June 24, 2013 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #962415The little I knowParticipant
“Staying in yeshiva” does not guarantee anyone’s hashkofos. What ultimately matters is what someone does while in yeshiva, and whether they are fulfilling the advice in Pirkei Avos, ??? ?? ??.
If someone “just gets by” in yeshiva, the environment has limited impact on him, and this bochur allows himself to be impressed by anything he chooses. While this can be the hadracha of the yeshiva and its hanhala, it can also be the exposure to anything and everything else. If we fail to ignite the passion for Avodas Hashem in favor of the academic achievements in learning, we can easily lose such talmidim to the enticements and attractions of the outside world. It is incumbent on all mechanchim of all levels to address that pintele in each and every talmid so that they will progress in their appropriate track of Avodas Hashem (???? ???? ?? ?? ????). We can then be zocheh to retain these talmidim as ????? ???”?, regardless of where they spend their time, in yeshiva or the working world.June 24, 2013 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #962416
DaasYochid: First of all, please don’t insult my intelligence or me. Like most jews,I have a lot to learn still- as I am sure you have!- but don’t insult me with your snide remarks. You only show your total contempt for people who don’t think like you. If you don’t have an answer to my questions (mishne kiddushim still exists, as far as a taught profession), you revert to insults, That is the sign of an ignoramus.
Second- please go and have a secret vote amongst all the mothers who have , Beli Ayin Horah, six ,seven kids and go to work while their husbands smoke away in various kollelim- not knowing what they are actually doing, and then come back to me with the results. Only then will I retract my assertion about the amjority of women not wanting tp be “mocheL” their husbands.
Hello99- We don’t pasken like Rav Nehoroi. Check the gemoro.
I fully endorse the words of “the little I know”. He has it totally right.June 24, 2013 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #962417Sam2Participant
I once heard a great quote from a barely Frum YU guy: “YU is where you go if you want to go to college and stay Frum”. Unless you are actually in Yeshivah half a day or plan on going to college together with a very dedicated group of close friends, it is very difficult to stay Frum in a secular college. But so long as one of those two conditions are met, it can be done.June 24, 2013 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #962418Rabbi PerfectMember
I agree with DY that R’Altusky was right in his attempts to keep the bachur in yeshiva a little longer, (I, myself wanted to leave after a short while, and BH my Rosh Yeshiva encouraged me to stay a little longer, and I’m still staying strong B’H, and am currently working on a kuntress, B’H with quite a few chiddushim, something I never even dreamt would be within my capabilities) although I must admit, his statement of “no college man can be frum” was harsh, but then again, how sure can we be of his “quote” of R’Altusky? Maybe he didn’t say it like that?? We all have what to learn, and notice that many people here are “frowning upon” (to be nice) those who sit and learn full time. Why is that? Why are you now any better than your supposed “accusers”? Yes, there are those in yeshiva/kollel who do their occasional batalah, but can’t you say that there are those who go to college and aren’t kovei’a itim, or even worse don’t make an honest living C’V (ie ribbis, ona’ah, etc.)? There are those in both fields who aren’t exactly the biggest “tzaddikim” in their respectful fields, yet that is no reason to go on the offensive and bash the other “klal”. It seems to me that those here who are working and typing such nonsensical things almost feel guilty of the fact that they’re working. Listen to your own advice, and respect the fact that you are working, don’t bash those who aren’t because they don’t agree with you.June 24, 2013 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #962419
We do pasken like R’ Nehorai.
I don’t show contempt for people who don’t think like me.
I show contempt for the arrogance of those who think they know how to learn a piece of gemara better than our gedolim (not for them, for their arrogance).June 24, 2013 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #962420
GAW, point well taken, but I still think the overall advice given by R’ Altusky was better.
BTW, DaMoshe’s friend went to college, then OTD.June 24, 2013 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #962421oomisParticipant
that we shouldn’t marry the daughter of a working man, “
Well, who else is going to support them, then?June 24, 2013 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #962422
I greatly admire you and wish I knew who you were. We need more rabbanim with your hashkafa and approach. I am very much a fan of the Yekke approach; Yekkes are very close to Sephardim, and I find much inspiration in Rav Hirsch, Melamed Le Hoil, R’ Hildesheimer, etc.June 24, 2013 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #962423
ROB- thanks for your comments and assumptions. we disagree with you.June 24, 2013 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #962424just my hapenceParticipant
The Mashgiach in one of the yeshivos I went too (can’t say which but it’s a biggie) once told me that he is actually two Mashgichim – the ‘PR’ Mashgiach and the personal Mashgiach. The ‘PR’ Mashgiach gets up and gives shmusen on staying in learning, the personal one tells individual bochurim, in private, what he thinks they should be doing. He told me that I would be surprised at how many bochurim he’s told to go to university and even more surprised at who these bochurim were. Having said all that, he did once give a series of shmussen on business ethics and chemdas hamomon which he prefaces with a statement along the lines of “whilst many boys here will be surprised at me giving these shmussen the truth is that maybe 5 or 10 bochurim in this room are ra’ui for staying in learning long term. Everyone else needs to know how to do work when they get there.” Those weren’t his exact words, I know (it’s coming on for 6 years since I heard the smooze…) but it’s a pretty fair representation of them…June 24, 2013 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #962425musser zogerParticipant
ROB- thanks for your comments and assumptions. we disagree with you.
Toi, The kollelleit don’t even fulfill the requiremnts of the kesuba, which includes support. It is the man’s responsibility to support the wife, not the other way. I guess you disagree with the kesubah also.June 24, 2013 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #962426
Some big yeshivot aren’t adverse to people becoming doctors, accountants, and lawyers. I know Torah Vodaas, Chofetz Chaim, Chaim Berlin guys who have done so. Ohr Somayach even sponsors an accounting program at FDU, and Ohr Yisroel sponsors an MBA with Seton Hall.June 24, 2013 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #962427
ROB wrote: “Second- please go and have a secret vote amongst all the mothers who have , Beli Ayin Horah, six ,seven kids and go to work while their husbands smoke away in various kollelim- not knowing what they are actually doing, and then come back to me with the results. Only then will I retract my assertion about the amjority of women not wanting tp be “mocheL” their husbands.”
ROB – I am a kollel wife of numerous kids B”H, and I am not saying it is easy but nothing in life (this world at least) is easy or meant to be – torah (and olam haba) are acquired through (HAPPY) mesirus nefesh! You can ask my peers as well as myself and we’ll tell you that we truly feel loads of simcha despite (maybe because of) the fact that it’s hard!
I work as well, READILY and WANT to do so even though I’m past the idealism stage and have many kids ka”H. I see my husband is like a fish in water when he’s with seforim, and he helps out whenever he is home or when I need him (as I said, with lots of kids and I work…) – however, while I’ll agree it is stressful at times, even at some point on most days, I wouldn’t trade it for anything in the world!
That being said, I have seen many women who are washed out and don’t have that simcha and the guy does seem clueless or couldn’t care less (often seen with wives of balabatim as well) and that is just outright bad middos and lack of sensitivity and pashut wrong whether they’re in kollel or working…but don’t blame Torah for that, post a thread on bad middos and people who are insensitive!!June 24, 2013 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #962428
DaasYochid: I don’t know you and I am reluctant to continue to argue with you-as it brings me to say loshon horah and I try to avoid insulting people, so, you are free to say whatever you want, I will concentrate on actual facts.
First ,we do not pasken like Rav Nehoroi- The Rambam in Pirush Hamisnayos clearly endorses the gemoro in kiddushin 29A. The Maharsho on Daf 82A (which is the mekor of Rav nehoroi’s saying-pleae note Hello99) clearly says that “les man depalig’ on the mishneh 29A about teaching a profession. As a matter of fact, he mantains that even R”Nehoroi intended to have a job-just that the Torah was the constant. And, tellingly, on 82B, R”Meir endorses a profession- although it is assumed that R”Nehoroi IS R” Meir.
The Rosh too, brings down the gemoro 29a lehalocho.
But enough said. Every gemoro, every rishon, every source you can find (until these past fifty years) instructed people to go to work. Never was there ever an idea that masses of people should rely upon others- whether to learn or otherwise- and not to anything. This is a foreigh concept. You may accuse me of not being to learn a gemoro, I prefer not to put my faith in people who have been wrong on many other matters.
For your information- I have two sons who are learning- HOWEVER- they are not relying on the klal. That is the crux of the matter. You can do whatever you want with your money- but don’t make me subsidize your way of living.
And- for good measure=please check the Rambam “hilchos matnas anyim” perek 10,mishneh 18.
Rebdoniel- thanks for your kind words.
oomis- you and I are the old generation and we have the experience. The young ones will learn to theri detriment.June 24, 2013 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #962429jbaldy22Member
@DY I hear your taina about mechila. My R’Y seems to have held that such a mechila is not valid in this situation – maybe he meant in a situation where the wife isn’t making enough to support the family it doesnt work? To be honest I am not sure why.June 25, 2013 12:27 am at 12:27 am #962430
Et tu, MZ?June 25, 2013 2:39 am at 2:39 am #962431
ROB, there is no machlokes, hence the halachah can be like both. One can’t arbitrarily avoid his obligation to teach a profession, but can be mechanech his son in Toraso umnaso.
Your assumptions that the entire yeshivah world, with the encouragement of its gedolim, is in blatant violation of halachah is insulting, arrogant, and ignorant.
You are not better informed than them.June 25, 2013 3:10 am at 3:10 am #962432
Jbaldy, what does “this situation” mean?June 25, 2013 4:40 am at 4:40 am #962433jbaldy22Member
He was referring to wives being moichel on that aspect on the kesuba if the husband isnt working. I am assuming he meant in a situation where the family doesnt have enough money to live off of from just the wife working ie. when they have a bunch of kids.June 25, 2013 6:28 am at 6:28 am #962434SL1Member
of course the husband has an obligation to support his wife. but if they mutually agree that she should work of course it works. and all this malarkey about going OTD from collge. please. dont we all know professionals who actually became baalei teshuva in college? a person is obligated to learn a trade and if the world we live in doesn’t agree with torah values, what are we going to do, lock ourselves in a cage?! hopefully the torah that he learnt before he goes to college and his own convictions will keep him from being influenced by anti-torah values.
and while were on the topic. i digress. this era in yiddishkeit is the era of ‘gedarim'(fences). no internet. no college. no working. all ‘gedarim’. the irony is that while the purpose of ‘gedarim’ are to keep us from being ‘parutz’, we have now become ‘parutz’ in making ‘gedarim’. but isn’t the purpose not to avoid nisyonos but to overcome nisyonos!? why must we shy away from every battle and not have some trust in our torah, our mesora, and ourselves!? isn’t it time we faced the world as it is, became part of the world, and still held on to our traditions to the fullest extent?! wer’e acting like a child who plays peek-a-boo and thinks that since he cant see you, you cant see him as well. the ‘gedarim’ are not the purpose. the purpose is living a torah life – that is, living, with torah.June 25, 2013 8:12 am at 8:12 am #962435
musser – some of us wives make an agreement to be our husband’s zevulun and fargin the kesuba
as an aside, it’s a pretty paltry sum to make that a strong argument in this discussion…
I know it will cause sparks among women on the thread, but according to halacha any money we make goes to our husbands anyway (discuss with your LOR for ways around that if necc)- so regardless they’d have to fulfill the kesuba based on the money and items we bring into the marriage…June 25, 2013 10:57 am at 10:57 am #962436
DaasYochid: As said, I will be circumspect in my comments. YOu call my assumptions “insulting,arrogsnt, and ignorant”. Pray,Sir, they sure are not ignorant (plenty of sources shown)- arrogant? because I have shown that the Emperor has no clothes? and why are they insulting- they just point out the tragedy in the making !June 25, 2013 11:00 am at 11:00 am #962437
dveykus613: I don’t now you or your husband and you may be one of the exceptions. Please note that the many arguments against your way of life is addressed to the assumption that everyone-just everyone – should follow that way-and that has the seeds of tragedy. No one has ever denied that individuals should continue on this path.The arguemnt is about the masses.June 25, 2013 11:35 am at 11:35 am #962438
musser- dont you think thats dumb? if the price on a cookie is five dollars and i tell the guy to pay me for it and he agrees, thats perfectly valid. if my wife wants to be in this situation because of what she believes in, that would be ok. i find it hysterical that rd and rob apologize for the women of the wall and admit that their passion for tefillin is compelling, while my wifes passion to have me learn isnt as importnant.
dveykus said it well.
you wont criticize a women with a career whose husband works for putting in backbreaking hours and working solely to create a future for herself, but youll go to town on a woman who wants to build something eternal. brilliant.June 25, 2013 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #962439DaMosheParticipant
DaasYochid, if you’re referring to Feif Un, you have it wrong.
He was pretty much OTD while still in yeshiva. One of the Roshei Yeshiva wanted to expel him, but the highest RY there told the other one to let him stay, because after the year was over he’d want to leave anyway, and he wasn’t influencing anyone else – he kept things to himself.
If anything, it was in college (where I first met him), that he became more frum. He had some extremely bad experiences in yeshiva which made him not want to be frum. One of them was being told some of the same things I was told – that college guys can’t be frum. He asked the Rebbe if that meant his (Feif Un’s, not the Rebbe’s) parents weren’t frum, since they went to college, and he was punished for being chutzpadik.
Feif Un “dared” to ask the questions that yeshiva guys are not supposed to ask – he dared to ask “Why?” and he was ridiculed for it. For a religion that supposedly encourages questions, the right-wing yeshiva system is certainly doing a great job of doing the opposite. That was what drove Feif Un OTD. It started when he was in elementary school, and got worse over the years. In college, he realized that you can be a good Jew and not be sitting and learning all day, and decided to give it another try. That’s a big part of why Feif Un is so adamantly against chareidi Judaism – because he saw the hypocrisy in it, and their willingness to throw those who don’t fit into their system to the wayside.
In case you’re wondering, yes, I did check with Feif Un before posting this stuff about him, and he gave me the ok.June 25, 2013 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #962440Josh31Participant
“but isn’t the purpose not to avoid nisyonos but to overcome nisyonos”
Actually the purpose is to minimize nisyonos.
By teaching your son Torah you give him the knowledge to avoid sin.
(There are also other reasons to learn Torah.)
By teaching your son an honest way to make a living you greatly reduce his temptation to steal later in life.
By getting him a beautiful wife, you reduce his temptation to sin in other ways.June 25, 2013 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #962441adam3Participant
WOW!! I am truly shocked at some of the comments here. Some people are commenting that ‘you cannot be in a college and stay frum’. These are the same people that believe that no one should ever go to work. Until you actually took a course in a college you cannot make your assumption. Second, there are MANY from college programs such as COPE, TTI, ETC that offer a frum environment for Jewish college students. Tuoro College even offers separate classes for men and women. So to all those people that agree with R Altusky, your ignorance is awesome.
My second point is that once someone ‘makes it’ in the business world, the Yeshiva’s come running after them for money. Yes, the same Yeshiva that told him that he would never be frum because he went to college…..June 25, 2013 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #962442oomisParticipant
isn’t it time we faced the world as it is, became part of the world, and still held on to our traditions to the fullest extent?! “
Very intersting point. A very similar point was made in the comparison of Purim and Yom Kippurim, that Yom Kippur identifies itself by its very name as a “day LIKE Purim.” What does this mean?
It’s saying that in one respect, Purim might be viewed as an even holier day than the day that is LIKE it. Why? The reason is simple. It is very easy to be extremely spiritual and reflective and connected to Hashem, acting with proper Torah values and hashkafos when one is fasting and in Shul all day davening. The REAL test, however, is how one conducts himself when he is partying, drinking, celebrating,etc. as we do on Purim. If he can maintain that same spirituality, connection to Hashem, and act with proper Torah values under THAT circumstance, then he is truly living a Torah life.
Anyone can be a tzaddik when adding more and more gedarim. The question is, how do we behave when we do NOT have those gedarim around us?June 25, 2013 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #962443Feif UnParticipant
DaMoshe, thanks for covering a lot of the ground. I’ll shed some more light on what happened in my case.
When I was in elementary school (it was the first day of 6th grade), as DaMoshe posted, I once said something about wanting to go to college. The Rebbe replied (in front of the entire class), “College? Only shkutzim go to college! You’re going to sit in kollel!”
I went home that night, and my parents asked me, “How was the first day of school?” I told them, “Apparently Tatty is a sheigitz, and Mommy is a shiksa!” The principal got an interesting phone call that night!
he next day, my Rebbe confronted me, and told me I was chutzpadik for telling my parents what he said. I was thrown out of class. The Rebbe repeatedly embarrassed me publicly throughout the school year.
When I was in 9th grade, I had a Rebbe who would also humiliate me. He told me he was doing it to make me a better masmid. Other kids in the class picked up on it, and I had a miserable year. I decided that if that was what went into being a masmid, I wanted no part of it.
Throughout high school, I didn’t really try to learn very much. I switched schools after 9th grade because I refused to go back to the yeshiva I’d been in. I got excellent grades in my general studies, but barely passed any tests in Gemara, I constantly skipped seder, etc. I was in a dormitory, which was closely watched, so there wasn’t much opportunity for other things. When we had an off-weekend, I’d go out and meet up with girls. I wasn’t careful about various things like Shabbos and kosher. I didn’t do things openly, but if I forgot to shut my alarm clock on Friday, I’d turn it off on Shabbos, or I’d adjust the AC in the summer if I needed to. I didn’t wait between eating meat and dairy at all – if I wanted a chocolate bar 10 minutes after a burger, I ate it.
After high school, my parents convinced me to spend one year in beis medrash. The Rosh Yeshiva caught on to what was going on, and decided to have a talk with me. At first he wanted to expel me, but his boss (the top RY) wouldn’t let him. When he heard I was going to go to college, suddenly he wanted me to stay. He told me, “If you go to college, you’re flushing your whole life down the toilet! You’ll never be a good Jew in college, because college doesn’t go together with being a frum Jew. You could learn all you want, but if you’re in college, it doesn’t matter – you can’t stay frum!”
I told him I definitely wasn’t staying in yeshiva, and that was that. I decided that if nothing I did would matter, then I might as well enjoy myself, so I completely let go. No more Shabbos, no more kosher, I started dating a girl who was in a sorority.
I went to Touro College only because they had a good program for what I wanted, and it fit with my (part time) work schedule. I made some friends there (including DaMoshe!) who were nice, Modern Orthodox people. I was also coasting my way through half a day of yeshiva at the time only to get the college credits. After some time, I realized that I wasn’t any happier than I’d be in yeshiva. I saw that a lot of my college friends seemed very happy and fulfilled with their lives, so I decided to give Judaism a try again – but not the yeshivish version. That’s how I went into the Modern Orthodox philosophy.
That’s just a condensed version. There are more details, but this is all I can write right now. College doesn’t make people go OTD. They go OTD because they don’t have a firm foundation in Judaism. That can happen anywhere – even in yeshiva.June 25, 2013 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #962444gavra_at_workParticipant
if the price on a cookie is five dollars and i tell the guy to pay me for it and he agrees, thats perfectly valid.
Except that it would be Onn’ah and an Issur D’Oraysa. Nothing to do with the point in question, and more of an FYI.June 25, 2013 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #962445musser zogerParticipant
musser – some of us wives make an agreement to be our husband’s zevulun and fargin the kesuba
Fargin all you want. How many are taking from the govt, food stamps, wic? Is the govt a zevulon too?June 25, 2013 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #962446WolfishMusingsParticipant
I recall very strongly a column by Rebbetzin Jungries’ that appeared in the Jewish Press back in the summer of 2008. In the column two young women wrote about how their fathers were put down to their faces because they worked instead of learned full-time.
The first one wrote (emphasis mine):
Once, my principal accused me of doing some inappropriate things that I would never dream of doing. When I told her that I was raised differently and that my Yiddishkeit meant too much to me to ever participate in the activities she accused me of, she said that she would expect such behavior from me because I was “not a good girl” as I unfortunately “come from a working family.” Even more hurtful was when I was told to “not lower myself to my father’s level” by marrying a working guy even if he would devote time to Torah.
The second one described what happened to her as she was applying for seminaries:
So, yeah, in at least some places, they genuinely disrespect people who don’t learn full-time.
The WolfJune 25, 2013 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #962447
Toi-when did I ever stand up for the Women of the Wall? Where did I ever admire their passion for tefillin? Plese do not misrepresent my views.June 25, 2013 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #962448
As the Vilna Gaon told the Dubno Maggid, “Ich bin nisht kein kuntzmacher.”June 25, 2013 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #962449
Rambam (Matanot Aniyim 10:18): One should avoid taking from people if at all possible, even if he must suffer. He should not impose on the Tzibur to support him. Chachamim commanded to make Shabbos Chol rather than take Tzedakah. Even if a respected Chacham became poor, he should not take from people. One should not say ‘I am a Chacham, or a Kohen – support me!’ Great Chachamim chopped wood, carried beams, drew water, or were smiths rather than request from the Tzibur. They did not accept offers of money.
Rashbam (Bava Batra 110a DH v’Tol): One might have thought that it disgraces Torah if a Chacham does menial work, just like if he has a stain on his garment. Rav taught Rav Kahana that it is not a disgrace.
2. Rambam (ibid. 19): If one cannot survive without taking, e.g. he is old, sick or afflicted, but he is too haughty to take, he is responsible for his own death. The pain he inflicted on himself is a sin. If one needs to take but rather lives a life of hardship to avoid imposing himself on the Tzibur, before he dies he will support others from his money. About such people it says “Baruch ha’Gever Asher Yivtach ba’Shem”.
(Source: Yerushalmi Sof Pe’ah, brought in R. Shimshon Sof Pe’ah.)
Rambam (Perush ha’Mishnayot Avot 1:13): One who intentionally is financed by and benefits from Torah will die. A Chacham may be served only by his Talmidim.
Rambam (ibid. 4:5 and Hilchot Talmud Torah 3:10): If one plans to learn Torah, not work and receive Tzedakah, this is Chilul Hashem and a disgrace to Torah. He harms himself and removes his life from the world to come, for it is forbidden to benefit from Torah in this world. Chachamim taught that one should love work and despise positions of authority. Any Torah not accompanied by work will not endure; in the end he will rob people. It is a mistake to think that people or communities are obligated to support people who learn Torah all day.
In every generation there have been very poor and very rich people. Surely, the rich were willing to give to the poor! Rather, the poor preferred to subsist on their meager incomes. Chachamim like Hillel and R. Chanina ben Dosa were very poor. They saw that it would be Chilul Hashem to take money from people, lest Torah be cheapened in people’s eyes, i.e. Torah would look like a profession from which people finance themselves. Karna drew water, and was a judge. He would ask the litigants to get someone to draw in place of him or pay him what he will lose in the time he judges them.
R’ Yonatan ben Amram was insistent not to be supported due to his Torah.
The Torah allows a Chacham to give money to people and they will give to him profit earned through it. Also, we may declare that no one may sell until the Chacham sells his merchandise, for merchants themselves often grant this to someone they want to honor even if he is not a Chacham. Chachamim are exempt from taxes and certain obligations such as building the wall around the city. The Gemara says that one who wants to benefit from others like Elisha may do so. This means to occasionally accept lodging or a meal, but not regular stipends! (Here, there is an expectation that a talmid hakham will support himself through comemrcial activity).
Shulchan Aruch (OC 156:1): After learning one should go to his occupation, for any Torah not accompanied by work will not endure. In the end it will cause sin; poverty will make him transgress Hashem’s will.
Bet Yosef (DV v’Achar): One might have thought that it is better to learn Torah constantly. The Mishnah (Avot 2:2) teaches unlike this, for when his money runs out he will need to pursue income and will not even be able to fix times for Torah.
(YD 255:1): One should avoid taking Tzedakah if at all possible, even if he must suffer. Chachamim commanded to make Shabbos Chol rather than take Tzedakah
Bi’ur Halakha (DH Sofah): Most people should work. However, there are always a minority of individuals who can adopt R. Shimon bar Yochai’s approach (Berachot 35b), to devote themselves totally to Torah and Hash-m will help them find income. In particular, if there are people willing to supply his needs so he can learn he need not work, just like Yisachar, who was supported by Zevulun.
This has been grossly distorted. We’d all say that there ought to be professional rabbis. Talmidei hakhamim that are our rebbeim, teachers, kiruv rabbanim, posekim, maggidei shiur, havrutot, tutors, soferim, shochtim, mashgichim, mohalim, etc. But, the Hafetz Hayyim held like the Rambam. He insisted on not being a burden on others. He opened a general store, and supervised the absolute accuracy of the weights and measures, the quality of the merchandise, and the fairness of the prices, to make certain that no one was deceived or overcharged in any way. He not only supported himself honorbaly while becoming one of the greatest gaonim to walk our earth, but also did so ethically, honorably, and justly. What a lesson for those who insist that they cannot work, and for those who are crooked. Indeed, as we see Haredim living in poverty in Israel, the barrage of fraud, scandals, crookedness, and deceit that accompanies such a lifestyle inevitably follows, and we sadly see those results today, causing HaShem’s name to be desecrated and the Torah to become an object of mockery and scorn among the millions of secular Israelis who are divorced from traditional Judaism. How sad is that?June 25, 2013 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #962451benignumanParticipant
Rabbi Altusky was trying to persuade a young man to stay in Yeshiva. Don’t take what he said literally.
Not to mention there is a vast difference between younger single person going to college and married, older person going to college.June 25, 2013 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #962452Sam2Participant
I’m not really involved in this thread because I’m not at all holding in this discussion, but I would just like to point out one thing: There is a massive difference between a bad system and a system with morons in bad places. I don’t think the Yeshivish world as a whole has anything against working people. I think that some people are morons and think this and unfortunately some of those morons are in teaching/administrative positions. If the Yeshivish world has one failing in this area, it is its unwillingness to admit that these morons exist and to remove them when necessary.June 25, 2013 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #962453anon1m0usParticipant
My yeshiva called me for a donation. I told them they did not support my ambition to work then so I will not support them now either since my money should be considered treif and donating would be considered Mitzvah Bo Bavayrah.June 25, 2013 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #962454zahavasdadParticipant
Everybody is different. Different people need differnt paths in life.
There is no correct path for everyone. For some people the Kollel path is the correct way and for others trade path and others College and then a profession.
You cant paskin from an internet blog and say one rav is correct or incorrect without knowning the individualJune 25, 2013 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #962455zahavasdadParticipant
My yeshiva called me for a donation. I told them they did not support my ambition to work then so I will not support them now either since my money should be considered treif and donating would be considered Mitzvah Bo Bavayrah.
I have heard similar stories to this and many times the persons reaction was similarJune 25, 2013 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #962456
GAW- i was making the point. youre right.
edit- GAW- if you really had the proper haarachah of a good cookie, youd understand.
rob- guess i misremembered.June 25, 2013 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #962457WIYMember
“My yeshiva called me for a donation. I told them they did not support my ambition to work then so I will not support them now either since my money should be considered treif and donating would be considered Mitzvah Bo Bavayrah.”
This is one hypocrisy I will never understand. Additionally, when you were in their Yeshivah they did “diddlysquat” for you and were hardly aware you existed. But now that you have some money they have no problem making calls sucking up to you in such a disgusting manner.June 25, 2013 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #962458
rebdoniel: thanks for the very thorough quotes of the gemoro and rishonim on this matter. Thre is more but you have made a great effort! Thanks!June 25, 2013 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #962459
rebdoniel: thanks for the very thorough quotes of the gemoro and rishonim on this matter. Thre is more but you have made a great effort! Thanks!June 25, 2013 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #962460
rebdoniel: thanks for the very thorough quotes of the gemoro and rishonim on this matter. There is more but you have made a great effort! Thanks!June 25, 2013 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #962461HealthParticipant
I honestly don’t know how this topic turned into -Yes Kollel – No Kollel. I personally think there are people that should learn in Kollel long time and some Not at all. The fact that noone (or very few) here can see this is gray area, not just black & white, questions the intelligence of these posters.
I actually want to discuss the Topic started by the OP.
I did find by some, in the many years that I was in Yeshiva, that some, Not all, had a superior attitude to those who were Baal Habattim. There weren’t a lot like this, but it did exist.
Some had this attitude and would refer to working people as “Farshtunkene Baal Habuss”.June 25, 2013 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #962462gavra_at_workParticipant
edit- GAW- if you really had the proper haarachah of a good cookie, youd understand.
🙂 Its a question of Mekomo V’Shayto. Perhaps this sale is taking place at the Siyum Hashas.June 25, 2013 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #962463
GAW- i hear.June 25, 2013 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #962464
rebdoniel – the same rambam that says that also says that one who works should spend 3 hours a day working and 9 hours a day learning (will ask husband for exact location of that quote if you’d like) – find me non-kollel guys in this day & age who actually do that.
Besides for that, it’s you and several others in this forum versus all the main gedolim in the last 50 years!! I have heard that it’s a horaas sha’ah in order for torah to survive in our generation(s) before mashiach since it’s become such a “filthy” world out there, but even if I “heard wrong” I don’t believe we have enough personal daas torah to argue with some of the greatest torah minds of the last generation or two who surely know what the torah would say is best for our generation, and they surely know all the sources you quoted better that you & I. Agreed it is not for everybody, and that some pathetic people (not the gedolim) clearly push their agendas in ways that cannot be called proper middos or good chinuch (and often sadly quite the opposite) but that’s not to say the idea isn’t correct for those who could pull it offJune 25, 2013 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #962465
dveykus613: May I stsrt by saying that I admire you very much. You have sacrificed a lot in life and I just hope that your husband is thankful to you and that he will make you and his familiy proud.
That said, you pointed to the main argument in this discussion (BTW- your quote about nine and three refers to the shemonei esreh where chassidim spend nine hours davening and three hours doing their daily work) Very few people actually want kollel banned. This is nonsensical. What many people complain about-as you can see from this blog-is that every Moshe, Chaim and Mechel must learn in kollel and not just for a year or two but his whole life! That system clearly is irresponsible and goes against what has been tsaught for millenia by our Tannoim,Amoroim and rtishonim.
And then the ones who actually support these Mosdos get rejected in yeshiva and then approached- very cynically- in later life, for money. This is where the resentment comes in.
As far as your quote about our present chachomim-I am not going to enter into a new argument about emunas chachomim but you must know that all the chassidische rebbes and groups are very ambivelant about this and they had to be dragged into accepting the kollel system. Hhassidim,by and large, go to work and contribute. SO, it depends who your chochom is.
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