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  • #1525191

    icemelter
    Participant

    So what would be the most “accurate” siddur nowadays or closest to the original tefillos?

    #1525435

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The little I know: Nobody says that any of the omissions I spoke of were forgeries. They have their roots in poskim that well predated the Gra and Baal HaTanya. If you wish, you can believe that everyone in all of Europe davened traditional Ashkenaz until the Gra and Baal HaTanya came along a took a bunch out and then they switched. But, I think that would be like believing everyone in America kept Chalav Yisroel perfectly until Reb Moshe came and gave them a heter. It may sound nicer, but it’s naive.

    #1525436

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “So what would be the most “accurate” siddur nowadays or closest to the original tefillos?”

    That’s a loaded question. As you can see, there are posters here who go with certain shittas which don’t believe that older implies more accurate.

    Does anyone know what they use in the Breuer’s Shul? They seem like the kind of place that would strive to find the oldest version.

    #1525610

    Meno
    Participant

    What were the “original” tefillos? The way the avos davened?

    #1525733

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin,

    “I like your point, but davening with Yitzchok Yair would in no way prepare you for these situations. It only has the shir shel yom after musaf and only has bameh madlikin before maariv.”

    That is true for the shir shel yom (I thought there was a note, but checked and it is not so), but by bameh madlikin there is a Gadolhadorah kavanna-destroying note at the top of the page that some are noheig to say it after maariv.

    #1525818

    icemelter
    Participant

    Original tefillos maybe referring to times of Beis Hamikdash when there was a more established structure to davening. From what I understand though, it’s nusach Ashkenaz which most resembles it and dates back closest to Bayis Shayni

    #1526096

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    LC, surely you realize Sphardim wouldn’t agree with that statement. As you can see of this thread, everyone is just going to say that their own Nusach is the most accurate.

    #1526114

    The little I know
    Participant

    NCB:

    The omissions of the GRA and Baal Hatanya were not necessarily because of the forgeries, though some were. I can cite specifics if you wish. More importantly, they were both extremely entrenched in Kaballah, and they applied their Torah knowledge to nusach.

    The reality is that the prevailing Nusach Ashkenaz is considerably closer to “most accurate” than the common Nusach Sfard. It is more directly based on Rav Heidenheim’s siddur, and is much closer to the Ashkenazic foundations in halacha. The Ari Zal was far closer to a Kabbalistic based nusach, and there are variations of the mesorah from the Ari Zal among various talmidim of his. Many of his established nuschaos were codified By Rav Chaim Vital, his most prolific talmid. The Baal Shem Tov adopted many of these mesoros of the Ari Zal, and these are seen in the common Nusach Sfard. Tragically, the fact that these were not codified properly, there were different mesoros, and hence the variations seen in minhagim of different chassidim who recite Nusach Sfard with specific additions or omissions of certain words. Publishers followed this chaos, and each rendered decisions of what to publish in their siddurim.

    One can access a huge number of Siddurei Ha’Ari Zal, whether in seforim stores or online. The variations are interesting, and many instances of these are based on different kavanos al pi kabbalah.

    As for the “most accurate” nusach, the only reaction to that is to redirect the concern to the kavanah involved in davening. HKB”H will understand what we say, even if words are omitted or mispronounced, much as a father understands his child whose speech is not fully developed. It is wise to spend time studying siddur to have a better grasp of the content of tefilah, so that our experience in standing in the presence of the Shechinah is a wholesome, emotional process, as opposed to the completion of a chore that is required to move on to whatever is next in the schedule.

    #1526356

    icemelter
    Participant

    For all those supporting the Artscroll “swipeless” system, you are forgetting the fact that you have to swipe to vehi noam, on motzei Shabbos in between shemona esrei and Aleinu which is so annoying and takes you out of focus. Would it have been so hard to include it right after shemona esrei and aleinu just like almost all other “simple” siddurim?

    #1526418

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Would it have been so hard to include it right after shemona esrei and aleinu just like almost all other “simple” siddurim?

    What’s strange is that they do that in the Sefard siddur.

    #1526439

    icemelter
    Participant

    Daas- why would it be any different?
    It kind of makes you just want to skip it rather than start searching for it or looking for the page number. Not sure why they do that.

    #1526442

    Milhouse
    Participant

    “What were the “original” tefillos? The way the avos davened?”

    The Avos had no nusach, they just prayed from the heart. That’s how it was until the beginning of the 2nd Bayis. Anshei Knesses Hagedolah laid out a basic framework for how a tefillah should be structured. They prescribed 18 berachos, specifying how they should begin and end, and what their general topic should be. But it was still up to the individual shliach tzibur to improvise within that structure. Not everyone could do it, so you went to shul and listened to the shliach tzibur’s prayers and fulfilled your obligation. Chazal said “do not make your prayer fixed”. Only after the gemara’s time, in the time of the ge’onim, did prayer-leaders start writing fixed siddurim. And once that happened everyone who could afford a siddur could daven for himself.

    There were several siddurim of the geonic period, but <i>all</i> of our modern nuschaos are based on Siddur Rav Amram Gaon. We don’t know what this originally looked like, because there are many manuscripts claiming to be this siddur, that all differ from each other in details, but the basic outline is the same.

    #1526479

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Maybe the Nusach sphard omits all the other motzei shabbos stuff, which altogether would be too much to insert in a gray box after the amidah.

    #1526882

    takahmamash
    Participant

    My favorite siddur, alas, has not be printed in many years. It was called Minchas Yerushalayim – a small but thick siddur of about 1500 pages. It had EVERYTHING in there that would be related to davening. I wore out 4 of them. It’s my understanding that the family that holds the publishing rights no longer permits printing, and that’s a pity.

    #1526914

    The little I know
    Participant

    Milhouse:

    How the Avos davened is not quite so simple. What we do know is that Avrohom Avinu established Shacharis, Yitzchok Avinu established Mincha, and Yaakov Avinu established Maariv. Precisely what they recited is unclear. There is a very interesting source that suggests that their tefilos were quite similar to those we say today. I refer you to the sefer Beis Elokim (written by the Mabi”t – a contemporary and close friend of the Beis Yosef). In Shaar Hayesodos – I think Perek 59 or 60, he inquires about how Yidden davened prior to the codification of the Anshei Knesses Hagedola. He proceeds to state that their tefilos were basically the same as we have today, and describes this in detail. I believe there are other opinions. There are other references that address tefilos of the Avos in the terms of the tefilos we say today. So it’s not quite simple.

    #1526968

    icemelter
    Participant

    That’s what I don’t understand why good siddurim and seforim just go out of print. If they are good why stop printing?
    Also I don’t understand why different siddur prints don’t make a large font version of their siddur for people who need it. I’m sure there are enough alter Yidden or anyone who has difficulty with small font, who can use them.

    #1527401

    The little I know
    Participant

    LC:

    Check seforim stores. There are several siddurim that have rather large fonts, and there are also several prints of siddur that are made with really large letters to accommodate those Yidden whose eyesight ain’t great anymore. (There are siddurim from many publishers that are made for the baalei tefiloh and are generally oversized versions of their regular publications.) Those made for the blind (legally blind) are quite limited, but are nevertheless available. Since most publishers do not make these, there is far less choice regarding nusach.

    #1527747

    icemelter
    Participant

    @little- with all due respect, shatz siddur isn’t practical for anyone to move around with. They are huge and heavy.
    Regarding large print, I know there are publishers who make them but I was referring to why publishers don’t make large versions of their regular siddurim which people are used to using, rather than having to use a different version only because they have difficulty with the small print.

    #1528080

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    litvishechossid,

    “For all those supporting the Artscroll “swipeless” system, you are forgetting the fact that you have to swipe to vehi noam, on motzei Shabbos in between shemona esrei and Aleinu which is so annoying and takes you out of focus.”

    I think this is an issue of personal preference. I would rather flip to vehi noam once per week on motzei Shabbos rather than having to skip forward two pages five times a week. Also, I’m guessing Artscroll wants to keep the vehi noam together with all of the other additional pesukim that some say after Shabbos. Absent having a separate machzor for every single daily permutation, there’s no way to avoid the need to flip around the siddur entirely. By using the same siddur regularly, one can become pretty familiar with the flips. One place I do get thrown is by the sefiras haomer tables, but there is no way to get around it unfortunately (with a printed siddur – yes cell phone people, I anticipate your response).

    #1528102

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Little, the Mabit’s views are interesting but not historical. It is a historical fact that there was no such thing as a fixed nusach until the times of the geonim, and that in their days there were several *very different* nuschaos, of which only one survived, that of Rav Amram Gaon. All Jewish communities today use Rav Amram’s nusach, (with only slight variations), but 1200 years ago this was not yet the case, so how can we suppose that 3500 years ago it was?

    #1528124

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Why is it that in most shuls, there is ONE regular whose voice rises above all others (including the baal tefillah) and somehow manages to have the worst pronunciation and cadence for the ivrit and also manages to mangle the melody of the local nusach. Its the heimeshe version of that great commercial picturing an artic landscape with tens of thousand of identical penguins with ONE having a bubble over its head singing out of tune, “I wanna be ME!!!!”

    #1528142

    icemelter
    Participant

    Avram- it’s not 5 pages extra. Somehow all other siddurim managed to squeeze it in right before aleinu without any issue. In face it’s usually separated on the bottom half of the page or uses up just one full page.

    Flipping one page is much easier than 100. I know that they may have wanted to make a special section for motzei shabbos, but also including it in maariv as well would not have made the siddur that much thicker. If that’s too much they could also take out ashrei in mincha and just force everyone to flip to the ashrei in shacharis. No need to waste pages with duplicates.

    #1528160

    laskern
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer O”CH 15, explains that the ashkenaz davenen has the same hidden kavonos as the sefard, but since the Ari z”l was a sefardi, he revealed them for sefard davenen. Since we don’t understand them anyway, it does not make a difference. Does who do, should daven sefard as his rebbies did. The ashkenaz davenen goes back to the destruction of the second Beis Hamikdash.

    #1528222

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    litvishechossid,

    “Avram- it’s not 5 pages extra.”

    I didn’t say it was.

    “Flipping one page is much easier than 100.”

    Sure, and maybe the difference for you is such that you’d rather flip the page 5 times a week to avoid the big motzei Shabbos flip. That’s reasonable, and by all means use a siddur that includes it in the weekday maariv. I stand by what I wrote before. I’ve used siddurim that include it and don’t, and I personally prefer the latter.

    “I know that they may have wanted to make a special section for motzei shabbos, but also including it in maariv as well would not have made the siddur that much thicker. If that’s too much they could also take out ashrei in mincha and just force everyone to flip to the ashrei in shacharis. No need to waste pages with duplicates.”

    Artscroll and other siddur publishers do their best to reach a balance between avoiding thick tomes with the same tefillos copied multiple times and minimizing page flipping. Neither can be completely avoided, choices have to be made, and not everybody will be pleased 100% of the time. If having vihi noam between kaddish and aleinu is super important to you, and you can remember that by motzei Shabbos it’s a half kaddish and not a full one before vihi noam, and then you do a full kaddish afterwards, and you don’t mind not having havdala right there – all things that you get explicitly by Artscroll using the layout it does, then by all means use a siddur that puts vihi noam there. I personally would rather see the half kaddish and full kaddish spelled out and have havdala there too, and don’t mind flipping to the end of the Shabbos davening section to get it.

    Do you get upset that you have to flip from the morning brachos to the Shabbos pesukei dzimra every Shabbos morning?

    #1528297

    icemelter
    Participant

    Laskern-Do you mean “Sefard” or “Sefaradi”? 2 different things. Many Ashkenaz or Chassidish daven sefard. Sefardim daven Sefaradi or Edot Hamizrach.

    Didnt the Chasam Sofer daven from an Arizal siddur?

    Also if we are always thinking about the Beis Hamikdash and trying to do things to get closer to it, how come the nusach was changed since then? Wouldnt that be the best way to daven since it was in the times of the Bayis actually standing? Or did we need to add to and change the words around in order so that this Beis Hamikdash would never be destroyed? Im half kidding.

    #1528452

    icemelter
    Participant

    Avram the only reason I bring it up is because artscroll became standard in almost all shuls. That’s why I can’t just use another siddur to my liking unless I bring my own which I’d rather not.

    Also when you flip to vihiy Noam you also have to flip back to aleinu so it back and forth. I haven’t seen this in any other siddur. It definitely isn’t ideal.
    Again flipping one page to aleinu is really not a big deal. Do you complain about turning pages when you daven? So why would one extra page to turn be such a deterrence for you? Besides thats not the only issue. I don’t think everyone is so happy with the small robotic typefont. Like it was typed on word or something.

    #1528458

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    litvishechossid,

    “Also when you flip to vihiy Noam you also have to flip back to aleinu so it back and forth. I haven’t seen this in any other siddur. It definitely isn’t ideal.

    The Yitzchak Yair has aleinu back there (after all the additional pesukim), as well as the two kaddishes and havdala. No need to flip back to the weekday maariv.

    “Again flipping one page to aleinu is really not a big deal. Do you complain about turning pages when you daven?”

    Bitterly. (just kidding)

    “So why would one extra page to turn be such a deterrence for you?”

    Probably because I’m so familiar with the Yitzchak Yair. But I also prefer bentchers where the al hanissim additions for Chanuka and Purim don’t take up a full two pages. So it’s just a personal preference.

    “Besides thats not the only issue. I don’t think everyone is so happy with the small robotic typefont. Like it was typed on word or something.”

    Agreed about the font. One of my favorite fonts is actually in the “Tefillas Shai” siddur from Feldheim – it’s a very attractive siddur, though my copy is quite small, and it is more geared towards davening in E”Y. It also has vihi noam right there in the weekday maariv.

    #1528481

    midwesterner
    Participant

    A lot of the comments here remind me of a famous line from R’ Shmuel Kunda z”l.

    “No pizza? My, how the Yidden suffered in Golus!!”

    There are so many choices of siddurim, just figure out what works for you, and use that. And for whoever complained that his shul only uses Artscroll, either ask the gabboim to take other options into consideration, or dig into your own pocket, and sponsor a few of the kind you like.

    PS. DY’s comment has bothered my for years. Why does Tefilas Shlomo have Vihi Noam in weekday maariv, and Yitzchok Yair requires you to flip to 262?!

    #1528462

    laskern
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer says in the middle of the above teshuva that the shiluach tzibbur would daven ashkenaz with everyone else including the son of the Hafloh the Machnei Levi and the Chasam Sofer himself except his Rebbies the Hafloh and Rabbi Nason Adler who knew the proper kavonos in the sefard davenen as revealed by the Ari z”l.

    #1529516

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    LC, I think Artscroll’s logic with the vehi noam is that, if they put it before weekday aleinu, it would look like they were condoning/supporting the practice of skipping all the other motzei Shabbos tefillos. They don’t seem to like legitimizing omissions regardless of how commonplace; I refer again the the infamous benching gray box…

    As for the fact that they do have the vehi noam before aleinu in their Sphard siddur, maybe the minhag of most Chassidim is not to say the other stuff so they don’t mind condoning it there? I’m not sure.

    #1529508

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer davened Nusach Ashkenaz.

    The Arizal was Ashkenazi, by the way. If he were born Sphardishe there would be nothing to talk about, Nusach-wise.

    #1529549

    icemelter
    Participant

    The nusach by Chasam Sofer was ashkenaz but I think he himself davenes from an Arizal siddur. He learned kaballah from Rabbi Nosson Adler.

    Was the Arizal half sefardi from the mother side? But what difference if he was ashkenaz or sephardi? His nusach is based on kaballah isn’t it?

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