December 4, 2008 4:52 am at 4:52 am #637663anon for thisParticipant
I think this attitude Itzik_s describes re: shidduchim is an extension of the general attitude among many people that only those who are look, dress, live, and behave exactly as they do are completely trustworthy and truly frum. If that’s the attitude people have towards their neighbors and children’s classmates, it’s not surprising they would expect at least at much from their son’s/ daughter’s future spouse.December 4, 2008 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #637664KolMevaserMember
Beauty because of Hidur Mitzvah (Rav Hershel Schecter in a taped shiur)December 4, 2008 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #637665
Don’t kid yourself. You think people care about beauty in a marriage cuz it’s a better way to do the mitzva?!?! I find that VERY hard to believe. I never heard the shiur you’re talking about, but I can imagine that sentence was taken out of contex. Or maybe he was trying to tell people how to elevate the mundane. If not, I think that comment need major clarification.
Or was that some random comment that had nothing to do with shidduchim???December 4, 2008 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #637666Itzik_sMember
Sadly, with the present two or three minyanim shteiging away in Otisville, shidduchim between chavrei Federal Kollel can probably be arranged quite easily.December 4, 2008 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #637667
Beauty is a very subjective thing. One man’s idea of beauty is not the same as another’s. I doubt that Rav Shachter was speaking of external beauty, which is something that can alter with time. I would think that he probably was referring to the inner beauty that a woman possesses when her character and deeds are beautiful. Even a plain-looking woman is transformed when she is kind and loving in nature, and the right man for her will see that beauty, even when others do not.December 5, 2008 12:06 am at 12:06 am #637668
now that makes more sense. but how do you explain the hidur mitzva in marrying a pretty girl?!?!December 5, 2008 12:59 am at 12:59 am #637669JosephParticipant
Physical beauty comes after many other priorities on the shidduch shopping list. Notably spiritual beauty.December 5, 2008 2:07 am at 2:07 am #637670000646Participant
Lets be real here It is crucial that a man find his wife beutifull and attractive for them to be married happily (unless they are realy old when they get married v’hamaven yavin)December 5, 2008 4:42 am at 4:42 am #637671havesomeseichelMember
Come on!! Get your priorities straight! I understand that both sides need to be attractive to each other, but sometimes let the inner beauty show through… I disagree with the entire “give the shadchan a shidduch picture…” people can photoshop those things- remember. and when the couple ages and has kids, IY”H, they will 100% not look the same as their wedding. Only inner beauty lasts.December 5, 2008 7:56 am at 7:56 am #637672BogenParticipant
The people who focus on looks/beauty as a priority, are nebech usually the ones who later regret their choices and end up…December 5, 2008 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #637673gavra_at_workParticipant
Nedarim 66aDecember 7, 2008 2:07 am at 2:07 am #637674
people who focus on any physical/external aspects may come to regret it. including money and yichus and what seminary/yeshiva…
but hey, it IS important to be attracted. you can’t say that it’s NOTHING and that ONLY “internal beauty” (that sounds so seminary-ish!) counts.December 7, 2008 2:15 am at 2:15 am #637675
(unless they are realy old when they get married v’hamaven yavin)
Are you implying that elderly people do not show each other affection, or have no need to do so? You could not be more wrong.February 13, 2009 3:10 am at 3:10 am #637676JosephParticipant
The Gemorah in Pesachim 49 list the order of priority when looking for a wife. A man should seek the daughter of… (in order of preference):
Person of Great Deeds
Teacher of Children
TO FIND A WIFE, CHECK OUT HER BROTHERS!
In Parshas Vaera we find a source for a halacha involving family influence. The Torah writes: “???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????” “and Aharon took Elisheva the daughter of Aminadav, the sister of Nachson to him as a wife” (Shmos 6:23). The Gemara asks: “by implication from the fact that the verse says Elisheva was the daughter of Aminadav, do I not know that she was the sister of Nachshon? For what purpose, then, does Scripture state that she was the sister of Nachshon? From here we are to derive that one who seeks to marry a woman ought first to examine the character of her brothers” (Bava Basra 110a). Rashi explains that the children will bear a resemblance to the mother’s brothers. If a person marries a woman with a brother of the caliber of Nachshon ben Aminadav there is greater chance that his children will become tzaddikim.
This does not preclude children with less than righteous uncles from becoming tzaddikim. The classic example of this is Yitzchak who married Rivka. Her brother, Lavan, was far from a tzaddik, yet their son turned out to be Yaakov Avinu. Nevertheless, the Gemara is telling us that when a person searches for a wife, he should consider who her brothers are and her family background.
MARRY THE WIFE OF A TALMID CHACHAM!
The Brisker Rav zt”l said first and foremost one should check the Yiras Shamayim of the woman herself ? does she have a love of Torah, does she have good middos, etc. Although Chazal speak of the great advantage of marrying the daughter of a talmid chacham, it is not possible for everyone to find such a woman, there simply are not enough talmidei chachamim to go around. We must, however, be insistent on marrying the wife of a talmid chacham!
All things considered, it is important to marry into a good family, as we find in the Gemara: “let one always cleave to righteous people (marry into a righteous family) for, on the one hand we have Moshe Rabeinu who married the daughter of Yisro and we find that Yehonasan, an idolatrous priest, descended from him. And on the other hand we have Aharon who married the daughter of Aminadav and we find that Pinchas descended from him” (Bava Basra 109b). The Gemara then asks, but did Pinchas not also descend from Yisro, for it is written ‘and Elazar the son of Aharon, took for himself a wife from the daughters of Putiel’ (Shmos 6:25)”. The Gemara explains that the name Putiel can refer either to Yisro or to Yoseph and that in fact one of Pinchas’ grandparents from his mother’s side descended from Yisro and the other from Yoseph. Moshe’s wife, on the other hand, descended solely from a family that had worshipped avoda zara.
We know that Yitro himself was a tzaddik who became a ger tzedek and greatly assisted Moshe Rabenu, and great tzaddikim descended from him, such as Yael who killed Sisra. In the book of Melachim we read that Yehonadav ben Rechav descended from the family of Yisro. Yehonadav was greatly praised by Hashem in the book of Yirmiyahu for having children who heeded their father’s commands. Many other tzaddikim descended from Yisro, and as we mentioned he himself was a great tzaddik, however, his former years as a priest to avoda zara seemed to have a negative influence on his descendants, to the extent that even Moshe Rabeinu had a grandson who worshipped avoda zara.
Of course a good family is no guarantee, for we find that even the best families have offspring they are not very proud of. Chazal tell us “not until three generations had passed was the impurity removed from our forefathers. For we see that Avraham sired Yishmael, Yitzchak sired Esav, but Yaakov sired the twelve tribes in whom there was no aberration” (Shabbos 146a). We see that even the holy forefathers required three generations to purify themselves.
The fact that a man should try to choose a wife from a family with Torah and yiras Shamayim obligates each of us to strive to reach higher levels of yiras Shamayim. A person’s actions affect not only himself but his descendants as well. We all exist in the merit of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yaakov and we would not be here today had they not been such great tzaddikim. It is therefore imperative that we work on ourselves so that our children have what to inherit from their parents and grandparents providing them with a greater chance to succeed.
Dovid HaMelech, patriarch of the Davidic dynasty, father of the Moshiach, was one of the biggest tzaddikim in history. The Gemara tells us that he made one mistake which cost him dearly. When he escaped from Shaul HaMelech, he fled to Nov Ir HaKohanim, home of the Mishkan, and asked to be fed. They gave him bread which angered Shaul who then destroyed the entire city and only one Kohen survived. Chazal indirectly blame Dovid for the massacre and as a result years later the wicked Queen Atalia killed the royal family with the exception of King Yehoash who was saved by his aunt. Although Hashem had another reason to punish the city of Nov, for the sins of the sons of Eli, Dovid was also partly responsible for the massacre and as a result was accountable for the killing of many of his descendants as well.February 13, 2009 3:48 am at 3:48 am #637677random1Member
First thing to look for is how she spoeaks to parents, secondly does she have good personality? Thirdly, is she intelligent and pretty? and that wraps it up and if you are like all the other people are they wealthy?February 13, 2009 4:05 am at 4:05 am #637678beaconParticipant
Guys really look at how the girl speaks to her parents? How much do we say anyway?February 13, 2009 4:18 am at 4:18 am #637679
My mom’s cousin was an exceptionally good-looking man in his youth. His wife was not in any way shape or form attractive, speaking objectively. She had a very bad buck teeth situation, frizzy hair, and was short and dumpy next to him. He was extremely intelligent and funny, and could have had any woman he wanted. But she was the woman whom he chose. Don’t think that people did not have the chutzpah and lack of menschlechkeit to ask him what he saw in her. They did. And often. His reply – ” Well, you’re all wrong – she IS beautiful, she’s got a great sense of humor,she’s vivacious, she makes me feel 100 feet tall, and she is all the wife I could ever want! I cannot believe that you don’t see what I see! And that’s your tough luck!”February 13, 2009 5:05 am at 5:05 am #637680syriansephardiMember
Oomis1105: awhhh 🙂 she is very lucky to have a husband who speaks about her that way!!February 13, 2009 5:14 am at 5:14 am #637681
The gemara in Taanis mentions that on tu be’av, all the girls of Yerushalayim would put on plain white dresses and dance in the orchards. The pretty girls would emphasize their beauty, the meyuchas ones would emphasize their yichus, and the ones with neither would say “sheker hachein”. So clearly people used to judge the prospective shidduch based on looks.February 13, 2009 7:00 am at 7:00 am #637682ujmParticipant
Jothar: Why did they stop doing that? Should we do the same today?February 13, 2009 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #637683tzippiMember
Oomis: reminds me of the story, Johnny Lingo’s Eight Cow Wife.
Re Joseph’s quote: guess I’m a Brisker.
Ujm: not practical today. It’s also presupposing that the boys and girls had a lot of basics in common. Might work for Chassidim.February 13, 2009 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #637684SJSinNYCMember
Jothar: Why did they stop doing that? Should we do the same today?
If you think about it, emphasizing qualities (and often with great exaggeration) is done by the shidduch system. Maybe reimplementing the dancing would help though 🙂February 13, 2009 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #637685
ujm, I don’t know why they stopped. Probably niskatnu hadoros. The gemara also says that real talmidei chachamim had to bring an am ha’aretz with them when they got engaged, to recognize the girl for a year later when they did nisuin.February 13, 2009 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #637686
ujm, I don’t know why they stopped. Probably niskatnu hadoros. The gemara also says that real talmidei chachamim had to bring an am ha’aretz with them when they got engaged, to recognize the girl for a year later when they did nisuin.February 13, 2009 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #637687qwertyuiopMember
oomis: she’s lucky to have a very special husband.$
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