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Nidarim81a. Question: Why Is it uncommon for children of talmeidei chachamim to also be talmeidi chachamim? (or bnei torah. See Ran). Gemorah has 5 reasons.
1. Hashem made it that way so people won’t assume it’s a yerushah for them and not even try…now they see its attainable.
2. If it would stay in the family it would lead to boastfulness.
3. Because in fact they do lord over the public (this answer seems like a punishment)
4. Because they call people donkeys. Rashi: Because they don’t give people proper kavoad and they scorn them..( a punishment).
5. They don’t make a brocha on Torah first. See famous Ran. Torah isn’t chashuv enough to them (again punishment).
Rav Ashi said they call people donkeys. Meaning degrade those with less Torah knowledge…have people observed this?
edited (better late than never)
Now yeshivish isn’t the same as a ben torah or talmid chacham…since it typically has a much more cultural meaning. In fact one can be yeshivish without real yideas hatorah, or not yeshivish and be a talmid chochom. (Although yeshivish is an ambiguous term, like modern…so it means different things to different people)
Do you find that people who are genuinely machshiv all people (not just in speech) tend to more commonly have children who are genuine torah scholars?
Parents have a job of being rope models to their children 24-7.
When parents are doing their jobs as role models without telling their children so you see what I’m doing as a parent and how I do it? …… No that’s not true role modeling but actually what i would call chinuch. Honest role modeling is when a parent does something nice for someone or helps in the house and the children see and watch what their parent is doing when they know its completely not that parent’s responsibility but he’s doing it to help. That’s called great role modeling ad a parent and a kiddush Hashem and can make his children into genuine Torah scholars when they grow up..
May we all be great role models to everyone watching us and always make a kiddush Hashem in everything we do
Also, many to most Talmidei Chachamim have large families, and not all of their children necessarily follow the same path.
I certainly agree with the general point of the article, which is, after all, a Gemara! However – I have not seen a correlation at all. Of course, my perception is greatly limited. If the Gemara says that this is a cause, then it is a factor.
Based on what the OP is describing, if a Ben Torah or Yeshivish person or Talmid Chochom has a son or children that are also a Ben Torah or Yeshivish or Talmid Chochom, then none of the criticism cited in the OP is applicable to him, since his child/children ARE like him.
Yungerman
Though what you say is true, it doesn’t explain how so many families have a kid off the derech.
Why would the same parent/role model have several “regular “ kids and one off the derech when they all had the same role model ?
A few years ago I went to daven in an EY kollel with my brother. I saw the Rosh Kollel learning with a heavily tattooed young man. I commented to my brother how nice it is that this talmid chachum does kiruv. He said “that’s his son”
It’s a plague and I don’t think I’m ready to blame the parents.Sorry the thread is PURE loshen Hora,
Greatness skips a generation (at least thats what my kids tell me)
They answer by Chanukah on the Beis Yosef question, why we light eight days as the first day was enough oil to light, so there was no neis? Some oil is left in the pitcher when emptying out. Similarly, the father cannot pass over his knowledge completely to his son.
One of the main innovations of the Baal Shem Tov was the approach to the “poshute Yid.”
In his time many Talmidei Chachomim looked down at poshuteh Yidden who couldn’t receive a proper education and they were considered a lower class that didn’t deserve any of the privileges of the Talmidei Chachomim.
The Baal Shem Tov changed this by putting great emphasis on the holiness and purity of the poshute Yid, how sometimes his sincere words of Tehillim are more dear to Hashem than all the Torah learning of a great scholar.
The Baal Shem Tov embraced and welcomed the poshute Yidden, and inspired them with Ein Yaakov and stories of tzaddikim, and many of his opponents couldn’t handle this and continued to degrade them.
מנחם שמו
We are discussing a general tendency and not anything in particular, so I don’t think it is lashon hara. If one knows the reason, can improve on it.
My father was a poshete yid like that who would sit everyday and said Tehilim. I heard a mashel from him which I said over at his hesped. A merchant travels on a ship oversees and takes along merchandise to sell. The ship encounters a storm wind and he gets thrown out to a desert island. Being depressed, he plays around with the sand and pebbles. After a while, a ship comes and he arrives home. He starts crying to his wife moaning how he lost everything and as he takes his handkerchief out to wipe his eyes, something falls out. They examine it and the wife screams out, do you know what this is? It is a diamond, a brilliant. So the man says, I must have collected it when I played around with the pebbles. If I would have known its value, how much more I would have been able to collect but I can’t go back there as I don’t know where it is.
After life when we are held to task what have we done this world, we start crying. When we take our handkerchief out, something falls out. As they examine it carefully, they notice that an Amen fell out. Do you have anymore of this which is so precious over here? If I would have known its value how much more I could have collected but I cannot go back anymore.@torahlife, or what other user name you are using this week, if you read the thread called Yiddish insults, its about the use of animals in yiddish insults, [ferd, key, hint] nothing more or less, and this just topic just begs for LH, not the place were we want to be in the 9 days
All five answers above have to do with taking the Torah and the status it brings for granted. That can lead to arrogance, which is part of answers 2 through 5.
Rashi says that a tzadik ben tzadik is greater than tzadik ben rasha. A tzadik ben tzadik is harder to live up to. When a father is a talmid chacham, sometimes, it is harder for the son to reach the level of the father. So he does not reach it or gives it up altogether.
Reb Eliezer, isn’t it ironic? This thread is about Talmidei Chachomim’s children being less involved in Torah, and you are telling a story of a poshete yid whose son is a great talmid chochom! 😊
The Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote in Hayom Yom (25 Shevat):
Saying Tehillim every day crucially affects the one saying it, his children, and his grandchildren.24 Shevat:
The Tzemach Tzedek once said: If you would know the power of Tehillim and its effect in the highest heavens, you would recite it constantly. The kapitelach of Tehillim break through all barriers and ascend higher and higher.The Frierdiker Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rayatz) writes that the world stands on the poshute Yidden who say Tehillim despite not understanding the words. (Likkutei Diburim)
מנחם שמו
I don’t think we need our kids to be talmidei chachomim. As a parent, our job is to make sure they are frum, and have a love for Judaism and the Torah.
It doesn’t say that when giving din v’cheshbon you’ll be asked why you weren’t a talmud chacham. It says you’ll be asked if you set aside time to learn.
I just want my kids to be frum. I don’t need them to learn the entire Shas. As long as they are shomer Torah u’mitzvos, I’ll be happy.
Then again, I’m not a talmud chacham myself, so this whole thread doesn’t really apply to me.It is a mistake to confuse the Gemora that addresses the child who is not a talmid chochom with the contemporary concept of OTD.
We are witness today to families who raise many children to successful lives as ehrliche Yidden and talmidei chachomim while there is one child that just isn’t. And many of the Gedolei Yisroel have noted, אין בית אשר אין שם מת. The issue is pervasive. As much as we need to examine ourselves and our communities to identify the contributing factors, we need to recognize that parents are being given a Divine gift from Hashem – a child that has “special needs” of the spiritual type. If I have a child like that, HKB”H is telling me that He wants me to deal with it. It’s my nisayon and mission in life. Of course, I would want my child to follow in my footsteps, to carry on the heritage of my parents and ancestors. And I davened 3X daily asking for that. Hashem answered my tefilos. He said, “No.” He showed me that He had another direction for me. He wanted me to love the child that was not following my example.
Now that we are completing Chumash Bamidbor, we have covered the majority of major events that occurred during the 40 year trek, from leaving Mitzrayim through the end of the travel to the edge of the Yarden. We are now fully informed about the troubles, ממרים הייתם מיום דעתי אתכם. We read the stories of the eigel, asafsuf, mei merivoh, Zimri, Korach, and more. Throughout these times, HKB”H never missed a day of providing sustendance for Klal Yisroel, מן, בארה של מרים, and the embrace of the ענני הכבוד. Hashem was the loving provider, despite the most blasphemous and ungrateful Klal Yisroel during those times. We were OTD, yet had all the perks of the loved child. Shouldn’t we model that?
I consider myself a talmid chacham being a talmid mechacham by having great rebbies.
Menachem, sometimes people realize what they missed having and they have their children make up for it. How I ended up in the Wiener Yeshiva was not our doing but Hashem. When we arrived to New York after two weeks in Broadway Central Hotel on Bleeker Street (burned down afterwards), the Joint sent us to Crown Heights where we rented an apartment. We went to shul to Cong. Ksav Sofer, where the Rav, a grandson of the Chasam Sofer, was the principal of the Yeshiva. He convinced my father a’h to send me there. Going to Chasan Sofer afterwards was also not our doing. The Wiener Rav, Hadhauser, decreed that the one who does not come back to camp he does not want to see in the yeshiva anymore. I was not crazy about the camp, so I went to look for another yeshiva and ended up there on the East Side.
It says הולך תמים ופועל צדק in the present and not in the past. The father lives on in his child so he continues on walking even after passing on. The Kol Aryeh explains מהלכים בין העומדים the walkers (humans) among the standers (malachim). What are the humans doing among the malachim? We are talking about humans in the after life who live on in their children and those that don’t. So it is worthwhile if the children become talmidei chachamim.
I don’t remember who said this vort,
Well that’s good, it’s awful motzei shem rah.
Mod,
The story that was removed from my post actually brings out a beautiful point, and there is nothing wrong with it. In your opinion…
If I remember correctly this was an actual מעשה שהיה that was mentioned on Halacha Headlines (last year?). I will try to look into it and repost with more accuracy.
I am shocked that from all other posts, this was chosen to be removed!?!?
I’m pretty shocked you don’t understand why it’s a problem.
I agree, this is about intellectual and spiritual achievement, not just being ehrliche or shomer shabbos.
There are similar observations in other intellectual areas that may or may not transfer to Learning:
– regression to the mean. Every exceptionally gifted person passes his genes to kids but chances that they’ll be as or more gifted are slim. Starting that he will probably marry someone not in the same category and just basic stats
– exceptional intellectuals are not always good at chinuch and teaching kids alef-beis. I observed this among chess players and scientists: solid professionals invest at teaching their kids their skill and kids may reach same or higher level; those at the top spend 100% time on their own achievement and their kids are either abandoned or intimidated.
A good parallel for current OTD kids would be Chizkiyahu ha’Melech, who was one of our greatest Tzadikim to the point of having nearly been Mashiach. And his son was Menasheh, the greatest Chotei u’Machti Es Harabim ever, whose actions nearly singlehandedly led to the Churban, and who according to some lost his entire Chelek in Olam Haba.
mobico,
I understand that you are just trying to bring out the point that there can be a great tzaddik whose son strays from his path, but please, don’t compare current OTD kids to Menasheh! Have some compassion! Do you know what these children go through these days?
The Chazon Ish writes that it’s impossible to compare the כופרים of the olden days to people who go off the derech now, due to the unique darkness and concealment of Elokus that exists in our time.
Instead, we must be mekarev them with love and show them the light of Yiddishkeit as much as possible.
(יורה דעה סי’ ב סט”ז)If this is how it was in the time of the Chazon Ish (when the Am Yisroel was full of bochurim who were true lamdonim in Yeshiva who went after the enlightenment etc.), how much more so in our time when the darkness and ignorance is so much greater, חושך כפול ומכופל.
If כל ישראל יש להם חלק בעולם הבא, even including true sinners and רשעים, how much more so these poor lost souls who are suffering from the darkness of almost 2000 years of golus.
(רמב”ם הלכות תשובה פ”ג ה”ה: וכן כל הרשעים שעונותיהן מרבים דנין אותן כפי חטאיהם ויש להן חלק לעולם הבא שכל ישראל יש להם חלק לעולם הבא אף על פי שחטאו)Let’s treat them with the true compassion and sympathy that they need, and with Ahavas Chinam we will bring them back to their heritage, and most importantly the Geula for all Yidden.
מנחם שמו
First of all, every case is different. Menasheh was also a big Talmid Chaccham. The Gemara says he “went off” due to Taivos. Sounds like a fine comparison to many these days to me. I do not recall saying or implying that we should not show any children anything other tham love and compassion.
Secondly, I was making only one point, based on the OP – it is not a new ide that great Talmidei Chachamim have children who are “not like them”.
Thirdly, Ahavas Yisrael is much more powerful than Ahavas Chinam.If Ha-Shem wanted children to be clones of their parents, He would have stuck to a single-gender configuration (similar to unicellular organisms, e.g. amoeba). Remember that according to our traditions, that was the original plan, but that seem to work so Ha-Shem created genders and invented a system of sexual reproduction (rather than relying on cells splitting and cloning off exact replicas). And who are we to question Ha-Shem policies in such matters.
“Ahavas Yisrael is much more powerful than Ahavas Chinam”
mobico, when the Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed, the Gemara tells us it was due to Sinas Chinam.
In other words, not only did they hate Jews (Sinas Yisroel), but it was for no reason whatsoever (he didn’t steal from him, he didn’t hurt him, just pure senseless hate).
The way to be מכפר for this and bring the Geula is through the opposite:
Not only to love Jews (Ahavas Yisroel) because he did something nice for you, or because he is a mentsch, or a perfect shomer Torah u’mitzvos (or wears the same type of hat as you), rather Ahavas Chinam – for no reason, just because he is a Jew.We accomplish more with honey than with vinegar.
Menachem,
I know of no Mekor for the Chiluk you prsent. The term “Ahavas Yisrael” MEANS loving a Jew for no other reason other than he is a Jew. That which he is a Jew IS A REASON to love him. Ahavas Chinam, a term Chazal never used, to me implies that there is no reason to love him but you should anyway. I am not even sure what to do with that.
mobico, the מקור for the chiluk is from the fact that there is a chiluk in regards to שנאה:
When the Gemara describes the reason why the Beis Hamikdash was destroyed, it doesn’t just say that it was because of שנאת ישראל or שנאת אחים (like the lashon haposuk לא תשנא את אחיך), rather it emphasizes that this was שנאת חינם. See יומא ט, א.
Obviously אהבת ישראל is pretty much the same as אהבת חינם. But when using the latter term, we are EMPHASIZING that just as they hated other Jews who did nothing bad to them, so too we love other Jews even if they did nothing good for us.
This term was used by many gedolim in recent generations.
For explanation, see for example, the Lubavitcher Rebbe here:
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15944&pgnum=338If you don’t want to use the term, no problem. But try not to get irked.
Menachem, I agree on greatness of challenges starting at enlightenment. A lot of people lived happily before that without encountering challenges to their faith or simply opportunities to go otd. Spinoza could, but not people of lower abilities. So, there was less concern about amei haatetz in some sense. Yes they were irritating, and sometimes deserving of pity, but nobody worried that a Jewish farmer will stop producing potatoes. We even had extra days to read megillah when they come to the market. Too much to expect them to come on Purim itself, and it was okay. This all changed with haskala, and maybe reaching a new level with current generation, when they can travel the world on the phone before modeh ani.
R’ Menachem,
IMHO, this is the point. The only Heter to hate a Yid is if he is no longer Achicha b’Mitzvos (subject to othe factors in addition). Anything else – personality conflicts, rivalries, etc. – constitutes Ahavas Chinam – for no reason. The default is Ahavas Yisrael. If Ahavah and Sinah can both be Chinam, then the implication is that the deafult state is neutrality. But this is not true. This is what I meant in my comment earlier by Ahavas Yisrael being stronger than Ahavas Chinam.
Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, the term Ahavas Chinam was coined by R’ Kook ZT”L. I did not know that it was used by the Lubavitcher Rebbe. These were great people to be sure! What I have written is based upon my Kabbalah from my Rebbeim.
It does not seem to me that we are in any great disagreement; ultimately, we are espousing the same approach.sometimes kids are embarrased of their holy parents and dont want to be the same way
mobico,
“Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, the term Ahavas Chinam was coined by R’ Kook ZT”L”
This is indeed a widespread misconception. It is first found in the talks of earlier chassidishe rebbes.
See talks of the Kozmirer Rebbe (Rav Yechezkel Taub): כמו שחורבן בית המקדש היה על ידי שנאת חינם, כן לתקן זה צריך אהבת חינם, שכל אחד מישראל יאהב את חבירו בחינם
This was also quoted by his grandson the Modzitzer Rebbe.This is also quoted in the name of the Ahavas Yisroel of Vizhnitz.
“I did not know that it was used by the Lubavitcher Rebbe.”
Yes, he used the term many times. Another example (in connection with Rosh Chodesh Menachem-Av, yahrtzeit of Aharon Hakohen):
:בכך נוספת הדגשה מיוחדת בקשר בין חורבן בית המקדש בחודש אב ומיתת אהרן בר”ח מנחם אב: הסיבה לחורבן בית המקדש השני הייתה החטא של שנאת חנם. והתיקון הוא באותו עניין: הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום ורודף שלום – אהבת חנם
(לקוטי שיחות חי”ח ע’ 412)But anyway, obviously, I agree with you that whatever we call it, the ikar is to actually love every Jew!
I am very happy that so many different leaders agree on the term! And it even has it’s own wiki page.
@menachem are you going off topic again?
@common, I’m going off topic in order to protect the readers from the “PURE loshen hora” of this thread. 😊
RE thanks for bringing up Harav Leibovich from Adas Yereim. I think he was on 84th Street before that. Then to Lee Avenue theatre and Wilson Street.
One small point that I think is important :
The Gemora shouldn’t be read to imply that the way to have children who are Talmidei Chachomim is to NOT be a talmid chochom.
Let’s say for arguments sake that 5 percent of Klal Yisroel are TAlmidei Chachomim. The Gemora isn’t saying that the 95 percent have children who are Talmidei Chachomim and the 5 percent don’t.
The Gemora is asking why we don’t see a higher percentage of children who emulate their parents, as would be expected. And the Gemora gives 5 reasons.I think that it would be reasonable to take out of the Gemora (at least with regard the latter 3 reasons) that working on one’s self not to have these problems AND being a Talmid Chochom, would help one raise such children …
So I have my work cut out for me.
(The first two reasons don’t apply to yeshivush and frumkeit, just Torah).
@menachem, like my rosh yeshaiva use to say, zah nish der khals barzoger
what is barzoger?
the offical worrier
@common saychel, I was just quoting you!
Sometimes we are quicker to point out how someone else needs to fix himself before seeing the same problem in ourselves.
As the Baal Shem Tov explains the reason why Nosson Hanovi gave Dovid Hamelech a mashal for the story of Bassheva, and only after Dovid gave a ruling in that case was he able to apply it to himself.
(הובא בלקוטי מהר”ן קמא קי”ג. וראה גם המבואר בלקוטי שיחות כ”ק אדמו”ר מליובאוויטש ח”ד ע’ 1208)@Menachem, I still stand by my words and you still have a tendancy to go off topic
CS, should it not be a zorger? Zoger is to say. a bezoger is one who tells off.
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