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dunno
Could you at least pay for some of it, like your Diet Coke perhaps?
@dunno-
I’m not saying what I’m doing is right. I explicitly said “there is no right thing” to do in my previous posts.
I agree that someone’s going to be left out and I’m only only choosing not to do it because Shav V’al Taaseh, (meaning when you are unsure of what to do it is better to take no action, than to take an action).
iyhbyu: I didn’t scroll through all the posts now. A few posts up she said this: “As I explained many times, I think it’s chivalrous. You don’t. That’s FINE!”
dunno: YW
1dayatatime
I only get water so nope! But maybe if you prepare for the date as long as I do (including hair, makeup, etc), I’ll consider it.
iyhbyu
Sounds like a good approach. Hatzlacha.
Thanks, you too. and if you (or anyone) think of a better approach; please post it.
@tbt
The only reason I pressed the subject was because of the “right” comment.
dunno
“But maybe if you prepare for the date as long as I do (including hair, makeup, etc), I’ll consider it.”
Are you kidding me?
Cleaning my car: vaccuming, car wash, 45 minutes $20-30
( I don’t exactly have a car wash around the corner from me)
Shaving, showering, getting dressed: 30-45 minutes
making sure my suit and shirt are pressed: money for the cleaners and time to and from the cleaners
Driving to and back from, her house: IF shes from lakewood, Monsey, Pasaic, Over an hour each way, plus gas and tolls
Beat That
How long does it take for hair, makeup, getting dressed? an hour, tops?
So would you pay for MY water?
Shmooze
1dayatatime
An hour?? I wish!!
First to address your points:
Cleaning my car: vaccuming, car wash, 45 minutes $20-30
You vacuum your car for every date? How messy do you keep it otherwise? 🙂
Shaving, showering, getting dressed: 30-45 minutes
We also shower and get dressed. And if you include the time we spend deciding what to wear we would beat you by a long shot. All you have to decide on is your tie.
making sure my suit and shirt are pressed: money for the cleaners and time to and from the cleaners
Same for our clothes.
Driving to and back from, her house: IF shes from lakewood, Monsey, Pasaic, Over an hour each way, plus gas and tolls
Ok, you got me on this one.
How long does it take for hair, makeup, getting dressed? an hour, tops?
I’m assuming you don’t have sisters or you wouldn’t be asking this question. Hair can take an hour alone. If I get it done it’s driving to and from the place plus spending an hour there. Makeup can take 45 minutes but it’s usually less for me. Getting dressed I discussed before.
To conclude:
So would you pay for MY water?
Once you beat me we’ll discuss the water. Although you are offered food and drinks in the house so technically that’s taken care of.
Yeah, but i never eat the food or drink
I have sisters B”H, they just do things quickly
My car is pretty clean, I just like to make the girls feel like royalty
I concede, fine, i’ll pay for your water:)
Shmooze
1 day and dunno
ur back and forth discussion is hilarious. sorry 1 day, but on this issue, i see no way that you are gonna win. unless u need to drive for more than 2 hours to get there, it is well known that it takes girls much longer to get ready for dates. got a good laugh out of the competition, tho.
And finally, please address my curious question (This is my third invocation, and your ignoring it means that you either don’t have a good answer or you are ignoring me which is discourteous 😉 ): What are the top 5 things that you think are important to look for in a guy you are dating? And, once again, be specific please. None of “He should be a mentsch” since that is too broad. If you want to make it 10 things so you have more to work with, that’s fine. “
Either I have not read your posts, or did not realize they were addressed to me, as I don’t recall seeing these questions. I am married, so clearly I am not looking for ANYTHING in anone I am dating. 😉 However, to answer your question (courteously) :
1)kind/ baal chessed/thoughtful
2)learned
3)have simchas hachayim
4)good sense of humor
5)strong love of family/devotion shown to both sides of the family
6)love of children of all ages
7)strong kesher with Rov, but still thinks for himself
8)in the case of a girl for my son, all the above, and also an appreciation for chazzanus
9)clean and put-together, attractive to my child
10) Last, but not least, truly loves and values my child
Next date i’ll drive around for 3 hours even if she lives around the corner:)
Shmooze
1dayatatime
Is it my problem that you don’t eat it? Truth be told, I really don’t need the water. I think it’s ridiculous to spend $8 on it.
But glad you saw the truth and gave in 🙂
Has your husband ever done anything that was discourteous”
Never ONCE in the 34 years I have known him (got engaged 34 years ago on Tu B’shvat), has he EVER been discourteous to ANYONE, least of all, me. Oh, we have gotten angry with each other over the years, but he has never done anything rudely or obnoxiously. I cannot say the same for myself, but I am working on it 😉
As to the example you mentioned about the Middle Eastern belcher – Bochur, we are not Arabs in the Middle East, and in any case, behavior that is acceptable in some place else, does not make it acceptable to others. You are an intelligent person, I can see that. But you are arguing about nonsense right now. The bottom line is that MOST people expect, deserve, and are happy to see others act in ways which are pretty much universally established here as being the right thing to do. If a girl truly does not want you to walk her to her door, she IS acting in a way which most girls (who have not been brainwashed into thinking it is untzniusdig somehow)would find it inconsiderate on the part of the boy. If she fails to say thank you to him, then most guys would probably find her unappreciative. If two people do not act in an accepted minimally considerate manner when they are dating and presumably trying to impress each other, then there is no hope they will do so after marriage. I am not a bigot; I am not arrogant (if you knew me personally, you would know this to be emes). I am however, a strong proponent of derech eretz, and I see it lacking in a spectacular way among the present young generation. I am not pointing a finger of fault at anyone. Just making an observation.
I actually think that even if you did win that paying for things on a date is the most important aspect of chivalry on a date. The guy is responsible for being the breadwinner and that should start from day 1. But yeah I sympathize-paying for parking especially can be a big strain on the wallet.
8 bucks on water?
I usually have water bottles in my car that I bring in with me to the lounge. 24 pack for 8 bucks
“that should start from day 1.”
You mean from 1day?!
shmooze
1dayatatime
Why do I not believe you?
oomis – thank you for finally addressing the points. When you read this post, I would like you to keep in mind that I do walk the girl to the door so I am not defending MYSELF in any way. I am simply trying to figure out why you are so vehement about the issue. 1) I noticed you are a proponent of communication. So again I ask why this issue of walking to the door does not fit your bill of something to be discussed (considering that based on what a significant number of people feel, it may not be appreciated or even appropriate. I know you don’t agree but some people – girls – feel that way). Why do you think that your opinion is the only one worth anything? (This is why I said you sound bigoted). 2) The belch thing was meant as a crude example of something that is accepted by a group of people as common courtesy but quite the opposite by others. I doubt that any marriage is made or broken by the act of someone holding open a door or walking the girl to the door (I am assuming that just about everything else about the guy is good. My attack on your theory was based on the feeling I got that you would say to dump a guy based on this act alone. If I was in error, I apologize). 3) If I am wrong on this, I apologize again, but regardless of your natural tendency to defend your husband, I do not believe that there is a person on this planet that hasn’t done SOMETHING inconsiderate in 34 years at least in a small way. GEDOLIM felt at times that on their level they were being inconsiderate. I am not C”V implying that your husband is an inconsiderate person, but when a man and woman come together for the first time in each of their lives they are bound to overlook some needs of the other person since the ideas are foreign to them at first. It takes many years to perfect your being attuned to your spouse. 4) My personal things to look for in a girl are 1)kind 2) flexible 3)can we disagree respectfully with each other 4)can she bring up her concerns about me in a gentle, considerate manner and 5) can she accept my concerns about her and either point out to me why i am in error or agree to work on her growth. I don’t think learned is such a a biggie (when looking at a guy, i mean) since some people will understand that to have to do with smartness. I don’t think that is a very crucial thing to look for as a general thing in a relationship (some people need it, but it’s not a good example of a general concern). I don’t have any real objections to the other things you listed but I noticed that walking to the door wasn’t in your top ten. If you will include it in the first thing you listed, I refer you to my earlier comments about consensus and communication.
I hear what the guys are saying that there is no one way to go about this and every girl has a different opinion…so why dont we try this-
Men- try to feel it out. If the girl seems the “flirty” type who enjoyed when you opened all doors for her and took her coat etc…then by all means walk her all the way to the door.
If she is the yeshivish type who gets bashful when you look at her and open the door for her…then stay in the car.
Women- Forgive the guy for whichever one he chose and keep in mind that he cant please everyone if everyone likes something else.
Bochur, I don’t think we substantially disagree. I don’t believe I sounded vehement, but I do feel strongly about it, because my children were rbought up the way I was brought up, and that is to be considerate and well-mannered. So was my husband brought up like that, and despite what you would like to think, if you knew who he was, you would realize that he really IS one of a kind in the thoughtfulness department. It was recently our 34th anniversary of the night we became engaged. He went out and bought a card and a miniature cake, expressing his love and saying he would marry me all over again. I guarantee you most women would love that. Sorry to say, I did not think to do anything special to mark the occasion, other than to mention to our children that that day was THE day. But as I said, I need to work on myself. The people in my shul think he is a tzaddik, and one man told his wife (who told my daughter the other day) that my husband is the finest and msot thoughtful man he has ever met. I am not just saying empty words here. As I said, I am not nearly as good as he is. And he is exactly like his father, O”H, who took care of my invalid mother-in-law BY HIMSELF, for the last thirty years of her life, because he said it was his privilege.
I would not tell my kids to dump anyone, unless they themselves felt the person was not right for them. But I am fairly certain that they themselves would feel that a person who did not show eidelkeit and thoughtfulness, would not be the right person for them. I guess we must agree to disagree. Someday you will have your own Bochur24 B”EH, and maybe you will see a different perspective then.
oomis – that’s fine. my words are not only directed at you. there is a certain mentality on the world that there are signals and red flags. While I agree that occasionally a guy or girl will do something that IS a red flag, I feel that dating is not just some game. It is about building a relationship and relationship building includes taking even an offensive thing and working with it. I don’t like blanket statements and “rules” about what is tolerable or not. It is unfair to everyone involved. Unfortunately, there are many singles today who don’t get married because they are picky about things that, on the surface, sound reasonable. Similarly, there are married people who get into problems because they have not learned how to voice disapproval constructively. MOST things that bother a person on a date are not worth breaking up with the person for without giving it a chance. And I sincerely mean it when I say I am sure your husband is a tzaddik. However, if he is, I bet if you ask him, he can come up with many instances where he was not as thoughtful as he could be. That said, he is still a tzaddik and if he did do something you thought was inconsiderate I am sure you would at least speak to him about it saying “You know, you have always been such an amazing, loving husband. This thing you did was so uncharacteristic of you. I was wondering why you did it that way”. That’s what I am saying should be done even in dating. you are going out with someone who you have hopefully checked into and found out wonderful info about. He has treated you nicely in every other way and been eidel and respectful. Why would you jump to conclusions about him because of one act or lack thereof? Earlier you called such a person a jerk. Why?
whatrutalkingabt: I don’t think you’re being fair. Calling a girl who appreciates being walked to her door “flirty” is not right. I’ve stated over and over that not doing it is no biggie, and that some girls don’t like it.
I do feel that by nature, any girl would appreciate it. Some have a special reason why they don’t want it (neighbors, keep it quiet etc).
Its not right to suggest that a girl who does appreciate it is not yeshivish.
Its not an easy task, and certainly not an a first or second date, but it is a life-long task.
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