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i really dont like this thread. secret rebellion against Hashem you cant do because its ossur but wish you could bi’po’el? ichsa.
No rebellion against Hashem R’L. It is a moot question really. It is wonderful being a Jew and keeping the Torah. But it is also a great responsibility. Im really saying there is an Omek Hadin. Yiddishkeit isn’t warm fuzzies. Just read thru the yamim hanoraim machzor.
We do mitzvos and stay away from aveiros because as Yidden this is our job. There is no mitzva to volunteer for this. In fact beis din tries there best to disuade potential geirim from joining. Yes we have teshuva and Torah learning. gevaldik. If your teshuva isnt accepted by Hashem. If there isn’t the purest of teshuvah…then there is gehinom. Mishpotecha t’hom raba.
Nothing more to say. I am done with this discussion.
Hurray! Now that I have this whole discussion for myself, why not take advantage?
And I dare say it is not a moot question. It sheds light on our approach to Avodas HaShem. I hear your concern, yet I disagree. Men make a Brocha in the Morning Shelo asani goy, eved isha. Let’s take isha, for instance. Don’t you think it is so much better to be an isha, less mitzvohs to be worried about. An entire huge Yetzer hora wrapped up and done with. They’re spiritually so much safer than men. So what’s so “LUCKY” about being man (spiritually). So much to worry about. ??? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ?????. How many men truly “make it to the top”?
And the answer to this is that surely it comes with a great responsibility. But it’s SO WORTH IT. UN-COMPARABLE! When one conquers one’s burning yetzer to submit to ratzon Hashem, what rapture, pleasure, utter nachas he gives HaShem. That is the essence of those three brachos, to be ????? ????? in the maximum amount of mitzvhos possible.
So your answwer would likely be to one who knew nothing about Yiddishkeit from the inside, a newcomer who would want to join. But for one who has lived his life (albeit erroneously) as a practicing Jew, his inner being would want to remain.
Musser, you’re saying that now, but don’t forget we are talking about if you wouldn’t have a Yiddishe Kop. You would never think of this.
@Oh Shreck!
Your understanding of human nature is laughable.
Women have that same exact “yetzer harah” they are just slighty more subtle about it.
crisis- i find it laughable that women think their YH is comparable to men in this area. its not that theyre more subtle about it, its that it doesnt compare and can therefore be held in check with less effort, and doesnt need the same shmirrah as men to combat it. your understanding of male nature is entirely insufficient. unless you are a man, which would just be creepy.
If such a situation occurred, before the Sherman mishegoss, people would probably be able to rectify such a situation speedily. Nowadays, who knows?
Toi- It’s pretty sad that you think women do not have the same YH. The difference is, our society encourages men to act upon that YH without consequences. If a woman does the exact same thing she is referred to names that one can not publish on this site. I always found it amazing how some yeshiva bochurim are not shomer as teenagers but are “red” good shidduchim, while the girls are ostracized for being untznius. The problem is with society on how we find the behavior of one demographic excusable while the other is abhorrent.
It’s pretty sad that you think women do not have the same YH. The difference is, our society encourages men to act upon that YH without consequences.
And let me guess, you are a girl.
You don’t know the power of the Dark Side
@ golfer: Thanks for the compliment!
anon- i really dont want to go down this path, and i wont. ill spare you all the gory details. you honestly cannot, and i think i mean that literally, imagine how tough it is for men. im not talking about bummy guys, bad bochurim, or kids who go off the D. im talking about every single normal health male. just as you cant understand what it means to be in withdrawal from a drug (no shaychis intended, its just something that you cant claim to understand unless youve been there), you simply cannot fathom the difference in this YH. im not sure why its sad that its true, and i dont know why it bothers you. is it a feminist thing to insist that women must be equal to men in every respect, this included? im not excusing anyone for doing anything wrong, and they will burn for it, but the level of nisayon simply isnt equal.
I’d stop duchaning and have a very sad conversation with my boys.
I would wear shatnez and circular tefillin.
Toi: it is not a given that because he is a male and because she is a female that he automatically has a stronger yetzer hara than her. Furthermore, men and women may have an equally intense yetzer hara for the same thing, but for men it’s a purely physical drive while for women it’s mostly stemmed from emotional reasons.
interjection- youre certainly correct about your first point; im obviously speaking about generalities. To your second point- id have to disagree that theyre the same strength- men got torah as a tavlin for it and women dont- that should be a raayah. secondly, we find that men will go to unimaginable lengths to satisfy those taavos while we almost never hear of a woman doing anything of the sort. thirdly, while women do have an emotional YH that men dont, that wasnt the topic of discussion. i was specifically arguing that its acceptable to admit that men can have a stronger taaveh then women, and for some reason that went against someones equality standards, which is retarded.
Wow. This is a fascinating topic. In fact, it’s the same topic that fascinates the rest of the media and multimedia.
+1 HaLeiVi
Shopping613 [$]613 The Awarder, President, and founder of SUC (Single Username Certificates) contact me to join.
Current members: Me ShtickyGuy Aurora77
I have, lo aleichem, relatives that are jewishly aware, but woefully ignorant and as secular and disconnected as gentiles. When they speak to us of their kids’ achievements, their cultural and social involvements, we smile and nod, and feign interest, but inside we are flabbergasted by the hollowness of their lives. I could not conceive finding out that I wasn’t who I was, and not seeking a path back to that fulfilling, meaningful existence. And I am fairly certain that I am 1/35184372088832 Khazari, descended from geirim.
I would get in my weekly chillul shabbos by stirring the cholent on Friday night to get all the meat that sunk to the bottom.
I would get around the prohibition against learning Torah by only learning my chavrusa’s svarot (hope he doesn’t see this).
“men got torah as a tavlin for it and women dont- that should be a raayah.”
Women got tznius.
“thirdly, while women do have an emotional YH that men dont, that wasnt the topic of discussion”
Ill say it more explicitly since you misunderstood what I was saying. The male taayva is generally that they desire others whereas a woman’s taayva is to be desired.
It’s the same yetzer hara with equal intensity. The only difference is how men and women express it.
” i was specifically arguing that its acceptable to admit that men can have a stronger taaveh then women, and for some reason that went against someones equality standards, which is retarded.”
Because men walk around thinking they deserve the world coming to them for having morals. If it helps your ego I applaud you for being a good boy.
Sorry, Interjection, but I am a woman and I can tell you that I have no where NEAR the same strong yetzer hara that a man has in that area. I’ve spoken about this with my (girl) friends, and my brother and his friends, and you can not compare.
Its just a fact, and its the way Hashem made the briyah since he created the world.
And by the way, that is one of the reasons why men have soo many more commandments then woman (like yarmulke, tzizus, torah) etc. cuz they need so much more to keep them in check.
Don’t get me wrong, we still have it but saying that it is equal is simply laughable.
Interjection, mind you I did reply something yesterday to crisisoftheweek, who told me “my understanding of human nature is laughable”.
So it was cute little me who started this whole thingy. Inadvertently. I only used it as an allegory, in passing. I had no need really to continue on this needless argument.
As I wrote, I did respond, I prefaced it with writing that it’s not really a tznius subject to subject out chosheve readers to. I wrote some ???? ?????, only some beginnings of a few issues. Ended again writing that I had no need to continue this un-tznius topic. MOD edited it, subsequently deleted it entirely, saying even that was a bit too much. In a way I’m happy to know there are moderators here who will not let too much garbage through.
But a bit you’re obviously allowed to know. A female cannot and will NEVER, EVER grasp the nisyonos of the other side. She’d have to be male (with all accessories) for that.
Cannot and will not elaborate.
One more point (I hope mod let’s it in) HaShem gave us a fiery holy Torah as a tavlin to battle a most fiery fleshy yetzer.
And yes, someone who truly conquers his yetzer horah – ???? ???? ??!!
interjection- if only you knew.
Toi: Your argument is wrong. Your conclusion might be true, but your argument is inherently flawed. You are telling a woman that she can’t be write because she can’t know what it’s like to be a man. And yet, you can’t know what it’s like to be a woman, so I’m not sure how you can honestly make your claim.
batseven and oh shreck!: my entire post was just an elaboration on what I had posted earlier, although this is the clincher. “it is not a given that because he is a male and because she is a female that he automatically has a stronger yetzer hara than her.”
sam2- no, im telling her she cant be right.
Sam2: A woman can WRITE better than a man, an extension of ???? ????.
interjection – right on. But people don’t want to accept that because of the implications.
batseven, “And by the way, that is one of the reasons why men have soo many more commandments then woman (like yarmulke, tzizus, torah) etc. cuz they need so much more to keep them in check.
Very good point, and I use that point to disagree strongly. Did you ever look into the highly unequal level of commandments of tznius, men versus women? You may have been taught that this was for the man’s sake but that is not really the whole truth. It is for the exact reason you stated, cuz they need so much more to keep them in check. But “they” is also woman.
“Oh Shreck! One more point (I hope mod let’s it in) HaShem gave us a fiery holy Torah as a tavlin to battle a most fiery fleshy yetzer”.
Here is a little conspiracy theory-who doesn’t like them?!!!
But since the women really want to learn Torah, and according to some people on this site, they get the same sechar and Mitzvah as a man(www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/oh-they-just-wanna-be-like-men-1) , then maybe they will now get the same Yetzer Horah/Taivoh as men!!
For the women who think that wearing a skirt that covers the knees is comparable to the same Yetzer Hara (in this area) as men, picture the following.
Imagine not wanting to shop. Now I don’t mean imagine not shopping. I mean imagine not ever WANTING to shop.
(let us assume that we are talking about someone who is single just to make this example easier).
Imagine never ever wanting to shop, this includes averting your eyes when passing a shop window, never going to the mall, never talking to other people about clothes, never thinking that you should ever be buying clothe. Imagine preparing for your sister’s wedding but not talking, thinking, discussing, dreaming or anything regarding what you are going to wear.
Imagine just NEVER thinking about any clothes EVER.
Now we are beginning to understand!
Syag: So you are trying to say that the woman’s commandments are equal in intensity to that of a man? C’mon.
You may be right that tznius could also be to protect the woman, and not just the man, but even so, the woman’s mitzvos pale in comparison to what a man has to busy with the whole day.
Are we trying to dispute the words of Hashem that say “barasai yetzer hara, barasi torah tavlin”? Now do women have to learn Torah? No! Now, maybe they have tznius but no where in the torah does it say so explicitly that tznius is a protection from the yetzer hara. We can argue all we want, but I am just making my point from the Torah.
Quite a good place to make a point from, don’t you think?
…shatnez
For the women who think that wearing a skirt that covers the knees is comparable to the same Yetzer Hara (in this area) as men, picture the following.
If you gleaned that from my words then you didn’t understand my point. I don’t think there is a woman around who thinks that.
batseven – So you are trying to say that the woman’s commandments are equal in intensity to that of a man?
no, that wasn’t at all what our topic was.
Also, saying that your point came from Torah doesn’t mean it did. I cannot explain my point clearly in a mixed (or online, for that matter) forum so if anyone got it, great. If not, then not. But please don’t put words in my mouth.
yacr85 – just wanted to mention that your analogy was very cool. I like your creativity.
Just a side, additional answer to your comment about covering the knees not being a comparable y”h – did you notice how many people are NOT covering their knees? Did you notice how many wives in kollel lives expose their knees? Did you notice how many rebbetzins expose their knees? Does this give you a mild clue to how strong that Y’H is for women who just CANNOT STOP THEMSELVES from exposing themselves inappropriately (I am talking only about those who know they should and wish they could).
Syag lchachma
Nobody does an aveira because they can’t control themselves its just that its very hard and we give in to our nisyonos. Hashem did not require anything of us that is impossible. Just difficult and against our physical side. It is our job to use our logical side to overpower the physical drives that we have. When we don’t we basically act like animals who are focused on physicality. I’m a man and I can’t say I can ever understand the womans yetzer hora, however logically it makes no sense to me why a married woman would walk down the street looking like she wants every man to feast his eyes on her. If Hashem blesses you with physical beauty (even if you are a man) it is for your spouse not to act like a piece of meat and to get people to desire you. I will never understand this nesayon but any woman with half a brain in her head even if she isn’t Jewish should understand that if you want people to like you the person you are inside then accentuate that aspect of yourself. If you want people to desire your body then you accentuate that aspect. If you accentuate your physical beauty too much it sends tbe message that you are empty inside and all you are is an object. Why would anyone do that? I don’t get it. If you are married you shouldn’t think ot other men. Other men should not exist for you. If you still get a kick out of men staring at you in the street you aren’t healthy emotionally or spiritually and I can’t imagine that you can have marital bliss if you care about the approval of male strangers on the street.
WIY – beautifully said. Thank you for making my point.
I have I agree except I wouldn’t say they are disturbed mentally, but a big part of it is that their husbands don’t say anything . A women with respect For her husband will automatically dress tznius and btw if ur proof is too look at how many women don’t cover their knees to show that they JUST “CANT”eg; rebtzins etc. go look at how many women DO COVER THIER KNEES, um all the chassidhish communities and if u don’t wanna compare urslef to them then look at practically any country besides for America or even most city’s outside of ny not all but most , it’s a matter of what society enforces as important and what they don’t and unfortunatly nobody really cares anymore so … And also NOBODY CANNOT DO SOMETHING UNLESS THEY ARE AN ADDICT OR SOMETHING OF THE LIKE AND I DOUBT THEY ARE ADDICTED TO WALKING AROUND WITH SHORT SKIRTS… ( mayb addicted to ppl staring at them though lol)
oh gosh.
i would cry.
and then go to Bais Din and convert.
and then i’d throw a party! with ice cream!
I dunno what I would do; I’d have a big problem on my hands – would I have to keep Shabbos or not?
The big question is, when accepting Geirus, would you willingly become a Yekke?
if i find out that i wasn’t jewish, then
i would keep all the mitzvois
BUT
i would get rid of this great big wide black hat,
i would wear checked shirts that don’t show every stain,
i would go to shul in Crocs,
…
And
..
and when i wake up after the chjolent on shabbos afternoon i would have a coffee.
Zushy
“and when i wake up after the chjolent on shabbos afternoon i would have a coffee.”
If you didnt have a neshama yeseira you wouldnt wake up in the first place!
Ayayashreichem24
Can we have an ice cream party “just cuz?”
Sorry wiy, don’t get it.
Goyim wake up, so do cats.. why would i be different.
Zushy
Its a miracle that we wake up after eating cholent lol.
Ok, get it/
Can i join the single user name group?
Zushy, i agree.
Just wondering, would you wear shabbos shoes?
I would be sachsom shor b’dishoy
Yatzmich
While wearing shatnez?
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