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I like what nisht said here:
As far as saying the minhag should be abolished, the people who wish so, want to do so just to show that they can overturn a centuries old hangagah at their whom and not for any neccesity. There does not seem to be any pressing society need to change the minhag. There are way more options today for food than there ever has been.
To quote from R’ Yair Hoffman’s response (in the news section) to this exact issue:
“…the Rishonim and leading Rabbis of Klal Yisroel have spoken extensively about how it wrong to cast aspersions on a minhag in Israel (See, for example, Tashbatz Vol. IV Siman 32; Rivash Siman 35, Sdei Chemed Vol. IV page 270(. It is wrong to attribute
So how and why did the custom emerge to forbid Kitniyos? The reason why kitniyos were forbidden, was on account of a protective measure. The Mishnah Berurah (O.C. 453:6, 464:5) provides a few explanations:
(1) Kitniyos are harvested and processed in the same way that chametz is. The masses would confuse the two and come to permit grains for themselves.
(2) Kitniyos can also be ground and baked, just like chametz, and people might come to permit chametz grains.
(3) The Kitniyos themselves may have actual chametz mixed in. All three reasons are therefore protective in nature. The prohibition was strictly limited to consumption; one may own and derive benefit from kitniyos on Pesach.
If such a mistake can happen, then one can easily see why some later Rishonim would push to stop a minhag that can have such disastrous consequences.
MORE ON KITNIYOS
Joseph:
“If you mean that the Litvaks didn’t become Chasidim, you’re correct. But the Litvish gedolim sit on the same moetzes gedolei haTorah as the Chasidish gedolim and on the same communal organizations”
While the Litvish Gedolim do indeed work together with Chassidish ones in areas where they have they have shared interests, they do not condone Chassidish practices that they have always opposed (practices that follow Kabbala in contraction to Halacha, laxity in zmanim, etc). And indeed, I think that should be a model for how we American Chareidim should relate to the MO; working together in areas of shared interests, while remaining opposed to practices and beliefs that we think are incorrect. (Although admittedly the argument could be made that we have less shared interests with the MO than we do with the Chassidim.)
Sam2:
“I’m not sure that works by a Minhag. If the Minhag wasn’t Nahug, it’s kinda not a Minhag anymore.”
Interesting point. However, I don’t know if we can consider the fact that one particular application of a minhag was not nuhag, arguably bi’taos (according to the Poskim that assur peanuts), as an actual change in the minhag.
Less,
I insulted you? I just said thata your question does not warrant an answer.
Nothing you’ve said has changed that.
mw13: The Litvish and Chasidish Gedolim don’t merely “work together in areas they have shared interests.” They have a high degree of respect and admiration of each other. And they work on interests in the Torah world almost across the board. i.e. the Satmar Rebbe is not infrequently visiting his friend Hagaon HaRav Kotler in Lakewood and Rav Kotler doing the same in KJ – with both giving shiurim to the other’s talmidim they are visiting. This is by far the rule. The Agudah and Moetzes with its integration of the Litvish and Chasidim is an institutionalized living example.
Nisht, why should I be the last one to ask? You won’t answer because you don’t have an answer
Bump
Why? This whole topic has been nicely rehashed this year in other threads, including ZD’s claims that bread can be made from potatoes and that it’s hard to shop for non-kitniyot in E”Y. As Yogi Berra said, it’s like deja vu all over again.
Pretty interesting how people don’t back down from their opinions which are based on misinformation, even when given the facts.
Anyhow, the reason I bumped this is because it’s still fascinating to see the left wing doing backflips to denigrate the minhag of kitniyos (and certainly some applications of it), and it still begs the question of why.
Even sefardim agree that kitniyot, such as rice, have to be checked for actual chametz. They know how to check, it is part of their mesora just like they know how to look for simanim of kosher grasshoppers. Theoretical knowledge is not enough; one must have actual real life experience. Ashkenazim don’t have this mesora and have no business taking from the sefardim.
“Just because a grain has been (relatively) recently discovered does not mean that it can’t fall into a category, and hence a prohibition”
Except that with kitniyot there is no prohibition. It is a longstanding minhag.
(FWIW I absolutely oppose dropping that minhag unless one actually moves to a Sefardic community and adopts all Sefardic minhagim and halachic rulings.)
“Kitniyos are harvested and processed in the same way that chametz is. “
Not true for rice — almost all of it is grown in flooded fields. None of the harvesting equipment used for land based plants would work. Think Pharoah’s chariots in the Yam Suf.
It is based on minhag, but it is an issur.
DY: I wouldn’t say that. I would call it a Minhag not to eat it. It has the strength of any and every Minhag. Which is quite considerable.
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x2208
:???? ?????
????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???
Kitniyos are harvested and processed in the same way that chametz is.
We don’t hold like him, but the Chayei Adam wrote that
potatoes are kitniyos – evidently, he didn’t think so.
Also, the ???? of the ??”? clearly indicates that it is an ?????.
Sam2, would you agree that there is an issur to do melachah on the second day of yomtov? And if so, why is this different?
DY: I said the strength of a Minhag was considerable. It’s not quite a real Lo Sasur (which is reserved for Issurei D’Rabannan), so I would assume that that line was Derech Melitzah.
mw: Yom Tov Sheni is a Din D’Rabannan, even if the origin was a “Minhag”.
Why would you assume that?
Do you also assume that when the ??”? says ?? ??????, he also doesn’t really mean it?
I didn’t think you were such a left winger.
The religious left has a tendency of acting like Sphardi minhagim are categorically better than Ashkenazi. This probably comes from the tendency of all forms of leftists to act like all things Western are bad. Kitniyos is probably the epitome of Ashkenazi minhag because it’s one of the few that’s kept in all corners of the Ashkenazi world (Yekkes, Chasidim, Litvaks, Oberland…).
DY: I think that Minhagim are very strong. I’m saying Kitniyos is Assur MiTa’am Minhag, not a real D’Rabannan. It makes perfect sense to use the word “Assur” in that context, but it is not a real “Isser” per se. Does that make sense?
And there are some real Nafka Minos here. For example, I know of major Poskim who are Mattir Kitniyos for those with (real) gluten allergies/celiac disease, because limiting them to only potatoes (and now quinoa) all of Pesach is just too much. That would never happen with something we treat as a D’Rabannan, but by a Minhag there is a tiny bit more wiggle room.
Sam2:
Yom Tov Sheni is a Din D’Rabannan, even if the origin was a “Minhag”.
I thought it was the other way around; a Minhag with an origin in an Isser Di’Rabbanan. This is why it goes by where you live, like all minhagim do, as opposed to where you currently are.
I know of major Poskim who are Mattir Kitniyos for those with (real) gluten allergies/
I developed some crazy food sensitivities in the last years and gluten (or flour?) gives me terrible headaches and literally puts me to sleep. I had the same reaction, for some reason, to gluten free oat matzo. I couldn’t figure out why my head hurt when i was eating non-gebrocts pesach food til i deduced that potatoes is also a problem. I can eat yogurt but when i ate cheese for lunch I was in much pain.
while it pains me so much not to have anything to eat for the mitzvah of matza, or for most of the meals, i could not see myself eating kitniyos on Pesach. Id rather be hungry (which, by the way, i am).
When something is assur mita’am minhag, often the minhag was never to be machmir b’shaas had’chak. An example that comes to mind is waiting six hours for Ashkenazim, where we are more meikil for cholim than Sefardim would be.
When it’s assur, though, it’s assur.
If the Rema and poskim say it’s assur, you shouldn’t be afraid to say it’s assur. The fact that there’s some more “wiggle room” doesn’t change the fact that it’s assur.
SY
I would ask your Rav, there might be a heter for you to eat Kitnyot
no interest
Bump
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