About the Government of Israel, I do shudder

Home Coffeeroom Decaffeinated Coffee About the Government of Israel, I do shudder

Viewing 120 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
  • #609810

    Shraga18
    Member

    First let me preface by saying I live in Israel, I work and I pay taxes. And obviously I’m on the internet. So I’m not your garden-variety fanatical kanoi.

    I’ve been leaving here close to twenty years, and this is the first time I feel the State/government of Israel is really trying to actively destroy yiddishkeit.

    Not a week goes by without some new idea from the government to try and destroy our way of life. Last week (maybe the week before) the Health ministry FORBADE health clinics in chareidi neighborhoods to have separate entrances for men and women, or even to have separate hours.

    Yesterday, our new Sar Hadatot, Naftali Bennet, met with a Conservative delegation, praising them and making it clear to them that they will no longer be excluded from the religious equation in Israel.

    What’s next? Is this the beginning of the end for religious Jews in Eretz Yisrael? Will this government actually manage to drive us away?

    I’m sad.

  • #964100

    littlefishy
    Member

    Jews will never be eliminated, we’ve lasted this long with the help of Hashem. You don’t have to worry, just stay stubborn.

  • #964101

    truthsharer
    Member

    Did he also take away your lollipop?

    None of your instances are bad, I fail to see why you’re getting worked up.

  • #964102

    Regarding the separate entrances for men and women, that is merely an example of implementing integration and equality between genders, something the United States has had for many years. It would be unconstitutional for a public clinic to have separate hours or entrances in the U.S., especially since blacks were treated in very much the same way, with separate water fountains, theaters, separate entrances to restaurants, and seating on busses. why is it okay for that to happen in Israel but not America?

  • #964103

    temimus
    Member

    rationalfrummie,

    In the U.S. it is completely legal for a health clinic to choose to have separate entrances for men and women. Wedding halls all over the place do so. The Israeli government is targeting Chareidi health clinics like this in order to force their worldview upon us.

  • #964104

    akuperma
    Participant

    “rationalfrummie” – actually separate entrances or clincs for men and women would be quite legal in the United States – unlike some countries, virtually all hospital rooms are single sex — bathrooms and changing rooms in public facilities are always single sex – the standard of religious accomodation is that an employer or service provider can not be ordered to accomodate religious practices if it creates a “de minimis” cost, but that such accomodation is allowed and is generally considered praiseworthy — when a university agreed to accomodate Muslims with separate swimming, the objection was based rather clearly on hatred of Islam, not on any gender based theories. Remember Israel is a country reknown for all sorts of things of the type we can’t discuss here (such as “recruiting” young women from other countries to do such things for pay that we can’t talk about in proper company – and advertsing the fact to attract tourists). It’s not about status of women – it’s about hatred of Bnei Torah.

    it should be understand that the rules against gender separation reflect not a desire for sexual equality but are based solely on hatred and bigotry against frum Jews – based on what we’ve seen elsewhere we can expect that this bigotry will probably evolve into much stronger measures to reduce the number of hareidim (perhaps following the proverbial czarist formula – assimilate a third, kill a third, and convince a third to leave the country).

  • #964105

    I’ve been leaving here close to twenty years, and this is the first time I feel the State/government of Israel is really trying to actively destroy yiddishkeit.

    Not Yiddishkeit, but Charaidism. Halacha has no issue with having the same waiting room for both men and women.

    Can you blame them? Charaidism (as shown in RBS, Yerushalyim, Beitar, etc.) is trying to destroy the secular way of life by force in many parts of Israel.

    I do think this would have never happened if the Charaidim would have decided to visit the infidel with explanatory pamphlets instead of spitting, passing laws to exclude and burning busses. Once you decide to not “live and let live” (and yes, that is even if they walk though “your” neighborhood), expect others to fight back.

  • #964106

    benignuman
    Participant

    rationalfrummie,

    Racial segregration and gender segregration are different. the Supreme Court has recognized that there are valid reasons to segregrate the genders (otherwise we would have to have unisex bathrooms!). Furthermore there is a difference between laws requiring the segregation and private businesses doing it voluntarily because their clientele, from both genders, prefer it that way.

    That some communities have stricter mores on interactions between genders is hardly surprising. There is a very good chance that a Clinic in New Square that had separate entrances and separate hours for men and women would be held legal.

  • #964107

    Shraga18,

    As someone living in Israel and in a similar situation as you, I totally agree with you. I have two frum brother in laws in the army who agree that this government is doing all in it’s power to erase Torah!

    I don’t think that our brothers in the diaspora are ABLE to understand the magnitude of what is happening here. To them what is wrong with X, Y or Z? But the problem is, the entire picture that is evolving here. The incitement that is going on here against the Frum Jews is simply unbelievable.

    Rationalfrummie- You write:

    “why is it okay for that to happen in Israel but not America?”

    For the simple reason that that is what the people being served by the clinic want. If you would have it in Williamsburg for the Satmar community would the government have a problem with it? Would the supreme court say it is illegal? It is simply a matter of supply and demand.

  • #964108

    truthsharer
    Member

    Just make sure not to have an emergency during opposite hours.

    Maybe the Israeli government is frummer than you and acting as a push-back to your irrational and assur chumrahs.

  • #964109

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    We will outlive them

  • #964110

    Gavra at Work,

    Yes Halacha has no problem with men and women sitting in the same room but at the same time if that is what people want then why not/ after all non charidim do not go to the clinics the charidim go to. I find it much more disturbing to go to a secular clinic with my kids and be forced to watch TV because there is nowhere(!) to sit without a screen in front of your face but does anyone stop that?

    Also, most Charaidim do not spit, burn busses or pass laws to exclude(I would like an example for that one) in fact I find your post here and in other places most offensive in generalizing the Chardai population. sort of like “if all Jews were like you I wouldn’t hate Jews”. I have relatives whose children learn in the school who had a girl spat on and they are quite clear (as the majority of the parent population in the school) that these are extremists that do not reflect the majority of the Charaidim.

    And yes they are trying to destroy Yiddishkeit – note what the Dati Leumi Rabbis and head of Yeshivot are saying!

  • #964111

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    shraga18 and grow up already: Did I miss something in recent weeks? Has the Israeli government forced everyone to eat “chazzir”? Has it passed a law forcing people to work on shabbos? or maybe it has confiscated every one’s tefillin? Can you please enlighten me where this apocalyptic view comes from?

  • #964112

    Grow up Already: You missed the entire point of my post, so I will restate it. The non-Charaidi (including many Dati, including most of the populace (even if not those beholden to the Charaidim)) feel seriously threatened by the “power” of the Charaidim, and as the Charaidim exersize that power (by creating exclusionary towns such as Beitar and parts of Bait Shemesh, funding schools, special “funding” for large families which is almost exclusivly aimed at Charaidim, etc.) the non Charaidim are fighting back. This is what happens in a war, one side (usually) doesn’t roll over and agree to die. When you start up, sometimes you get kicked in the “ham and eggs”. The Charaidim should have expected this when they got dependent on government funding and started crowding others out.

    I have relatives whose children learn in the school who had a girl spat on and they are quite clear (as the majority of the parent population in the school) that these are extremists that do not reflect the majority of the Charaidim.

    No one claims they are not extremists. So what? Since they are not policed by the Charaidim, they (and by extension, the whole) are still a threat to non-Charaidim.

    It’s like suicide bombers or price tag attacks. Until the group does something about them, the entire group gets painted as being (or harboring) extremism.

  • #964113

    Any reason why my response is still in limbo?

  • #964114

    Shraga18
    Member

    truthsharer, gavra and ROB,

    In one word: shoelaces. Vehameivin yavin.

  • #964115

    Mammele
    Participant

    I’ve seen so called “segregated” waiting rooms in NY. I don’t think there was a sign, just a SMALLER waiting area on the side where most men & bochurim VOLUNTARILY sat. No woman would object — they are given the bigger space as more women here take their kids to doctors/dentists. If it’s similar in Israel they are definitely motivated by an ant-religious agenda.

  • #964116

    Um, how about the recent court decision that will crack down on supermarkets that want to stay open on shabbos? Anybody hear about that?

  • #964117

    interjection
    Member

    Mammele not the same. They have entirely separate hours.

    If anything I think the chareidim should be happy. Now if a 13 year old boy is sick and needs a parent to accompany him to the doctor, his mother can take him and his father doesn’t need to take away time from learning.

  • #964118

    Toi
    Member

    feminist- thats not really due to religious considerations. the courts decision is based on the complaints of smaller business owners who cant afford the knas of staying open, while the larger stores can be michallel shabbos and cheshbon the knas into their budget. furthermore, its not really a recent decision, just a pledge to enforce an already-existing law. honestly, if noone would complain about the fines, the court wouldnt give two hoots about the situation. they dont care about the chillul shabbos at all.

  • #964119

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Toi is correct. It’s more likely that Tel Aviv will allow stores to open on Shabbos altogether than that they’ll increase the fine to a level that would hurt the big stores.

  • #964120

    Shraga18: “Shoelaces” is a Din in Yiddishkeit, not Charaidism. Perhaps it includes a Minhag that the entire Klal Yisroel accepted. If you believe that only Israeli Charaidim are considered to be Klal Yisroel (and I am certain that there are those in Israel who hold that way L’Halacha), then you are correct.

  • #964121

    truthsharer
    Member

    Shraga18, shoelaces my foot. If you think this is a shmad issue, then I really have to worry about yahadus in 2013. It’s a terrible shame when people make up halachos and when other people don’t go for it, they get labeled as evil.

    Having separate hours in a health clinic is moronic.

    And, FTR, if you ask anyobody living in Israel, the past health minister had been a disaster for Israel. If you’re going to be super-Charedi and make up laws, then don’t go into politics and don’t become health minister.

  • #964122

    charliehall
    Member

    ‘The non-Charaidi (including many Dati, including most of the populace (even if not those beholden to the Charaidim)) feel seriously threatened by the “power” of the Charaidim’

    Had the charedim not abused their power this situation might be different. Datim are furious over the disrespect that the Charedi rabbis have expressed towards their institutions and leaders. I’m sorry, but HaBayit HaYehudi is NOT a party of gentiles, and Rabbi David Stav is a distinguished talmid chacham supported by the leading gedolim of the Religious Zionist world. And the charedi leadership on the conversion issue has been a shanda, putting Tropper in charge of conversions for the entire world, and endorsing Rav Sherman’s outrageous complete rewriting of halachah to pasuling massive numbers of conversions without investigations.

  • #964123

    charliehall
    Member

    That said, the budget cuts to Torah institutions do cause me to shudder. DL institutions are getting hit just as bad. The DL and charedim ought to be allies here but the acrimony between the two parties is so great that I doubt this will happen. There have been overtures from some DL rabbis, but the charedi leaders don’t seem to be much interested.

  • #964125

    Bump

  • #964126

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Why did the court rule that stores have to close for shabbat? Isn’t the court mostly hiloni?

  • #964127

    Gavra at work,

    Most Charidim denounce the extremists ,you just don’t here about it in the papers because it is not popular. It is much more popular to talk about those crazy charidim who spit. And how are we supposed to police them? by getting into fist fights with them? by spiting on them? by throwing eggs at them?

    You can police them as well as me and there is a reason you don’t do it!

    It is beyond me why you feel so threatened by Charidiam. Did I miss something the Charedi members of Knesset did these past years?

    Yes, the charadim do have exclusionary towns, I am not sure what that has to do with power as most of those towns were set up when the charadiem were not in the coalition. Anyways, no-one wants the Charidim in Ashdod or Kiryat Yovel or Beit Shemesh. they are quite happy the charidim have their own towns.

    Where is the special funding? – I would like to go get some as I have a large Charedi family.

    the Ponavaz Rav said we shouldn’t rely totally on the funding of the government as they will boot us one day so now his ????? is coming true. And believe it or not, it doesn’t bother me as much as the anti charidi attitude out there. did you hear that there is a proposed law that you cannot have separate seating at weddings and someone who enforces it will be subject to a year in jail? or the fact that we should be forced to donate our organs in a case of brain death (against Halach) unless we state otherwise? even if our family objects.

    IS that is what you want in a Jewish state?

    I am sorry you see this as a war on you as a dati leumi person because it isn’t(!) I grow up in the charadi system and have kids in the charadi system and that is not what they are hearing

    Throw rocks, spit and hate the DL) In any case you say it is a war so now you know exactly how we feel except you see it as a war against you. WE SEE THIS AS A WAR AGAINST TORAH!!!!

  • #964128

    The law is that the stores must close for shabbos. The Supreme Court ruled that stricter enforcement is needed, commenting that they were not making a statement of religion but merely enforcing the law.

  • #964129

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I’m suprised such a law isn’t being challenged by those who want freedom from religion in Israel, like Meretznikim. While a law enforcing sabbath observance does promote one aspect of Jewish identity for the medina, it is also obviously at odds with religious freedom and can be seen as coercive.

    In Tel Aviv, commerce, transportation, etc. are notorious for operating on Shabbat.

  • #964130

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m suprised such a law isn’t being challenged by those who want freedom from religion in Israel, like Meretznikim. While a law enforcing sabbath observance does promote one aspect of Jewish identity for the medina, it is also obviously at odds with religious freedom and can be seen as coercive.

    1. I’m sure it is.

    2. Israel doesn’t have our 1st amendment.

  • #964131

    rebdoniel
    Member

    True, they don’t, but they like to fancy themselves a Western-style democracy, where religious coercion is obviously not seen as desired. One can argue, though, as I would, that laws restricting public commerce on sabbath (Israeli sumptuary/blue laws) do promote a positive atmosphere (it is accepted widely that every society needs one day to rest, and for Christians, certainly in America, Sunday Blue Laws promoted a sense of rest and were an effort to retain a public religious consciousness that is missing nowadays) and uphold the Jewish character of the state.

  • #964132

    Yitz46
    Member

    The irony of the situation is hard to miss. If Israel is a Jewish State — and is seen as responsible for promoting halacha and sponsoring Yeshivas etc –shouldn’t all its citizens act with Zrezus to contribute to the survival of this state? Of course, Israel is seen as only a medina, and one that is not 100% (or even 50%, or 25%) kosher by many charedim. So why contribute to such an enterprise? One really can’t have it both ways: (1) Expecting the state to promote and sponsor Yiddishkeit; (2) Refusing to participate in the defense and economic health of the state because it is not Heilig. Having said that, there are better ways for the state to proceed than it has been doing. One can’t change a situation that was built on political deals overnight. Nor is it right to attack all Charedim for proceeding on a path that was agreed upon for years. Finally, the business of Tzava is in many respects symbolic and designed with less than up and up intentions — do they really think a Golani or Shaldag or 669 or any sayeret unit is screaming for a Yeshiva guy? Probably not.

  • #964133

    HaKatan
    Participant

    ROB, you have already stated on these boards that you would not renounce your idolatry of Zionism even if proof were presented to you that your eigel is treif, and it was. So anyone reading your leitzanus post above should understand your “qualifications”.

    Two of your fellow-countrymen who reside under Zionist rule have chosen to point out in this thread to their fellow Jews that the Zionists are turning up the heat in their 100+ year-old quest to turn Jews and our Judaism into, CH”V, Zionist warrior “Hebrews” and Zionism.

    As valuable as their posts are to people who don’t live there, they’re also not the only ones who recognize this about Zionism (besides for, of course, people who were not deceived by Zionist lies and fallacies in the first place).

    I read an article the other day that recounted yet another horrifying story about how a chareidi man joined the IDF in a chareidi unit and the Zionists convinced him to “temporarily” go to another non-chareidi unit so he could advance. After the inevitable yeridos occurred, along with the (immediate) consequences from those yeridos, the poor wife of this man went to a Torah-observant rabbi crying that “the State of Israel has betrayed me”, which, of course, the State was happy to do as they shmaded yet another Jew and created yet more tzaar in Klal Yisrael.

    As the Brisker Rov wrote, and as a study of Zionism’s tragic history and current events would easily indicate, the Zionists shmad – not because they need a State; rather, they need a State in order to shmad.

    Yet people actually believe in Zionist heresy contrary to the Torah giants of yesteryear’s dire warnings and severest condemnation and the hindsight of history and power of modern communication to inform on current events.

    As he also said (as I recall), if one seeks to understand the eigel (haZahav), one need only observe (people’s relationship to) Zionism; it is the same matter.

  • #964134

    BS”D

    Grow up Already: I’m trying to explain the non-Charaidi position, not my own. If it were up to me, the entire country would be very different, including no drafting of Charaidim (or anyone else who doesn’t want to be in the army). Unfortunately I do not live EY, and with the current political and sociological situation, neither do I feel it possible to do so (and I hate to say it, it sounds so Meraglim-like :-(, so I have nothing to do with your “civil” war.

    And thank you for the quote of the Ponavaz(er) Rav. I’m not the only one who says taking Israeli money hurts the Charaidim (and is a large reason why there is currently “a war against Torah”, and why there is such a lack of Kavod HaTorah by Shomrei Torah in Israel).

  • #964135

    Where is the special funding? – I would like to go get some as I have a large Charedi family.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/175341/Litzman%3A-PM-Netanyahu-is-Also-Responsible-for-Child-Allowance-Cuts.html

  • #964136

    Sorry, it isn’t only for Charadiem. Plenty of Dati leumi and even Many Sephardi Chilonim have large families. Is there anything exclusively for Charediem as you implied?

  • #964137

    And I would like to point out that as you don’t live in Israel you rely on the press and have no idea of what is ACTUALLY going on. As I said before unless you actually live here you are NOT ABLE to understand what is going on.

    BTW, today the finance committee was against the proposed cuts (which will probably go into effect anyway) because it effects many Chilonim as well. see the link you sent me! And while you are at it read the last paragraph.

  • #964138

    Also FYI, 40% of Charadi males work and pay taxes in Israel. and 80% of female Charedim work and pay taxes. So to say we don’t contribute at all is ridiculous.

    And comparing The charadiem to the Arabs who harbor terrorist is really below the belt!

  • #964139

    BTW, today the finance committee was against the proposed cuts (which will probably go into effect anyway) because it effects many Chilonim as well. see the link you sent me! And while you are at it read the last paragraph.

    That is my point as well. It is a war (and even Labor MKs see it!). The question you have to answer (I, as you point out, don’t live in EY (and I believe I have the answer, as above)) is why do your fellow Yidden (even those who are Lomdei Torah and Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos!!!) hate you so much, and what can you do to stop it? As you now see, having a large section of the country hating you is hazardous for funding, let alone for Kavod HaTorah & Kavod Shomayim.

    Sorry, it isn’t only for Charadiem. Plenty of Dati leumi and even Many Sephardi Chilonim have large families. Is there anything exclusively for Charediem as you implied?

    Of course not. And the districting law in NY was not specifically tailored for Kiryas Yoel.

    Who pushed for it & who cares the most if it gets removed?

  • #964140

    And comparing The charadiem to the Arabs who harbor terrorist is really below the belt!

    And comparing the charaidim to price tag terrorists is above the belt? All of them have a “Sad HaShave”, like it or not.

  • #964141

    temimus
    Member

    The haters have to stop hating. Those being hated don’t have to drop their hashkofos in order to stop being hated. Especially sinec they’ve been haters forever; it isn’t as if something came up that caused them to become haters.

    And what’s wrong with specifically tailoring a districting law for KY? Is it because it can’t be done for a township consisting of Jews – but it can be done for a township consisting of non-Jews. Districting is done all the time tailored to African-American interests and/or the interests of other general townships. Jews are less?

  • #964142

    The haters have to stop hating. Those being hated don’t have to drop their hashkofos in order to stop being hated. Especially sinec they’ve been haters forever; it isn’t as if something came up that caused them to become haters.

    Yes, but if it is the actions of the group that is causing the hating, first the actions should stop. For (an extreme, unsimilar, but pointed) example, did anyone question why African Americans in the 1920s hated the KKK? Was the answer to “stop hating”? And yes, if your ideology tells you that many Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos have “been haters forever”, then you are correct. There is not much to discuss whith someone who has always hated you (but has continuously given you money….)

    And what’s wrong with specifically tailoring a districting law for KY? Is it because it can’t be done for a township consisting of Jews – but it can be done for a township consisting of non-Jews. Districting is done all the time tailored to African-American interests and/or the interests of other general townships. Jews are less?

    I didn’t say it was wrong (I actually agree with the original law which was specific for KY & should have been constitutional). You admit though it was done for KY (even though the final “law” did not mention Jews or KY)? So too here, the extra child subsidies were passed for the Charaidim, even if the law did not say “Charaidi” (and even if others can benefit). And now that they want to remove it, Gimmel is the one who is complaining.

  • #964143

    Most Frum Yidden do not hate Charaidim, Certainly those who are Lomdei Torah and Shomeri Shabbos don’t. They might hate the extremists (and perhaps rightfully) but not the Charadaim as a whole.

    The funding is what bothers us the least! (BTW the funding is only a very small fraction of the Israeli budget)

    Just let us live our lives as we see fit. Don’t force us to sit through women singing (the hesder boys in the army) or to teach my children English (BTW I send them privately but if I don’t want to?) or tell me how many children to have (and no, I don’t expect the government to support them) As long as I am not harming anyone why cant you let me live in peace?

    You claim you have the answer but, I am afraid that while we do have a lot to work on , your answer is a very small fraction. For as long as there are Yidden there will be anti Semitism and as long as there are Frum Yidden there will be hatred towards the Frum Yidden.(for the same basic reasons) This has been, unfortunately, proved throughout history.

    ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????!

  • #964144

    truthsharer
    Member

    What school district was created solely for African-Americans?

  • #964145

    No isn’t above belt.

    And I fail to see the ?? ????? here. Charadiem hate the extremists as well and have NOTHING to do with them. you are placing us all in one box.

  • #964146

    Also FYI, 40% of Charadi males work and pay taxes in Israel. and 80% of female Charedim work and pay taxes. So to say we don’t contribute at all is ridiculous.

    I agree (even if it was 0%, as Torah is a Magen). However, I’m not the one that you have to convince. Even if you do convince the non-Charaidim, if you agree working is a positive (which is what this specific point argues), you would have to explain why having more workers is an issue and why Gimmel is against it.

  • #964147

    No isn’t above belt.

    And I fail to see the ?? ????? here. Charadiem hate the extremists as well and have NOTHING to do with them. you are placing us all in one box.

    Most Arabs hate suicide bombers

    Most DL don’t like the price tag attacks.

    Most Charaidim don’t like the spitters.

    None the less, all three are identified by their extreme elements. It is not “fair”, but life isn’t fair either.

  • #964148

    What school district was created solely for African-Americans?,

    Voting districts certainly are. That was the point of the recent Supreme Court ruling on the 1965 act.

  • #964149

    temimus
    Member

    Any all black school district (which exist in many urban areas) was as much created for blacks as an all Jewish school district (i.e. KY) was created for Jews. The point being just because a town or school district happens to have a demographic of all the same ethnicity (i.e. black or Jewish) does not mean there is anything untoward about having a school district there.

  • #964150

    No one said Gimmel is against working people. Where do you get that from? (Remember I live in EY , am part of the Charadai community and even vote Gimmel)What they are against is going to the army because what goes on there is ??? (I have two brother in laws in the army, one of them in a charade unit)

    Also most arabs are not against suicide bombers (read the PA school books and curriculum) and The dati Leumi movement is not judged but the price tag elements.

    Please get your facts right

  • #964151

    truthsharer
    Member

    So what school district was created specifically to have a majority black demographic?

  • #964152

    What they are against is going to the army because what goes on there is ??? (I have two brother in laws in the army, one of them in a charade unit)

    Unfortunatly, that is not what they have communicated to the outside world (or the Israeli public). Let them come out and say “We are willing to go to the army as part of Nachal Charaidi (segregated with no Shmad, even L’Shitascha) at age 21”. (Wait, that is what the government is proposing).

    Also most arabs are not against suicide bombers (read the PA school books and curriculum) and The dati Leumi movement is not judged but the price tag elements.

    OK. Can’t argue with someone who believes everyone wants to blow him up. The settlers are judged that way, at least here in the states (I imagine the Charaidi world may not, due to their own issues with extremists as you point out).

  • #964153

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    GrowUpAlready: You only have to look at what you write to realize why so many people are pushing back and fighting the chareidi dictatortship. You write that what goes on in the army is “shmad”. Do you truly think that any sane person would even believe that outrageous and ridiculous accusation? You write that this is a “war against Torah”. The hyperbole is so “over the top” that even the ones who may be sympathetic to some of the chareidi arguments dismiss the chareidim as unreliable, unrealistic and impossible to deal with.

    When you and the extreme chareidi leadership that you support would come down to this earth, maybe we could talk then! Till then, we shall try doing what we feel is right.

  • #964154

    GAW and ROB

    You REALLY have NO IDEA of what goes on here. even the nachal hacaradi is being forced to do thing against Halacha (again I have inside information from my brother in law)the promises made before joining the army are not kept to because when in the army we can change the rules whenever we want we don’t have to keep promises. The Rabbi who started the Nachal hacaradi has come out against it because promises are not kept! and BTW the hesder units have the same issues.

    ROB I assume you too don’t live in Israel. When you move here and go to the army – we can talk again.

  • #964155

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Grwo up Already: NO, I do not live in Israel now but there are seven million Jews living there- kein jirbu- and I just don’t believe for one moment that there are jackbooted soldiers going around israel making you eat chazzir or ordering you to smoke on shabbos or anything else you may say.I do not believe it for one moment. And quoting anonymous sources making vague accusations is no way of proving your point.

  • #964156

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I doubt that hayalei tzahal are being “forced” to violate halakha. The army even goes out of their way to get Haredi kosher food for those who won’t accept normal kosher food.

  • #964157

    ok you don’t have to believe me.

    Halacha is not only things like eating chazzir. It is being forced to hear women singing and not being allowed to daven Mincha just because that is what the commander decided and yes being told to do things that are mechalal Shabbos (agreed the commander thought it wasn’t mechalal Shabbos but even when told he refused to budge). and no the army does not go out of the way to get mehadrin food. Many soldier in the nachal were stuck with nothing for Shabbos and when the charadaim from Kiryat Sefer got organized to get then food for Shabbos the commander decided they cannot take the food. (this story was in the charadi press at the time)

    But then again I can’t make you believe something you don’t want to.

  • #964158

    HaKatan
    Participant

    So, in a nutshell, the Zionists are up to shmad as they always have been (even if they do provide kosher food), and the MO and “Religious Zionists” are either in denial or worse about even the latest Zionist shmad, because the respective MO and RZ theologies require belief in Zionism as part of their faith.

    As the Brisker Rov said, “The Zionists’ state is the Satan’s greatest achievement since the eigel”.

  • #964159

    Toi
    Member

    ROB- it appears that the fact that seven million jews, ken jirbu, living in EY is areason the army must be interested in allowing chayalim to keep mitzvos while on duty. you heard info from someone who’s BIL is in nachal chareidi, yet tou refuse to believe him. a guy in my shul grew up frum/yeshivish, and then went hardcore off the D. He still makes fun of bochurim and mocks RYs. he laughs about frum shtussim and denigrates black hatters. he was in nachal chareidi while he was totally anti religious, and he openly told the members of our shul that the way the army presents N’CH as an option for frum people is a joke. wake up. take your head out of the sand. maybe take off for a few weeks and check out what people look like after N”CH. or, better yet, move here, stop bluffing, and join the IDF. and stay frum.

  • #964160

    Grow up Already, HaKatan:

    Once again, that is not the argument that you are giving in the press. I believe you when you say being in the Army is hazardous to spiritual health (Why is an interesting question, and I have posted about it before (see: Rav Dessler & Chinuch)). According to you both, the argument the Charaidim should be advancing is that we are objectors to the Army/State because it forces us against our religion (and internationally, that is a better argument than “Torah protects us and them”).

    P.S. to Grow Up: If even Nachal Charaidi is Shmad, what right do your BIL have to attend? They should have to move or kill themselves rather than attend.

  • #964161

    charliehall
    Member

    ” not being allowed to daven Mincha just because that is what the commander decided”

    Actually, the halachah is that if your employer doesn’t give you the time off, it is asur to daven minchah! You can probably make it up with tashlumin; consult an IDF rav.

    “being told to do things that are mechalal Shabbos”

    IDF being mechalah Shabat in many if not most cases would be pikuach nefesh. We learned this one the hard way with the Maccabees as they originally decided not to fight on Shabat, and got massacred.

    “the army does not go out of the way to get mehadrin food”

    So eat the non-mehadrin food! When you are in the IDF you no longer follow the halachic rulings of the community you are from; you follow the IDF’s rulings. And you don’t call your former rav to ask whether you should obey an order.

    That said, the IDF really should do more to respect the religious traditions of all soldiers. Even though many rabbis (including mine) are meikel on kol isha, there was no excuse for prohibiting frum soldiers from quietly excusing themselves when a female singer was performing. Ten minutes for a minchah minyan should rarely be an issue unless someone is shooting at us. And Rabbinut Mehadrin food is readily available throughout Israel; why can’t the IDF offer it? The IDF has well qualified Orthodox rabbis; why can’t it follow them?

  • #964162

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Charlie:

    I don’t concede your halachic opinions, but even if they are true, I agree with you that the more important point is as you make in your post, and I’ll embellish:

    Don’t you think a govt that cared about its citizens and cared to allow them their religious observance, would make such reasonable accommodation within the context of a forced 3 year army service?

    To the contrary, they try to make it hard to keep halacha there. When the kol isha issue came up–they made it a womens rights issue to force them to listen.

    I think I reasonably do not believe that they are ready to accommodate us in the army in good faith.

  • #964163

    Toi
    Member

    Charlie- I think GUA’s post clearly indicates that the soldiers are forced to give up on religious practices based solely on the whims of a commanding officer.

  • #964164

    Gavra,

    Could be that is a better argument. It is being told to the press however they cut and paste as they see fit.

    My brother in law is in Shacahr.(a unit for married charadi men who work in the army offices, not in the field, and go home at the end of the day and are home shabbosim) The nachel Charadai examples were all in the press and from friends of his. My brother in law would drop the army in a second if that is what Rav Steinman tells him to do so.

    In the meantime anyone who asks him if they should join the Sachar unit he tells them no because of all the problems he has encountered and that is even before the current anti charadi theme.

    Charliehill you write

    “When you are in the IDF you no longer follow the halachic rulings of the community you are from; you follow the IDF’s rulings. And you don’t call your former rav to ask whether you should obey an order”

    And is the ESSENCE of the issue at heart! Charadaim believe Torah and what their Rav says come first not what the army says…..

  • #964165

    truthsharer
    Member

    And the US has the same rules. A frum person got in trouble for not taking off his yarmulka and SCOTUS ruled against him.

    Should we now protest the US Armed Forces?

  • #964166

    wastingtime
    Member

    anti semites bec they r jewishjews r the worst jew haters

  • #964167

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Charlie, your positions seem very difficult to understand, though I will limit my comments to a few of those. Presumably, you arrived at these strange ideas because of MO/RZ’s blasphemous merger of Zionism and lihavdil Judaism.

    Pirkei Avos says “Asei Licha Rav”. It does not say to allow the IDF to replace or supersede your Rav.

    Regarding Chilul Shabbos, even “Religious Zionist” Rabbanim, never mind the IDF, have made psakim regarding chilul Shabbos and pikuach nefesh than have been roundly condemned by great rabbis outside Zionist circles.

  • #964168

    truthsharer
    Member

    GAA, when you’re in the army, you can’t follow your own personal chumrahs.

  • #964169

    HaKatan
    Participant

    truthsharer:

    There are a number of differences between the IDF and, lihavdil, any other army including the US army.

    One key difference is that the IDF is mandatory. So if they are requiring everyone to serve, then they have to reasonably accommodate everyone’s religious beliefs.

    Another key difference is that Israel lies that it is a “Jewish State”. So, to make that lie more believable to the uninformed, they should be accommodating religious Jews (of all stripes).

    But Israel is a Zionist state, not a Jewish state. And Zionism is shmad. See above.

  • #964170

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Grow up Already, Toi and others: from the items that you mention , you can see how ludicrous the uncompromising stand of some chareidis is. Charlehall wrote eloquently abou the (non) halachic issues that you mention, Not only are they insignificant (no mincah on time? hsve you learned hilchos krias sheam and wha the Poalim do?)but they are in total contrast to the truth (how many photos do we have of jews davening in talis and tefillin even as they are preparing for battle?). You bring up the non-mehadrim food- well, which hechsher are you talking about? Badatz? Chassam Sofer? Agudah? And can’t you even eat cheese, eggs, bread? Preposterous.

    Anyway- I am not here to go through the whole litany of arguments. Can there be improvement? Of course! But, until the chareidim show that they are part and parcel of the population and shoulder their responsiblities, why should the rest of the tsibbur bent over backwards-as they will be kickied in the teeth anyway?

  • #964171

    rebdoniel
    Member

    On kol isha, the psak of Rav David Bigman, Hakham Avraham Shammah, and quite a few others is that kol isha is entirely contextual.

  • #964172

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    When you are in the IDF you no longer follow the halachic rulings of the community you are from; you follow the IDF’s rulings. And you don’t call your former rav to ask whether you should obey an order.

    You’ve just made a better case for not joining the army than I ever could have.

  • #964173

    I didn’t know that adherence to Halacha = “ludicrous”

    And yes Halacha is uncompromising.

  • #964174

    truthsharer
    Member

    rebdoniel, you can also add the Seridei Aish to the kol isha ruling.

    DY, halacha and chumrah do not mean the same thing.

    GAA, not necessarily in this case, but I wouldn’t say halacha is uncompromising. That’s very black and white, and not true.

  • #964175

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    DY, halacha and chumrah do not mean the same thing.

    Of course not, but that has little to do with the discussion.

    No matter your halachic opinions, it is way out of line for someone to be forced to change from whom he seeks halachic guidance because it’s inconvenient.

  • #964176

    rebdoniel
    Member

    And Rav Soloveitchik.

  • #964177

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Grow up Already: I did not say that adherence to halacha is “ludicrous”. Please don’t misrepresent my posts. I said that “the uncompromising stand of the chareidim” is ludicrous. And I illusrated it by showing how extreme some of these positions are. Lastly, What do you mean by “halacha” is uncompromising? No attempt to be “meikel”? (koach de-hetira odif) No attempt to have a “pshoro” (compromise)? No attempt to find a way that thr tsibbur can live with something? (“gezeirah sh’eim hatsibbur jochoim la-amod bo). Your comments are ludicrous.

  • #964178

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    No attempt to be “meikel”? (koach de-hetira odif)

    Do you have a source for your understanding of koach d’heteira odif?

  • #964179

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: See “Bei-t-zah” 2b in Rashi for a very succinct explanation and this klal is mentioned many other times in Shas.

  • #964180

    Toi
    Member

    ROB- i hear, so pictures are more convincing then first hand testimony of what the army allows/forces people to do. thats ridiculous. zionist propaganda machine.

  • #964181

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    TOI: “eineh domeh shemiah leri-ah”

  • #964182

    Toi
    Member

    ROB- are you high? the idf lets you see pictures to enforce the way they want you to perceive them. first hand testimony is what they dont want you to hear. dumb dumb.

  • #964183

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Toi- In general, I would not continue this fruitless argument but I’ll do it once more: You don’t think there are tens of thousands-probably hundreds of thousands- of good jews who were perfectly well treated in the Israeli army? You think that the IDF sends around hundreds of photographers who then fake those pictures? So, that you do not believe but the testimony of one solitary voice who may have encountered an isolated case of intolerance -that paints the whole IDF as evil? Sorry, I don’t buy it.

  • #964184

    Toi
    Member

    No, i dont think so. i think the army systematically, and quite efficiently, i may add, attempts to quash any real keeping of the jewish faith under the jackboot of the idf sellout rabbis. they have a photography unit, for crying out loud. its not one voice, its the voice of those who are ill-treated and still want to fight for religion, not jewish-esque culture. they dont care about judasim. newsflash. they care about zionism. two separate things.

  • #964185

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Toi- You have just perfectly illustrated why anti-zionists and extreme chareidim have engendered so much opposition to their views and stands. Your description of the the IDF is more thsn a caricature, it is a total fabrication. And I think it is scandalous that you even mention the word “jackboot”. Vehamivein jovin.

  • #964186

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    ROB, that’s what I thought, you don’t have one.

    You are learning p’shat in Rash”i wrong. It says it’s easier to be machmir, which is actually a raya that one must do so when in doubt.

  • #964187

    Sam2
    Member

    Truthsharer: The S’ridei Eish’s Heter (which is actually R’ Ezriel Hildesheimer TZ”L’s Heter) would not have applied in the army situation.

  • #964189

    Toi
    Member

    Rob- ya whatever, jovin vijovin. youre saying this from who’s perspective? o right, someone who’s never even seen any of this firsthand. you and your ilk are dangerous to the perpetuation of yiddishkeit, putting zionism and tank units before torah and halachah.

  • #964190

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: ?????????????????????

  • #964191

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Koach d’heteira odif is in no way license to be meikil.

  • #964192

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Toi: WHATEVER.

    DaasYochid: No one is saying anything about a licence to be meikel. What the gemoro clearly indicates is that-if you can find a way to be meikel- you should. THAT is the explanation of “koach deheteirah odif”.

  • #964193

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    No, it’s not. That’s a distortion of the gemara’s intent.

  • #964194

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid; Tell me how YOU learn this klal.

  • #964195

    Sam2
    Member

    rob: Koach D’heteira Adif means it’s easier to be Machmir than Meikel. Hence, we have a right to assume, in certain cases, that the Meikel one is more sure of his opinion. It in no way means to look for Kulos. You’re just wrong here.

  • #964196

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: And, if you still maintain wahtever explanation you concoct, please look at Pesochim 74B and the machlokes Ravinah and Rav Acha and you will see- clear as day- that the gemoro paskens “lekuloh” when possible.

  • #964197

    Sam2
    Member

    ROB: It’s true that, in certain cases, the Gemara Paskens L’kula. The reason for that is what I said. And it still applies in certain cases nowadays. But that doesn’t mean you search for Kulos.

  • #964198

    Sam2
    Member

    rob: For example, the Gemara has a K’lal that when all else is equal you have to go L’chumra. (I don’t remember where it is but the phrase is L’kula Ul’chumra L’chumra Makshinan.)

  • #964199

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    if you still maintain wahtever explanation you concoct

    The gemara means exactly what Sam2 said it does.

    Do you really think I was saying that the rule is we are always machmir? You can’t bring proof from specific cases in which we are meikil; of course we are sometimes meikil. We are also sometimes machmir.

    Bringing “koach d’heteira odif” to support being meikil in general is wrong, and dangerous. In fact, as Sam and I have pointed out, that gemara actually indicates that unless one is certain of his position, he must be machmir.

  • #964200

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Sam2 and DaasYochid: Please!!!

    “koach deheteira odif” means exactly what it says (and Rashi says it explicitly): it is very easy to be ‘machmir’: just say no. However, to be able to be ‘meikel” (and allow something), you need more sources and more understanding and (as Rashi says) you are not AFRAID to be meikel! Hence, the reasoning behind a hetter is more authoritative. And the gemoro calls it “ODIF”-stronger and better! Please do not twist the gemoro and Rashi to your wishes!!

    And please, check Pesochim 74B (that neither of you mentions) and you will see again that the gemoro DOES pasken “lekuloh”, rather than “lechumro”.

  • #964201

    Sam2
    Member

    rob: It is not us twisting the Gemara. You just said the Gemara says exactly what we said. When all else is equal and you have equal major Poskim with one being Meikel and one being Machmir (and the Machmir one doesn’t deny the lenient sources, he just thinks they’re not enough to rely upon) then we can rely on the lenient opinion because all else is equal. That does not mean there is an extralegal permission to distort sources or to be Meikil Shelo K’din. I’m not even sure what you’re arguing. If you say you can be Meikil Shelo K’din, then why isn’t everything Muttar? Just say it is.

  • #964202

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Sam2: Either we speak a different language or we have different ideas about Psak. OBVIOUSLY- if there is no “tsad lehetter” ,one cannot be meikel. You cannot be “mattir bossor vecholov”, for example. HOWEVER, it is clear from the gemoro-in many places!- that relying upon the “meikel” side is better (odif) because its sources and reasoning are more solid. How else do you explain the gemoro in “baitzah 2B”? The gemoro clearly opines that it is better to discuss the issue according to the makillim, because to be meikel is more authoritative than being “machmir”. In other words, the gemoro PREFERS an opinion that is “meikel”. True, not always do we “pasken” like the “meikel”- but it is absolutely clear from the gemoro in many places, that, in halacha, you take the route of the “meikel’-if possible. See Pesochim 74B. See aveilus, see “sefeika d’oraisa’, which is only ossur miderabbonon, etc.

  • #964203

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    And please, check Pesochim 74B (that neither of you mentions)

    I did, and I addressed your erroneous point.

    We argues aveilus already. The fact that there needs to be a rule specifically about aveilus is proof that we don’t have such a rule in general.

    It doesn’t say “kula odif”. It says “koach d’heteira odif”. As Sam points out (it’s really Rash”i), it means you need to be more certain to be meikil, so the meikil perforce is confident in his psak.

  • #964204

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: Actually, from aveilus you can bring the “rayah” at just the opposite: That , in aveilus, the gemoro says that always we go after the “meikel”. WHY? because it is better (odif) to be meikel. Same reasoning as “koach deheteira odif”. ,except by aveilus, we ALWAYS pasken like the meikel, not ncesseraly the case in other parts of halocho.

    You are twisting words when you say that “koach deheteirah odif” deso not mean “kulo odif”. As a matter of fact, it is an even stronger statement- preferring the one who is “meikel”. And Pesochim 74B clearly shows the preference of the gemoro to be “meikel”.

    You are welocme to continue in your illusion that halocho requires chumros. It does not and this can be proven from a multitude of piskei halocho.

  • #964205

    writersoul
    Member

    “And the US has the same rules. A frum person got in trouble for not taking off his yarmulka and SCOTUS ruled against him.”

    It’s funny, they have his yarmulke on display in the First Amendment exhibit at the Newseum in Washington DC (I just saw it). Ironic, because while they made a law permitting it afterward, he did, as you mentioned, lose the case.

  • #964206

    Toi
    Member

    ROB- not paskening likulah and a chumrah are two diferent things.

  • #964207

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    You are welocme to continue in your illusion that halocho requires chumros.

    You’re changing topic now? We weren’t talking about chumros.

  • #964209

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: You are confusing me. I checked back and our conversation started when I responded to GrowupAlready who wrote that halacha is ‘uncompromising” (hence the hardline positions of the chareidim)and I sadi that there plenty of sources that show that halocho is NOT “uncompromising”- and looking to find the “easier’ way out.

    You chimed in and said that ‘when you have no “rayah’ you should be machmir. ON THAT_I answered that you are incorrect and that we find plenty of sources who find that “paskening lekuloh’ is the way to og.

    How am I now changing the subject?

  • #964210

    DaasYochid
    Participant
  • #964211

    Sam2
    Member

    rob: The She’arim Metzuyanim BaHalachah has an excellent Kuntres on K’lalei Hap’sak. It’s in the beginning of Chelek Aleph of the new editions. Look at it. It might clear some of these things up for you.

  • #964212

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    How am I now changing the subject?

    We were discussing paskening l’kula or l’chumra and you brought in keeping a chumra. As Toi pointed out, they’re not the same.

  • #964213

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: Well, you have a better memeory that I. I do not even remember that discussion. However, our positions remain the same. I maintain that the gemoro has a preference for “koach deheteirah”- obviously when there are decent sources. You maintain differently. My souruces are simple and plentiful, whether Baitza 2B (and many other places),Pesochim 74B, the klal that in sefeikos we go lekuloh (certainly in a miderabbonon) and other places. For whatever reason, you and others ignore these sources. That’s ok with me. But don’t expect me to espouse chumors when it clearly is not the ikkar lehalocho.

  • #964214

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    whether Baitza 2B (and many other places),Pesochim 74B,

    Those are not rayos, as discussed (in fact Beitzo 2b indicates the opposite).

    the klal that in sefeikos we go lekuloh (certainly in a miderabbonon)

    Now, we’re getting somewhere. That’s a legit rule, but we must be cautious not to apply it where the poskim don’t. Your implication that it might apply to a d’Oraiso as well is ridiculous, though. You must know the rule that “safek d’Oraisa l’chumra”, but you seem to ignore that one. (That one has its exceptions as well.)

  • #964215

    Toi
    Member

    ROB- please dont “espouse chumors”, it sounds painful.

  • #964216

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: “sofek d’oraisa lechumro” is miderabbonon. Midoraisa, it is lekuloh. And, this has nothing to do with Psak -it has to do with “metzius’- reality. When we have a doubt as to what something is (for example, what is this piece of meat?) then the rabbonon said that ‘sofek d’oraisa lechumro.” We have been discussin how to pasken on certain matters, not what reality it is.

  • #964217

    Sam2
    Member

    rob: You are wrong on two counts. First of all, it’s a Machlokes Rishonim whether Safek D’oraisa is L’chumra Min HaTorah or Mid’rabannan. Second of all, the rules apply in both P’sak and M’tziyus.

  • #964218

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Sam2- you are correct in saying that it is a machlokes horishonim, although I think that most rishonim hold it is miderabbonon. I don’t agree ith you on your second point.There are too many variables in Psak to assert what you are saying.

  • #964219

    Sam2
    Member

    rob: Look throughout the Gemaras. There are clear cases where we split a P’sak for identical cases based on whether the issue is D’oraisa or D’rabannan.

  • #964220

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    The term when used in psak is, “b’shel Torah haloch achar hamachmir”. Gemora A”Z 7b, Ramba”m Mamrim 1:5.

  • #964221

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Sam2- My very erudite son informed me that the Shach- in his major work on Sefeikos,end of joreh deah- paskens like the Rashbo that “sefeika d’oraisa” is lechumroh- and does not pasken like the Rambam who, holds it is only lechumro miderabbonon.

    However, as far as a psak when the doubt is on matters of which halacha to follow- there are multiple variables and “klollim” and it is impossbile to say whether we pasken “lechumoroh” or ‘lekuloh” -regardless whether it is midoirasa or miderbbonon. I doubt there is one size fits all.

  • #964222

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    There are variables, but the baseline is to be meikil for a d’rabbonon and machmir for a d’Oraisa.

Viewing 120 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to RSS Feed For This Article