July 11, 2012 4:23 am at 4:23 am #604070
Who do you think always sticks to the left?July 11, 2012 5:25 am at 5:25 am #888281
I’m only sticky when it’s hot & humid outside. Left, right, front, back, top, bottom – I always stick.July 11, 2012 5:32 am at 5:32 am #888282
Anybody more liberal than me is an extreem Leftist and anybody less liberal thanm e is an extreme Rightist.July 11, 2012 11:53 am at 11:53 am #888283
In terms of the political spectrum, I don’t really think anyone here does (does YonasanW post in the coffee room?).
As far as halachically, I think any names being given would be said in a derogatory sense, but there are two or three who would be proud of it. If nothing else, I’m betting at some point the Wolf will mention how he is mechalel shabbos and therefore passul for davening for the amud or something like that, along with an amusing anecdote about his wife. PBA will ask, in jest of course, how could he know any stories about his wife, and Wolf will answer that since he is a rasha, he is allowed to talk to his wife. Aries (or possibly Queen Bee) will make some sort of joke about the wife clearly being right in the story, and Health will pick up the ball and run with it about some “clearly feminist agendas that have no place in our Torah world!!!!!!!!!!!”. By that point, Zeeskite (I think – I could be wrong) will ask the mods to please [close] the thread, as there is no to’eles in it. Jothar will agree, because nothing compromises identifying information like mentioning that you are married and hey, that could give it all away. And after going through all of the dissenting opinions, I think we’ll all agree that Baal Habooze has the best strategy.
And in two years, this thread will be bumped.July 11, 2012 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #888284
JHF, 🙂July 11, 2012 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #888285
I’m pretty far to the left on just about everything, except for foreign affairs / defense. The western world needs strong military forces and strong and effective intelligence agencies to deal with the threats facing it. Decisions such as the one recently made in the UK reduce the size of the Army from 102,000 to 82,000, and the fact that the Royal Navy has 0 aircraft carriers now, will soon lead to the UK losing the Falklands, because when the Argentinians invade again, there simply won’t be anybody to send there to fight back, as was done in 1982. The same applies to all other European countries and to the US as well.
Aside from these affairs, though, I am decidedly left-wing regarding anything else: economy, education, health care, transportation, international cooperation, environment, personal freedoms…
And I’m not going to vote for any party that goes against my beliefs in both issues (ie, defense/national security and the rest). Meaning I have never in my life found a party I can vote for with full confidence, and probably never will – though in the UK, Labor seems not to be too bad (they oppose the cuts to the military, which the Conservatives are carrying out).July 11, 2012 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #888286
By that point, Zeeskite (I think – I could be wrong) will ask the mods to please [close] the thread, as there is no to’eles in it.
Are you sure about that? If I am right, Zeeskite is as much a ?? as Poppa and The Wolf!July 11, 2012 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #888287
Let’s what ?!?July 11, 2012 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #888288
I protest, the posters you mentioned are not Leitzanim, they have a sense of humor however they do not fall into the catagory of Leitzonim.July 11, 2012 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #888289
Gatesheader, like you I’m pretty far to the left on many issues, though in my case the exception is Israel (I’m also moderate/slightly-conservative on some social issues like gay rights or abortion), on which I see eye to eye with people like British writer Melanie Phillips. I think we need a good military, but the US military is too big and expensive, with useless bases all over the world. I don’t want my country to be an imperial power, forcing or pressuring various countries throughout the world to conform to its ideas and economic interests. That’s the main problem with US-Israel relations — the US acts like an imperial power, trying to force Israel to do what it wants. This leads to bad decisions, like the Gaza withdrawal.July 11, 2012 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #888290
i think im a moderate. Conservatives accuse me of being too liberal, and liberals accuse me of being to conservativeJuly 11, 2012 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #888292
Charlie hall (he hasn’t been around though)
in absence YonasanW (not sure if he posts here though)July 11, 2012 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #888293
SAM is liberalJuly 11, 2012 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #888294
2 or 4?July 12, 2012 12:02 am at 12:02 am #888295
choppy: And how do you know about sam4321. You know a lot for a new poster.July 12, 2012 1:17 am at 1:17 am #888296
Getzel: I don’t know what what liberal means. I’m fairly conservative politically and, as I’ve said many times before on here, I don’t believe in Hashkafa. Being forced to defend “left-wing” Shittos because there are many here who attack them unfairly does not make me a “liberal”, which you clearly intended as an insult.July 12, 2012 2:59 am at 2:59 am #888297
AREN’T THE MODs MODERATE???
If not them, who else?July 12, 2012 4:05 am at 4:05 am #888298
Song of BlessingParticipant
whats the difference between right and left? as far as I know looking to my right or left always depends on which direction I’m standing.
Yes I’m joking but really think about it…July 12, 2012 5:49 am at 5:49 am #888299
Song: yup! New rules: If you want to walk up te stairs, stay on the right side. If you are going down the stairs, stay on your left side. Makes sense no? (not really new! well, as new as Wayside School!)
SiDi™July 12, 2012 6:01 am at 6:01 am #888300
Song of BlessingParticipant
but that still doesn’t make a difference coz it doesn’ t matter which part of the stairs you’re standing on it matters which direction ur going 😀
o n the stairs rules is old.. we used to have to do that in school…July 12, 2012 6:53 am at 6:53 am #888301
SiDi is a Mugworm Griblick.July 12, 2012 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #888302
Is SiDi Eric Fry,Ovens, or Bacon?July 30, 2012 9:11 am at 9:11 am #888303
when im not in my right mind my left gets pretty crowdedJuly 30, 2012 10:19 am at 10:19 am #888304
gregaaron: what did you call me?? 🙂
moski: when I get off the 19th floor, I’ll let you know!
(BTW, I don’t like bacon fried or made in the oven. I also don’t like Eric with my bacon!)
What would YOU do if you had a ear on top of your head?!June 13, 2017 1:03 am at 1:03 am #1294766
And who’s now?June 13, 2017 8:06 am at 8:06 am #1294777
gregaaron- well it was five years not two but close enough.June 13, 2017 10:50 am at 10:50 am #1294944
Getzel -thanks so much for bumping this! that post made my day!December 13, 2017 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #1427302
GadolhadorahDecember 14, 2017 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1427354
I forgot!!!! Where am I supposed to stand?!?December 14, 2017 2:14 am at 2:14 am #1427373
☢️ 🚭 ☣️ Rand0m3x 🧠🕴️🎲Participant
What about Lesschumras?December 14, 2017 10:37 am at 10:37 am #1427392December 14, 2017 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1427646
Proud to be Socially/Politically Liberal, Fiscally Conservative and religiously Torah true……………..December 14, 2017 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1427685
if nothing goes right, then go left…December 17, 2017 7:30 am at 7:30 am #1428307
Actually, joseph, I’m only “left” because you’re so far to the right. I’m actually pretty center. (And I say that by comparing my religious practices to those I know to the right and to the left.)December 17, 2017 9:55 am at 9:55 am #1428326
takah: That’s a oft-heard response from MO/DL. The only way to define MO/DL as “centrist” (a common self-definition), is to include the non-frum in their consideration of “left/liberal”. Because within the frum spectrum MO/DL are the left-wing flank. Any further left is outside the frum world.December 17, 2017 10:11 am at 10:11 am #1428335
Right, Joseph. Your sweeping generality must be true because He knows you can’t possibly be an extremistDecember 17, 2017 10:20 am at 10:20 am #1428342
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Any further left is outside the frum world.
Rav Gifter made this point regarding a classification made by Rabbi Norman Lamm. I’m not sure how you would know to apply it to TM, though.December 17, 2017 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1428616
Mazal tov to Joseph! He finally agreed that Modern Orthodox is considered frum! He wrote “Because within the frum spectrum MO/DL are the left-wing flank.”. So he finally considers MO to be within the frum spectrum!December 17, 2017 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1428484
Farshteit zich that my previous comment was speaking in broad terms rather than individually to TM. That said, TM self-identifies as MO/DL, and as mentioned MO/DL in the broad sense is the left-wing flank of frum Judaism (which is the only Judaism.) This, of course, discounts OO since a) OO self-identifies as MO and more importantly b) the rest of Orthodoxy (including the rest of MO) considers OO to be non-Orthodox/non-frum, much in the same way Reform “Judaism” is not considered to be Judaism by Orthodoxy and J4J is not considered to be Jews or Judaism by all Jews, despite both of them claiming the mantle of the name Judaism.
Now within MO you have the so-called LWMO and the RWMO. But LWMO is virtually synonymous with OO, which the description in the previous paragraph applies to. That all being said, broadly speaking MO/DL is as far left you can go within Judaism and still be said to be frum. Within MO, individually of course, there are certainly some more to the left and others less to the left.December 18, 2017 1:28 am at 1:28 am #1429107
I hope I’m not triggering anyone, I would think that a Yid with values taken from the Torah would generally align with the Conservative parties in his or her respective countries. Torah is very much fiscally conservative, and obviously even more so, socially conservative.
Compassion doesn’t in any way force one to be liberal, nor does it negate conservatism. Though we are obligated to give Tzedakah, we don’t believe in pooling all the wealth together, or various redistribution schemes.
Mans property belongs neither to him, nor to the Government, rather all that we own belongs to Hashem. And Hashem requires us to give Tzedakah. We are merely “masters” of our material property, hence the fact that in Lashon HaKodesh there’s no word for “Own” or “Owner”, it’s Baal HaBayis, because we are just the masters of it.
Torah recognizes man’s ability to rise above his circumstances, and doesn’t view a person as a mere victim of his fate.
Torah demands hard work, and values the fruits of one’s own labor; “Odom L’omol Yivaled”, “Y’gia Kapecha Ki Sochal” ‘”Odom Rotze B’kav Shelo”, “Nahmah Dichsufa”, and many more.
Abortion on demand is obviously prohibited by the Torah, for Yidden and Goyim, and so is SSM and all that comes along with it.
As Yidden, we have a duty to educate people in, and uphold the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, which would entail voting for the party that closest resembles what Hashem would want.
Feel free to argue below:)December 18, 2017 7:33 am at 7:33 am #1429124
SHY, you are correct regarding American conservatism. In fact, Orthodox Jews are taking an increasing role in American conservative politics. However, “conservative” is a relative term. Brezhnez and Co., for example, were right described as conservatives. Historically European conservative parties have at least bordered on antisemitism. This was also true of some on the American right pre-William Buckley, who purged them from the conservative movement. Of course, once classical liberalism became established those who supported it came to be considered conservative.
As for property, after the beracha it is ours. Indeed, Chazal say that one who steals someone’s property steals his soul. According to Rav Kook the Torah bars selling nachalot permanently because just as Am Yisrael is spiritually connected to Eretz Yisrael and can only flourish here so too is the relationship of an individual Jew to his nachala. This is so strong that according to Kabbala is Reuven dies owing money to Shimon and Shimon does not forgive him (the power to forgive shows that it is his) they both have to keep coming back until the debt is paid.December 18, 2017 9:33 am at 9:33 am #1429132
“I would think that a Yid with values taken from the Torah would generally align with the Conservative parties in his or her respective countries. Torah is very much fiscally conservative, and obviously even more so, socially conservative.”
Just the opposite.
The torah is diametrically opposed to free market capitalism. The torah opposes lending with interest, competition, how much profit can be made, as you correctly point out even basic ownershp is somewhat limited, There are rules for how long you can sell land houses etc. (Yes there are ways around these issurim, but that doesnt change the fact that the Torah assers them.
As for “socaial conseratism” compare how many times it says support the Ger and almana. Yes mishkav zachar is assur. But my Torah places more of an emphasis on the former.
Neither party gets their values from the torah, and of course both have their flaws. but if you are voting based on which “would entail voting for the party that closest resembles what Hashem would want” Youd have to vote Democrat generally speaking. .December 18, 2017 10:13 am at 10:13 am #1429191
The idea one should work Hard and it leads to salvation is not a jewish idea, that is a puritan idea. Did you ever hear of the Protestant Work Ethic? that comes from Puratinism.
The Puratains belived if you didnt work, you should starveDecember 18, 2017 10:26 am at 10:26 am #1429234
Avram in MDParticipant
Neither political party has a Torah perspective, and to try and wedge the Torah into the Republican or Democratic platform is wrong and dangerous.December 18, 2017 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1429325
ubiq, your comment lacks sense. None of the points you made support the idea to vote liberal/Democrat. The liberals/Democrats do not support illegalizing interest or even limiting competition like the Torah tells us to. In fact, using your own criteria you should definitely support Republicans since they are more in favor of not having strong anti-trust laws/enforcement whereas the Democrats support tougher anti-trust laws and breaking up or cracking down on companies that control too much of the market.
Anyways, I’m sure you noticed that Reform, Conservative and OO “rabbis” are strongly in favor of liberals/Democrats whereas Orthodox Rabbis are exactly the opposite, favoring conservatives/Republicans. Apparently you are throwing your lot with the R/C/OO.December 18, 2017 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #1429355
45 comments. Some humorous, some nasty/sarcastic.
I only speak for myself. I’m so far to the right religiously, my arm hits the ground. As far as treatment of women in the frum world goes, I am definitely on the left of center. NOBODY will tell me to move or get up from a seat on the bus because I’m female. And NOBODY has the right to tell women what they should wear (but they should use some common sense for their own safety.)
As for the worst offenders: charliehall is top of my list for being a Marxist. Gadolhadorah actually speaks some sense. Joseph…. well, what can I say except medicine has made great strides lately.
Chodesh Tov, Chanukah Sameach!December 18, 2017 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #1429367
My apologies I did not mean that the Democrats are completely in line with the Torah. In fact I explicitly said the opposite ” Neither party gets their values from the Torah, and of course both have their flaws”
My mentioning ribis, Onaas mamon, hasagas Gevul werent reasons to vote Democrat, rather they served to dispute this contention ” Torah is very much fiscally conservative,” I am not sure why this view is so widespread when it is so easily disputed. Furthermore as far as the Torah goes many forms of Tzedaka are legally binding. when we had a beis din, they would force people to leave over Peah, Maaser Ani. People separate this from economics for reasons that I dont fully understand. Halacha is all encompassing and governs all aspects of our lives including economic/business issues. Thus this line “” Torah is very much fiscally conservative,” is demonstrably false. that ids what I meant.
As for “Torah is … even more so, socially conservative.” That too is debatable. As mentioned no party is fully in line with the Torah. Yes, as I mentioned regarding Mishkav zachor The right wing is more in line with the Torah. and while important (it feels silly even saying that) The Torah , and more so neviim place much more of an emphasis on helping the downtrodden including Ger Yosom Almanah.
“Apparently you are throwing your lot with the R/C/OO.”
I cast my lot with the Ribono she Olam. you can throw in any label you want it wont change the Torah.December 18, 2017 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1429389
“The idea one should work Hard and it leads to salvation is not a jewish idea, that is a puritan idea. Did you ever hear of the Protestant Work Ethic? that comes from Puratinism.
The Puratains belived if you didnt work, you should starve”
Not sure that you saw anything that I referenced. And I’m not quite sure what you mean by “salvation”.December 18, 2017 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1429449
“And NOBODY has the right to tell women what they should wear”
Wrong. The Torah and Halacha tell women these mandatory Halachas what they may not wear. So does the Mechaber, a man, in Shulchan Aruch, as well as the men who wrote countless other Seforim HaKedoshim on these Jewish Laws.December 18, 2017 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1429422
I note with pride that the resident Troll and Trumpkopf in chief (AKA”poo little Joey” as his foul-mouthed hero would probably nickname him) classifies me as being mega OTD….both a religiously and politically “liberal” who Is mevazeh panim to the real CR gadolim…..thank you and kein yirbu…
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