Touro or YU?

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  • #837025

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: There is a board. Who is on the board, I don’t know.

    #837026

    datura77
    Member

    “In the real world, where you got the degree just doesn’t matter. People care about your experience, intelligence, knowledge, flexibility, confidence, and reliability; even going to Harvard isn’t going to make up for a lack in those areas.”

    I’ve been hiring manager in IT (software engineering) for many years and can state that recruiting manager really doesn’t care from where the degree is from – the experience, intelligence and knowledge is what counts. I’ve seen folks with PhD from leading universities that couldn’t answer the basic questions.

    #837027

    Jothar
    Member

    Datura, do you have openings currently? I might know some good candidates. Do not post up any private info, but you know that already as an IT person.

    #837030

    datura77
    Member

    We have a few openings, both in software development and other departments. Not sure how we can communicate if I can’t publish my e-mail here.

    #837031

    Jothar
    Member

    Datura77, click the “contact us” link at the top, and the mods will forward it to me. Just say pls forward to jothar. Thx.

    #837032

    Jothar
    Member

    The more I read about the Beacon issue, the more I realize that YU can NOT be compared to Touro in any way, shape or form. The Beacon is a beacon declaring “tamei tamei” for YU and Stern.

    #837033

    lolkatz
    Member

    What should YU have done that they didn’t do?

    #837034

    Sam2
    Participant

    Jothar: The Beacon thing says nothing about YU. Everyone knows that there are non-frum people at YU. What does someone posting that in a story add that we didn’t already know?

    #837035

    Jothar
    Member

    Sam2, so you are telling me that YU is NOT a frum college, and comparing Touro to YU is like comparing Touro to NYU, correct? So you are agreeing that a frum person should go to Touro, correct?

    #837036

    stamamen
    Member

    jothars right. The beacon thing is another major stain on yu. Something like that i s inconceivable to have occurred at a real yeshiva. You think mir or torah vdaas student publication would ever publish something so low? They would never even get something so audicious submitted to them!!

    #837037

    Sam2
    Participant

    Jothar: We all knew that there are not-frum people in YU and Stern. The vast majority is still frum. I don’t see the issue here. If there was someone not frum in the Mir who found a blog to publish that he wasn’t frum, would that be a stain on the Mir or would that be someone who we already knew wasn’t frum just admitting it? I don’t see why this should change any perceptions about YU.

    #837038

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The Beacon thing says nothing about YU. Everyone knows that there are non-frum people at YU. What does someone posting that in a story add that we didn’t already know?

    Because the author identified herself as Modern Orthodox.

    #837039

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: And we also knew that there are plenty of non-Shomer Halacha people who identify themselves as “Modern Orthodox”. What does this add?

    I saw someone point out that this whole thing should look good for YU. There was a huge outcry from a ton of students against the piece. That should say more about the YU student body than what one Overes Aveirah did and wrote.

    #837040

    yid.period
    Member

    For the record, Touro isnt a “Jewish” college. The “University” in YU isn’t a religious college, but it IS Jewish. In any case, the Yeshiva is not to be confused with the University though.

    #837041

    Datura – thanks for quoting me. I felt that point had been lost in this thread.

    #837042

    Health
    Participant

    Jothar – +10 🙂

    #837043

    Health
    Participant

    yid.period -“For the record, Touro isnt a “Jewish” college”

    But the school is run acc. to Halacha. Can YU claim the same thing??? I highly doubt it!

    #837044

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: What does a “school being run according to Halacha” mean?

    #837045

    Jothar
    Member

    The Beacon has run other columns in the past trying to whitewash ignoring blatant halachos of yoreh deah and even ha’ezer, and reading much of the secular Jewish press, it seems it accurately reflects YU more than they care to admit. Add this to the mishkav zachar open support group and YU is not the place for a frum Jew. So it’s either Touro or Naaleh. Although at $180 per credit hour, Naaleh seems the wave of the future.

    #837048

    yid.period
    Member

    This isn’t a conversation if one side keeps ignoring the other’s points without addressing them.

    Jothar – which “Mishkav Zachor Support Group” are you referring to? (beware: I’m testing your ignorance)

    And again, the Beacon is run completely by a small group of students – not directly by the administration, yeshiva, or popular opinion of the students.

    Health – what does “run acc. to halacha” mean? The Yeshiva and University are certainly; but the students do not have their personal lives controlled. You may ask, so how could this article have been printed? There is no direct oversight, but once it was printed, it was taken down until the Beacon severed all ties with YU. (At request of the Student body – who didn’t want that article there – for the record)

    #837049

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: What does a “school being run according to Halacha” mean?”

    It means simply they don’t allow things in their school to occur which is Keneged Halacha. As opposed to YU. Look at Jothar’s post for examples of these.

    Defending YU with – e/o knows there are Frei Yidden that go there isn’t an excuse why the school lets them do what they want!

    #837050

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: The school doesn’t run the student lives. They do that in accordance with their Poskim. I still don’t see the problem. They allow non-Frum students in and don’t force them to be frum. If that Passuls an institution to you, fine. But I don’t think that makes the institution not Frum.

    #837051

    Jothar
    Member

    I am referring to the get-together, a week after mishpacha published their article on Rav Hershel Shachter, with Rabbi Yossi Blau, Dr. Pelcowitz, and a few openly mishkav zachar students getting cheered on by the gathering. I am aware that many YU rabbonim promptly denounced it. But this doesn’t happen in Touro.

    #837052

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Would Mir accept a Frei Student who espouses no desire to be frum, but wants a jewish education

    #837053

    Sam2
    Participant

    Jothar: Learn what actually happened at that event. You are giving a gross misrepresentation of what happened which is terrible Motzi Shem Ra against Rabbi Blau, Dr. Pelcovitz, and the institution itself.

    #837054

    yid.period
    Member

    ^ what Sam2 said.

    And again just for the record – MANY of the non religious students who are accepted to YU become more frum and involved with yiddishkeit after being there. The fact they have all types of Jews under one roof is a strength and not a weakness… its called ACHUS. If we only keep within the people who talk, dress and think like us, but cry about all the problems facing am yisroel, not much will get done.

    #837055

    Jothar
    Member

    I read a slew of articles on it from various news sources. My take on it is the same as Rabbi Dr. Richard Joel, Rabbi Yonah Reiss, and Rabbi Mayer Twersky, so clearly I understood it correctly. And one of the toeva speakers said it himself:

    This person founded a toevah organization, and referred to the support for his toevah activities he received at this event. Hoda’as baal din keme’ah eidim.

    And here is the message from the President and Menahel of RIETS:

    In light of recent events, we want to reiterate the absolute prohibition of [mishkav zachar] relationships according to Jewish law. Of course, as was indicated in a message issued by our Roshei Yeshiva, those struggling with this issue require due sensitivity, although such sensitivity cannot be allowed to erode the Torah’s unequivocal condemnation of such activity. Sadly, as we have discovered, public gatherings addressing these issues, even when well-intentioned, could send the wrong message and obscure the Torah’s requirements of halakhic behavior and due modesty. Yeshiva has an obligation to ensure that its activities and events promote the primacy and sacredness of Torah in our lives and communities. We are committed to providing halakhic guidance and sensitivity with respect to all challenges confronted by individuals within our broader community, including [mishkav zachar] inclinations, in a discreet, dignified and appropriate fashion.

    President Richard M. Joel Menahel Rabbi Yona Reiss

    Swiper from another blog which swiped it from the Jewish star:

    [desecration of G-d’s name]

    [an abomination]
    [mishkav zachar]

    #837056

    Sam2
    Participant

    That letter was posted around YU before the event. And none of the speakers were supposed to be practicing. They were supposed to be people who were open about being attracted to men but still wanted to live a Frum, Halacha-centered life. One of the speakers, unfortunately, was not. I was personally told by one of the organizers that had they known this beforehand, he would not have been allowed to speak. The goal was not to raise awareness or C”V acceptance of those who practice Mishkav Zachor. It was supposed to raise awareness of the terrible troubles that people who are attracted to men have with being involved in the Frum community. Read their stories if you want and see what the point of that event was. The whole thing is online, in text and in video, I believe. Read it and realize what the event was about. It was never C”V intended to gain support or sympathy for those who practice Mishkav Zachor.

    #837057

    Health
    Participant

    yid.period & Sam2 –

    “Health – what does “run acc. to halacha” mean? The Yeshiva and University are certainly;”

    “Health: The school doesn’t run the student lives. They do that in accordance with their Poskim. I still don’t see the problem.”

    The two of you keep posting the same Naarishkeit over & over.

    Keep dreaming that the school is run acc. to Halacha. I just posted to you on the previous page proving that it’s Not! Here is my quote -to referesh your memory:

    “values secular culture & tolerance of different opinions.

    And we see what that means later on. He tolerates conservative & reform conversions. This means he either holds of their conversions -not acc. to Halacha or he finds no problem calling these conversions Jews so innocent/ignorant (Am Haarazim) will possibly end up marrying them, even though they are Goyim.”

    There has been No public refutation of the past CEO’s words -so I can only assume that e/o there including the Rabbis have no objection because Shtika K’hodoah! That statement is 100% against Halacha so therefore the Yeshiva/school is also run against Halacha! Yea -that’s right – the CEO represents the school!

    #837058

    yid.period
    Member

    Jothar – exactly as everything you quoted says – YU Roshei Yeshiva were against what the event became, and should not have happened as it did. But “support” those people felt was intended to be that people will be sensitive to their issues – never to legitimize practicing any aveiros.

    As R Twersky said, the event was a chillul Hashem and showed YU in a negative light because of the way it was interpreted by people who saw what the event as it happened – not b/c all of YU endorsed it. (He was not saying it accurately reflects the YU community) But this again is saying that YU was against it, and in no way shape or form endorses michkav zachar or supports those who have those urges, other than in a counseling context.

    Counseling those with issues sounds like a positive thing to me.

    And now that you have read everything you posted you should be the first NOT to lump YU all together characterized by that event, since you read about all the aftermath there distancing those events from the rest of YU.

    And also, that is quite different than the “mishkav zachor support group” you referred to originally.

    #837059

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: I will ask someone. There is absolutely no way on Earth that Rabbi Lamm has ever said that Conservative or Reform conversions are acceptable. I will look into that.

    #837060

    yid.period
    Member

    Health – I assume you have learned some gemara over the course of your life. Can you really say, with certainty, that no RY has come out against what you are quoting R Lamm as saying !? (I say “you assume” because what you just typed is definitely not a direct quote, and you’ll have to forgive me for taking your interpretation with a grain of salt).

    Eidim can only testify that one did not pay back a loan in their presence, not that it was never paid back at all! IF what you are saying is close to the truth, you still cant throw everybody associated with YU into that group…

    and btw, in any case, how much is R lamm involved with YU these days? I didn’t go to YU in previous years, all I know is what it’s like now – and so I can say it IS run according to halacha – and you haven’t brought any evidence to the contrary either.

    #837061

    Jothar
    Member

    This event was what I was referring to, not the club that was inside some YU affiliate building years ago. This was YU itself, putting out a public show of support for toevah. And while many of its roshei yeshiva denounced it, this would never happen at Touro.

    But as everyone is admitting, Rabbi blau was snookered into doing this conference that legitimized toeva in the Jewish community. the Beacon legitimized negiah and worse in the MO community. While the frummer elements in YU denounce these things, it’s hard to go to YU and NOT be affected by other parts of YU. Touro doesn’t have these events.

    #837062

    Health
    Participant

    Jothar – Way to go Jo!

    #837063

    Sam2
    Participant

    Jothar: More Motzi Shem Ra on Rabbi Blau. He knew exactly what he was doing. He wanted people who are attracted to men to have the option of living in a Frum community (as long as they are following Halacha, obviously), something which is very hard for them now. The event in no way whatsoever supported Mishkav Zachor. It didn’t. The lies being spread around as to what happened at that event are disgusting and blatant Motzi Shem Ra. You’d be shocked as to what I heard happened at that event from some anti-YU people (I know exactly what happened at the event, every single detail).

    The Beacon leigitmizes nothing. It in now way represents any Shmiras Halacha or the opinions of even close to a majority of YU students.

    #837064

    Health
    Participant

    yid.period – “Health – I assume you have learned some gemara over the course of your life.”

    Don’t assume anything. Maybe I’m an Am Haaretz like you.

    “Can you really say, with certainty, that no RY has come out against what you are quoting R Lamm as saying !?”

    Since you didn’t read My post -I’ll quote it for you:

    “so I can only assume that e/o there including the Rabbis have no objection because Shtika K’hodoah!”

    I heard No Public objection!

    “(I say “you assume” because what you just typed is definitely not a direct quote, and you’ll have to forgive me for taking your interpretation with a grain of salt).”

    Don’t be so lazy and go to the pervious page and see what he says!

    As far as I can see from his quote -there are no other possible interpretations. If you can squeeze one in – by all means let e/o know!

    “Eidim can only testify that one did not pay back a loan in their presence, not that it was never paid back at all! IF what you are saying is close to the truth, you still cant throw everybody associated with YU into that group…”

    Again you didn’t read my post -I’ll quote it again for you:

    “Yea -that’s right – the CEO represents the school!”

    “and btw, in any case, how much is R lamm involved with YU these days? I didn’t go to YU in previous years, all I know is what it’s like now – and so I can say it IS run according to halacha – and you haven’t brought any evidence to the contrary either.”

    Well how can you say this? Did you ask the current President and the board that runs the school what they hold regarding Reform & Conservative conversions? If you didn’t ask, then you have to assume they hold the same as Rabbi? Dr. Lamm!

    It’s really getting fun having these convos with you yid.period!

    And that is an exclamation mark, not a period. (period)

    #837065

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: I guarantee that if you would ask Richard Joel what he thinks of Conservative conversions he would say that he is neither a Posek nor Rosh Yeshivah and would leave that decision up to R’ Schachter.

    #837066

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2- “Health: I guarantee that if you would ask Richard Joel what he thinks of Conservative conversions he would say that he is neither a Posek nor Rosh Yeshivah and would leave that decision up to R’ Schachter.”

    My previous post was not to make assumptions about R. Joel, but to make a point to yid.period that he can’t make such an assumption without asking the parties beforehand.

    I don’t get you. You claim you aren’t a student of YU, but you ferociously defend them. Are you related to people who work there?

    #837067

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: It’s not possible that I just don’t like mass Lashon Hara and Motzi Shem Ra about Frum Jews? I have to be personally involved to defend something?

    #837068

    yid.period
    Member

    Health – okay, ill try to do this slowly. Do me a favor though, read what I write and try to think about what the words mean before you shout obscenities back.

    a) I’m an am haaretz? Why must you resort to personal attacks? That is not the way a ben torah should act at all, let alone having a discussion with a fellow Jew.

    b) In the first portion of your post, you tell me “don’t assume anything” yet you proceed to quote where you yourself said

    “so I can only assume that e/o there including the Rabbis have no objection because Shtika K’hodoah!

    I heard No Public objection!”

    I have a hard time believing you were following the story closely enough, reading reliable enough sources to hear anything close to resembling balanced and fair reporting, and if you were, I’m sure you would have heard their objections.

    c) again, calling me lazy – that sounds quite immature of you. The point is you are biased in your “interpretation” (loosely speaking) of what was said.

    d) let’s get one thing straight – there is no “CEO” of YU. It is a huge organization, with many distinct parts. NOBODY speaks for everybody here. You havent mentioned the President of Touro once in your support of attending there; he is for most purposes, irrelevant to students at the institution; same goes for YU.

    e) What the current President and Board believe with regard to ANYTHING is irrelevant to this discussion as long as any frei beliefs they hold do not make there way into any policy of the institution, of which there have been none. So in being dan lekaf zechus of them and judging them based on their past performance, I would say they do not hold of any frei ideals, and you insinuating the possibility otherwise is uncalled for and offensive.

    One of the things they like to teach in YU is how to have an intelligent and balanced discussion; you would gain a lot attending for a semester or two.

    I can honestly say I really do not like having these “conversations” with you because there isn’t much of a conversation at all in my opinion, let alone the above mentioned intelligent conversation or debate that I have become accustomed to expecting when speaking with other people.

    #837069

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: It’s not possible that I just don’t like mass Lashon Hara and Motzi Shem Ra about Frum Jews? I have to be personally involved to defend something?”

    Yes, that’s what I was doing for Touro, but I was a student there.

    If you really only cared about Motzay Shem Ra why was your first post here this?

    “Health: Regardless of how you see it, Rav Schachter (and Rav Soloveitchik before him) represents YU’s Hashkafa much more than Rabbi Lamm ever did.”

    You didn’t make not one post decrying the Motzay Shem Ra/ LH on Touro. Now you expect me to buy your line about -“It’s not possible that I just don’t like mass Lashon Hara and Motzi Shem Ra about Frum Jews? I have to be personally involved to defend something?”

    Really????

    #837070

    passfan
    Member

    Wasn’t (or isn’t) R. Lamm an official rosh yeshiva at RIETS? And isn’t Rav Schachter’s position as RY no greater than any of the other RY’s of RIETS.

    Also, shouldn’t we differentiate between RIETS, which is a yeshiva, and YU, which is a secular university?

    #837071

    Health
    Participant

    yid.period -“a) I’m an am haaretz? Why must you resort to personal attacks? That is not the way a ben torah should act at all, let alone having a discussion with a fellow Jew.”

    Put it simply -if you dish it out -you will get it back!

    “Health – I assume you have learned some gemara over the course of your life.”

    An extremely sarcastic line. Do You think this is the way a Ben Torah should write?

    “b) In the first portion of your post, you tell me “don’t assume anything” yet you proceed to quote where you yourself said

    “so I can only assume that e/o there including the Rabbis have no objection because Shtika K’hodoah!

    I heard No Public objection!”

    I have a hard time believing you were following the story closely enough, reading reliable enough sources to hear anything close to resembling balanced and fair reporting, and if you were, I’m sure you would have heard their objections.”

    Just look at the newspaper article in the previous page. I didn’t see any rebuttal in any newspaper. If there is any -you can post IT here!

    “c) again, calling me lazy – that sounds quite immature of you. The point is you are biased in your “interpretation” (loosely speaking) of what was said.”

    There was no “interpretation” like you write. The quote is there in black and white. If you have any point of where I misinterpreted -feel free to post it on this page. Don’t talk in abstract, if you have a point -post it.

    “d) let’s get one thing straight – there is no “CEO” of YU. It is a huge organization, with many distinct parts. NOBODY speaks for everybody here.”

    Wrong the board and CEO do represent your Yeshiva/ University -whatever it is, no matter what you say!

    “You havent mentioned the President of Touro once in your support of attending there; he is for most purposes, irrelevant to students at the institution; same goes for YU.”

    Rabbi, Dr. Lander A’H, is the one whom instituted all policies in any Touro school. These are all acc. to Halacha. The school carries on his tradition to this day.

    “e) What the current President and Board believe with regard to ANYTHING is irrelevant to this discussion as long as any frei beliefs they hold do not make there way into any policy of the institution, of which there have been none.”

    Keep talking into yourself that their Frei beliefs are irrevelant and have no influence on the school!

    “So in being dan lekaf zechus of them and judging them based on their past performance, I would say they do not hold of any frei ideals, and you insinuating the possibility otherwise is uncalled for and offensive.”

    If you can be Mevaer what they hold, you can’t just be Someach on Dan L’caf Zecus. (If you don’t understand this last line ask SAM2.)

    “One of the things they like to teach in YU is how to have an intelligent and balanced discussion; you would gain a lot attending for a semester or two.”

    Chas V’sholom!!!!!

    “I can honestly say I really do not like having these “conversations” with you because there isn’t much of a conversation at all in my opinion, let alone the above mentioned intelligent conversation or debate that I have become accustomed to expecting when speaking with other people.”

    So if you don’t like posting to me -whom is forcing you to?!?!?!?

    #837072

    I haven’t posted in a while on this thread, so I may have some comments bottled up inside of me.

    1. Health: Why can’t you attempt to be more civil?

    2. Health: Please stop lying.

    A. As far as I can recall, nobody here said any motzi shem ra about Touro. The fact that you find something mildly offensive doesn’t mean that it’s motzi shem ra. I know you accused various posters – I was first – of spouting motzi shem ra, but the accuracy of your statements is not commensurate with the amounts of times you say them.

    B. You say “Rabbi, Dr. Lander A’H, is the one whom instituted all policies in any Touro school. These are all acc. to Halacha. The school carries on his tradition to this day.”

    First, this is blatantly false. Second, as he is no longer president, I’m not sure why he’s relevant. You say that “[t]he school carries on his tradition to this day”, but I’m not sure what that means.

    #837073

    Health
    Participant

    Shvartza Wolf -“I haven’t posted in a while on this thread, so I may have some comments bottled up inside of me.”

    So this is a release of tension? I understand. Are you feeling better now?

    “1. Health: Why can’t you attempt to be more civil?

    2. Health: Please stop lying.”

    What hypocrisy! You’re asking me to be more civil and the very next second you call me a liar without bringing a shred of proof!

    What – only I have to be civil, not you?

    “A. As far as I can recall, nobody here said any motzi shem ra about Touro. The fact that you find something mildly offensive doesn’t mean that it’s motzi shem ra. I know you accused various posters – I was first – of spouting motzi shem ra, but the accuracy of your statements is not commensurate with the amounts of times you say them.”

    Yes, it is. Blaming the school on the action of a few employees who sold grades and/or degrees is Pure outright Motzay Shem Ra!

    “B. You say “Rabbi, Dr. Lander A’H, is the one whom instituted all policies in any Touro school. These are all acc. to Halacha. The school carries on his tradition to this day.”

    First, this is blatantly false.”

    Again saying something is Not true without a shred of proof!

    “Second, as he is no longer president, I’m not sure why he’s relevant. You say that “[t]he school carries on his tradition to this day”, but I’m not sure what that means.”

    If you had any civilty, you’d first ask to explain; but what you do is first call me a liar and then say – explain what you meant.

    The school follows all policies he instituted even though he isn’t alive.

    #837074

    Nechomah
    Participant

    Sam2: I have a problem with your comment: “I guarantee that if you would ask Richard Joel what he thinks of Conservative conversions he would say that he is neither a Posek nor Rosh Yeshivah and would leave that decision up to R’ Schachter.”

    What does this mean? R’ Schachter gives the psak as far as how YU holds on these issues, but it could be that he personally holds differently? That’s how I could interpret this statement.

    I feel that there is a right and a wrong, either conservative conversions are OK or they’re not, it’s not a gray area, obviously I hold that the person is not halachically Jewish, but maybe I’m wrong on this issue, but this is what I believe the gedolim poskin in this issue. So what would be the difference if he came out himself and said this himself – YU and I are of the same mind and a person must convert to Judaism according to the laws prescribed in halacha. It shmecks of a double talk to me, even though you didn’t say it that way. This is my honest interpretation of such political speech.

    #837075

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Shvartza Wolf, please explain your previous remarks where you wrote:

    “[Responding to ‘Health’]:

    B. You say “Rabbi, Dr. Lander A’H, is the one whom instituted all policies in any Touro school. These are all acc. to Halacha. The school carries on his tradition to this day.”

    First, this is blatantly false. Second, as he is no longer president, I’m not sure why he’s relevant. You say that “[t]he school carries on his tradition to this day”, but I’m not sure what that means.

    I have many friends who attended (respectively) both Touro and YU. I never heard of any violations of halacha at Touro. Yet you seem to claim this to be the case when you wrote “blatantly false”. How so? Please explain.

    Also, you write that since Rabbi Dr. Lander Z”L is no longer president that you’re “not sure why he’s relevant” and, at the same time, you admit you’re not sure what “carries on his tradition” means. Might one explain the other?

    His philosophy of allowing a Ben Torah (and also a Bas Melech) to acquire a college education without compromising on his (or her) Torah values seems to continue in Touro despite Rabbi Dr. Lander having passed away. That would make him relevant. And that is probably what it means.

    As for YU/MO:

    The typical line I hear from current YU students, when asked about a given YU/MO affront to our holy Torah, is that the students don’t care for that nonsense and they are instead interested in learning and a quality degree.

    That includes the Catholic Cardinals’ visit, Crosses blazing in the reflected lights, to the Beis Midrash for some good ‘ol bittul Torah (and assorted other issurim that came along for the ride). Or more recently, about the toeivah rally.

    I do believe my acquaintances that they are sincere in that reasoning, and they certainly seem like good Bnei Torah who are kovei ittim, et al. and that they truly do have no interest in these travesties.

    But the latest Beacon story, unlike the Toeivah rally, is, in my opinion, much worse than the toeivah rally and the Cardinals’ visit. As written, it portrays a gross lack of sensitivity to, and Chashivus of, the Torah on the part of both the writer and the editors of that publication. (I don’t mean to judge them personally, CH”V, as they are all likely tonikos shenishbu to a very large extent.) This is unlike the Toeivah rally (and letters by those struggling with this issue) where they claim they were trying to be understanding and caring, working within the Torah’s values, even if they were misguided as Rabbi M. Twersky clearly explained.

    (In truth, other YU papers have written things that are highly inappropriate and convey the same lack of chashivus, but to a far lesser degree, with HaMevaser coming in a fairly competitive second place after the Beacon. Yet people contaminate the sanctity of shuls with Hamevaser editions, Hashem Yiracheim)

    Whatever struggle(s) the author of that article was dealing with, there was no excuse to glorify the experience of violating BiMeizid (and, as written, seemingly BiSimcha, too!) a number of issurim chamurim including one of the “big 3”. Again, no excuse to write it like that. At least in the Toeivah articles, it is written in the context of them wishing they could be like everyone else, etc., how much of a struggle they have, and not how, CH”V, excited they would be to violate issurim chamurim as in the Beacon story. On the other hand, a (valid) point in the Beacon story could have been made by glossing over much of the terrible occurrence and then explaining the experience to have been empty and regrettable after all that, in addition to the aveiros committed.

    In other words, the aveirah/aveiros, terrible as it is/they are, is/are not so much the concern to others, as people do stumble, CH”V, and that’s why Hashem graced us with the gift of Teshuva. So confessing to a student newspaper, while perhaps anyways not appropriate in the final analysis, is not what is shocking. But the writer’s glorification of committing one of (speaking of Cardinals) the 3 “cardinal” aveiros is inexcusable and shocking, even for MO (who proudly ignore their own Rav’s (as in Rav JBS) words that “the greater they can distance themselves from culture the **better** they are for it” and instead whose students proudly proclaim that, for example, it must be muttar to go to a Broadway show because everyone does it and that Kol Isha and other issurim must not apply).

    So it is not so much the halachic concerns that arise. Because those can be avoided (if you care to). But it’s the attitude and hashkafa that holds secular culture to be, not in the running with, or even on par with, but (de facto if not de jure) outright *trumping*, our holy Torah, CH”V and the resultant matir issurim that accompany that belief, denials to the contrary not withstanding. Breathing in that air is poisonous to the soul and is the biggest travesty of that ideology no matter how much learning goes on anywhere.

    (At least Conservative Jewry claims they can make up and discard what they please, and Reform and Reconstructionist do not claim any fidelity to Torah MiSinai. So if they were to engage in such behavior then it would not reflect on their being Jews and would be a simple reflection on the decrepit society and culture they are surrounded with. But regarding one who claims to be anything-orthodox, it most certainly does reflect on their being Jews and this is a terrible chilul Hashem.)

    #837076

    Sam2
    Participant

    Nechomah: No, the point is that President Joel is not someone to turn to with Halachic Shailos (minor or major), acknowledges that fact, and would therefore decline answering (unless he was the most learned available and there was literally no way to ask anyone else) any Halachic Shaila and would cede to the opinion of Rav Schachter or Rav Willig (I do not know who his personal Posek is but if I recall correctly it’s one of the two). It wouldn’t be a political answer. I have seen many times where he has ceded a Shaila to a Rabbi around him. He is learned but does not feel learned enough to give an opinion on anything. It would like asking me or any other random guy a Shaila. I might have an opinion, but that in no way means that it’s worth anything. So why would I give it?

    #837077

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaKatan: I don’t even know where to begin with this. You are taking an article by one Overes Aveirah as an indictment on a whole community. I would hope that someone who knows what Jews have gone through throughout our history would be able to see past that.

    Rav Schachter talks about when the cardinals visit and why and why YU lets them in the Beis Midrash. Before they come, someone always announces in the Beis Medrash that they should be ignored and that learning should continue as normal.

    I cannot answer why Broadway shows are Muttar. I know people have been given Heterim (I also know of several people who bring iPods to listen on during Kol Isha parts), but I do not know why they would be Muttar.

    You seem to have a very strong complaint against a group of people and are not giving a real support for your indictment of a large group of Frum Jews, unless you think that Broadway shows are enough to Passul an entire group.

    #837078

    Health
    Participant

    HaKatan – Skoiach. Very well written!

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