed to say now “Moshiach must be coming”?February 27, 2009 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #639086shindyMember
Hey, I also have a girl going to seminary and it is $17,000, others are charging $16,000. It is a lot of money, and I agree with the other posters, that it is a luxury. I think that the high schools should guide the girls and parents on how to apply to get financial aid.
Sleepless mom, is the seminary asking for $20,000 taking them on a trip to Europe before pesach? Just wondering why your seminary is three thousand more.March 1, 2009 2:53 am at 2:53 am #639087
In the last 16 months, half the world’s wealth has completely gone up in smoke, and it’s still spiraling downward. Unemployment is skyrocketing. The loans people used to be able to get are unavailable, with house values falling. Even the goyim have completely eliminated consumerism. When this all plays out, there will be major changes to the frum lifestyle. Much of the excessive gashmius will be gone. It’s possible that seminaries in Israel may also become a casualty.March 1, 2009 4:16 am at 4:16 am #639088lovenlifeMember
If the parents simply CAN NOT afoord it, what’s the question?? The child should NOT go or even put their parents through the heartacheMarch 1, 2009 5:32 am at 5:32 am #639089yankdownunderMember
If the Recession gets worse maybe the American Jewish Princess will become a thing of the past.March 1, 2009 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #639090tzippiMember
Lovenlife, does this apply to support in kollel too?
And to yankdownunder, JAP can stand for Jewish American Prince as well.March 1, 2009 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #639092lovenlifeMember
Tzippi: there are other ways they can stay in kollel than relying on their parents. The wife can get a good job, ect.March 2, 2009 12:31 am at 12:31 am #639093
Tz…, of course it applies to kollel. Making your parents pay money they cannot afford to is a mitzvah haba’ah be’aveirah. Stealing an animal and bringing a korban with it is no less a sin than forcing someone to pay money so you can learn. “Chamas”, extortion, is an aveirah too.
In general, there are 2 kinds of kollel learning- sustainable and unsustainable. Sustainable is when the wife has a parnassah that covers most of the bills, leaving a small, manageable amount for the parents or in-laws to chip in. This usually doesn’t bankrupt the parents or cause any parents to get into awful levels of debt. Unsustainable is having no income and expecting the parents and in-laws to provide everything. Between the large families and spiraling costs, this option is unaffordable for most.March 2, 2009 1:07 am at 1:07 am #639094yankdownunderMember
tzippi- Good point!
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