November 30, 2018 2:30 am at 2:30 am #1633582
I was reading the OU daf hakashrus in shul tonight and in it it quotes the (משנה ברורה (תרע״ב י״א which says if you come home and everyone is asleep you should wake someone up to light
Why isn’t that גזל שינה and therefore a מצוה הבאה בעבירה?November 30, 2018 6:31 am at 6:31 am #1633671JosephParticipant
What if someone will sleep through zman tefila if you do not awaken them.November 30, 2018 7:59 am at 7:59 am #1633676
They have a חיוב to daven
You have the חיוב of פרסומי ניסא
Why can you wake someone up in order to fulfill your חיוב?November 30, 2018 8:01 am at 8:01 am #1633678
This is in the middle of the night so he’s going back to sleep
By זמן תפילה I hope he isn’t and can be productive the rest of the dayNovember 30, 2018 9:57 am at 9:57 am #1633714
Could be if he wants him to wake him up ניחא ליה לאינש לעשות מצוה בגופו he is not taking the sleep away as the women want to be in the sukkoh to help the men.November 30, 2018 10:00 am at 10:00 am #1633719avreichamshlomoParticipant
When your mishpacha lights at home when you wont get home until very late, are the being motzei you? If yes, you dont need to wake anyone up. If they are not motzei you, the question stands, unless the halacha to wake someone up nly applies when you need to be motzei them, because they didnt light. In that case, of course wake them up, its for their benefit inherently, as otherwise they miss this mitzvah.
Anyways, it is very possible that the entire way this mitzvah was set up by chazal, was without a problem of gezel shaina.November 30, 2018 10:06 am at 10:06 am #1633722MenoParticipant
I believe the purpose of waking people up in this case is not to be motzi them, but rather so that there is pirsumei nisa.November 30, 2018 11:29 am at 11:29 am #1633790GadolhadorahParticipant
Meno: While the inyan of Pirsumei Nisa is most frequently thought of in connection to the lighting of Hanukkah lecht, I recall learning that variations of the same inyan apply to the reading of the Megillah on Purim, the recitation of the Hallel on yom tovim and drinking the arba kosos at the Pesach Seder. In each case, would you make a judgement in each case (aka nudge the guy next to you in shul if he fell asleep at the end of chazaras hashatz for shachris before moving on to Hallel or your zeida’s falling asleep at the end of a long seder before the baracha for the fourth kos?)November 30, 2018 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #1634450MenoParticipant
You’re misunderstanding my point. I was responding to avreichamshlomo. I was just pointing out that the reason for waking someone up in this case is not in order to be motzi that person, but rather so that you yourself can be yotzei pirsumei nisa (if nobody sees it, there’s no pirsum).
Regardless, in the cases you brought, it would probably be appropriate the wake the person. Nothing to do with pirsumei nisa, just because it’s a mitzvah and they most likely don’t want to miss out.December 1, 2018 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1634785ToiParticipant
Can you bring a mekor for the concept of gezel sheinah?December 1, 2018 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1634852
Meno is right
The reason is for פרסומי ניסא
But in a case where you’re alone you don’t have to get anyone to see it rather it’s fulfilled through you the same should apply hereDecember 3, 2018 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1636547
We find that the goy Doma bar Nesina did not want to wake up his father with the ruby where he was laying on the key so he was rewarded with a red heifer.December 3, 2018 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1636578whitecarParticipant
@Toi there is one I know of in Brachos where I believe it was Rav Nachman (i could be wrong) asked his shamesh that if he falls asleep in the morning while saying shema, if he didnt finish the first paragraph then he should be woken. Otherwise dont wake him even though he has not completley finished. I heard that (i forgot who) this was so the shamash wouldnt cause Gezel Shaina (since r nachman holds only the first paragraph is a chiyuv and therefore must be woken up)December 3, 2018 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #1636590justme22Participant
laskern, I believe that was because of kivud of parents not because of Gezel shina. Don’t think that’s a makor.
I assume you can only wake them up to light if they are not makpid under assumption that they would want you to light with pesumei nisa I don’t think this should grant permission for anyone to wake up his roommates or wife if they are not happy about it for example if the night before they were unhappy you woke themDecember 3, 2018 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1636594
justme22, It looks right you are right because he was rewarded with the red heifer where the Jews are willing to pay much money on something that has no reason compared to kibud av where there is a reason.December 4, 2018 7:19 am at 7:19 am #1636666Takes3tomakemangosParticipant
First bring a makor where gezel shaina is mentioned by chazal as even something considered stealing miderabanan. Then we can talk more.December 14, 2018 9:06 am at 9:06 am #1644772
I was told גזל שינה is a דין of ואהבת לרעך כמוך but if the person doesn’t mind being woken up there’s no problem
That answers my question, sorry for the delayDecember 14, 2018 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #1644855BramoParticipant
mitzvah haba avirah might only be if the actual mitzva takes place through the avirah which in this case it is notDecember 14, 2018 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #1644858BramoParticipant
mitzvah haba avirah might only be if the actual mitzva takes place through the avirah which in this case it is notDecember 15, 2018 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #1645029jay23Participant
The concept of “Gezel” by sleep is from a mussar standpoint and not a Halacha standpoint . However it would def be wrong to wake someone up for no reason, I have seen a pesak that one can wake up his father for Chanukah if he knows for sure that his father wants him to however in that case there is a halachac obligation of Kibbud av so it would seem by a regular person the assumption of him wanting to help you be mekayem פרסומי ניסא would be enough however it would be reasonable to say that if one knows for that the person does not want to be woken in this circumstance then it would be wrong to do soDecember 15, 2018 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1645037jay23Participant
The concept of “Gezel” by sleep is from a mussar standpoint and not a Halacha standpoint . However it would def be wrong to wake someone up for no reason, I have seen a pesak that one can wake up his father for Chanukah if he knows for sure that his father wants him to however in that case there is a halachac obligation of Kibbud av so it would seem by a regular person the assumption of him wanting to help you be mekayem פרסומי ניסא would be enough however it would be reasonable to say that if one knows for that the person does not want to be woken in this circumstance then it would be wrong to do so.December 15, 2018 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #1645055
mitzvah haba avirah might only be if the actual mitzva takes place through the avirah which in this case it is not
The מצוה of פרסומי ניסא doesn’t take place through the עבירה of גזל שינה (if there was one)?December 15, 2018 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1645070knaidlachParticipant
I would think that a yid would be happy to be woken up for a few minutes to be able to help another yid to fulfil a mitzva. yidden do much greater chesed to help other yidden.December 15, 2018 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1645088GadolhadorahParticipant
While the inyan of pirsumei nisah (or assisting another to be yotzeh that or any other mitzvah) is always something to consider, an equally important and practical consideration is the fact that for a large percentage of the tzibur, getting a good night’s sleep is critical to their daily functioning and it may be very difficult to fall back asleep if they are woken. In such circumstances, be very cautious about waking a member of the family or friend.December 15, 2018 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1645118
That’s only if they have an easy time falling asleep
The Mishnah brurah is talking about you know they don’t mindDecember 19, 2018 12:56 am at 12:56 am #1647552Rebbe YidParticipant
Derech agav not so poshut you need anyone to see your lighting. Igros Moshe 4:105:7 befeirush not. Also seen quoted besheim Rav Ovadia and Rav Shlomo Zalman.
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