July 27, 2012 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #889041
I think it was actually kinda funny…. and commensurate with the treatment ive been receiving over the last few daysJuly 27, 2012 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #889042
yeshivishsocrates -“As for tachlis, “The ultimatum is either you go for help or I’m leaving.” That sort of ultimatum is exactly the one i was saying was wrong for the occasion. She has to be on his side, its a shared issue and acting in the way you suggest he should is indicative of a very different stance. Even if it is successful as a deterrent for him, the more devastating result is the breakdown in this relationship. If he does “give up” out of the fear of losing her, his commitment is far less strong as its not based on his own motivation but from a lack of options.”
My post to you last nite was deleted, even though yours’ was accepted.
You didn’t understand my post -perhaps the topic is too difficult for young people. The ultimatum wasn’t for him to stop his behavior -only to go for therapy. And even if that was the ultimatum, it still works. Your implication for her to do it alone or if she can’t, to let him be – is ridiculous. She shouldn’t allow this behavior -no matter what! Therapy is the solution and if not, perhaps divorce.
And I personally know s/o who gave their hubby an ultimatum about his addiction to stop, not what I was talking about, and he did. It solved the problem. And no, it wasn’t me.
Your solution of her getting him to stop has no basis in reality!July 27, 2012 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #889043
health- your nice little study on smoking is not comparable to an internet porn addiction. Smoking is a chemical addiction, while looking at bad things is a mental addiction (although i will give you that it is also chemical but not the same as smoking). Additionally, the subjects in your study didnt have a “next to nothing” chance of quitting, i believe it was more than 7 percent who did quit on their own. Considering smoking is the stronger addiciton, kal vchaomer i would assume more then 7 percent of people are able to quit the internet addiction on their own. Further study is definitely neededJuly 28, 2012 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #889044
Your supercilious and sanctimonious attitude is so inordinately offensive im surprised that any of your posts are not deleted. I keep stressing this and you persevere, this is not personal, i dont know you at all so i have no reason to be arguing on any plane other than the intellectual one. For some odd reason, you persist with your insecure denigration.
The fact that someone you know succeeded with an ultimatum is likely to be in spite of the fact that an ultimatum and probably not because of. Ultimatums are horrible ideas within relationships and promote division – not unity.July 29, 2012 11:48 am at 11:48 am #889045
I did not have time to fully play catch up due to the enormous amount of posts. From what I did read though, I didn’t see Snyone supporting buster crown. Everyone is so quick to say her husband needs endless support and understanding and love. He is doing something disgraceful and disrespectful to HKBH and to his wife. I am not saying that she should leave him but if she did entertain the thought, could you blame her? I think there are a lot of men posting here as if this is what they would want their wives to do if they had this taiva. Let’s not forget though that even if she does try and help her husband overcome this, if that is possible, she still needs understanding and reassurance that we do not all think she is doing a poor job as a wife and that is it all her responsibility to fix this.July 29, 2012 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #889046
The issue here is not with the husband looking at certain sites, but the cause of him looking at those sites. Yes, every man has a tayvah, but it is different to act upon it. For all those who suggest a wife going to a Rov, I would be the first to inform all of you that if my wife ever embarrassed me like that, I would ask for a divorce; and I told her this. If there is an issue she wants to discuss, she should come to me first before talking about it to anyone else. I just find it amusing that couples share the same home, but find it difficult sharing their thoughts and feelings.
Second, as mentioned, before, a Rov is not a marriage counselor and cannot help a couple in the time of need. Yes, he can discuss the halachos, avaros, punishments, etc, but not the cause.
The question everyone should be asking is why is he looking at those sites? What is driving him there? Most likely, there is a fundamental issue in their marriage that only a professional, certified marriage counselor can discuss and resolve.
And if looking at those sites cause alarm enough for a divorce, then the couple should get divorced since it seems the wife does not love her husband enough to help him through this time. The divorce is bound to happen sooner a later; either with him looking at sites, not wearing his black hat in the bathroom, or any other action that she deems inappropriate. My suggestion would be for him to divorce her because as they get older he might get sick and she would not know how to handle it either.July 29, 2012 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #889048
1. Whenever we have problems and challenges, and this is certainly one, they are an impetus to turn to God and beseech Him and through that to come close to Him.
2. God wants to bestow His goodness in this world; we need to recognize Him as the source of all goodness and beseech Him for that goodness. That allows the channels to open up and the goodness to flow from heaven.
To all wives:
3. You must compliment all his successes and any progress.
4. “but, if you would improve a bit more….” is destructive.
6. Whenever want to say negative, say positive.
5. Tell him how much u appreciate everything he is doing.
7. You must your feminine bina yiteirah to make sure that he never perceives of you as nag and that you you only build him up. The cruelest thing a wife can do is nag her husband.
8. Always show respect and honor no matter what. He needs your respect and support.
9. Should always be speaking in sweet loving voice.
10. Be tolerant.
12. Be the emotional support in his life always.
13. The only way he’ll change is if his love grows for u.
14. Believe in him. He needs you to believe he is trying hard and he’s a good man.
17. He is under so much pressure and so many demands are being made of him. The one place he doesn’t need to feel more pressure is at home.
20. Give him your love, not your demands.
21. Derech Eretz! this means not only being poilite and good manners, but also to avoid anger, impatience, sadness, ect.!
Suggestions for you both:
“One cannot start one’s day with enthusiasm unless they end the night with enthusiasm.”
24. Show him ur zest.
25. Look good.
26. Invite him to join you for a brisk exercise walk.
27. Kosher gym.
28. Play a game (Rummikub, Poker,..).
30. Watch sunrise.
32. Tell him to teach you how to sing.
33. Learn French.
34. Chevruta (chofetz chaim daily, parsha..).
35. Tell something u learned. how did it change you? What did you learn about living?
Suggestions for your husband on other ways to spend his time:
36. Write articles.
37. Write a sefer.
38. Tutor someone.
Hashem has 7 qualities which enable us to put
our trust in Him:
1. Hashem loves me.
2. Hashem is with me wherever I happen to be,
and He is always ready to help me.
3. Hashem is stronger and smarter than everyone
in the world, and He can find solutions to problems
that seem impossible to solve.
4. Hashem knows what is best for me, even better
than I myself know.
5. Hashem has helped me many times in the past,
and just as He did, He will help me again now.
6. Hashem has total control over everything, and
nobody other than Him can do anything to help or
harm me without Hashem’s permission.
7. Hashem wants and seeks to do chessed, more
than the most wonderful and kindhearted person
I can imagine.
Rabenu Be’Chai- Chovot Hallevavot- Shaar
HaBitachonJuly 29, 2012 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #889049
After that comment, one thing I can certainly say to Bustercrown: You have a much better husband than anon1m0us.July 29, 2012 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #889051
Rabboisai, just some chizuk. The worst thing about any addiction is not the thing itself, but the bitul zman. There is so much opportunity to do good in this world, and so little time, that we can’t afford to waste any. So many people are suffering. Some with severe health problems, some facing foreclosure, some looking for shidduchim.
The greatest pleasure is in helping someone. If one has extra time, why not earn a little money tutoring and give it to a family in need. Why not play with your kids, or help them with homework? If you are a scientist, you know there is an infinite amount we don’t know and diseases we can’t yet cure. Go read another paper or textbook. Cure a disease someone is suffering with.
Understand that as physically challenging as it is to abstain from your tayvos, it is far more phsyically challneging to be born with a handicap or have a disease for which there is no relief. Count your blessings, and realize what a gift good health is. You can accomplish anything you want almost if you have health. Nobody stands in your way from becoming the biggest expert in your field to whom all others turn for advice and are willing to pay for it. Go write a book or artice for a journal demonstrating your expertise. Become the head of a chssed organization. Make shidduchim. What is stopping you? If you have health, don’t squander it by wasting time, and be forgotten forever. If you want to preserve your name for future generations to remember, then accomplish something worthwhile. Don’t be your own worst enemy. Successful people in any field are masmidim. Bill Gates slept on the floor of his high school’s lab for years.
I find that motivational mussar is far more effective than threats about punsihments.July 29, 2012 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #889052
I must add a comment here, agreeing with some, challenging others.
The man who indulges in the inappropriate sights on the internet is NOT cheating on his wife. He is seeking some additional thrills to satisfy a taavah. His behavior has NOTHING to do with his wife, not her behavior towards him, not her nagging, not her appearance, nor their marital life together. However, the wife who discovers her husband with any such interests will understandably feel that he was cheating on her. But that does NOT put the onus of work on the wife. Rather, it is the sole responsibility of the husband to address his problem, the needed behavior change, and the character work to change him internally so that these taavos do not rule over him. Wife needs the guidance to support her husband through the work he needs to do to reclaim his status as the spiritual head of household.
Besides rare exceptions, the Rov has little to contribute to this. Most Rabbonim will either side with the husband, making light of the issue, prescribing a shiur of Chofetz Chaim or something otherwise holy but missing the point completely. Others will side with the wife, suggesting prisha, ultimatums, etc. That is why it is obvious to many that Rabbonim do not have much of a role in addressing marital issues, and certainly not most issues in the realm of mental health. In marital dilemmas, playing the role of the impartial is critical in bring about resolution of the problem. Doing so is the product of training, which the average Rov does not have.July 29, 2012 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #889053
shlishi: Or i must have a better wife that values my feelings and consideration than some anonymous people in a forum.July 29, 2012 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #889054
im gonna go with anonymous on this one.July 29, 2012 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #889055
It’s impossible to sufficiently stress the importance of speaking to a Rov before anything.July 30, 2012 12:28 am at 12:28 am #889056
Ohr Chodesh: I assume you meant “It’s impossible to sufficiently stress the importance of speaking to your spouse before anything.”July 30, 2012 3:18 am at 3:18 am #889057
far east -“health- your nice little study on smoking is not comparable to an internet porn addiction. Smoking is a chemical addiction, while looking at bad things is a mental addiction (although i will give you that it is also chemical but not the same as smoking). Additionally, the subjects in your study didnt have a “next to nothing” chance of quitting, i believe it was more than 7 percent who did quit on their own. Considering smoking is the stronger addiciton, kal vchaomer i would assume more then 7 percent of people are able to quit the internet addiction on their own. Further study is definitely needed”
Maybe, I didn’t make myself clear. There are no studies about internet addiction regarding this that I know of, so I had to use smoking, even if they aren’t the same. The % wouldn’t be much more even though there isn’t a physical addiction. And 7% is next to nothing if you’re striving to close to 100% to stop addiction.
I trained a little bit with narcotic addiction and the physical addiction part is easy to cure -it’s the mental/psychological addiction that’s the hard part. The same would be true with internet addiction -that’s why I suggested getting professional help. This has a much greater chance at being successful than the spouse holding the guy’s hand and telling him -“C’mon, you can do it!”July 30, 2012 3:34 am at 3:34 am #889058
yeshivishsocrates -“Your supercilious and sanctimonious attitude is so inordinately offensive im surprised that any of your posts are not deleted. I keep stressing this and you persevere, this is not personal, i dont know you at all so i have no reason to be arguing on any plane other than the intellectual one. For some odd reason, you persist with your insecure denigration.”
I persist; but it doesn’t have anything to do with insecurity.
I just don’t like pseudo-intelligence. You have presented an argument based on a utopian world. Your gist is basically – “It’s the woman’s responsibilty to stop this.”
You have not even brought one real account/example where this has worked even one time, but you keep insisting that you are right.
If you want even a little bit of credence that anything you post is even remotely logical -how about bringining some proof?
“The fact that someone you know succeeded with an ultimatum is likely to be in spite of the fact that an ultimatum and probably not because of. Ultimatums are horrible ideas within relationships and promote division – not unity.”
You missed my point -an ultimatum isn’t the first thing you try, but if all else has failed, sometimes an ultimatum will work.
Ignoring his behavior, even not from a Frum point of view, is the worse thing for the marriage.July 30, 2012 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #889059
Your statement, while it sounds like you want to patronize the talmidei chachomim of our time, based on ??? ?? ???? ??, is quite scary. I explained exactly why the Rov is NOT the person to approach when there is a problem lkke this. The matters of health have already been handed off to doctors, as we know, ???? ????? ???? ????? ??????. This includes mental health. In fact, we are told that a ???? should approach a ??? for the purposes of davening for him. There is no Torah precedent to considering a ??? a doctor.
One can respect Torah and its ?????? immensely, but not seek their advice to repair one’s car or install an air conditioner. My extensive experience with rabbonim is that they might mean well, but few have the talents and skills to provide useful guidance in situations involving addictions, mental illnesses, and marital discord. I don’t fault them. I do fear those who blindly seek advice from someone who does not really know the answers. There are dangerous pitfalls. The truly smart Rov knows his limits, and refers those seeking his advice to those who are more skilled to offer it.July 30, 2012 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #889060
Little you know: Interpersonal relationships is NOT a “mental health issue”. When you get into a fight with your friend, do you take him to a doctor (of mental health)? Same when you get into a fight with your spouse. You go to a talmid chochom with very much experience in Shalom Bayis issues. A therapist may also be recommended by said talmid chochom, if he deems so beneficial to the particulars of the situation. But even then one must be extremely cautious as towhich therapist one utilizes, as MANY are most capable of doing significantly more damage than good (partially as a result of their “training” based on secular lack of values towards the institution of marriage and partially as a result of their own inadequecies.)July 30, 2012 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #889061
You go to a talmid chochom with very much experience in Shalom Bayis issues.
Which wasn’t done here. She went to an unknown “Gadol”, who may or may not have any experience in the issues.
A big problem is when the family doesn’t have a “rov” with whom both sides feel comfortable. My Rov has told me that he will not discuss shailos that may affect shalom bayis without both sides present, let alone actual shalom bayis issues.July 30, 2012 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #889062
bitzzz – Excellent post.July 30, 2012 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #889063
There certainly are therapists who can damage. There are rotten apples in every bushel. However, very, very few rabbonim have the extensive experience with shalom bayis issues you expect, and that makes the average Rov, unless you know that he is the exception, NOT qualified to advise or direct. Any decent therapist knows their areas of expertise. If they do not have the experience to work with addictions, they redirect referrals to someone that does. Same goes for any other area. Being mesader kiddushin at a chuppah does NOT qualify to give advice on marital issues. And I proclaim loudly, the same goes for chosson and kallah teachers, who have racked up horrendous records of ruining marriages if they are asked for advice after the marriage.
I once asked a well recognized and respected Dayan about a certain chosson teacher. Once identifying who it was, he turned and spit on the floor. He said to me, “You know of a few cases of casualties of this man. I know of many dozens.”
Smicha qualifies one to pasken shailos. It goes without saying that there has been shimush by veteran and seasoned poskim. Now, please tell me, what qualifies that Rov, big talmid chochom, etc., to counsel anyone about anything? Training? Shimush? Any Rov challenged with a problem will want to help. If he believes he knows what to do, though with no experience, he runs a risk of harming equivalent to a grocer practcing medicine and surgery.
I direct you to the peirush of the Ramban on Bava Kama daf 87. (Hard to find – it is the only piece of Ramban on Bava Kama and thus missing in most sets of Ramban on Shas.) He is clear that practicing any form of health care without proper training is assur. I await your reply after you have reviewed that Ramban.July 30, 2012 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #889064
ohr chodesh -“Little you know: Interpersonal relationships is NOT a “mental health issue”. When you get into a fight with your friend, do you take him to a doctor (of mental health)? Same when you get into a fight with your spouse. You go to a talmid chochom with very much experience in Shalom Bayis issues. A therapist may also be recommended by said talmid chochom, if he deems so beneficial to the particulars of the situation. But even then one must be extremely cautious as towhich therapist one utilizes, as MANY are most capable of doing significantly more damage than good (partially as a result of their “training” based on secular lack of values towards the institution of marriage and partially as a result of their own inadequecies.)”
Your post makes sense, but I want to stress part of your post which you didn’t.
“You go to a talmid chochom with very much experience in Shalom Bayis issues.”
This is true, you can go to one. But what you fail to mention is that most Rabbonim are not like this. There are actually very few who have experience in Sholom Bayis. OTOH, even though there are incompetent therapists, by and far most will do good by their clients and try to steer them in the right direction!July 30, 2012 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #889065
yitayningwut- thanks!:)July 30, 2012 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #889066
If you want anything to change, I think you are going to have to confront him. At the same time, there is no point in confronting him if he is going to feel like you are judging him, ashamed of him, or if he even just gets the impression that you think he isn’t likely to change. If you confront him and are seriously looking for thinks to improve then you are going to have to make him feel that you believe in him and want to be with him, and that you will be with him every step of the way while he works on breaking this habit. If he doesn’t feel this then there’s no point in confrontation, but I think that confrontation is the only chance things will improve for you, so what I’m really saying is that you should work on yourself and your own attitude so that you’ll able to confront him in this healthy and productive way. Bitzzz (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/when-your-spouse-gets-outed/page/4#post-395805) has already enumerated various practical applications of this.July 31, 2012 12:14 am at 12:14 am #889067
Ay health, i cant help but think you do it on purpose. Why do you persist in addressing the wrong points, stick to the material, pseudo intelligence or not. Just address what people say and if you think it’s pseudo intelligence, explain why, dont attack personally, its unbecoming.
It seems that i havent said it enough times because youre still misunderstanding. At no point did i put the burden of responsibility on the wife. I feel for her and dont envy her plight. I merely maintain that the problem can be solved between them and professional intervention is an unnecessary measure. I also stressed the importance of her being supportive and on his side in solving their shared problem. She shouldnt oppose him and shouldnt make ultimatums which will put pressure on their relationship.
finally, just because you claim it is not insecurity, does not make it so. Likewise for my accusations.
Hope youre having a wonderful day!July 31, 2012 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #889068
yeshivishsocrates -“It seems that i havent said it enough times because youre still misunderstanding. At no point did i put the burden of responsibility on the wife. I feel for her and dont envy her plight. I merely maintain that the problem can be solved between them and professional intervention is an unnecessary measure.”
Yes, you keep repeating this, but do you have any proof that your
theory will work? Your conjecture will only place undue pressure on the spouse that she’ll start thinking that she has to solve this problem. It’s not her problem and she doesn’t have to solve it!
“I also stressed the importance of her being supportive and on his side in solving their shared problem.”
This line makes sense, even though it’s not exactly shared.
“She shouldnt oppose him and shouldnt make ultimatums which will put pressure on their relationship.”
While she shouldn’t oppose him & make ultimatums from the git-go, this is an effective last resort measure. She doesn’t have to try to sweet talk him into trying to cold turkey, because even if your theories might work on a few, it would be a very small amount. This small group that it might work on is not enough to tell e/o to try your method. Therapy will work on many. She should spend her energy trying to get him into therapy. Whether she can convince him herself to go or she can get s/o else like a Rov or family members to do it, is not really revelant.
If after all this he still won’t listen, then she should give him an ultimatum. The ultimatum should be either go to therapy or I’m outta here. An ultimatum to cold turkey or I’m gone is not a good idea, because most can’t stop on their own! (I posted a case above where this did work, but I don’t recommend this ultimatum.)July 31, 2012 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #889069
Proofs in situations like these are meaningless. If i prove that someone succeeded in quitting the nocturnal adult entertainment through white knuckled perseverence, youd say it was in spite of the fact that he didnt seek help. If you prove that someone did quit with help, id just say that he could have also done it alone.
It all comes down to an understanding of the problem, i doubt either of us would venture a sharing of personal experience which would prove credibility and so, ive offered my opinion on the matter and i will offer it no more after this post. We have reached a stalemate, you think that one requires therapy to drop the issue, i maintain that no one does. I dont see this going anywhere but i look forward to being proved wrong.July 31, 2012 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #889070
Boys or Girls:
Stop the bickering. Most people with addictions lack the skills to stop without outside help. Have some people succeeded alone? Certainly. Would I recommend someone undertake that challenge alone? No. We must understand a few things about the mechanisms of addiction. Every addict, regardless of what the addiction is to, has undergone many episodes in which they really want to quit but cannot. Yes, more effort and consistency would work. But the addict does not have a reserve of those skills to tap. So they utilize the outside help.
Addiction is characterized by denial. The addict does not recognize the problem. This can take many different forms. Ask an addict in recovery about their own denial experiences, and brace yourself for some interesting revelations. Such are defense mechanisms. Until the addict encounters some really unpleasant situation (aka rockbottom), change is unexpected. It is the addict serious about recovery that actually reaches out. Often, another recovering person becomes the catalyst for the addict accepting help. Let’s say this in plain English. One of the most notorious diseases in which the illness itself convinces the person that he (or she) does not have it is addiction. This denial persists long into the entry into recovery, except that treatment and support group programs help the addict learn to introspect. One can learn to look inside oneself and even be critical of what one finds. This is a process, well known to our master baalei mussar in which one needs to continually make a cheshbon hanefesh so that they can invest in tikun hamiddos (described in the first page of Mesilas Yeshorim as the primary purpose of one’s existence).
I don’t quite care whether there is a professional therapist involved. If the person succeeds (a long shot), I’ll be there to cheer. If he/she fails (which is the better bet), the professionals still exist and will be available.July 31, 2012 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #889071
yeshivishsocrates -“Proofs in situations like these are meaningless. If i prove that someone succeeded in quitting the nocturnal adult entertainment through white knuckled perseverence, youd say it was in spite of the fact that he didnt seek help. If you prove that someone did quit with help, id just say that he could have also done it alone.”
I’m not looking for absolute proof. What I want from you is even one real case that this has worked and then we can argue about which way will be more successful. Without even one case of cold turkey – how do you know this is even a real possibility, not just a utopian theory?August 1, 2012 6:07 am at 6:07 am #889072
to really smileMember
BusterCrown: Having been in a similar situation about a year ago, I really feel for you and wish I could be there to give you the chizuk that I so desperately needed when I was in that position. B”H, things on my end have vastly improved, so you should know that there IS hope (although obviously every situation is different). If you are interested, and the mods allow it, I would love to be in contact with you via e-mail (so it can remain anonymous) so that I could share my experience with you. In any case, wishing you much hatzlocha and strength in this nisayon…
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