Wearing a טלית once married

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  • #607865

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Does anybody know the reason why most of the world only put on a טלית after marriage and not by בר מצוה, where most other מצוות begin? This is the only מצוה I know of which suddenly becomes activated after marriage. What has marriage got to do with it?

    • This topic was modified 4 weeks, 1 day ago by  YW Moderator-💯. Reason: fixed Hebrew
    #1184521

    rebdoniel
    Member

    It is not a halacha and it is not followed by most of the world.

    Yekkes historically wear the tallet gadol from the time of bar mitzvah, which the Chofetz Chaim believed was correct.

    This is purely a minhag, one without sufficient grounding, based on the different rayas I’ve seen (such as the idea that a tallis is equated with ohr hamakif which indicates simcha, and an individual unmarried has no simcha and therefore isn’t on the madrega of wearing a tallis.

    If anyone has a sufficient reason other than minhag brecht a din (sic), let’s see it.

    #1184522

    akuperma
    Participant

    Most of the world puts on a talis at Bar Mitzvah or earlier. In Eastern Europe, the minhag was to put one on only at marriage. This of course refers only to the larger tallis that is worn as a cloak. The smaller tallis which is worn as a shirt is put on in early childhood (when toilet trained, at age 3, or thereabouts).

    One theory is this has to do with historic poverty. The idea be that until marriage you haven’t become a grown up and therefore shouldn’t go around dressing like one.

    #1184523

    oomis
    Participant

    maybe the Tallis is symbolic of the chuppah itself or the idea of the bayis ne’eman that now surrounds him…?

    #1184524

    147
    Participant

    Yekkes historically wear the tallet gadol from the time of bar mitzvah, which the Chofetz Chaim believed was correct.

    RebDoniel:- Actually scroll back 1 decade earlier, as Jekkes usually commence wearing a Tallis Godol from about age 3.

    Of-course, as you RebDoniel so rightly said, waiting until marriage is not Halocho, and does not have sufficient grounding; i.e. It has no grounding.

    This fallacy is based on 2 Pesukim in Parshas Ki-Setze:- 1) Gedilim Ta’aseh Loch etc., immediately followed by the Posuuk of 2) Ki Yikach Ish Isho etc.

    The only problem with this ungrounded Limud is, that the verse to wear a Tallis comes before the Possuk of a marriage, so waiting until after the marriage for a Tallis is taking these 2 Pesukim in the wrong order.

    Tragically we see bachelors in their 60’s & 70’s who apart from tragically having missed out on the Mitzvos of marriage & procreation, also have missed out on the Mitzwah of Tallis Godol.

    #1184525

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This is not, as far as I can tell, an example of “a minhag brecht a din”, which is not true. The mitzvah of tztzis is not chiyuvis, so the minhag can legitimately determine when one should be mechayev oneself by wearing daled kanfos.

    #1184526

    zaidy78
    Participant

    Someone once told me that there is a mishna berura or a biyur halacha (I never saw it inside, so its only mi’pi shemua) that says the reason that reason the minhag started to only wear a tallis gadol after marriage is to put pressure on bochurim to get married.

    #1184527

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    There is actually no Pasuk at all to wear a Tallis. There is a Pasuk to wear Tzitzis and we do that from the Upsheren, when the chinuch in Torah begins and when we hope he can keep them clean enough.

    The only Mekor to wear a Tallis is the Bracha of Lehisatef. There is a Medrash about Hakadosh Baruch Hu showing Moshe Rabbeinu that He is wearing a Tallis, like a Baal Tefilla.

    Wearing a Tallis by Davenning is more an Inyan than a Din. It puts the person in a situation of strong focus.

    The Arizal said that the main point of the Tallis is covering the head. So much so that he held it is a Bracha Levatala if you don’t cover the head. Since we find in the Gemara that until marriage they didn’t cover their head, this can be a Makor for our long-standing Minhag — on this Inyan of wearing a Tallis.

    #1184528

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    147,

    It has no grounding.
    This fallacy is based on 2 Pesukim in Parshas Ki-Setze:- 1) Gedilim Ta’aseh Loch etc., immediately followed by the Posuuk of 2) Ki Yikach Ish Isho etc.

    Hopefully, when you called it a fallacy, you were unaware of the fact that it’s a Mahari”l and a Magen Avraham. The Mahari”l is quoted in Baer Heiteiv and Mishna Berurah (O.C. 18, 4 and 10, respectively). The Shyarei Knesses Hagedolah calls it “tamuah”(puzzling), not because of the order, but because we would expect even an unmarried person not to be batel from the mitzvah of tzitzis. It’s likely that we, who make a brachah on a tallis katan, would have no such issue. Since even unmarried men do wear a tallis (katan), they are not being batel from the mitzvah of tzitzis.

    The M”A is in O.C. 8, 3. He says that the Gemara in Kiddushin (29b) implies that unmarried men did not cover their heads with a tallis. Baer Heiteiv argues.

    #1184529

    R.T.
    Participant

    Sephardim and German/Yekke Yidden wear a Tallit from Bar Mitzvah. Having stated the above, it is extremely rare for a Bochur in these communities to cover his head with a Tallis, there are exceptions.

    The practice of Eastern European/Litvish & Chassidic bochurim not to wear a Tallis comes from the Rishonim, particularly the Maharil as a practice that is substantiated by a Gemara in Kiddushin which implies that unmarried people can not be on the Madrega to ‘wrap themselves’, whatever exactly that means.

    I used to jokingly say that it made logical sense not to wear a Tallis since it would be easily identifiable who is and who is not married, for shidduch purposes.

    A mekor for wearing a Tallis by marriage, actually comes from Megillat Ruth in Perek Gimmel, pasuk tet which states that Ruth asked Boaz to spread his garment over her. The Meforshim point out that the incident was the ‘signal’ for these 2 individuals to get married.

    The Bnei Yissaschar also point out that a Tallis is equivalent to Ohr Makif which he implies only applies to married men.

    #1184530

    I feel bad for my Yekke friends who are still bochorim since they are often mistaken as being married.

    #1184531

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    R.T.,

    What I’ve heard, although I have no source, is that the German minhag to have bochurim wear a tallis began when there were laws enacted against marriage, and this prevented recognition of who recently married.

    #1184532

    rebdoniel
    Member

    The poverty argument is the one which makes the most sense historically.

    OTOH, I’d want a set of Shas totalling about 2G as a chasuna present from the kallah’s side, more so than a tallis.

    In addition, those raised in non-Orthodox backgrounds are told explicitly when joining Orthodoxy NOT to stop performing the mitzvah of wearing a tallet gadol.

    #1184533

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    RebDoniel:- Actually scroll back 1 decade earlier, as Jekkes usually commence wearing a Tallis Godol from about age 3.

    Yes, this is correct. Why does everyone assume Bar Mitzvah?

    #1184534

    uneeq
    Member

    R.T. Sephardim and German/Yekke Yidden wear a Tallit from Bar Mitzvah.

    Us Sephardim start wearing a tallis from around age 9.

    #1184535

    Toi
    Participant

    im a yekke and we start from bar mitzvah in our family. i suppose even among yeks there are different minhagim.

    #1184536

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Yehudah Tzvi – I myself put on a ???? before my ?? ????. When i wrote ?? ???? in the opening post, i meant that then one should HAVE to put it on, and it shouldn’t be different to any other ????.

    #1184537

    Student of Torah
    Participant

    wearing a tallis katan doesn’t count?? why does someone lose out on the mitzvah of tzitzis if he doesn’t wear a tallis gadol?????

    #1184538

    Joseph
    Participant

    This is the only ???? I know of which suddenly becomes activated after marriage.

    There are other things that become activated after marriage. Another thing that comes to mind is being the Shliach Tzibbur on the Yomim Noraim.

    #1184539

    MDG
    Participant

    Halaivi said, “The Arizal said that the main point of the Tallis is covering the head.”

    There is a Gemara in Kiddushin, about Daf 30, that says that wearing a certain head covering up on the head is yuhara (showing off) if one is not married. That garment is interpreted to be a Talet Gadol.

    I have seen yekke bachurim wear a hat with their TG. I beleive it’s because they don’t wear their TG over their heads.

    #1184540

    pcoz
    Member

    It is not shayach for a tallis to be married.

    #1184541

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    My tallis has a kesher shel kayama.

    #1184542

    bklynmom
    Participant

    Sefardim bar mitzvah boys begin to wear tallisim.

    #1184543

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    When it was mentioned that pre-marriage yekkes don’t wear tallisim over their heads on this thread, it was referring to throughout the davening. Of course it’s still the custom to wrap it around the head right after the brachah is said, so there is no problem with the Arizal quote that HaLeivi mentioned.

    Also, from my experience, in Sephardi communities AND in minhag Ashkenaz the minhag is to wear a tallis gadol well before bar mitzvah. Is there anyone outside of the hederodoxy and Modern Orthodoxy that start exactly at bar mitzvah age? I see that a lot of people on this thread can argue the logic of starting at that point, but that’s not how minhagim are decided. The custom to wear it from age ~3 clearly goes way back, as does the custom to wait until marriage. What’s the basis to start at the bar mitzvah?

    #1184544

    mik5
    Participant

    There is a kabbalistic reason for wearing a tallis gadol only after marriage.

    [Drashos Maharil ibid] Some understood this statement to refer to even a Tallis Katan and thus questioned the custom. [Kneses Hagedola brought in Beir Heiytiv ibid] However, in truth its reference is only to the Tallis Gadol.

    #1184545

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I noticed at a Sphardi shul, some of the pre-Bar Mitzvah kids wear them in a non-halachically-correct way (like the reform Jews do). Anyone heard of this?

    #1184546

    kollelman
    Participant

    Neville: Some incorrectly wear it as a scarf, mostly due to lack of education. I don’t believe anyone holds this is correct. There are some who wear it in a way where it wraps their back until their elbows – sort of like a large shawl. This may or may not have halachic footing.

    As far as Sephardic custom – many boys begin wearing a Tallis around 2nd or 3rd grade (7-8 years old) – as they progress in learning to daven the entire Tefilah.

    As a side point, Sephardic men generally rely on the Brocha of the Tallis Gadol to cover them on their Tallis Koton – possibly because there is a “Safek Brochos” on it. Children that don’t wear a Tallis yet, are generally trained to make a Brocha on their Tallis Koton – until they get older and wear a full size Tallis.

    #1184548

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “As a side point, Sephardic men generally rely on the Brocha of the Tallis Gadol to cover them on their Tallis Koton – possibly because there is a “Safek Brochos” on it. Children that don’t wear a Tallis yet, are generally trained to make a Brocha on their Tallis Koton – until they get older and wear a full size Tallis.”

    My understanding was that, unlike Ashkenazim, they DO make a brachah on both. Can anyone else weigh in on this?

    #1184549

    kollelman
    Participant

    Neville: I researched it for you. Yalkut Yosef Chelek 1, Siman 19, Se’if 2. Loosely translated:

    Many have the Minhag to not make a Brocha on a Tallis Koton at all for several reasons; and they have it in mind when they make the Brocha on the Tallis Gadol.

    There are several reasons:

    – Maybe isn’t large enough – doesn’t have Shiur because it shrunk in the wash.

    – Maybe one doesn’t make a Brocha on a garment not worn in public (it’s worn under clothes)

    – They don’t want to enter a Machlokes regarding which Brocha to make on it.

    – They don’t want to enter a Machlokes if the walk from home to shul is a “Hefsek”

    However, tehnically, one is allowed to make a Brocha on it, if it the correct size and the tzitzis didn’t rip….

    #1733020

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Will someone explain to me the dirshu piece at Siman 8 where he says that Mishnah Berurah wonders why bochurim don’t put on a talis before getting married. Where did he find the M”B wondering about this?

    #1733030

    Joseph
    Participant

    YW-Mod 100: How’d you fix the Hebrew on the title/OP? Did you have to do it manually for each word or did you have a quicker fix (that might work for other old problematic threads with Hebrew)?

    #1733045

    Manually.

    #1733054

    laskern
    Participant

    I think that this is the reason the chasidim wear a big talis katan to be yotzei the mitzva of tzitzis.

    #1733052

    laskern
    Participant

    Look at MB 17:10

    #1733067

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    With all due respect, not all Sephardim follow Yalkut Yosef. There ARE instances when a bracha is recited over a Talit katan. Regarding Talit Gadol, the custom is to wear it at Bar Mitzvah. And NO COVERING HEAD. Only Talmidei Chachamim did that. If a lay person did it, it’s a sign of arrogance.

    #1733088

    laskern
    Participant

    The Chasan Sofer says that there is an implicatiion in the Torah of being mekayem the mitzva of tzitzis. It says
    ונתנו על ציצית הכנף it should have said ונתנו על הכנף ציצית but ‘al’ can have meaning because, that is in order to be mekayem the mitzva of tzitzis put corners on it.

    #1733291

    halochoscope
    Participant

    Regarding some Sepharadim who seem to wear it as a scarf, Temani “Sepharadim” wear the talis gadol draped around with all four tzitziyos at the front, except when they are chasanim. For ashkenazim, this is a mistake. For Temanim, this is the correct way it is worn.

    #1733298

    laskern
    Participant

    halochoscope, isn’t there a midrash to he sorounded by tzitsis? By the ashkenazim, the reformed were it like a scarf.

    #1733527

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Reb Laskern. Where is the מראה מקום for the Chasan Sofer you quoted on the Mitzva of tzitzis?

    #1733544

    halochoscope
    Participant

    Laskern: Wearing it as a scarf is a mistake according to all minhagim. Since it is only around the neck, it cannot be considered wearing it around the body. The machlokess minhagim is whether it should be wrapped around the body, with the tzitzis coming over the hands, or pulled back over the shoulders, which means that it doesn’t cover the sides of the body. In addition, the long part of the talis is not being worn around the body, only the wide, shorter part. As for the opinion of the Itur that there should be two tzitzis in front and two at the back, possible based on the Midrash that you reference, they have a way to reconcile that as well. For a scholarly treatment of the sources for the minhagim google nosachteiman and/or נהבג תמן בעטיפת טלית

    #1733563

    laskern
    Participant

    Talmidchochom,, חתן סופר סדר עבודת היום שער הגדילים והכלאים פרק י’ב also Halochscope the MIidrash is mentioned there in Os 4 from the Darkei Moshe SA O’CH 10.

    #1733560

    laskern
    Participant

    halochoscpe, there is also a mistake in the atifa where they cover their face but the Beer Moshe and the Yechaveh Daas say that the Yishmoelim don’t cover their face in order to see.

    #1733579

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Thank you, Laskern .

    #1733630

    halochoscope
    Participant

    Laskern it is a machlokess rishonim whether atifas Yishmaelim (assuming it leaves the top of the face exposed) is required for talis, or only for an avail. See Bais Yosef citing Itur. Many Sepharadim leave the top of the face exposed and cover the base, up to the nose. Most Ashkenazim cover the top of the face, down to the nose.

    #1733751

    laskern
    Participant

    Halochoscope, look at Yechaveh Daas 5:1 from the Beer Moshe being an Ashkenaz not to cover the face. Atifas Yishmoelim should be done and therefore covering the face is a mistake.

    #1736236

    MrSarahLevine613
    Participant

    So…while i am not going to transcribe his piece on this…R. Herschel Schachter in Oct 2012 spoke about this issue. It is about on minute 40 in a shiur on YU Torah called, oddly enough, Tzizit. In short, he says a few possible reasons. (1) There is a medrash that seizes on the juxtaposition of “ki yikach isha” and “gidilim taaseh”. Those pesukim are next to each other…thus you dont wear a tallit until your married. (2) He said that there were certain places where only the Rav wore a tallit and for a “regular” person to wear a tallis would be “yuhara” — and he thinks perhaps that is where the ashkenazi minhag for singles not to wear a tallis comes from. He also points out that there is a minhag for single people not to wear a Kittel on YK. It could be that this is related. (Again — dont take my word for it you can listen for yourself).

    I would take issue with one statement made here. [Not wearing a taliis for singles ” is not followed by most of the world.” Certainly in main stream ashkenazkic places (From Lakewood to YU) the minhag for singles not to wear a tallis. When my son made aliyah — he very much wanted to wear a tallis because even among the ashkenzim in the daati leumi world it is quite common for single men to wear a tallis. (I asked him not to. I probably should have just let him).

    #1736248

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Yes a there was a Minhag not just in Ashkenazic lands that only a Talmid Chacham would where a Talit. Lay people would not as this was Yohara. And certainly not cover their heads with it.

    #1736254

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Atifas Yishmoelim should be done and therefore covering the face is a mistake.”

    The M”A says to cover up to the upper lip (don’t cover the eyes), and M”B seems to prefer the opinion that one should cover down to the upper lip (do cover the eyes).

    My minhag is like the M”A, and I don’t really understand the logic of covering the eyes, but we aren’t really in a place to call it a “mistake.” Sphardim also seem to leave the eyes uncovered, but they seem to scrunch the tallis up more like a scarf when they do it. I’m not really sure why this is.

    #1736286

    laskern
    Participant

    MrSarahLevine613, What you are saying about yuhara applies to covering the head with the talis but not about wearing it. See the MB I referred to before 17:10.

    #1736332

    laskern
    Participant

    Nev, the MB is unclear it says until the mouth which could be from the bottom.

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