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Why does the dating process have to be so difficult, with so many nuances and expectations….???? Wouldn’t it be easier for everyone to date how they see fit and not have to worry about every detail and if it fits into the social “norm” of the dating process?
Who decides the social norms? We do.
Some structure is good. Being ridiculously hung up on every little thing is bad.
We have let the dating process be taken out of the hands of the principal parties, the actual DATERS, and put it into the hands of shadchanim, parents, “resume” readers (and boy, do I DETEST that word – it’s not a job interview!), endless “researchers” (there’s another word I can’t stand – you’re not doing a paper for class), and several others. Instad of encouraging young men and women who presumably are old enough to be getting married, actually be respopnsible for themselves, we have a generation of people who are being infantilized on every level.
They do not know how to socialize in a normal way, to carry on a normal conversation with someone of the opposite gender. They need “coaches” and “dating mentors” to help them “navigate the process” (not my words, by the way). This was UNHEARD of when I was dating some 40 years ago.
We are not allowing our kids to grow up, either, in a realistic way. When they actually DO get married, they often have no idea of what the real world of married life, especially where finances are concerned. It is a huge shock to many young couples when they discover the real cost of living.
There ARE too many unrealistic expectations in the dating process, but IMO the worst problem is that the daters expect the process to go smoothly because “on paper” everything looks great. Well, we don’t marry paper, we marry a person, who is not two-dimensional. Only taking the time to get to know someone, gives one a fighting chance of making the right decision, though there are no guarantees. Also, people have to start making the effort to give a shidduch a chance, even when it does not appear so perfect on paper. That was my two cents. (Off the soapbox, now).
why do we date like we do?
To get married, because we don’t wish to emulate neither the previous nor the new pope to be.
oomis, the system is approved by the gedolim and if that isn’t enough to end the discussion, please also remember that “dating” is based on talking between genders, which everywhere else is assur. It is allowed in shidduchim only because it makes possible the mitzvah of pru urvu and the continuation of the Jewish people. Otherwise, where’s the heter for kosher yungerleit to go to hotel lobbies, sports places, restaurants etc?
LJ that wasn’t his question. He was asking why everyone gets so hung up on finding a fairytale that they forget that they’re marrying a human being.
I personally didn’t ask any of these questions. When I spoke to the shadchan I told her who I was and I told her if she could find someone who has real plans toward achieving the same future as me, I’d be willing to date. And I refused to send a picture so I knew I wasn’t getting anyone more than 20 minutes away from my house.
LJ that wasn’t his question. He was asking why everyone gets so hung up on finding a fairytale that they forget that they’re marrying a human being.”
Thanks, and FTR, I am female.
To address LJ’s comments, We had wonderful Gedolim when I was growing up, Rav Moshe ZT”L for one. Shidduchim were not conducted as they are today, and we had FAR fewer unmarried men and women in those years. The process was more normal, people didn’t check things out to death, they went out if someone was suggested to them by a friend or a relative, or if they met them at Shul, in college, at singles events that were actually fun to attend and ENCOURAGED the mixing of the frum singles.
We do not live in the society of two thousand years ago.We live in a time when men and women are in the workforce together, on public streets together, and in other situations where they will be SOMEWHERE together. Deal with it. We have to learn how to be tzniusdig on ALL circumstances of life, not by pretending that the opposite gender does not exist, but by learning kosher, proper, ways to interact. That is not happening today, as our yungerleit (and not everyone is Kollel yungerleit ftr), are unable to sustain normal conversations with women EVEN for dating purposes. I might want to eat a cheeseburger, but it is forbidden to me. So even though I smell that wonderful odor wafting from MacDonald’s, I am NOT going in there, even if I am RAVENOUS because I have not eaten all day. A little self-control goes a long way.
As to hotel lobbies, personally as a Modern Orthodox Machmir, I think that those are TERRIBLE places to go for a date. Do you have any idea what pritzus goes on in hotels, that could be happening in front of our young people’s very eyes or even just the knowledge that it might be going on??? I am not being sarcastic. My daughter was taken on such a date, and witnessed what was clearly a pickup. THAT’S where we want our kids to date, rather than to go out for a slice of pizza, if they cannot afford dinner in a restaurant? And do you really believe we need a heter for someone to go out to a restaurant, sport event, etc. if they are not on a date? OK, I respect your opinion.
Shidduchim were not conducted as they are today, and we had FAR fewer unmarried men and women in those years.
We had far fewer people altogether.
The more important question to ask, though, is whether there are, TODAY (because there are too many variables to fairly compare different eras), a higher percentage of unmarried men and women among the group that uses the shidduch system, or among the group which uses self service.
The answer, oomis, is not in your favor.
Oomis +1.
DY, I don’t have the statistics but out of the people that I know there are pretty much the same amount of married and unmarried girls/boys who follow shidduchim as the poster discussed, and those who date more like oomis is saying. I will say that my friends who followed the shidduch rules much stricter, dealt with much more frustration, dated way more guys , got turned down a lot more, and many were in shidduchim much longer.
Both my parents and my husbands parents, granted they are more modern them the folks on this site, both met each other at frum singles events run by either their shuls or JCC type community centers. That’s how many of my parents friends met their spouses.
My husband has a friend who got married bH last year, but he dated for 7 years! He had resumes piling up, went out all the time but was awkward felt that the girls weren’t for him, were immature, had no social skills, and they were both uncomfortable in the environment expected of him. He ended up going to college, relaxed a bit, he is still a frum great guy, learns and works, but he ended being set up by a friend ( shock) and they dated a bit and it was great. I know that texted after sometime and didn’t use their shadchan past I believe 3 or 4 dates. They were able to be adults without their parents and shadchan overseeing every detail of their lives. They are happily married parents now. My husband and I had a similar situation. Not everything works for everyone and I feel like shidduchim have to room for error or adjustment and no one seems to realize that it’s not one size fits all.
Joe – LOL as usual.
DY: Because the Agudah no longer has Kosher “Mixers” to allow people to freely find their Bashert in a medium that is supervised. UWS is not a Rayiah, as many there are not looking to get married (certainly not with as much urgency as the yeshiva world, where a girl who is not married has no place in society).
Oomis: another point in your favor is that at these lounges, what happens when the guy likes the looks of the girl in the next booth/table over?
oomis- id like to point out that ive heard from big rabbonim that the taaveh of the times back then wasnt for hefkerus and pritzus as today. society in general was less focused on all things sexual, and although people havent changed, the societal norms, and therefore the degree to which we must go to counteract them, indeed have. that requires some sort of system to keep young people within acceptable boundaries. there you go.
GAW,
I don’t know what you want to bring out about the Agudah singles events.
The fact that in the MO crowd many do not wish to get married is, to me, the biggest condemnation if their “system”.
MR,
It’s pointless to try to make generalizations from a few people you know. There is a far higher percentage of unmarried people in the MO community then in the yeshivish community.
To blame the number of singles on matchmaking is patently ridiculous; the chassidim have a lower rate of singlehood than anyone, and have the strictest system.
I don’t know what you want to bring out about the Agudah singles events.
The fact that in the MO crowd many do not wish to get married is, to me, the biggest condemnation if their “system”.
Al Rishon Rishon:
The Agudah singles events should be replicated. Both boys and girls should know they can be “forward” with each other, noting that it is for Tachlis only. Part of the problem of the shidduch system is that even when they are dating, they only stick their toe in. After all, everyone knows that taking to the opposite gender is Assur, and it is very difficult to change that attitude.
I have heard that in Lakewood, they tell the boys not to call the girl by her name until you are almost ready to get engaged! My Hadracha has it the the dating process is meant to get closer to the girl. First names SHOULD be used, as that is what creates a relationship. (I could add a cheeky comment regarding Bochim in Lakewood not being interested in a relationship with the girl, but with the shver and his wallet, but I’ll let that be).
As far as your second point, which came first? Does “Yeshivish” society value marriage becuse without it girls have no place or as an inherent value? Do other societies not value “making a family” because they disvalue it, or due to the hardships it creates?
As a family man, I don’t disagree with you, but I do see the other side. I know many “UWS type” who come from “yeshivish” families but are straight out scared to start a family, together with all of the achrayis that comes with it. They THEREFORE move to the UWS, where they can be accepted as an individual.
I don’t envy their choices. Either live a life in poverty, living off others and Tzedaka until they die (which is the Israeli Charaidi approach), or settling down in their early thirties and having fewer children. Planning would have gotten them out of the mess, but high schools and Sems (as well as Rosh Yeshivas) don’t encourage planning. to paraphrase Chazal: Ezehu Chacham, Haroeh that you (Bezras Hashem) will have to pay tuition in 5 years.
did he take you to manhattan
For my own curiosity, is “going to Manhattan” good or bad?
I think the OP is mistaken, as are many of the replies. Shidduchim were always done the way the Chassidim do it (there is nothing “Chassidish” about that method). There always was a Shadchan, checking information, etc. No “mixers”.
We have tried for some reason to “adapt” the old way to the American “dating” system, and have the mess that we have. The blame should be put on the “dating” part, not the Shadchanim or the information part. That part hasn’t changed.
Unfortunately the MO crowd thinks that things are supposed to be the way “it used to be” in America 60 years ago. Those who now a little history outside the mess that was Orthodoxy in America before the War, know otherwise.
The problem with the shidduch/dating world is our attempt to apply a “best fit” practice to something that nothing will really fit.
In an ideal world, dating won’t really exist. Everyones’ parents and rebbeim will know them nearly perfectly. Dates will be determined via parents speaking with the other set of parents. The guy and girl will meet for an hour, or so, and the shidduch is decided.
In close knit Chassidish communities, criticize them as you may, this actually works out very well as the people in those communities are generally more products of the community than your average Yeshiva Bachur or Bais Yaakov girl. Meaning, that once a Chassidishe boy or girl is adequately described, you can get a good enough sense of what type of person they are and what type of person they would be good for. In most communities, though, this is far from the case as there is much more variation in what people are doing and want to do with their lives along with variations on Hashkafa.
Unfortunately, due to that high amount of variation, it’s not always so obvious what a guy/girl needs and what they want to do with their lives. This requires a ridiculous amount of investigation and interview which often goes way further than required leading to the problems we face today.
(On a side note, I’ve rarely heard of the legendary boy who wants a Barbie doll in a Bais Yaakov uniform. They don’t really exist as much as people allege they do in most Yeshivas. The mother who wants a Barbie doll as a daughter-in-law is a whole nother ball game)
Dear luv2Bjewish,
Many of us here empathize with your discomfort with all the rules and restrictions. But as The Wolfman intimated above, if you buy into the system, you can’t really complain about the rules.
There are other legitimate systems out there, and don’t let anyone make you feel bad about them. If the yeshivish-shidduch system isn’t to your liking, try a different one. B’hatzlachah.
OOmis
To be mekatzer the world changed a lot since Rav Moshe was niftar and the quality of boys/girls/families have dropped and therefore a lot more research is necessary to make sure you are getting a physically, mentally and spiritually healthy shidduch for your child.
Gaw- the point of dating is to figure out if two people can build a marriage and home together, to continue passing on the torah and mesorah we’ve lived with for a very very long time. yes, love and and the relationship shebo are integral factors in this being possible, but they are heichee timtzas, not the endgame. to that end, we date with a whole bunch of rules, to allow for a setting in which to best make a decision about the other party. intentionally creating an atmosphere where hormones get involved clouds the vision of the two youngins, and allows for other cheshbonos, ones that may not be in line with the real reason your getting married. thats pshat in the name thing. and in case your answer is “well, i dont feel funny when i call a random girl by her first name”, these guys do/will.
“oomis- id like to point out that ive heard from big rabbonim that the taaveh of the times back then wasnt for hefkerus and pritzus as today. society in general was less focused on all things sexual, and although people havent changed, the societal norms, and therefore the degree to which we must go to counteract them, indeed have. that requires some sort of system to keep young people within acceptable boundaries. there you go. “
People have always had taivahs, do have taivahs, and always WILL have taivahs. BACK THEN was actually WHEN the unfettered taivah situation became more acceptable among a significant portion of the population. It was the Age of Aquarius after all.
I don’t believe that the demographic that uses the shidduch system as endorsed by the Gedolim today, are that exposed to the things you mention. Quite the contrary, they are not watching TV or movies (or so they claim), they do not read secular novels ro listen to secular music (again, so they claim). So exactly what influences are you talking about? People in the street? Non-Jewish or non-frum women (and even many frum women) dressed in pants, shorts, short skirts, and sleeveless shirts decades ago. The influences of today are in some ways less of a shock as society has become desensitized to much of it (to our everlasting shame). It was far worse to go from the innocence of the 50s to the Taivah revolution of the 60s and 70s. But the 70s were my dating years, and no one suggested dating with resumes and checking people out to death, and not allowing boys and girls to meet each other in healthy, wholesome environments.
I guess many of us will never see eye to eye on this very hot-button topic. That’s fine. Diversity of opinion is what makes life interesting.
oomis- again, i said people will always have the same biological makeup. thats a given. it does not matter if people do not read/watch/enjoy secular entertainment. they still pick up that society around them has taken a three letter word and made it the absolute goal and focus of society, whereas fifty or even 20 or 30 years ago, although people were into it, the focus of every song/movie/tv show etc. wasnt to talk about all things prust. i think this is clear, if youve ever watched a film from this year and 20 years ago. i honestly dont think there really is room for discussion. if you realy dont see a difference between the generations then you cant agree with me. i just dont understand how you could be so blind.
yes, love and and the relationship shebo are integral factors in this being possible, but they are heichee timtzas, not the endgame.
1: The relationship between a husband and wife is supposed to mirror that between us and the Ribbono shel Olam. One is supposed to have a relationship with their spouse (and that is the Tachlis, even without the ability to have children), not a cold cheshbon of “make babies and teach them charaidism”. I feel sorry for your spouse if you think that is the case.
and in case your answer is “well, i dont feel funny when i call a random girl by her first name”, these guys do/will.
2: That is precisely the problem. The sexualization of the name of someone who you are dating (as opposed to someone who is off limits, like someone else’s wife) is a simin of the hyper-sexualization in our (Yeshivish) society. Chazal did not treat women as sexual objects the way we do, and therefore did not have any issues when “the girls went out and danced in front of the boys” on the 15th of Av & Yom Kippur. It is bad enough that society around us is hyper-sexualized, do we have to bring it in to our society as well? If we treat things as normal, then they don’t become a reason for sinning.
Daas yochid, the source of your observation that most MO don’t want to get married?
One cannot, I think, base successful marriages on the notion that the principals can and should be carefully typecast, regimented, pigeonholed, manipulated, and choreographed to the huppa. Case study: a whole society appears to be trying it that way and is writhing in anguish.
In my opinion, typecasting and all the rest can work only as far as the huppa, and even then only if the principals are taught that they’re types and not people. Their resumes and investigation files don’t explain how they’ll cope with the deviations from type that each will display as time passes. And they will deviate, unless they’re still play-acting as though married life were a shidduch date. The “shpitz” who burns out at age 25. The eidel maidel who wants to join a gemara shiur. The haredi-lite bachur who turns to the Right. Everyone in this forum can add examples.
oomis – “I might want to eat a cheeseburger, but it is forbidden to me. So even though I smell that wonderful odor wafting from MacDonald’s, I am NOT going in there, even if I am RAVENOUS because I have not eaten all day. A little self-control goes a long way.”
The difference is, taiva for a treifus is ok. Taiva for arayos is not ok.
And I know how I would feel if my spouse said “I might want to lay with that man/woman, but it is forbidden to me. So even though I see that wonderful person/desire that wonderful person etc., I am NOT going to do it, even if I am DYING for him/her. A little self-control goes a long way.” That would be the end of our married life.
While it may be true that chassidim have a lower rate of singles, I wouldn’t say their method of dating is more successful. I have friends who are chassidish. I’ve heard from them many times how many chassidish couples are unhappy in their marriages, but won’t consider divorce because of the stigma attached to it in the community.
Some women also have a twisted view of what marriage should be. When my wife gave birth to our twins, she was next door to a chassidish woman who had also just had a baby. They used to talk a lot. The woman commented one day that she was so happy to be fulfilling the only purpose of her marriage properly. My wife asked her, “What do you mean, the only purpose? You think having babies is what your marriage is about?”
The woman replied, “Of course, what else would there be to marriage?”
“Well, how about a relationship between you and your husband?”
“No, that’s not the purpose of marriage. It’s only about having children!”
“So, when you get into your 40s and can no longer have children, you want your husband to divorce you and marry an 18 year old who can have more kids?”
“Of course not!”
“So there is more to it than having kids, right?”
“Umm…. I need to think about things some more.”
My wife told me she felt bad, and almost like she was “corrupting” the woman. I told her she was undoing the corruption that the woman had drilled into her since her childhood.
Dotnetter writes, “The difference is, taiva for a treifus is ok. Taiva for arayos is not ok.” Very well, but how does one (or a whole society) deal with it? Is it the answer to raise the young on continual distrust and rigid barriers?
The difference is, taiva for a treifus is ok. Taiva for arayos is not ok.
By Assering what Chazal were Mattir, you are creating more Taiyva for Arayos. As Shlomo HaMelech said in Mishlei:
??? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????
Naftush, perhaps not. I don’t pretend to know the answer. I was not dealing with the whole dating question at all.
My point in that post was just to explain why this taiva is different than all others and the idea of ‘Lets expose ourselves and our children to it and use that as a way to strengthen our self control’ does not apply.
I agree we need to arm ourselves and our children with self control so that we have the strength to overcome our taivos when we are exposed to the tuma’ah around us, but the tool is through other taivos. Not exposing ourselves to this taiva. Not by saying ‘let our young boys and girls go party together/go to school together/spend their lives together so they learn self control’.
Thats ‘Lifnei iver lo sitein michshal’ for children and ADULTS too!
Luv2bjewish– you’re first post is very vague about rules you mean, the only things you mention it is opening the door for her and going to manhattan.
Really? Is the world hung up on that?!? Are we really sooooo busy with that?!? I don’t think so. Maybe a single story here and there and yes on a date a girl mentioned to me about me not opening he door in a friendly way to which I responded that I thought it was strange to do to which she replied it doesn’t matter I like you anyway. These things don’t really make a difference if you guys like each other. (Btw I open the door for my wife all the time)
So go on a and date, be a mensch or a female mensch and stop worrying of we care abut silliness. Because it doesn’t matter what the world thinks it matters what you and your future date/spouse feel about each other.
A silly little nuance won’t stop a couple from liking each other.
OOMIS_ ” We had wonderful Gedolim when I was growing up, Rav Moshe ZT”L for one. Shidduchim were not conducted as they are today”
Jew werent always as great as thier gedolim, and it wasnt ok just beacause there were gedolim.
for example, in the early part of this century sheitels were not very common even amongst “frum” non chsidish jews in america. was that ok? no but that was a nissaayon on the time. there were rabbi from yeshivas in new york who were seen with their wives on coney island on the beach in beach atire, was that ok?
luv2Bjewish -“It is just frusturating that society gets hung up on every little detail – did he open the door, did he not, did he take you to manhattan (?!?), did she say this, wear this, do this!!!!! We get so hung up on the details that we dont focus on whats really supposed to be happening – seeing if the other person is compatible for marriage!”
I disagree with this comment. At one time these petty people were not most of the Charedim and even if nowadays they are most -there are still plenty of normal Charedim – that have their heads on their shoulders. And these people aren’t interested in these petty details. The reason that this way of thinking has become popular is because young people (& older people too) are scared to go against the tide. But foolishness is foolishness -if you won’t go out with s/o because they don’t always use silver on the Shabbos table or any other foolish reason -that’s your prob, not mine and I am happy they won’t go out with me. Life is Not about focusing on the little things. Unfortunately a lot of people do focus on little things, but our main focus should be on Yiddishkeit (Torah & Middos)!
GAW- while dating, they are off limits. everyone else hypersexualized everything in society, and if youre familiar with bochurim today, you would understand and know how the slightest trigger is still a trigger. it also diplays a level of heimishkeit that certain big people deem unappropriate at this point in a relationship.
With regard to your first point, i disagree. obviously i dont mean have kids and make them chareidim. i mean that the goal of our existence is to be mikadesh shem shomayim. you are digressing from the centrasl point of our argument which is whether or not factors that can cloud logical judgment should be introduced into a decision that is nearly entirely logical. for some reason you think that two people should develop taivos that preclude their ability to make an unbiased decision. you alone agree that a relationship with ones WIFE should be that of love etc., not with your date.
OOmis -“As to hotel lobbies, personally as a Modern Orthodox Machmir, I think that those are TERRIBLE places to go for a date. Do you have any idea what pritzus goes on in hotels, that could be happening in front of our young people’s very eyes or even just the knowledge that it might be going on??? I am not being sarcastic. My daughter was taken on such a date, and witnessed what was clearly a pickup. THAT’S where we want our kids to date, rather than to go out for a slice of pizza, if they cannot afford dinner in a restaurant? And do you really believe we need a heter for someone to go out to a restaurant, sport event, etc. if they are not on a date? OK, I respect your opinion.”
While you make some good points in your posts -I’ll address this part which I strongly disagree with.
I do think going to a hotel if you’re Not Chassidsh (home dating)is a good place to start. Yes it’s possible to see Untzinus things, but I don’t think that is as bad as starting a date in a casual mode. While maybe having a fun date is good for later on in a relationship -It Is Not good at the beginning. I feel you should not be Heimish with the date on the first few times. This IMHO is Pritzus. I don’t agree with what the MO crowd does! Esp. since many dates end after 1 or 2 times (in a decision of – not for me). A hotel setting is much more formal.
What is “Modern Orthodox Machmir”?
I have a feeling that the “Chumras” are straightforward halacha. Someone enlighten me.
WTY
“OOmis
To be mekatzer the world changed a lot since Rav Moshe was niftar and the quality of boys/girls/families have dropped and therefore a lot more research is necessary to make sure you are getting a physically, mentally and spiritually healthy shidduch for your child. “
WTY, I have a question. If you ask a rav if you can take an aspirin on Shabbos, he’ll say no . Why? Because we are afraid the person will grind up the medication. When you reply that times have changed and we take an aspirin from a bottle, the reply will be once a gazeria is established, we do not change.
Under that principle, how can you justify changes to dating ” because times have changed”?
I feel you should not be Heimish with the date on the first few times. This IMHO is Pritzus.”
OK. I don’t agree with you at all, but I respect your opinion.
What is “Modern Orthodox Machmir”?
I have a feeling that the “Chumras” are straightforward halacha. Someone enlighten me. “
You got me. It’s an expression I keep hearing from shadchanim, and is somewhat slightly more modern than Modern Yeshivish, from what I am told.
You could be right about the machmir part, but in this case they are not taking about chumrahs, but about being careful, even as they are MO, to follow the halacha. Maybe Modern Orthodox Makpid would be a better expression.
I don’t concur with the criticism of dating in hotel lobbies. I have gone on innumerable such dates, and have yet to ever see anything very inappropriate. It is usually a few business people sitting here and there, and occasionally a few tourists as well.
If you think there is much inappropriate going on, why don’t you go sit in the lounge at the Brooklyn Marriott tonight for a few hours and tell me what you see besides 15 dates.
PBA: didn’t like my post? It is inherently not Tzanuah to go “date watching”, which is what happens at these “lounges”. Go somewhere that you can concentrate on your own date.
PBA, perhaps you are right, but a treif hotel is still a treif hotel, and bars are still bars, and most lounges DO have people coming and going who are up to something our kids should not be witnessing on a date. JMO.
I emant to add, I also agree with Gavra about the “date watching” part.
I dunno oomis, maybe things are different now than they used to be. I urge you to go check out some of the popular manhattan lounges and see if there is anything so objectionable. Maybe go with your spouse for a nice night on the town. Try the rotating lounge in the top of the Marriott Marque, or the Waldorf.
lesschumras
Certain things are Halacha and certain things are common sense that requires us to make changes based on a changed world and changed realities. Times have changed and certain things change along with that. Of course Halacha doesn’t change but maybe the way we apply certain Halachos can change based on different times and circumstances.
gavra_at_work -“It is inherently not Tzanuah to go “date watching”, which is what happens at these “lounges”. Go somewhere that you can concentrate on your own date.”
I personally have never done this, neither do I know anybody who has. Most hotels the lounges are quite dark and usually not that crowded where one is on top of another. While you can see other couples -almost never are you up close and personal to them. This term “date watching” is more appropiate for MO dating, eg. a pizza shop – brightly lit and e/o close together.
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