September 4, 2008 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #621667
I’m sorry you couldn’t comprehend me (nor anyone else here for that matter) from all the way up there on your pedestal. Hmmm, last I learned, it is worse to kill a person then to say loshon harah about them. Yes, embarrassment is a form of murder in Judaism. Any other Mussar speeches or advice, “Rebitzen,” for us bad, bad people on the INTERNET? Yikes!September 4, 2008 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #621668
I give up. I wish you Hatzlacha. Perhaps some day, you will better understand these issues. Your attempt to frame my words as “Rebbetzin” or frummy is so base, but worth it for a good laugh.
Parenthetically, I guess you don’t consider your words “embarrassment? Yikes!September 5, 2008 3:47 am at 3:47 am #621670
I intended to write “OFF base”, but “base” is not a bad stand-in. Lol.September 5, 2008 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #621671
ModernLakewoodGuy – I just want you to know that you, and your wife are not alone when it comes to dealing with this kind of disrespect, and insult. The next time this happens she can say, “excuse me, but I do not believe you are my Rav, and therefore I do not owe you an explanation of any kind.” or say, Ma’am, that was very insulting of you to say, you have just embarrassed me in public.” or say nothing at all. These are just a couple of examples you can use the next time this happens.
I for one think that tichels are very beautiful, and modest (& a whole lot cheaper as well). Be true to who you are, and don’t worry about what other people think of you, or say to you (easier said than done). You can also talk to your Rav and see what he thinks of this, because if he says it is perfectly permissible to wear a tichel at weddings or to shul then you’ve got your official answer, and your wife can tell these ladies that her Rav says it’s kosher, and she answers to him, not some random woman.
Hope this helped, and have a Great SHABBOS!September 5, 2008 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #621673
Some guys in lakewood have a similar problem when it comes to yarmulkahs, is it leather, suede, velvet, nylon, is it 4 panel, 6 panel, 1 panel? Is it size 5, size 1, bobby pin, metal clip, one layer, two layered. Do you wear it perched near the front of your head, off the side, or on the crown? does it have a rim?
Be careful which model you chose for there will certainly be someone who will not agree and look down on youSeptember 5, 2008 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #621674
“yoshilitt, why don’t you produce hubby yossisiegal for a good yocheved defense?”
UJM, now where’s your manners? Yoshi summoned him as per your request; now welcome him nicely :).September 7, 2008 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #621676
eh.. i just wear a baseball cap mostly, solves that whole yamakah problem, but good point with that tooSeptember 7, 2008 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #621677
Sarah: I definitely see your point about motzie shem ram and loshon hora. But we aren’t talking about specific people, only specific issues that exist in our community. If we don’t address them in a meaningful way, they will not just go away. I do appreciate your opinion though and its always good to have conflicting points of view
Yossi: i got a good laugh at your yarmulke post, its so true! There are way too many types and people automatically form judgements about you based on what kind you wear, ill just stick with my baseball cap!
Will: What kind of ulterior motives are you referring to? I was not trying to imply something negative about women who wear shietels – all the power to them, i was just raising the issue of how they look down at people who aren’t like them
LessChumras: I agree with you 100%, thank you for bringing some sanity to this post!
UJM: What is with your obsession with yoshi? It seems highly inappropriate that you are stalking her and harrasing her online. I would be very careful about what you are doing here. Does your wife know about this kind of unkosher online activity you engage in?
ABCD: Thank you for your understanding. That incident with the boy was shocking, and I hope it was isolated!
Yoshi: I do agree with most of what you posted. However, lakewood can still be wholesome, we just have to address the un-wholesome peopleSeptember 7, 2008 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #621678
Your wife took the comment in a negative way, while the woman may not have been trying to insult her. If it is the norm, in that shul, to wear shaitels on Shabbos, then maybe your wife just stuck out like a sore thumb. As far as the kippah, same rules apply. If you are going to a black hat type shul, and you are wearing a leather kippah, don’t be surprised when you get looks, you are insulting them by dressing in such a way. You must respect the rules of the shuls, and community’s you belong to.September 7, 2008 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #621679
Listen, it could be worse. I allow my four wives to wear burqas that expose their eyes and they were threatened with bleach in Beit Shemesh. When I saw that the ekonomika did not have a Badatz hechsher, I was furious and called the Mishmeres Hatznius myself. Fortunately my oldest wife was wearing a tin foil burqa anyway and she was the only one who was splashed with the bleach during the ensuing melee…………….September 7, 2008 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #621680
T.Black, would you say that if a black hatter was in a non black hat shul he should take his hat off, and put on a sroogie, or if he is at a syrian minyan, he should take his hat off and put on a big velvet yarlmuka or on of those satin ones? if you answer no, you are a hypocrite, and i do wear a hat, so dont people go and say i have an inferiority complex.
“must respect the rules of a shul”. what shul has rules regarding hats and shaitels? if you went to a simcha in one of the frummer black hat sfard shuls, would yor wife wear a tichel, since they dont wear sheitels in accordance with rav ovadya yosef? doubtful, so go drink your kool-aid, and leave everyone alone.
“and communities you belong to”. what communities? unless you live in parts of israel which truly have communal structure as far as levels of frumkeit go, your in a really sheltered box to think that communities in the USA actually have standards. we have shteiblech, young israels, agudahs, torah centers, all over the place, all with different minhagim and levels. even lakewood has a young israel and an agudah.
and a side point, nowhere in the original post did it say she was in shul. it seems that this happened on the street.September 8, 2008 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #621681
Mariner made some really excellent points. We tend to think that “frum” means only a particular levush or derech, when in fact there is a wide and eclectic variety of frum Jews (some of whom do not even use the word “Yidden” in their daily speech) and ALL of them are shomrei Torah u’mitzvos. I think it is of value for elements of the frum world to recognize that there are shivim panim l’Torah, and that maybe their own particular path is no better or worse than another one.December 24, 2019 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1813735
I am happy that my wife wears a tichel. They are much more modest than a sheitel!December 24, 2019 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1813803
There is an argument about wearing a sheitel alone without any other covering on the street between the Shiltei Hagiborim who might be matir whereas the Beer Sheva, 17 or 19 assers. There is a sefer on this topic called הכתר והכבוד לחי עולמים it is full of pictures of rebbis where the talmidim quote the view of their rebbis.December 27, 2019 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1814707
blue shirt got it right. I would like to add that the opening poster’s story illustrates the thin line between yiddishkeit piety and obsessive-compulsive disorder. If we forget why Hashem wants us to do something, or that why we do something is because Hashem commanded it, we are just a bunch of screwballs.December 27, 2019 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1814726
Its absolutely silly to debate here in the abstract what would be the “appropriate” head-covering for a woman or man. As so many posters have noted, it depends on who, where and when. Do what you are comfortable with based on your hashkafah, the “minhag hamokom’, etc. with consideration of the advice you may solicit and receive from your local rav/posek. Even then, there will be occasions where you may want to deviate from your regular “lvush” for out-of-town travel, work meetings, simchas from another side of the tzibur etc. If you are comfortable with yourself, don’t be intimidated by some yenta in Lakewood, or some baal ha’bos in Borough Park.December 31, 2019 8:20 am at 8:20 am #1815416
I often request to my wife that she wear a snood / hat / scarf / etc. instead of her shaitel when we go out, so she can hopefully influence the insecure, new-wife, celebrity wannabees into doing the right thing.
Stop this expensive shaitel nonsense. It is the scourge of modern day Judaism.January 6, 2020 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1819453
Whether it’s snoods or sheitels, the mitzvahs of ahavas yisrael and chesed require us not to be snooty or obnoxious to fellow Jewish women, regardless of what’s on their heads. So the snood or sheitel debate is secondary.January 7, 2020 8:27 am at 8:27 am #1819673
A woman wearing a shaitel is deserving of snooty and obnoxious behavior until she does teshuva.January 7, 2020 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1820867
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