November 13, 2008 12:57 am at 12:57 am #625427marinerMember
jewishfeminist: “I did say, however, that I don’t think it’s fair ….”
one more thing, who in the world ever said anything in life is or has to be fair. life is not fair. life is just. fair is something you go to in the summer.November 13, 2008 1:00 am at 1:00 am #625428oomisParticipant
Not all skinny girls are attractive, not all overweight girls are ugly. People should stop generalizing. there needs to be some type of attraction of the genders to each other, but we should re-define our parameters of attractiveness. A very plain girl with an amazing sense of humor and good middos, may be way moer attractive than a blonde blue-eyed girl with less than kindhearted middos.November 13, 2008 3:58 am at 3:58 am #625429
I got myself a looker when I wasn’t even looking!November 13, 2008 4:11 am at 4:11 am #625430marinerMember
oomis1105: we agree with you. but….. smartcookie thinks that you do not need to be attracted to the other person in order to get married. that is not true. beauty is in the eyes of the beholder isnt just a nice quip, its tru. the gemora talks about it all the time. but to say that there is no such thing as ugly is not true. maybe not ugly to all, but the term is used in a general way. a fat person with pock marks all over their skin, who smells bad, and is disheveled is ugly. there may be a person who sees past it, and good for them. but the problem is many on this board think guys are silly to look at weight as a reason to or not to g out. the fact that a guy has no right to say he doesn’t want to date a fat girl is ridiculous, and is reverse discrimination. it is as dumb as affirmative blacktion (as rush always likes to call it. you are saying the girl has a right to be fat, but the guy doesn’t have a right to say move on. yes, the girl has the right to be fat, but the guy has the same right to say i dont want a fat girl. and to say that its childish because they didn’t even go out, and maybe they will like each other, besides it being a flawed argument, as it can be made with every girl reht to a boy regardless of the reason for rejected the reht, some uys do not want to be seen out with a girl they PERCEIVE to be ugly (fat). that is their right, and no amount of persuasion or yelling its not nice will change that.November 13, 2008 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #625431
MARINER- POCK MARKS OVER THEIR SKIN, WHO SMELLS BAD, AND IS DISHEVELED IS UGLY.
Now, that is a whole different story- your not talking about Hashem’s creation here. You’re talking about someone not taking care of themselves. That’s not called ugly as in opposition of beauty. That is ugly as in neglected. This is something that can be helped, and the person is at fault.
We’re talking about natural looks, how you were born and cannot change.
Anyway, I did not mean that you should marry someone who is unattracting.Someone who you view as ugly, be it skinny or fat, please dont marry them!!! But someone who is just decent looking, not the PRETTIEST, and well put together, will become attracted after marriage.
By the way, take a look at the Chassidishe world, they meet once and engaged!!! I doubt they get attracted to each other like that. But guess what, it works!!!
Theyre all so happy, many of them happier than couples that were SOOOOO attracted to each other.November 13, 2008 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #625432
“They’re all so happy”
How are we defining happiness here?
Perhaps they have a very low divorce rate, but just because the marriages stay together, this does not mean that the couples are happy. No one knows what happens behind closed doors.November 13, 2008 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #625433
NO JEWISH FEMINIST, they are REALLY happy. They truly love each others. I know many Chassidishe couples personally.November 13, 2008 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #625434
No matter how well you think you know someone, they can still be putting up a facade without you realizing it. (I mean this as a general statement; I’m not trying to cast doubt on your relationship with the Chassidishe couples whom you know.)
Anyway, even if those couples are really happy (and I hope they are) that doesn’t account for the entire Chassidishe community. I highly doubt that every single Chassidishe couple in the world is happily married.November 13, 2008 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #625435
FEMINIST- Not all Chassidish couples are happy of course, but nothing having to do with being attracted before marriage, for most cases.
proof- not all Litvish pple are happy either, and they were all of course so attracted before, since they dated one hundred times……
And, couples who divorce could have been attracted one hundred times to each other, but it does not gaurantee them a happy life.
Most Chassidishe couple who only met once, live very happily together.November 13, 2008 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #625436
Those who think you should overlook the outer shell of a person completely, and shouldn’t have to be attracted to the person you date/marry, maybe you should take a better look at yourself, and perhaps you will discover that you may have a low self esteem.November 14, 2008 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #625438
YOSHI- Those who think you should overlook the outer shell of a person completely…..
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER competely overlook the outer shell!!!Its very important to see that the girl is neat, ok looking, and not ugly etc…
But to make that as priority 1, is not important for a marriage to succeed.November 14, 2008 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #625439
smartcookie, “NEVER, NEVER, NEVER competely overlook the outer shell!!!”
I think you may have misinterpreted my post. I was saying, that the outer shell should get attention, and for those who think you should only care about personality and have total disregard for looks, are not being realistic. Yes the personality is more important, but you should be attracted to the person you marry, and like I’ve stated in my previous posts, attraction is relative. Everyone has their own definition of beauty.November 14, 2008 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #625440
Did I say, “shell?” Are we talking M&Ms here? hehehe
Sorry, couldn’t help myself. I just can’t get enough of those corny jokes!November 14, 2008 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #625441outoftownerMember
These back and forth postings are not getting anywhere. There are those that believe that the surface should hold more weight (No pun intended) And there are those who believe that you should in many cases look beyond surface deep. We all I think, I hope realize that in the IDEAL world it’s middos that are the ikar over chitzonius and gashmius, but many people aren’t there, and they need a perfectly trim package to seal the deal. Unfortunately people aren’t changing their views, because there is too much pressure and too much caring about what the oilam thinks to choose a spouse that doesn’t depict that which everyone will be impressed by. But I hope that people will stop and think about what is important in a shidduch before a potential is “nixed” over something that after getting to know and appreciate a person isn’t as important as a name and a pretty picture of someone you don’t know. OF course attractiveness is important, of course being healthy and taking care of yourself is important, but if a person doesn’t fit that picture perfect image you had in your head, then maybe think, twice and give it a chance.November 15, 2008 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #625442Mrs. BeautifulMember
I can understand why a boy wants a skinny pretty girl. But let’s be realistic, how many of these skinny pretty girls actually stay skinny pretty women. Baruch Hashem, our N’shei chayil, give birth, are balabustas and GAIN WEIGHT. I can think of a lot of women that got married as a size 2,4,6 and are now a whopping 12, 14 16.November 16, 2008 10:24 am at 10:24 am #625443
OUTOFTOWNER- It sure is nice of you to poke your head back into the thread you started yourself. However, on page 2 I asked you a question and you haven’t written here since. Do you still refuse to reply?November 16, 2008 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #625444NobodyMember
The looks, shapes, and sizes of people reminds me rather of the Victorian era circus.
You enter the circus and pass by the Big Fat Lady or the Dwarf. You see the Tall Man over 10′ high and the Bearded Lady. They greet you with a cherry “Hello” and you walk on by horrified and wary.
Then you walk through the Hall of Mirrors and proclaim “Do I really look that fat?” walking further through you then declare ” Am I that small and wiry looking?” and further on “Is that scary odd looking person really me?”
We spend too much time looking and judging. We envisage a world of utopia, perfection. But it’s not like that. The world is like a circus made up of all sorts but underneath all are human beings with emotions and feelings.
Stop being petty and judgmental about size 2 and 4 and 10 and 14’s etc. Stop judging Chassidim. Stop saying everyone wants a slim, pretty spouse. This whole thread is getting so out of order and I am surprised at some of the comments being made which show a shallowness in many people here. Some people truely see beauty within. Some of you may find that hard to believe but that’s sorry for you that you find it hard to believe. Some people, chassidim or otherwise after a short meeting or several feel comfortable enough with the other person to agree to make a life together and good luck to them that they are not on a cosmetic level as others. Don’t assume they are not happy. Why shouldn’t they be?
I am fed up reading the comments about people gaining weight after birth, and how they look before or after dating/marriage/birth. I am fed up with some of the senseless and stupid comments being made on this thread. I am truely staggered at some of the immature remarks being made. They are not befitting frum people. They are not befitting polite, well mannered people full stop.
As I have said before, the written word is mighty powerful and some comments here have been made before thought. Think before you write.November 16, 2008 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #625445outoftownerMember
torahls1, sorry I don’t respond to shtusim and to people who don’t ask questions to get real answers, but rather to fight their point without caring what anyone else says. Enough people answered back to the meshugas that you wrote, you don’t need to hear more from me. I didn’t start this thread to fight with people. I started it to express an issue.November 16, 2008 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #625446Chuck SchwabParticipant
DEAR FELLOW JEWS!
THIS, YES THIS, obsession with “looks” and beauty IS THE ONE AND ONLY REASON FOR TODAY’S “SHIDDUCH CRISIS.”
If so many people would not be seek such VANITY, the shidduch crisis would DISAPPEAR!November 16, 2008 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #625447notpashutMember
finding your wife attractive is vanity??
it’s a halacha. (& common sense).November 17, 2008 1:42 am at 1:42 am #625448yashrus20Member
You know what everyones right lets marry an obese girl b/c if we don’t its considered shallow on top of that she can be stuipid and etc.. Listen girls want a guy who learns well and/or can support. Why is that not shallow? well mabye b/c im gonna be stuck with a pashuta yid, or live in the dumps. Well the only women im ever going to be with the only one im ever going to love is my wife. No but your right what about the girls its not fair to them! So just like we try to make money (srry girls we learn for god not you) so we can enjoy our life in this world. So to if you cared about your life youl try your best with what god gave you to make yourself wanted. The shidduch crisis has nothing to do with the shallowness of today. Its the Feminist Pigs (LEFTISTS) who tell the girls not to loose weight just to spite everyone (why is it beis yaakov girls tend to lok better than modern girls) well its only hurting you.November 17, 2008 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #625449[email protected]Participant
I am not understanding, you are agreeing that it is ok to ask a girl to be skinny for shidduchim? that it is a normal thing to ask for?November 17, 2008 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #625450havesomeseichelMember
come on yashrus20!!!! i am 120% not a leftist in any way and i dont think healthy girls should have to lose weight to be considered for a shidduch! A girl asking for someone who learns/works is the same thing as asking hashkafa/personality/what-type-are-you questions and should not be put into the same box as weight!!! You can compare weight to girls asking about height/weight of the men, but still- as long as he/she is healthy- what’s the problem!
By the way, There are no added benefits of health to being a size 2 rather then a 4 (for a 5 foot tall girl), so dont give me any nonsense about the health of the girls. Being underweight is also an issue in health!November 18, 2008 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #625453[email protected]Participant
I reall dont think mother know what they want anymore, because everyone wants someone skinny, but last night when I got a shidduch call I was able to tell the mother how skinny my friend was, she said how skinny, I said size two, she said well I heard she is a bone, so I had to convince the mother she looks healthy skinny. because people will never be happy, its too fat or too skinnny…maybe they are looking for size 4-8 nowNovember 18, 2008 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #625454
Yashrus20, I really don’t appreciate being called a pig (and that’s quite an understatement. I hold back from using stronger language to express my hurt and disappointment because I for one don’t wish to offend anyone.)
Nobody is advocating marrying a girl just because one feels sorry for her. It doesn’t do anyone any favors to build a marriage based on pity when there is no attraction or love. (Yes, both need to be present in order for a marriage to work.)
I am no authority on the shidduch scene and cannot say with any level of credibility what is causing the “crisis”. (Neither can anyone else on this forum; I would wager that no one here is a shadchan or they would have spoken up by now.) Nevertheless, I do see a lot of shallowness in what many, though certainly not all, bochurim are looking for, and as has been said before, the girls have a similar issue. It bears repeating that many of the girls who are rejected out of hand because of their weight are not in fact obese or unhealthy, but simply do not match up to whatever unrealistic standard the boys want, be it size two or four or whatever the case is.
Girls who are at healthy weights for their body type (everyone is different, so it’s impossible to impose a uniform standard) should not be expected to lose weight in order to get a shidduch. I say this not out of spite, but out of concern for the girls’ well-being, not to mention self-esteem. A girl who tries to completely change herself around to please a mate (this can apply to weight as well as personality, habits, likes and dislikes) will find herself in a failed marriage. She will be unhappy because she is forcing herself to go against her nature, and he will be unhappy because he will eventually discover that his marriage is based on a lie and that his wife is not the person he thought she was. This, of course, is an extreme example, but it does happen.
I don’t know where you get this idea that Bais Yaakov girls are better looking that modern girls. I have heard many people say the opposite, but having been exposed to both groups, I don’t think there is a general difference. Each girl is an individual and so should be looked at subjectively. There are attractive Bais Yaakov girls and unattractive Bais Yaakov girls, just as there are attractive modern girls and unattractive modern girls. Mind you, attractiveness itself is subjective, so a girl might be attractive to one bochur and not to another. I overheard a conversation just this morning between two men on a bus discussing the attractiveness of Israeli girls as opposed to American girls. They each had completely opposite viewpoints.
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