When a child eats traif.

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  • #881197
    MorahRach
    Member

    Speak for yourself. I personally work with a number of goyim who I consider friends. I have gone to get togethers at a mom-Jews house and they ordered in triple wrapped food from a place acceptable to my family, we had a table just for our food and the entire party was served on plastic ware. I am not of the belief that I am on a higher level then a fellow Jew OR fellow human. We are all on this earth together.

    Back to the OP. as long as you supervise your child you should be fine! Gl

    #881198
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    zdad: Yeah, I know though it’s not quite that close, I’ve read some of the studies. Though I know that it’s not closer than third cousin because I know who all my relatives are that far out and none of them are frum.

    #881199
    pcoz
    Member

    shaigetz – Aryeh Kaplan has the observation that every Jew is descended from approximately every Jew that lived 500 years ago about every 500 years

    #881200
    oomis
    Participant

    oomis: I’m sorry to tell you this, but that is not a good proof. It is very easy to browse without leaving a history, as well as to delete specific things from the history. “

    Thank you for this information, of which I was unaware.

    #881201
    shmoel
    Member

    The lowest Yid is on a much much higher madreiga than the best goy.

    #881202
    pcoz
    Member

    disagree – depending on your definition of Yid

    #881203
    far east
    Member

    shmoel- “The lowest Yid is on a much much higher madreiga than the best goy.”

    so according to you levi aaron is better then the best guy. Intelligent obervation :

    #881204
    Kozov
    Member

    Frame your question any way you want, a Jew is a Cheilek Eloka Mimaal, a goy isn’t. I’m not minimizing any atrocities.

    #881205
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    oomis –

    Might I suggest you watch R. Gil Student’s recent video clips entitled “The Internet Shiur.” You can find them on his blog (Torah Musings) or via Google search. His hashkafa is much closer to yours than what is being espoused by others these days, and you may find a lot of what he says enlightening. I found them worth my while.

    #881206
    oomis
    Participant

    Thank you, Yitayningwut, for the suggetion.

    #881207
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    🙂

    #881208
    pcoz
    Member

    Kozov – if the jew has destoyed their chelek elokah mimaal (im timze lomar), then they are no longer a chelek elokah mimaal

    #881209
    oomis
    Participant

    Ok, I just watched Part 1 of Rabbi Student’s lecture. He is a really noteworthy speaker, and I agree with everything he said, though he certainly does not need my endorsement.

    Shmoel- the lowest Yid has the spiritual potential for greatness, more than a non-Jew. But to say that the lowest Yid is higher than the best Goy, is a remark that requires scrutiny. I know some non-Jews who will ALWAYS be better than some Jews whom I know. The sad fact is that Hashem gave Klal Yisroel a matana, and not every Yid makes proper use of it, or even appreciates it. Many non-Jews are fine, eidel, and kind-hearted people, who live a moral and caring life. Would you consider them to be lower than any Yid, even a murderer or pervert, simply by virtue of their non-Jewish status?

    #881210
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    oomis – glad to hear.

    #881211
    Kozov
    Member

    pcoz- Elokus is indestructible. And a Jew is always connected (though how much varies). See Tanya, Iggeres Hatshuva, and specifically the end of Perek 5. Here’s a link:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49432&st=&pgnum=192&hilite=

    oomis- you’re right that it requires scrutiny, but i think you’ll agree that shmoel intended something that runs much deeper than utility and appreciation.

    #881212
    pcoz
    Member

    kares means that a jew is excised from their spiritual source

    #881213
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Who is a greater person Bernie Madoff or Rauol Wallenberg?

    #881214
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    pcoz: Kares means that the neshama ceases to exist after the body dies. See RaMBaM hilchos teshuva.

    #881215
    oomis
    Participant

    I think that Shmoel’s post intentionally or not, reflects an elitist idea that many Jews hold, because they take the expression that Jews are superior to non-Jews as an all or nothing idea. Jews are superior in a spiritual sense, our neshomas have something extra with which Hashem has gifted us. But the lowest Jew IMO is not better than the best non-Jew, if by low we mean scrum of the earth (and R”L there are such Jews). Levi Aron, is not better than a morally pure non-Jew who saved Jewish lives during the Holocaust. His Jewish neshoma has the potential to make him better, but he chose to ignore that potential and be a rasha. I will take the Goy over him anyday.

    #881216
    sushee
    Member

    If the only two men in the world left were Raoul Wallenberg and Bernie Madoff, I would hope anyone would marry their daughter to Madoff rather than Wallenberg.

    #881217
    Kozov
    Member

    Oomis, surely you are aware that the quality of a Jew doesn’t only lie in his potential. Consider for example the statement of our sages “maaminim ubnei maaminim” or “af al pi shechata yisroel hu” (though these things also have to do with potential). There is a bigger picture you are ignoring or missing. And that doesn’t mean action is inconsequential and that goyim have no significance. Shmoel wasn’t talking about that. There may be cases where someone gets his soul cut off entirely as people have suggested and sourced here, i’m not sure, but on the most part even a Jew rasha goes to gehinnom and then goes to gan eden, as opposed to a goy. The eternity of the Jewish reflects this deeper reality than you seem to be expressing. We all share the same soul root, thats why perfect tzaddikim like the Arizal said viduy, its the essence of ahavas yisroel and the reason for kol yisroel areivim ze laze and that explains why choosing Jews isnt unfair because they were not chosen in a lottery but rather they originally come from a higher realm than the physical. That is why so many things. This concept has so many ramifications and is so integral to Judaism. Its quite ridiculous to say that Shmoel was intending to argue with your point about a wicked Jew’s actions being filth compared to a goy’s. I also struggle to understand some of these value scales and notions but since its what our sages tell us i try to understand it, and its not as intuitivelly challenging as you make it sound. Again, you challenge Shmoel as if its an argument but you’re really discussing two different points.

    #881218
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If the only two men in the world left were Raoul Wallenberg and Bernie Madoff, I would hope anyone would marry their daughter to Madoff rather than Wallenberg.

    If your daughter Married Wallenberg, your grandkids would be Jewish and they would have a Tzddik as a father and learn about proper middos

    If your daughter Married Madoff, the grandkids would be jewish , Learn about how important money is and lose their neshma to it.

    #881219
    Josh31
    Participant

    If the only men in the world available to your daughters were the sons of Moshe Rabeinu and the sons of Korach….

    #881220
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If the only men in the world available to your daughters were the sons of Moshe Rabeinu and the sons of Korach….

    I’d worry far more about the character of the individual son than who their fathers are.

    The Wolf

    #881221
    oomis
    Participant

    If the only men in the world available to your daughters were the sons of Moshe Rabeinu and the sons of Korach….”

    FTR, the sons of Korach did teshivah and were saved. No?

    And to answer Kozov, I still do not accept that the worst Jew is better than the best Goy. Not if his worst is REALLY heinous. It might be better to BE the lowest Jew (economically, socially, and educationally than the best Goy, but I don’t think that’s what was meant, though I could be wrong. And though we believe that Af al pi shechatah, Yisroel hu, depending on the cheit, he could be chayav kareis, and the Goy could be going to his chelek in olam haba whatever that is. I just don’t believe we should be so full of ourselves that we say stuff like “the worst Jew…” etc.) Hashem made Bnei Noach before us, and they also are rewarded for their 7 mitzvos.

    #881222
    pcoz
    Member

    ItcheSrulik Shaigetz – that is ridiculous and against the theory of conservation of (spiritual) matter

    #881223
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    better

    Until someone defines this term (i.e. better in what way? What does being “better” mean?), the discussion at hand is pointless.

    The Wolf

    #881224
    Kozov
    Member

    funny. But no not neccessarily because the neshoma might leave the guf.

    #881225
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    pcoz: Take it up with the Rambam. He apparently didn’t hold of applying Thermodynamics to Ruchniyus, after all he considers Merkava and Bereshis separate limudim.

    #881226
    pcoz
    Member

    too hard, I can’t get my head round that. I’m just a simple Isaac Newton man

    #881227
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Until someone defines this term (i.e. better in what way? What does being “better” mean?), the discussion at hand is pointless.

    Good point.

    #881228
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    How did this come in here?

    As to the original topic, you should realize that most 7 year olds have the concept of Kosher and Traif deeply ingrained. Children relate very well to the untouchable concept.

    When a child has frequent contact with close people who eat Traif, he will not be able to view non-Kosher as off the map. It will be more like we don’t eat it but they may. That is why the child is sneaking a piece.

    Adding to this is the fact that most probably we are dealing with a BT, who may have the disadvantage in Chinuch of the children feeling that all this is a choice of their parents, rather than iron-clad.

    When someone has such a situation it will take a lot more effort to give over the correct attitude to the child. It is hard to give specifics, but having more solid Frum aquaintances is one idea. More importantly, speak often and a lot of Hashem, the Torah, Olam Haba, S’char, Moshiach, Kedusha, Neshama, Matan Torah and Mitzvos.

    #881229
    Kozov
    Member

    oomis, I would be intrigued to hear your opinion on chayavei misos beis din. And don’t forget, even chayavei krisus are still around inasmuch as they can do teshuva until they die. So as long as they’re around they’re Jewish as before.

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