May 17, 2013 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #956821
nobody has attempted to explain why 2 is incorrect
That’s not true (either). Anyhow, it’s what we call “a kasha oif a maaseh).May 17, 2013 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #956822
It is interesting to read the various explanations for the “crisis”. What I find most interesting though, are the words of litvish (my term for non chassidish where “crisis” isnt used as much) girls who are actually “in the parsha”. The most repeated line is “there are not enough GOOD GUYS available to date”, not that there are not enough guys altogether. Why do the girls not perceive the problem the way everyone else does? Are they in denial?
Also, it was written in this forum and also publicized in various advertisements, that there are (and will continue to be) hundreds (as much as 10%) of recent high school graduates who will simply never get married. Has anyone looked at those girls who are not married? Is there a common denominator among them? I dont want to make assumptions but will throw out a suggestion, is there a common denominator whereby these girls are from families who are unable to offer the support packages being asked for? Is it their looks? Brains? Personalities?
Lastly, what I would really like to see, more than an advertisement with signatures of roshei yeshiva (and the resulting claims of people misleading them etc…) are roshei yeshiva and rabbonim addressing their individual bachurim and kehillos on the hashkafa of the entire parsha. What is proper hishtadlus and what is hysterics. How to deal with and react to statement that appear under the signatures of prominent rabbonim that state, 10% of girls will never marry, or a statement which places the blame on the shoulders of those who do not follow such guidelines when it is abundantly clear that not all rabbonim or roshei yeshiva have signed on to such statements (a comparison of the signatories to the original age gap advertisements recommending closer in age shidduchim and the more recent advertisements suggesting bachurim marry younger illustrate this last point).May 17, 2013 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #956823
The most repeated line is “there are not enough GOOD GUYS available to date
There will always be guys to date, they might just be strange.May 19, 2013 3:49 am at 3:49 am #956824
On the off chance that your comment about “strange guys” is meant seriously, how are the current proposals of closer in age marriage and starting to date younger serious attempts at solving the stated problem?May 19, 2013 4:19 am at 4:19 am #956825
I agree, though that is all the “age gap” is a maaiseh.
And, one with kashas at thatMay 19, 2013 5:05 am at 5:05 am #956826
There are strange girls also. Many (certainly not all) of the boys “left over” are not married for very good reasons. It’s not nearly as often for the girls, who have the numbers stacked against them.
Ubiquitin, the kashas are more difficult when you ignore the teirutzim.
I’m still waiting (not holding my breath) for an explanation of how 112 girls can marry 100 boys as long as they date evenly.May 19, 2013 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #956827
They cant, nor did I ever say they can.
Im still waiting for an explanation as to how adding more boys who won’t date the 12 girls who aren’t getting dates will help all 112 get married.May 19, 2013 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #956828
Because your assumption that there are 12 unpicked girls who don’t get any dates and won’t get any dates no matter how many boys are in the pool of shidduchim- is simply incorrect.
This is a point DY has made a few times on this thread, i’m not sure why you keep ignoring it.May 20, 2013 2:16 am at 2:16 am #956829
AZ I ignore it because it is demonstrably wrong.
There are more than enough dates for all 112 girls. ALL!! Every last one. There is even more than enough dates for every last girl to get more than one date!
(Granted there may not be enough for all to marry.)
The age gap Can not possibly explain why many girls “suffer from infrequent dating” thus there is something else that is preventing these girls from getting dates.
Adding more boys to the mix wont help solve whatever that other issue isMay 20, 2013 3:57 am at 3:57 am #956830
There are more than enough dates for all 112 girls. ALL!!
… which is really beside the point because the purpose of dating is to get married, and the numbers (in the current system) don’t support all of them getting married.
You haven’t demonstrated in the least bit that I’m wrong. I’ve offered a rational, correct explanation for the uneven dating, and you simply “prove” that I’m wrong by observing that there is uneven dating.May 20, 2013 4:14 am at 4:14 am #956831
question: ignoring the age gap (which can’t account for much) and assuming 50/50 births, where do all these boys go?May 20, 2013 4:30 am at 4:30 am #956832
It’s such a shame all the energy in this forum is spent debating the age gap when there is a need for a revolution…
and this is exactly the kind of place where revolutions begin
there are actual people suffering out there
there is real pain
its long past time to shake our world up – We can do this…May 20, 2013 4:43 am at 4:43 am #956833
where do all these boys go?
Why do you assume they’ve gone anywhere?May 20, 2013 5:13 am at 5:13 am #956834
I don’t have a gun. Can you get me one?May 20, 2013 10:42 am at 10:42 am #956835
The question is what to do. The “solution” of having boys date younger will not help the current “crises” at all. And I believe would introduce a new “divorce crises” TM
You keep repeating that nonsense, A prerequisite to get married is dating. If girls can’t get dates, they wont get married no matter how many boys are available. If girls are having trouble getting dates when there are more than enough available, there is no way anything will change unless the problem of uneven dating is addressed (as much as possible).
The “solutions” offered by having people date closer in age wont solve that.
Unless you are suggesting strictly having everybody date ONLY theri age. Kind of like making it so there are 100 girls vying over 100 chairs after which the room is locked and nobody leaves until everybody gets a seat. I suppose in that imaginary situation the fact that 12 of the girl are hard of hearing wouldnt matter since they dont have any competition and have enough seats.
Is that your suggestion?May 20, 2013 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #956836
Demonstrably wrong: wow, that’s pretty powerful. (and terribly incorrect).
How many girls do yo know who are 25 years old and have not dated 5 guys?
How many girls do yo know who are 30 years old and have not dated 5 guys?
Is it true that some girls date five guys in five months, sure
Is it true that some girls date five guys in five years, yes
It that the crisis
It might seem unfair, but it’s not the shidduch crisis
Sure some girls get dates easily, some less easily, but the notion that 12 out of 112 simply are unpicked and never get any dates is just plain not accurate.
In addition, evening out the numbers WILL absolutley make it MUCH much easier for the girls who currently are having difficulty getting dates. The reason should be obvious as DY has pointed out again and again but you insist on ignoring.
Can’t help you much more.
btw ubi: I’m curious, why does it seem to you that the girls somehow suffer from being unpicked but not the guys. I mean for whatever reason girls would be unpicked, there should be similar guy who should be unpicked by the girls. Wouldn’t you think that if there are girls who are (in your words) “hard of hearing” that there should be roughly the same number of guys who are “hard of hearing”, and that despite there being enough dates to go around, they should still not be getting yesses from the girls who don’t suffer from being “hard of hearing”, just like the girls who are “hard of hearing” don’t get yesses from the guys, due to the girls being “hard of hearing”.
In a world where there are enough dates to go around, why would girls who have options to date guys who are not “hard of hearing”, why would they consider guys who are “hard of hearing”
Just wondering………….May 20, 2013 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #956837
It’s such a shame all the energy in this forum is spent debating the age gap when there is a need for a revolution…
To the bastille!May 20, 2013 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #956838
“but the notion that 12 out of 112 simply are unpicked and never get any dates is just plain not accurate.”
Admittedly this is not a scientific study, but the above statement is contradicted by the sentiment expressed by a majority of the girls who enrolled in the seminary where my wife works. In “our circles” a prerequisite to getting married is getting a “yes” from a boy. Many, many girls express the sentiment that they wait and wait for that elusive yes and when they do get one, it seems like he was dragged up from the bottom of a barrel somewhere (hence the no good boy complaint). I dont claim to have any “solutions”, but am still wondering why there is a disconnect as to what the problem really is as stated by those who are offering solutions to the crisis, and those directly affected by it.May 20, 2013 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #956839
How can it be that a majority of girls don’t get dates? A majority get married, so I would assume they get dates.
Unless your wife works in B’nos Deshe.May 20, 2013 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #956840
APY: Please ask you wife to speak to the alum of her seminary who are 25 and still single.
Please let us know how many of them have never dated.
I await your response.
While i wait, I’ll point out that the difficulty the girls have in getting dates is not the cause, it’s simply the effect of a unequal shidduch scene, like DY has pointed out numerous times. It’s the simple law of supply and demand.
Is it true, that girls have difficulty getting yesses- Yes
Is it true that boys are able to “marry up” and girls are pressured to “marry down”- Yes
Is it true that the above two statements are the result of a large discrepency between ration of available boys to available girls- Yes again.
Good luck to anyone who thinks they can change the first two issues without addressing the third.May 20, 2013 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #956841
“Please let us know how many of them have never dated.”
Forget those 25+. There are a number who are perhaps 20 or 21 who have “dropped out” of the “yeshiva dating system” and have opted to try and meet boys on their own (which is becoming a greater and greater problem). I dont know how successful this is for any of them, but they feel that at least there is movement. I havent thought it through to say I agree or disagree with them (in theory – in practice I have a numbers of problems with this), but this is how they, the ones affected by the current situation, feel and are reacting.
As for those who are 25+ that we do know from the neighborhood, all of them state that when they were fresh out of seminary they also hardly got any dates. They do complain about the unequal shidduch scene and almost to a woman propose that a way to help resolve SOME of the inequality is for shadchanim to approach the girls side first. They are not concerned about rejection or bruised egos (which they hear – rightly or wrongly – is the reason for the current method of going through the boy first), they just want to know that someone is working on their behalf and hearing that they have a suggestion and that it was passed along is a positive that they would like to hear. The way things work now, they have no idea if their name was suggested to someone, or not, the lack of information causes panic on their part which leads some people to say, do, or even promise outrageous things to shadchanim. Soon those crazy things become the norm and panic driven parents promise even crazier things, all the while the boys are laughing all the way to the bank. Has any consideration been given to starting a shidduch from the girls side? If you have an opinion either way, would you care to share it?May 20, 2013 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #956842
Plenty of shidduchim start from the girls side first.
Plenty of times it’s the girls families or acquaintances who try to get it redd.
Unfortunately many times the boy doesn’t give a yes.
In fact plenty of mothers of boys will tell a shadchan come back to me when you have a yes from the girl. Plenty of times the shadchanim will go to the girl side first, or at the same time as when they approach the boy, knowing/thinking/hoping that they stand a better chance of getting a yes from the boy if the girl has already expressed interest.
In any event, what is written about it being “unfair” to the girls is correct- but until we realize that it’s a direct function of the unequal numbers of dating…..
otherwise we can keep on playing the music faster slower or changing the the tune, but the results will still be the same.
side note: Shadchanim in general have one interest and one interest only and that is to make succesful shidduchim and in order to do that, the only thing they can do is set up dates (hopefully quality dates). Their system for doing things will be governed by how it impacts their ability to set up dates.
(as for why people who think of a particular girl don’t always tell the girl that they are thinking of her, that’s a discussion for a different time. Some girls would prefer to know that they are being thought of, but many shadchanim prefer to be the “bad guy” and not tell the girl I tried to redd you 10 different shidduchim but all the guys said no. What would you do??
In any event, with regard to the big picture this issue doesn’t change much. What is clear is that we need a level shidduch field, and so long as the numbers are severely out of wack, the shidduch field won’t be level.)May 20, 2013 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #956843
Regarding your “just wondering” question its mostly because the guy is the one who does the picking, if he gets a no he picks another and another. While the girl sits there waiting to be picked.
Furthermore because some misguided people have terrified girls into believing that there are 10% more guys than girls (true or not, many are under this impression) thus just the possubilty of a yes is jumped on more than guys who have been told they can be as picky as they want since hey you have a list.
Mostly the first point thoughMay 21, 2013 12:20 am at 12:20 am #956844
Regarding your “just wondering” question its mostly because the guy is the one who does the picking
… which is because…May 21, 2013 2:57 am at 2:57 am #956845
I’m having difficulty following…
You explained why the guys who are “not hard of hearing” are able to do a lot of picking. But what about the guys who are “hard of hearing”, how are they able to keep on picking, shouldn’t the girls keep on saying no to them?
I mean after all the numbers are equal (or at least in your mind, that plays no factor).
hmmmm I guess it’s because the “hard of hearing guys” are redd so many shidducim so they can pick one who will finally say yes, and the girls who are “hard of hearing” just sit and no one redds them shidduchim.
and that is because????
oh- it’s because the style is to go to the guys first…
um i think not
I think it’s because there are simply so many more girls to redd and thus the guys have the upper hand and thus….
and i think it’s pretty obvious that if/when the numbers are more equal, then guys will have a choice of sitting and sitting and sitting or dating girls that previously would have been unpicked.
Suppose there was a shortage of girls for the guys, wouldn’t it be obvious that this would alleviate and solve the problem of some girls not getting dates??? In fact it would create a reverse problem for the boys (depending on the degree of the shortage of girls. This is actually what is taking place by the chassidim).
so the most efficient method of solving your issue is to close the age gap. and one of the very effective and necessary steps to close the age gap is to have boys begin dating slightly younger.
Whatever, i think at this point we are going in circles.
I wish best of luck at giving the girls equal dating opportunity while allowing the numbers to be totally out of wack.
(as for your comment re: misguided people. if you think it’s a lie say it. if you think it’s true but advise against making it known, do realize that significant numbers of Gedolim in EY and tens of R”Y in Americat have signed a letter saying exactly that. If you say it’s a lie and they were mislead- please say so- and be ready to back it up because it’s a very very serious allegation. If you agree to the facts, but are arguing on them regarding the appropriate course of action, i think you are out of place.)May 21, 2013 4:09 am at 4:09 am #956846
DY it is becasue that is how our shiduch is set up. It is crazy and must be changed. It was not always this way and among chasidim it isnt this way either. This is why the “shidduch crises” is a recent phenomena and why it doesnt exist by chasidim
I have been saying this since the get go.May 21, 2013 5:24 am at 5:24 am #956847
You keep on bringing up Chassidim, and history. You can’t make up facts and support your idea based on invented facts.May 21, 2013 6:52 am at 6:52 am #956848
Most shadchanim by Chasidim suggest the shidduch first to the party least likely to say yes (to minimize hurt feelings). Alternately, if the shadchan knows one side really well and isn’t afraid to offend, he’ll suggest it there first. Now here’s the monkey wrench: since generally the girls have the upper hand, they’re usually first. It’s not just a numbers game, but a quality issue. The general consensus is that there are more “good girls” than “good boys” (and that it’s easier for a girl to be considered good). Also, the concept of Nadan was left in Europe, except if the bochur is a real “illi” and his family is top notch.
Disclaimer: I haven’t been involved with shidduchim for a while so my observations may be outdated.May 21, 2013 11:57 am at 11:57 am #956849
Mammele, your description doesn’t make sense. If there are more quality girls than boys, than a quality boy would have the upper hand.
Anyhow, the more important question is the typical age differential.May 21, 2013 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #956850
I’m sure ubi will now need to make up new facts.
The other thing incorrect about your observation is the underlying cause.
The statement about good girls and good guys is not the underlying cause.
The reason that the girls have the upper hand by the chassidim is the same reason that the boys have the upper hand by the non chassidim.
The reason the shadchan goes to the girls first by the chassidim is the same reason the shadchan goes to the boys by the non chassdidim.
but ubi would have us beleive that the reason the girls have the uppper hand by the chassidim is BECAUSE the shadhchan goes to them first. In reality it’s the exact opposite.
The shadchan goes to them first because they have the upper hand
and they have the upper hand because……….
by the chassidim there are more available guys than guys
isn’t it ironic how how by the chassidim the concept that there are more “good girls” than “good guys” seems to help the girls, and by the non chassdiim that same comment seems to hurt the guys.
the answer- that is a made up concept with no basis.May 21, 2013 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #956851
Ubi- when you are ready i’ll be happy to explain to you why it’s a recent phenomana, but you aren’t there yet
almost almost.May 21, 2013 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #956852
I heard last night that there is similar complaint in the secular world that there are not enough guys for the girls.
I’m sticking with creepy guy theory of the crisis.May 21, 2013 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #956853
Now you’ve really confused me . Which fact did I make up? That chasidim don’t have a crises? Or That we didn’t 15 – 20 years ago?May 21, 2013 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #956854
A large number of chassidish girls opt out so they can marry normal litvish boys and be allowed to walk outdoors and drive. Not many litvish girls opt in to the chassidish scene willingly. That’s a better explanation of the two crises than anything you’ve read here so far.
And I can make up another fwo or three theories if you ask. AZ iz a raving lunatic. The age gap theory is, and always was, sold- never bought.May 21, 2013 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #956855
i’m on board with the creepy guy thing, but with more of a socially retarded bent. and fyi, mathematically it should make no difference who gets to say yes or no first. it’s far more likely that it’s an effect of number disparity, not a cause in and of itself.May 21, 2013 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #956856
for us out-of-towners (OOT’s), the shidduch crisis is doubly difficult and devastating for girls. the girls have no dates- that is ZERO (0), and shadchonim are busy with NY girls, NJ girls and wealthy girl families. boys aren’t interested in dating OOT girls if they can just date one in Lakewood or NY where they are learning. why travel, why the expense, if they have girls right in their backyards to date!?
and that’s the trouble.
almost all the boys are condensed into one area of the world (NY, NJ) and it is soooo difficult for OOT parents to get information on these prospective shidduchim. even boys originally from OOT change over the years, and is difficult to get information on their current status from old neighbours and friends.
perhaps a solution could be:
if an OOT shadchan(from each city) HAS A CONTACT (in LKWD or NY), from whom he can get information about boys, so that he can rehd them to OOT girls. it is getting too difficult and too frustrating waiting and waiting in order to get some information DIRECTLY from these LKWD and NY shadchonim.
any thoughts from other OOT parents/girls?May 21, 2013 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #956857
I’m sorry but in Brooklyn Chassidish girls are allowed to walk outside as much as they like and once they get married (which is usually at 18-20) they usually get a license and learn to drive although this depends on how extremely chassidish they are. But average chassidish women drive today.May 21, 2013 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #956858
not to worry. I already know why it is new and have been explaining it to you since the start of this discussion, and from the fact that you are afraid to discuss it makes it pretty clear that you do to, though you don’t want to acknowledge it since it throws a wrench in your “Theory”
Also you do realize mamale supports what I have been saying. That among chasidim the initial picking is not exclusively in the guys hands
Did you not get what (s)he said? Or have you not understood what I have been saying
You seem to agree with Mamale or now will you change your mind since his/her statement further dents your “theory”?May 21, 2013 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #956859
DY: my observation makes sense because only about 10 percent of the guys – the cream of the crop – actually have the upper hand. Another 25 percent of boys are “mazeldik” or more realistic and get engaged fairly quickly. The average 50 percent struggle a little, 12 percent are stragglers to one degree or another and the remaining 3 percent or so are “stuck” hopefully not indefinitely. Working boys especially have a very hard time. My numbers are just “guesstimates”, totally unscientific.
There is no actual age gap as far as I know, just individual circumstances dictate when one will be married. I can’t say it holds true for all chasidim, there are probably age differences among groups. Generally speaking parents of boys want to see them married off fairly quickly as the nisyonos nowadays are great. Girls are a bit “safer” but it also depends on where she lives and on the girl herself. So if the girl can bide her time, she can be more selective as well.May 21, 2013 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #956860
AZ, I bowed out earlier to let you have center stage. You seem to enjoy it much more than I do. But your last comment is so sickening in its arrogant, condescending tone that you got me back.
The age gap is certainly an interesting theory; I would find it more interesting if I saw you hire someone with a little more mathematical clout. How about a few nice Jewish accountants or actuaries to come onboard? I also find it interesting that some of the Roshei Yeshiva who kindly lent their approval to NASI are not practically following your advice in their own families, or among their close talmidim. Do they have other considerations we don’t know about?
What irks me to no end is the way you insist on burying your head in the sand in refusing to consider other changes in societal norms that have arisen in the last 20 or so years.
I won’t belabor the point I already made many posts ago. But you asked me how many girls in my grad class had 7 siblings, or 10 kids in their families? Answer- some, maybe one third or less. Yes, today there are generally larger families in our community. But the ratio of males to females cannot have changed, as those larger families, presumably, are not made up of girls exclusively.
A topic for discussion- how have larger families affected affluence and financial stability? And just to make the discussion more effective: Add to this the societal change nobody thinks to mention; i.e. the steady, exponential rise in the number of young men wanting to defer involvement in their own parnassa for years (the number of years also steadily going up); and the number of young ladies (-arguably greater than men, as seminaries seem to be doing a finer job inculcating these ideals) who want more and more years devoted to Torah learning exclusively on the part of their husbands.
The refusal on your part (and on the part of others with influence) to broaden the discussion to examine the issue from all sides, will only exacerbate the problem we are dealing with already. I know too many people dealing with older singles to ignore your smug, overbearing attempts at drowning out any voices that don’t align with your idea.May 21, 2013 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #956861
Ubi: cute how you misunderstood what mamele said. (not that some anonymous poster on this forum needs to be learned up).
She writes that shidduchim are redd to the chassidishe girls first BECAUSE they have the upper hand.
You interpert that to mean they have the upper hand BECAUSE they get redd first
that’s not what mamales wrote and that’s not the facts on the ground..
for some reason you keep up mixing up the cause with the effect. who gets redd first (effect), is based on who has the upper hand (cause).
so why is it that by the chassidim the the girls have the upper hand and by the non chassidim the boys have the upper hand.
sure seems to be a numbers issue.
now the only issue is to figure out why
1. by the chassidim the numbers favor the girls and by the litvishe the numbers favor the boys
2. why this is a relatively new phenonmana. Until you are ready to deal with this issue, i won’t address them. If you take that to mean that i can’t explain it, that’s your (faulty) interpretation.
(the truth is that whether it’s a new phenomana or not is really not important. lets say 100 years ago the same shidduch crisis existed with 10% of girls not being able to get married, and nothing was done about it then. Does that mean that now nothing should be done about it if there are things that could be done???????
But it does seem to be a newish phenomena and there is a good reason why that is so.)
mamale: can you please enlighten us (re: the chassidishe world) at what age the girls enter shidduchim and at what age the boys enter shidduchim? (I’m being facetious. i think it’s pretty well known that both boys and girls enters shidduchim at around the same age.May 21, 2013 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #956862
Ubiquitin, you made up the fact that the chassidim have a significant age gap.May 21, 2013 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #956863
AZ, I know math doesn’t support the idea of an age gap, large population growth, and no gender disparity, but I’m not old enough to remember which of those factors changed (although I suspect a combination).
What did change?May 21, 2013 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #956864
DY i haven’t (in this thread) even suggested that age gap is at the root of the disparity in numbers. Perhaps there are other causes that have caused the disparity in numbers.
I’m waiting for Ubi to agree that the focus needs to be on the disparity in numbers as i pointed out in my observation early on n this thread. Until that point, i won’t begin discussing the cause of the disparity in numbers, why it’s a new phenomona and then and only then can we return to the comment of the OP of how to alleviate it.
we’re getting there, but we are not there yet.
1. Actuaries and PHd’s were involved.
2. If you have questions for specific R”Y please direct your questions to them directly.
3. you write:
“Yes, today there are generally larger families in our community. But the ratio of males to females cannot have changed, as those larger families, presumably, are not made up of girls exclusively.”
I can only assume you posted that erroneously. I will pretend it wasn’t posted because although i haven’t discussed age gap in this thread, that sentence shows a complete lack of understanding of the age gap idea.
as for any and all other issues. On the individual level each person is a world onto their own. But for the sake of this thread, my discussion will simply focus on the observation i wrote earlier regarding the discrepancy of the number of girls to boys dating.
where do you stand on that observation??May 21, 2013 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #956865
AZ, just read the last paragraph of my post. You answer’s there.May 21, 2013 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #956866
DY, that wasn’t mentioned in the comment you said I made up, and I never ever said that. I said age gap not significant, even a 1 yr gap should produce a crises.
Don’t hold your breath for a response from AzMay 21, 2013 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #956867
I agree there is no need to learn up what an anonymous poster said. You however are sticking a lot into his/her post. The takeaway is that the dating process among chasisim is not as rigid as amongst us. The casue effect you lay out and the one you attribute to me may or may not be true but it doesn’t change anything. The truth is it would be hard to ascertain which came first unles we can trace back to when one of the two began. (hmmm in which population CAN we trace back a new rigid dating process in which the guy goes first, and the start of a shiduch crises, never mind I know and Im pretty sure you do to).
The point is by chasidim it is not always the boy who picks girls from a seemingly endless list. This is what Ive been saying all along and mamaleh’s anonymous comment supports and you agreed (though Im ready for you to change your mind when you realize this point)May 21, 2013 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #956868
“How can it be that a majority of girls don’t get dates?”
Please dont put words in my mouth. I wrote many state they find it very difficult to get a date.May 21, 2013 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #956869
I’m a girl, (and a great one if I may add:) ) and I can tell you that I’ve waited 6 months + sometimes, just to get a yes from a boy.May 21, 2013 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #956870
mamale’s post states
a. by chassiddim the girls have the upper hand.
b. by chassidim the girls are approached first.
you seem to jump all over those two statements and conveniently ignore her third statement
c. The girls are approached first BECAUSE they have the upper hand.
Instead you decided/made up that the girls have the upper hand because they are approached first. Then you decide/made up that whomever is approached first will inevitably have the upper hand, and thus by the non chassidim were presto the reverse is true.
a. the boys have the upper hand
b. the boys are appraoched first
you then decide/made up
c. the boys have the upper hand because they are approached first.
and this is despite your agreement that by the non chassidim the numbers favor the boys heavily.(you earlier stated that you agree with my observation)
UBI: for whatever it’s worth I agree with ALL three statements mamale said.
a. the girls have the upper hand by the chassidim.
b. the girls are approached first by the chassidim
c. the girls are approached first BECAUSE they have the upper hand.
Please don’t distort my words.
The only issue i have with mamale is her interpertation as to WHY step a. is true. WHY do the girls have the upper hand.
She suggested something about more good girls/easier to be a good girls etc, and that simply isn’t the root cause. The overabundance of boys by the chassidim is the root cause.
I am happy to answer the question that I haven’t addressed yet- regarding the history- only as soon as there is agreement that the issue to be dealt with is why the numbers favor the boys in the non chassidic world.
A fact you say you agree with, but then amazingly claim doesn’t have much of a impact on the shidduch situation.
As for your statement to DY, that a one year gap would make a crisis, that is not true (if the boys are older by one year).
my question was
Do you agree/disagree with the following statement/observation.
The number of orthodox non chassidic men who are still single after 5/10 years of dating is significantly fewer than the number of orthodox non chassidic women who are single after 5/10 years of dating.
Or perhaps I should restate it as follows:
The number of orthodox non chassidic men between the ages of 30-38 who are unmarried is significantly fewer than the number of orthodox non chassidic women between the ages of 27- 35 who are unmarried.
Where do you stand on that question:
you say this is your response
“The refusal on your part (and on the part of others with influence) to broaden the discussion to examine the issue from all sides, will only exacerbate the problem we are dealing with already. I know too many people dealing with older singles to ignore your smug, overbearing attempts at drowning out any voices that don’t align with your idea.”
I apologize for my poor reading comprehension skills, but is your answer
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