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chaverim, the mishna in pirkei avos regarding an age for marriage (18) is, I believe, referring to men, not women. It discusses the age at which a boy should start learning torah, mishna, and gemara as well. I do not know of any reference in the torah recommending an age at which women should marry, since women are not commanded to marry as men are.
Why hasn’t the fact that the older a girl is when marrying a Learning boy, the more INDEPENDENT solid footing the couple will be on financially (bec. of savings, education, job prospects, etc), entered into this discussion, increasing the length of time a boy can learn in peace?
But NO, now girls’ parents are practically shoving the girls down to the Chuppah, and promising their life savings away, in fear of having their daughters stay single.
Lkwdfellow, they can go back to E”Y if they have serious parental support (many of the well paying jobs that these girls have don’t transfer to E”Y).
And what if the girls don’t have such substantial savings? What if they’re paying off student loans, buying their own clothes, helping their families, etc? And even if they can put money away, how far will it go?
Tzippi:
I will reiterate: the time learning in Israel before the get married is not nearly as productive as the time in the US both before and after their stint in Israel. Take a poll for yourself of boys who are back in America 2 years.
In a general sense:
There are no perfect answers. It’s easy to disregard all possible solutions as there is this problem or that. Certainly suggestions that are ridiculous or ineffective shouldn’t be considered. However here are the facts.
The present actions (or lack thereof) of our community are creating aprox. 200 agunos a year. Doing nothing will most definitely assure that this travesty continues. Please offer suggestions for alleviating this tragedy both in the short term and in the long term. Being a naysayer does very little toward alleviating the problem. Constructive discussion on viable suggestions is what is needed.
tzippi – then they can learn here in the US. Does it say anywhere that Torah can’t be learnt outside of Eretz Yisroel? If someone is able to go back – great. But, they can learn here also. Perhaps, the boys can also start going a bit younger.
To AZ: you say we’re creating 200 agunos a year. What do you mean by that?!?!?
tzippi, gimme a break, you know very well what AZ means!
200 or so single girls per year, unable to marry single guys EVER, because in the scary game of Shidduch Roulette with winners and losers (similar to musical chairs), there are only so many males available for girls in every age group, with the present age differential in place.
We, as Orthodox Yeshivaleit, can’t look for spouses among other religions/religious levels throughout the world. We are L I M I T E D.
AZ, you are advocating limiting shidduchim between younger women (18-20). So, someone who decides not to go to seminary and wants to start dating right away (or even comes home after the year to date) will have no one to date. She will feel like used garbage.
And, according to you (I don’t know if this is true), people marry one of the first few people they date. So, you are depriving these girls of YEARS of their marriage. If no one wants to start dating them until 20-21 instead of 18-19, they are delaying meeting their match for the sake of others. You still have not addressed this point.
In addition, you will be creating even more of an elitist shidduch scene. The “best” girls (yichus and money etc) will still get dates at 18 and 19. So now, getting married younger will be a real status thing.
PLEASE DO NOT COMPARE A WOMAN WHO DOESNT HAVE A SPOUSE TO AN AGUNAH. That is terrible. There is a BIG difference between a woman who cannot get married because her husband has disappeared and one who has not found someone. An Agunah has distinct halachic characteristics that should not be used to compare this.
lkwdfellow – I strongly disagree that by speeding up men dating we will be “saving lives.” And, a year makes a HUGE difference in a person’s life. So does 6 months. Those that are ready, generally do start dating sooner (at least from the yeshivish guys I know).
Is this a problem is Israel too? Are there more women than men? What about in Europe or other countries?
SJSinNYC – you write – Those that are ready, generally do start dating sooner (at least from the yeshivish guys I know).
That’s not true at all! There are many boys who are ready to start dating younger, but don’t – because their friends are still E”Y. If we change the trend – they’ll be able to come back & date earlier.
And yes, we’ll be saving lives. By bringing more boys onto the market – we will be getting more girls dates & there will be more marriages. If that’s not saving lives – what is???
To SJS:
“…. someone who decides not to go to seminary and wants to start dating right away (or even comes home after the year to date) will have no one to date. She will feel like used garbage”.
NONSENSE!!! if her friends aren’t dating the pressure will be off. The girls can focus on their schooling/jobs, etc.
“….If no one wants to start dating them until 20-21 instead of 18-19, they are delaying meeting their match for the sake of others”.
NONSENSE!!! What is the grave harm of marrying a little later? They might mature?
“…..you will be creating even more of an elitist shidduch scene. The “best” girls (yichus and money etc) will still get dates at 18 and 19. So now, getting married younger will be a real status thing”.
NONSENSE!!! If Gedolim are really behind it L’Tovas Ha’Klal, there will be a minimal amount of Mechutzafim that don’t care. Big deal!
“PLEASE DO NOT COMPARE A WOMAN WHO DOESNT HAVE A SPOUSE TO AN AGUNAH. That is terrible. There is a BIG difference between a woman who cannot get married because her husband has disappeared and one who has not found someone. An Agunah has distinct halachic characteristics that should not be used to compare this”.
NONSENSE!!! Call it AB or CD or EFG, Agunah, or “Singles unable to marry Singles ever”, the pain is very deep for both! Are we measuring pain with a gauge here?
lkwdfellow, that has just been my experience. I recognize that I don’t know a majority of the yeshivish community so in that aspect I could be wrong.
AZOI.IS, you write “NONSENSE!!!!” a lot without backing it up at all. In fact, you assume that the younger women dating are dating because their friends are. Most of the people I know who started dating younger because they wanted to, not because their friends were.
You ask what the grave harm in marrying a little later is? The harm is that she wants to get married and is being delayed for someone else. That isn’t fair to her. Its not up to you to decide when she should get married, but you are trying to control her life for someone elses. Sounds a lot like Animal Farm to me….
A lot of gedolim are behind the takanas against big weddings – but of course there are exceptions (large families and a whole bunch of other things). It will force the shidduch scene to become even more elitist because the “best” girls will still get dates young. And what Rav is going to come out and say that we should delay women getting married?
I never said the pain for a woman who hasn’t found her match isn’t great. I know quite a few older, single women. But, that doesn’t mean you should call them an agunah. Or an almanah or any other term that has HALACHIC ramifications. Lehavdil, its like calling a Church/mosque a shul because its a “house of worship.” (mods if you think this line is inappropriate, please just delete from Lehavdil on)
Can an Agunah marry someone if she wants? NO
Can a single woman marry someone if she wants? YES, if she meets someone to marry. That is a HUGE difference and pretending otherwise is not going to get you anywhere.
If boys marry earlier, someone will have to support them earlier as well. The rich girls will still get first pick, even more than before.
Whay can’t the boys get married at 19-20, anyway? They are also not ready then, and will be supported just as much as they are at 23.
In addition, you will be creating even more of an elitist shidduch scene. The “best” girls (yichus and money etc) will still get dates at 18 and 19. So now, getting married younger will be a real status thing.
I am glad that you put the word “best” in quotes, because it really is off-putting to think that anyone is judged as superior because they have money and/or yichus. That is a BIG mistake that many people make when looking for shidduchim for their children. Fortunes come and go (look at our economy today), and the fact that someone has a famous relative says virtully nothing about the person. If someone would have looked into R’ Akiva’s yichus, he would have had a heck of a bad time trying to get married. Oh wait – his shver DIDN’T want him for a son-in-law!His wife was disinherited for marrying him. The best boys and girls are the ones who show their emesdigkeit, middos tovos, and general ahavas Torah and chessed. And that should be present at ANY age.
Whay can’t the boys get married at 19-20, anyway? They are also not ready then, and will be supported just as much as they are at 23.
Boys at 19-20 are rarely mature enough to be married, unlike girls of the same age (who also may not be sufficiently mature, but in general are more mature than their same age boys)
SJSinNYC:
“AZOI.IS, you write “NONSENSE!!!!” a lot without backing it up at all…..Most of the people I know who started dating younger because they wanted to, not because their friends were”.
A lot of people want a lot of things…..do we all get what we want…do we learn to live without everything we want….that’s one of life’s main challenges.
“You ask what the grave harm in marrying a little later is? The harm is that she wants to get married and is being delayed for someone else. That isn’t fair to her. Its not up to you to decide when she should get married, but you are trying to control her life for someone elses”
It’s not up to me, RIGHT. But it is the responsibility of our Gedolim to help ease the pain of many.
“A lot of gedolim are behind the takanas against big weddings – but of course there are exceptions (large families and a whole bunch of other things). It will force the shidduch scene to become even more elitist because the “best” girls will still get dates young. And what Rav is going to come out and say that we should delay women getting married?”
Even if Takanas are effective to some degree, then goals were accomplished. Imagine how Simchas would look with no Takanas.
“I never said the pain for a woman who hasn’t found her match isn’t great. I know quite a few older, single women. But, that doesn’t mean you should call them an agunah. Or an almanah or any other term that has HALACHIC ramifications. Lehavdil, its like calling a Church/mosque a shul because its a “house of worship….”
Why the focus on what the Tzoroh is called? Give it whatever new name you like. The many forms of Cancer and Leukemia R”L have similarties and differences. They’re all serious!
SJSinNYC – thank you for admitting that you may be wrong. Most boys I know can date & even get married at 22.5. Perhaps you have met immature Yeshivish boys. The ones I’ve met seem to be exactly the same at 22.5 as they are at 23.
gavra_at_work – you seem to have an agenda about rich and support. While that’s a very valid discussion, the issue here is regarding getting more boys into the Shidduch market. By sidetracking – we will lose focus.
Bottom line – cut out 6 months of boys learning in E”Y & we will see more marriages and less singles.
Please don’t all attack me for this, but shouldn’t a bochur speak with a rebbe he is close with (or a competent rov who will give him the time to explain his personal situation) and determine when the correct time to start going out / sitting in will be?
With out getting into too many details, when my husband was around 22.5 he spoke with his rebbe who told him to wait at least another year before starting to date. (one of the reasons was “If you’re learning good now, why jeopardize it by starting the next stage of your life?”) Yeah I had to wait longer for him but it was definitely worth it.
My father told me before I started dating that every person (both male and female) should only take into account what’s best for them and not what others say will solve the crisis.
As far as the comment about revoking the cherem, it won’t only solve the singles crisis, it will also ease the stress on fathers-in-law. LOL
Thanks SJS, I’ve tried once before to introduce AZ to the wonderful world of quotation marks (you might not have liked “agunos” for all the very valid reasons you mentioned, but it wouldn’t have been as horrifying and distasteful).
Question: why aren’t we trying to scare the boys into delaying marriage by making them responsible for parnasa, and maturing? I know what Pirkei Avos says, but we don’t follow the rest of that mishna.
And back to the aguna business: this is just really wonderful for all the older single women out there, especially the ones who feel really good about themselves and their lives, and what they’re accomplishing, despite the very real void in their lives that they are quite aware of. Would we ever do this to childless couples, to call them something so horrific? Seems to me that I remember Penina doing that to Chana and it kinda backfired. (OK, I’m sure AZ would never do that to someone’s face, very imperfect analogy, still….)
Lkwdfellow, I’m with GAW re the support. This is a major problem. We of the last generation were not supported, or not to this degree. I refuse to believe that we have a higher chashivus haTorah than earlier doros (think of that famous story with Rav Yaakov and yeridos hadoros).
A lot of people want a lot of things…..do we all get what we want…do we learn to live without everything we want….that’s one of life’s main challenges.
Um, did you read what you wrote? That is true the other way around as well. Some older women will not get married because the men married younger women. Its a challenge. Did you even read my point to try to understand it? It doesnt seem like it…
Even if Takanas are effective to some degree, then goals were accomplished. Imagine how Simchas would look with no Takanas.
No, the goal was not accomplished. I have been to many lavish, ridiculous affairs where gedolim attended. Why? Because the takanas just reinforced that the rich can get away these things because the rabbonim tolerate it. Which is the same way the shidduch system is going to go – its going to become even MORE elitist than it already is. Try thinking about this before you answer, and you may understand my point better.
Why the focus on what the Tzoroh is called? Give it whatever new name you like. The many forms of Cancer and Leukemia R”L have similarties and differences. They’re all serious!
I wasn’t the one who starting labeling single older women. Its an important distinction. An agunah is not married and not single. Its a terrible afliction and much worse than being an older, single woman. I don’t need to label the issue of having a gluttony of older single women, but its a slap in the face to the poor suffering agunahs to call a woman who CAN HALACHICALLY GET MARRIED an agunah. It shows a lack of respect to their poor plight.
Oomis, I’m with you 100% on the “best” thing. We once were hosting guests for Shabbos for a Bar Mitzvah of our neighbors. Friday night, we were sitting around talking to the guests while the men were in shul. The woman was telling us about her son and at some point (very seriously) told us he was “the best boy in Lakewood.” I have to say its a miracle we didn’t all burst out laughing. It was very hard.
lkwdfellow – I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. I was just talking about the anecdotal evidence that I’ve seen. I wasn’t quoting it as Toras Moshe M’Sinai 🙂
tzippi – I agree with you that it’s a HUGE issue. But we can’t lose focus. This is a different thread. We are dealing with getting boys to date younger.
If you want to start a new thread about support – you can. But, if you want to see less single girls – let’s focus on how to get the boys to date younger.
Bottom line – cut out 6 months of boys learning in E”Y & we will see more marriages and less singles.
SJSinNYC:
Re: Agunos
We ALL!!!!! agree that the plight Agunos suffer is the worst of the worst.
Unfortunately, to my knowledge, there is no Hebrew term for Single girls who have no one to marry. Feel free to make up a name if the comparison sickens you so, and let everyone know for the future. Until then, I guess we’ll have to use the name of a somewhat similarly disadvantaged group of women.
As far as the other two points you made, I’m sure there are fellow coffee-roommates who will agree with none, all or some of the points we’ve each made.
The goal is to ease heartache. Zehu!
AZ you have some chutzpa pulling bochrim out of Eretz Yisroel! Look at what R’ Elchonon, R’ Ahron Kotler and countless other gedolim write about Toras Eretz Yisroel.
You have some chutzpa making a blanket statement about the torah of thousands of people because of the few people you spoke with. And yes, I have spoken with Roshei Yeshivos (ones with Emes Daas Torah) and they do NOT want people to lose out on Torah.
Ben Azai went as far as to not get married because he knew it would adversely affect his learning. You want to adversely affect learning in the name of a shidduch.
Machlokes AZ and Ben Azai, I wonder who we should choose to learn from?
lkwdfellow: Exactly my point. We can get plenty of boys in early (19 & 20), since they will be supported anyway. Without the concept of “life support”, the ballgame becomes completely different, with large incentives to marry older girls.
Dr. Pepper: If there is a solution supported by the Gedolim, then the Rabbaim will follow. The point you bring in (don’t get married, you’re learning) is a large Machlokes Amoraim (Keddushin 1st Perek), followed by a large Machlokes Rishonim what they meant. The topic is not simple at all, but with support, most (if not all) of the reasons to push off getting married brought in the Rishonim fall off.
SJS: “Because the takanas just reinforced that the rich can get away these things because the rabbonim tolerate it.”
Judaism 101: It’s very much part of who we are today. Very well said and a point that we always need to keep in mind. THERE IS NO “ENFORCEMENT” POSSIBLE.
proud tatty – no one is saying to stop Bochurim from learning in E”Y. All AZ is suggesting is to have the boys come back earlier. But, they can go earlier. There’s no reason why a Bochur can’t go to E”Y at 20 & stay for two years. So, I think you are missing the point.
You say that you have spoken with Roshei Yeshivos (ones with Emes Daas Torah). So, can I ask you – what was their solution to help the thousands of single girls?
Bottom line – send boys to E”Y younger & bring them back 6 earlier from E”Y & we will see more marriages and less singles.
If they are coming back earlier, they you are in fact stopping them from learning that extra time. Don’t sugar coat getting people to stop learning in Eretz Yisroel.
And, no, there gedolim don’t by the “there are more girls” argument. It is nice that AZ lives on a secluded Island, the rest of us are in reality.
proud tatty:
1: send them back to EY.
2: Depend “who is a Gadol”. I hear Rav Kalman is very much into the “age gap” argument.
PT: “And, no, there gedolim don’t by the “there are more girls” argument”
No claims there are more girls in the world. Simply more girls on shidduch island, because there ARE more 19 year old girls than 22 year old boys. Without getting into specific names I’ll put one out who I think we will all agree on. Rav Shteinman Shlita is very well aware of the gravity of the situation and clearly understands the dynamics of the age gap and how that is causing the problem.
He reffered to the shidduch situation as “one of the greatest tzaros facing klal yisroe:
I’m not sure which gadol you have spoken to that was explained the facts and still disagreed. kind of hared to believe since the two facts are obvious
1. Population growth
2. girls start dating at 19 boys at 22
As one roshe Yeshiva recently commented to me. It’s NOT rocket science.
Boys that are learning really well (like Ben Azai) in EY kol hakavod stay. What can be changed is the style that EVERYONE stays for the same amount of time even though MANY aren’t being productiove and are just doing what everyone is doing.
To the oilam: If I gave every girls a million dollar dowry, or better yet if I had a magic buttono and took finances out of the shidduch equation we would not accomplish one iota vis a vis the crisis.
The Reason?
If we have 100 girls on the island and 80 boys, there is no way that more than 80 girls can get married. I for one don’t care it the leftover girls are rich, pretty, yichus, etc. or Not. We need to make the difficult decisions that will enable all the girls to have a chance to get married.
It is true that subjective factors play a role in determining WHICH girls have a better chance at geting married. NOT how many. Therefor to address that issue is MISSING the point.
squeak:
Of course age is not the only reason, but if we could reduce the problem by 5% (conservatively) wouldn’t that be a good thing?
I harp on the money because I feel that is ane of the main issues, but we won’t solve that one anytime soon.
AZ: If the girls over 23 had a million dollar dowry (unconditional) it would help, without question. Not in all cases, but in many.
Suggestion #2:
Don’t rush to redd shidduchim to fresh from sem girls. I have no problem if the girls and their parents try their utmost to get married. They could and should without worrying about the greater problem. “chayecha kodeim”.
BUT, the rest of us should NOT be helping them. We should be helping the girls who need it more (21-24).
What right does an outsider (typical shadchan who is not an immediate familey heter and therefore has no heter of “mibisarcha lo tisalem”) have to go redd a shidduch to a 19 yr old girl when the shidduch could just as well been redd to a 22 yr old?
Would you give tzedaka to a less needy person when a more needy person needs it at the same time?
GAW: Not if all the 19 year old girls had the same million dollar dowry. Certainly if the 23 yr olds had the cash and not the 19 yr olds perhaps it would make them more desirable (pathetic but maybe true).
However this is all irrelevant since it’s not happening anytime soon.
Let’s focus on practical implementable reasonable solutions
Who are you to be the judge of who stays and who goes? or the judge of who should stay and who should go.
Figures someone with so little value towards learning undertaking such a project. sad actually
But AZ, does Rav Shteinman have specific steps to take? In chutz l’aretz as well as E”Y?
I would need a very well defined, united list of gedolim. Now you may say that many people went on record supporting the work of NASI. Fine. That’s very different from proposing sending the younger girls to the freezer. (Yeah, we’ve discussed this. I still maintain we’re sending the girls to the freezer.)
Perhaps all us coffee-roommates should approach our individual Rabbonim and see who is on which side of the issue and how to proceed or not to. I think we’d all be in for a major surprise. We’re all betting that our Rabbonim will be on our side of the issue, because it’s the opinion that makes sense to us. None of us know that for certain. Perhaps it’s time to find out!
I’d love to hear R’ Paysach Krohn’s take on this issue. Also, Rav Matisyahu Solomon’s, and all the Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva. Rav Shmuel and others….
Is anyone here ready to ask them and to report back?
The problem with the mbsarcha al tisalam argument is that we’re not dealing with tzedaka. We’re dealing with setting two people up to build a bayis neeman beYisrael. And if something in a shadchan’s mind clicks, and it’s outside the narrow age limits, what’s s/he to do?
Also, it’s all well and good to quote a certain gadol that the problem exists. I have yet to see a gadol come out and give clear guidelines, other than joining a NASI endorsement list.
lkwd fellow: Bottom line – send boys to E”Y younger & bring them back 6 earlier from E”Y & we will see more DIVORCES.
A 5% reduction in single girls at the expense of an increase in the divorce rate is not a net gain.
If girls only start dating 2 years of working or college after seminary they will likely have very different concepts of what they expect from a spouse, for better or for worse. This could cause a seismic change in our society and should not be undertaken lightly.
I completely agree with squeak, proud tatty, and the others of like-mind on this issue!
PM – please provide some data or statistics to prove that the divorce rate is higher amongst couples in which the boys got married at 22.5 as opposed to 23. Otherwise, don’t make up stories….
squeak – no, the difference between you & AZ and myself is our familiarity with the shidduch scene. I think that you are l’shaim shomayim, I just think that you lack the facts.
re:”There is a trade-off between implementing a program and its societal cost. In this case, the cost is manipulating every person between the ages of 19 and 25. Heavy price”.
squeak, we’ve been paying a “heavy price” for doing Mitzvos, and following our leaders, which often creates discomfort, since “Naaseh V’ Nishma”. We chose to. That’s why we’re the chosen people.
Our opinions in the CR are offered here for fun. We don’t decide. When Rabbonim decide on the issue, then we’ll know how to proceed.
I am not getting this. why should we say that a girl is “old/undesirable” when she is 23, mature and has a REAL job, while a guy is too young at 22.5 (as some said before)? I have no problem with men learning in kollel for shana rishona so they can come back earlier from Beis Medresh/E”Y. is 1/2 a year in B”M vs kollel going to make such a huge difference in how firmly grounded they are? if the boys are not firmly grounded by age 22, then we have a serious problem. what was elementary, middle, and high school all about? and then 4 years in B”M (18-22)! maybe it isnt the boys fault- maybe our whole chinuch (at school and home) is in trouble! what arent they fully grounded in?
PT: “Who are you to be the judge of who stays and who goes? or the judge of who should stay and who should go.”
I fail to see how advocating that boys should make a decision based on what is best for their learning and not based on doing it because everyone is doing it. Lack appreciation for learning.
For the record I have been in a Yeshivis style kollel for over 10 yrs and everything that I have posted here has been discussed previously numerous times with a well recognized Rosh Yeshvia.
AZOI.IS: My time in the CR is certainly NOT for fun. I have a life. The sole purpose of the time spent here (at least for me) is to further the awareness of the devastating situation (and you have been very helpful to that end)and to open up peoples minds to the viable practicle albeit not so comfortable solutions.
Re: speaking to Roshei Yeshiva: I have personnaly spoken to Rav Shmuel Berenbaum Zatal, ybcl”c Rav Shteinman (through his chavrusa numerous times). Rav Matisyahu Solomon, The Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva, The Noveminsker Rebbe, and many others. I wouldn’t be wasting my time and energy if I didn’t have such strong backing.
AZ- Power to you! Please accept my honest apology. I had no idea how serious your involvement is with this dilemma. May you have much Hatzlacha in this and all your endeavors. Please keep us posted and let those who agree with you know how we can help further this noble cause.
squeak – it’s no fantasy. Do your research – there’s a problem going on that’s huge. I’m offering a solution that you think isn’t going to work. You are entitled to your opinion. But, in a time of Sakana, don’t play defense…..
lkwd: As a Rav I can tell you we are in the middle of a growing Shalom Bayis crisis, caused in no small part by lack of maturity in our young married couples. It is simple logic that one who is too immature at 23 is certainly less mature at 22.5.
AZ: I am happy to hear you have had the opportunity in to come in contact with many Gedolim. Did you discuss your shiduch initiative with any of them? Did they agree? If yes, why haven’t we heard these Gedolim taking the initiative on these suggestions. The Lkwd RYs could easily encourage bachurim to go out younger if they chose, for example by waiving the “freezer rule” to one who goes out with an older girl.
AZ: you’ll be glad to hear that i just redd a shidduch to a 24 year old boy & a 24 year old girl! when they both agreed i was right a way thinking, that AZ will be proud! i’ll posted if anything happens with these two!
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