February 10, 2023 10:59 am at 10:59 am #2164712☕️coffee addictParticipant
How can anyone believe anything anymore? (Outside of seeing it live of course)
Pictures can be photoshopped
AI can make up a news story without the reporter being there or even writing it
We have electronics that can change a person’s voice (I wouldn’t be surprised if you can make a computer use your voice to sound exactly like you)February 10, 2023 11:29 am at 11:29 am #2164723akupermaParticipant
And you actually believed that what you’ve been seeing all your life was אמת????February 10, 2023 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #2164727ujmParticipant
Berochim Haboim. This is hardly new.
There is technology today to even make a deep fake video of a person using his image and voice, looking exactly realistic, showing a video of him doing whatever you want him to be seen doing.February 10, 2023 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #2164728
AI actually strengthens a Torah concept. Video and audio evidence is not accepted in a beis din in general; you need witnesses, shtaros, etc…
Now with AI being able to put faces of people onto videos and mimic their voices, even goyishe courts will soon change this policy.February 10, 2023 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #2164729NonImpeditiRationeCogitationisParticipant
Welcome to epistemology, @coffeeaddict! Philosopher Donald Davidson famously said that the reason for a belief is just another belief. While a belief can be justified by the awareness of a sensation, the awareness of a sensation is “just another belief.”February 10, 2023 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #2164747Reb EliezerParticipant
It does not mean one must believe everything, we must trust the source.February 10, 2023 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #2164756
Oh no! I believe coffee’s account was hacked!February 11, 2023 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #2164987☕️coffee addictParticipant
And if the source has lied to you before?
And anyways where do you get that from?February 11, 2023 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #2165029Yserbius123Participant
There are legitimate books questioning entire historical events that everyone “knows” happened because the only reports were third hand years after they happened. Questioning what people tell you, even with pictures and sound, isn’t anything new.
In 1938, the New York Times reported that a CBS drama based on H. G. Wells’s The War of the Worlds was taken as a serious broadcast by thousands of people across the nation. They barricaded themselves in their homes, and some even committed suicide rather than be taken by aliens! They printed a picture of a farmer holding a rifle behind a wall, protecting his home from the invaders.
Well, it never happened. The recording was widely available at any records store, and anyone listening to it would be immediately skeptical (it was announced that this was a special fictional program several times, there were commercial breaks, and the whole fake news broadcast segment was only about half of it, maybe 25 minutes long). And yet people to this day believe it to be true.February 12, 2023 9:31 am at 9:31 am #2165095anonymous JewParticipant
Avira, ujm, and of course, people never lie. Eyewitness testimony is known to be unreliable.February 12, 2023 11:09 am at 11:09 am #2165125
Anon, check out the first piece of meshech chochma in parshas shemos, very fundamental piece of hashkofa. He writes that while we accept neviim, and testimony of witnesses in halacha, it’s a gezeras hakasuv, because even a true navi can go off, like chananiah ben azor, who became a navi sheker and went against yirmiah. Witnesses can lie, and neviim can produce miracles to orove themselves even if they’re lying, so we only believe them because of a gezeras hakasuv.
Not so Moshe rabbeinu and the torah itself; ‘gam becha yaaminu leolam” we believe in nevuas moshe because our ancestors were brought to his level of nevuah, and Hashem told them openly that this is my emissary, listen to his Torah, and of course we heard Hashem giving us the Torah itself. But we don’t believe in it because of krias yam suf or the makos, etc..February 12, 2023 11:13 am at 11:13 am #2165135
My point was that this answers a kasha that people are bothered by; why the Torah doesn’t allow video or photo evidenceFebruary 12, 2023 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #2165234user176Participant
Very true. This is something very new and that will get worse with time. You definitely should not trust random videos forwarded on WhatsApp. The biggest problem is stopping these sources from spreading to those who will believe them. Public opinion can be easily bolstered by fake videos. People generally don’t fact check sources that prove what they already “know.” Videos and pictures without context spread on social media like wildfire. Great efforts will be needed to stop this from happening.February 13, 2023 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #2165368
What is your source that the Torah doesn’t allow video or photo evidence?February 13, 2023 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #2165443
It’s no better than mipi k’savamFebruary 13, 2023 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2165487
That’s only an invalidation when presented as testimony. But for evidence, as in establishing what is true and honest, written documents are also evidence. I’m under the impression that electronic surveillance is used to establish a Torah-Truth. For instance; kashrus oversight.February 13, 2023 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #2165584
Yes, video surveillance is used by hashgochos, even the badatz, but that’s not testimony – like you said, it’s establishing knowledge.
What I’m referring to is if we have a video of a person doing an aveirah, it’s not admissible for chiyuvei misa or makos(even if there’s no hasraah, i.e. a talmid chacham or megadef)
That’s because there’s no hagadah, no al pi shnayim. The camera isn’t an “aid”
Nevermind the mipi ksavam – i retract that part.February 13, 2023 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #2165605GadolhadorahParticipant
AVD: Batei Din throughout the world routinely rely on photocopies and video evidence in their deliberations and the burden is on litigants to demonstrate that such evidence has been tampered with. In many cases, it is physically impossible to present original documents and circumstances preclude any possibility of first-person visual testimony that can otherwise be corroborated by video cameras. There are several well-known cases where a beis din relied on video surveillance in matter involving gittin, theft and hashgachos allowing treifus.February 15, 2023 2:02 am at 2:02 am #2166063Good to knowParticipant
To OP, it’s getting scarier by the day.February 15, 2023 10:35 am at 10:35 am #2166166GadolhadorahParticipant
AVD: Thks for clarifying the distinction you are making between video or graphic “evidence’ versus the halachic requirement for LIVE testimony from witnesses for imposition of certain penalties
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