Why no גזל שינה?

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  • #1633582

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I was reading the OU daf hakashrus in shul tonight and in it it quotes the (משנה ברורה (תרע״ב י״א which says if you come home and everyone is asleep you should wake someone up to light

    Why isn’t that גזל שינה and therefore a מצוה הבאה בעבירה?

    #1633671

    Joseph
    Participant

    What if someone will sleep through zman tefila if you do not awaken them.

    #1633676

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    They have a חיוב to daven

    You have the חיוב of פרסומי ניסא

    Why can you wake someone up in order to fulfill your חיוב?

    #1633678

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Additionally,

    This is in the middle of the night so he’s going back to sleep

    By זמן תפילה I hope he isn’t and can be productive the rest of the day

    #1633714

    laskern
    Participant

    Could be if he wants him to wake him up ניחא ליה לאינש לעשות מצוה בגופו he is not taking the sleep away as the women want to be in the sukkoh to help the men.

    #1633719

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    When your mishpacha lights at home when you wont get home until very late, are the being motzei you? If yes, you dont need to wake anyone up. If they are not motzei you, the question stands, unless the halacha to wake someone up nly applies when you need to be motzei them, because they didnt light. In that case, of course wake them up, its for their benefit inherently, as otherwise they miss this mitzvah.

    Anyways, it is very possible that the entire way this mitzvah was set up by chazal, was without a problem of gezel shaina.

    #1633722

    Meno
    Participant

    I believe the purpose of waking people up in this case is not to be motzi them, but rather so that there is pirsumei nisa.

    #1633790

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Meno: While the inyan of Pirsumei Nisa is most frequently thought of in connection to the lighting of Hanukkah lecht, I recall learning that variations of the same inyan apply to the reading of the Megillah on Purim, the recitation of the Hallel on yom tovim and drinking the arba kosos at the Pesach Seder. In each case, would you make a judgement in each case (aka nudge the guy next to you in shul if he fell asleep at the end of chazaras hashatz for shachris before moving on to Hallel or your zeida’s falling asleep at the end of a long seder before the baracha for the fourth kos?)

    #1634450

    Meno
    Participant

    GH,

    You’re misunderstanding my point. I was responding to avreichamshlomo. I was just pointing out that the reason for waking someone up in this case is not in order to be motzi that person, but rather so that you yourself can be yotzei pirsumei nisa (if nobody sees it, there’s no pirsum).

    Regardless, in the cases you brought, it would probably be appropriate the wake the person. Nothing to do with pirsumei nisa, just because it’s a mitzvah and they most likely don’t want to miss out.

    #1634785

    Toi
    Participant

    Can you bring a mekor for the concept of gezel sheinah?

    #1634852

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Meno is right

    The reason is for פרסומי ניסא

    But in a case where you’re alone you don’t have to get anyone to see it rather it’s fulfilled through you the same should apply here

    #1636547

    laskern
    Participant

    We find that the goy Doma bar Nesina did not want to wake up his father with the ruby where he was laying on the key so he was rewarded with a red heifer.

    #1636578

    whitecar
    Participant

    @toi there is one I know of in Brachos where I believe it was Rav Nachman (i could be wrong) asked his shamesh that if he falls asleep in the morning while saying shema, if he didnt finish the first paragraph then he should be woken. Otherwise dont wake him even though he has not completley finished. I heard that (i forgot who) this was so the shamash wouldnt cause Gezel Shaina (since r nachman holds only the first paragraph is a chiyuv and therefore must be woken up)

    #1636590

    justme22
    Participant

    laskern, I believe that was because of kivud of parents not because of Gezel shina. Don’t think that’s a makor.

    I assume you can only wake them up to light if they are not makpid under assumption that they would want you to light with pesumei nisa I don’t think this should grant permission for anyone to wake up his roommates or wife if they are not happy about it for example if the night before they were unhappy you woke them

    #1636594

    laskern
    Participant

    justme22, It looks right you are right because he was rewarded with the red heifer where the Jews are willing to pay much money on something that has no reason compared to kibud av where there is a reason.

    #1636666

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    First bring a makor where gezel shaina is mentioned by chazal as even something considered stealing miderabanan. Then we can talk more.

    #1644772

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I was told גזל שינה is a דין of ואהבת לרעך כמוך but if the person doesn’t mind being woken up there’s no problem

    That answers my question, sorry for the delay

    #1644855

    Bramo
    Participant

    mitzvah haba avirah might only be if the actual mitzva takes place through the avirah which in this case it is not

    #1644858

    Bramo
    Participant

    mitzvah haba avirah might only be if the actual mitzva takes place through the avirah which in this case it is not

    #1645029

    jay23
    Participant

    The concept of “Gezel” by sleep is from a mussar standpoint and not a Halacha standpoint . However it would def be wrong to wake someone up for no reason, I have seen a pesak that one can wake up his father for Chanukah if he knows for sure that his father wants him to however in that case there is a halachac obligation of Kibbud av so it would seem by a regular person the assumption of him wanting to help you be mekayem פרסומי ניסא would be enough however it would be reasonable to say that if one knows for that the person does not want to be woken in this circumstance then it would be wrong to do so

    #1645037

    jay23
    Participant

    The concept of “Gezel” by sleep is from a mussar standpoint and not a Halacha standpoint . However it would def be wrong to wake someone up for no reason, I have seen a pesak that one can wake up his father for Chanukah if he knows for sure that his father wants him to however in that case there is a halachac obligation of Kibbud av so it would seem by a regular person the assumption of him wanting to help you be mekayem פרסומי ניסא would be enough however it would be reasonable to say that if one knows for that the person does not want to be woken in this circumstance then it would be wrong to do so.

    #1645055

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    mitzvah haba avirah might only be if the actual mitzva takes place through the avirah which in this case it is not

    The מצוה of פרסומי ניסא doesn’t take place through the עבירה of גזל שינה (if there was one)?

    #1645070

    knaidlach
    Participant

    I would think that a yid would be happy to be woken up for a few minutes to be able to help another yid to fulfil a mitzva. yidden do much greater chesed to help other yidden.

    #1645088

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    While the inyan of pirsumei nisah (or assisting another to be yotzeh that or any other mitzvah) is always something to consider, an equally important and practical consideration is the fact that for a large percentage of the tzibur, getting a good night’s sleep is critical to their daily functioning and it may be very difficult to fall back asleep if they are woken. In such circumstances, be very cautious about waking a member of the family or friend.

    #1645118

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Knaidalach,

    That’s only if they have an easy time falling asleep

    Gadolhadorah

    The Mishnah brurah is talking about you know they don’t mind

    #1647552

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    Derech agav not so poshut you need anyone to see your lighting. Igros Moshe 4:105:7 befeirush not. Also seen quoted besheim Rav Ovadia and Rav Shlomo Zalman.

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