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First let me preface by saying I live in Israel, I work and I pay taxes. And obviously I’m on the internet. So I’m not your garden-variety fanatical kanoi.
I’ve been leaving here close to twenty years, and this is the first time I feel the State/government of Israel is really trying to actively destroy yiddishkeit.
Not a week goes by without some new idea from the government to try and destroy our way of life. Last week (maybe the week before) the Health ministry FORBADE health clinics in chareidi neighborhoods to have separate entrances for men and women, or even to have separate hours.
Yesterday, our new Sar Hadatot, Naftali Bennet, met with a Conservative delegation, praising them and making it clear to them that they will no longer be excluded from the religious equation in Israel.
What’s next? Is this the beginning of the end for religious Jews in Eretz Yisrael? Will this government actually manage to drive us away?
I’m sad.
Jews will never be eliminated, we’ve lasted this long with the help of Hashem. You don’t have to worry, just stay stubborn.
Did he also take away your lollipop?
None of your instances are bad, I fail to see why you’re getting worked up.
Regarding the separate entrances for men and women, that is merely an example of implementing integration and equality between genders, something the United States has had for many years. It would be unconstitutional for a public clinic to have separate hours or entrances in the U.S., especially since blacks were treated in very much the same way, with separate water fountains, theaters, separate entrances to restaurants, and seating on busses. why is it okay for that to happen in Israel but not America?
rationalfrummie,
In the U.S. it is completely legal for a health clinic to choose to have separate entrances for men and women. Wedding halls all over the place do so. The Israeli government is targeting Chareidi health clinics like this in order to force their worldview upon us.
“rationalfrummie” – actually separate entrances or clincs for men and women would be quite legal in the United States – unlike some countries, virtually all hospital rooms are single sex — bathrooms and changing rooms in public facilities are always single sex – the standard of religious accomodation is that an employer or service provider can not be ordered to accomodate religious practices if it creates a “de minimis” cost, but that such accomodation is allowed and is generally considered praiseworthy — when a university agreed to accomodate Muslims with separate swimming, the objection was based rather clearly on hatred of Islam, not on any gender based theories. Remember Israel is a country reknown for all sorts of things of the type we can’t discuss here (such as “recruiting” young women from other countries to do such things for pay that we can’t talk about in proper company – and advertsing the fact to attract tourists). It’s not about status of women – it’s about hatred of Bnei Torah.
it should be understand that the rules against gender separation reflect not a desire for sexual equality but are based solely on hatred and bigotry against frum Jews – based on what we’ve seen elsewhere we can expect that this bigotry will probably evolve into much stronger measures to reduce the number of hareidim (perhaps following the proverbial czarist formula – assimilate a third, kill a third, and convince a third to leave the country).
I’ve been leaving here close to twenty years, and this is the first time I feel the State/government of Israel is really trying to actively destroy yiddishkeit.
Not Yiddishkeit, but Charaidism. Halacha has no issue with having the same waiting room for both men and women.
Can you blame them? Charaidism (as shown in RBS, Yerushalyim, Beitar, etc.) is trying to destroy the secular way of life by force in many parts of Israel.
I do think this would have never happened if the Charaidim would have decided to visit the infidel with explanatory pamphlets instead of spitting, passing laws to exclude and burning busses. Once you decide to not “live and let live” (and yes, that is even if they walk though “your” neighborhood), expect others to fight back.
rationalfrummie,
Racial segregration and gender segregration are different. the Supreme Court has recognized that there are valid reasons to segregrate the genders (otherwise we would have to have unisex bathrooms!). Furthermore there is a difference between laws requiring the segregation and private businesses doing it voluntarily because their clientele, from both genders, prefer it that way.
That some communities have stricter mores on interactions between genders is hardly surprising. There is a very good chance that a Clinic in New Square that had separate entrances and separate hours for men and women would be held legal.
Shraga18,
As someone living in Israel and in a similar situation as you, I totally agree with you. I have two frum brother in laws in the army who agree that this government is doing all in it’s power to erase Torah!
I don’t think that our brothers in the diaspora are ABLE to understand the magnitude of what is happening here. To them what is wrong with X, Y or Z? But the problem is, the entire picture that is evolving here. The incitement that is going on here against the Frum Jews is simply unbelievable.
Rationalfrummie- You write:
“why is it okay for that to happen in Israel but not America?”
For the simple reason that that is what the people being served by the clinic want. If you would have it in Williamsburg for the Satmar community would the government have a problem with it? Would the supreme court say it is illegal? It is simply a matter of supply and demand.
Just make sure not to have an emergency during opposite hours.
Maybe the Israeli government is frummer than you and acting as a push-back to your irrational and assur chumrahs.
We will outlive them
Gavra at Work,
Yes Halacha has no problem with men and women sitting in the same room but at the same time if that is what people want then why not/ after all non charidim do not go to the clinics the charidim go to. I find it much more disturbing to go to a secular clinic with my kids and be forced to watch TV because there is nowhere(!) to sit without a screen in front of your face but does anyone stop that?
Also, most Charaidim do not spit, burn busses or pass laws to exclude(I would like an example for that one) in fact I find your post here and in other places most offensive in generalizing the Chardai population. sort of like “if all Jews were like you I wouldn’t hate Jews”. I have relatives whose children learn in the school who had a girl spat on and they are quite clear (as the majority of the parent population in the school) that these are extremists that do not reflect the majority of the Charaidim.
And yes they are trying to destroy Yiddishkeit – note what the Dati Leumi Rabbis and head of Yeshivot are saying!
shraga18 and grow up already: Did I miss something in recent weeks? Has the Israeli government forced everyone to eat “chazzir”? Has it passed a law forcing people to work on shabbos? or maybe it has confiscated every one’s tefillin? Can you please enlighten me where this apocalyptic view comes from?
Grow up Already: You missed the entire point of my post, so I will restate it. The non-Charaidi (including many Dati, including most of the populace (even if not those beholden to the Charaidim)) feel seriously threatened by the “power” of the Charaidim, and as the Charaidim exersize that power (by creating exclusionary towns such as Beitar and parts of Bait Shemesh, funding schools, special “funding” for large families which is almost exclusivly aimed at Charaidim, etc.) the non Charaidim are fighting back. This is what happens in a war, one side (usually) doesn’t roll over and agree to die. When you start up, sometimes you get kicked in the “ham and eggs”. The Charaidim should have expected this when they got dependent on government funding and started crowding others out.
I have relatives whose children learn in the school who had a girl spat on and they are quite clear (as the majority of the parent population in the school) that these are extremists that do not reflect the majority of the Charaidim.
No one claims they are not extremists. So what? Since they are not policed by the Charaidim, they (and by extension, the whole) are still a threat to non-Charaidim.
It’s like suicide bombers or price tag attacks. Until the group does something about them, the entire group gets painted as being (or harboring) extremism.
Any reason why my response is still in limbo?
I’ve seen so called “segregated” waiting rooms in NY. I don’t think there was a sign, just a SMALLER waiting area on the side where most men & bochurim VOLUNTARILY sat. No woman would object — they are given the bigger space as more women here take their kids to doctors/dentists. If it’s similar in Israel they are definitely motivated by an ant-religious agenda.
Um, how about the recent court decision that will crack down on supermarkets that want to stay open on shabbos? Anybody hear about that?
Mammele not the same. They have entirely separate hours.
If anything I think the chareidim should be happy. Now if a 13 year old boy is sick and needs a parent to accompany him to the doctor, his mother can take him and his father doesn’t need to take away time from learning.
feminist- thats not really due to religious considerations. the courts decision is based on the complaints of smaller business owners who cant afford the knas of staying open, while the larger stores can be michallel shabbos and cheshbon the knas into their budget. furthermore, its not really a recent decision, just a pledge to enforce an already-existing law. honestly, if noone would complain about the fines, the court wouldnt give two hoots about the situation. they dont care about the chillul shabbos at all.
Toi is correct. It’s more likely that Tel Aviv will allow stores to open on Shabbos altogether than that they’ll increase the fine to a level that would hurt the big stores.
Shraga18: “Shoelaces” is a Din in Yiddishkeit, not Charaidism. Perhaps it includes a Minhag that the entire Klal Yisroel accepted. If you believe that only Israeli Charaidim are considered to be Klal Yisroel (and I am certain that there are those in Israel who hold that way L’Halacha), then you are correct.
Shraga18, shoelaces my foot. If you think this is a shmad issue, then I really have to worry about yahadus in 2013. It’s a terrible shame when people make up halachos and when other people don’t go for it, they get labeled as evil.
Having separate hours in a health clinic is moronic.
And, FTR, if you ask anyobody living in Israel, the past health minister had been a disaster for Israel. If you’re going to be super-Charedi and make up laws, then don’t go into politics and don’t become health minister.
‘The non-Charaidi (including many Dati, including most of the populace (even if not those beholden to the Charaidim)) feel seriously threatened by the “power” of the Charaidim’
Had the charedim not abused their power this situation might be different. Datim are furious over the disrespect that the Charedi rabbis have expressed towards their institutions and leaders. I’m sorry, but HaBayit HaYehudi is NOT a party of gentiles, and Rabbi David Stav is a distinguished talmid chacham supported by the leading gedolim of the Religious Zionist world. And the charedi leadership on the conversion issue has been a shanda, putting Tropper in charge of conversions for the entire world, and endorsing Rav Sherman’s outrageous complete rewriting of halachah to pasuling massive numbers of conversions without investigations.
That said, the budget cuts to Torah institutions do cause me to shudder. DL institutions are getting hit just as bad. The DL and charedim ought to be allies here but the acrimony between the two parties is so great that I doubt this will happen. There have been overtures from some DL rabbis, but the charedi leaders don’t seem to be much interested.
Bump
Why did the court rule that stores have to close for shabbat? Isn’t the court mostly hiloni?
Gavra at work,
Most Charidim denounce the extremists ,you just don’t here about it in the papers because it is not popular. It is much more popular to talk about those crazy charidim who spit. And how are we supposed to police them? by getting into fist fights with them? by spiting on them? by throwing eggs at them?
You can police them as well as me and there is a reason you don’t do it!
It is beyond me why you feel so threatened by Charidiam. Did I miss something the Charedi members of Knesset did these past years?
Yes, the charadim do have exclusionary towns, I am not sure what that has to do with power as most of those towns were set up when the charadiem were not in the coalition. Anyways, no-one wants the Charidim in Ashdod or Kiryat Yovel or Beit Shemesh. they are quite happy the charidim have their own towns.
Where is the special funding? – I would like to go get some as I have a large Charedi family.
the Ponavaz Rav said we shouldn’t rely totally on the funding of the government as they will boot us one day so now his ????? is coming true. And believe it or not, it doesn’t bother me as much as the anti charidi attitude out there. did you hear that there is a proposed law that you cannot have separate seating at weddings and someone who enforces it will be subject to a year in jail? or the fact that we should be forced to donate our organs in a case of brain death (against Halach) unless we state otherwise? even if our family objects.
IS that is what you want in a Jewish state?
I am sorry you see this as a war on you as a dati leumi person because it isn’t(!) I grow up in the charadi system and have kids in the charadi system and that is not what they are hearing
Throw rocks, spit and hate the DL) In any case you say it is a war so now you know exactly how we feel except you see it as a war against you. WE SEE THIS AS A WAR AGAINST TORAH!!!!
The law is that the stores must close for shabbos. The Supreme Court ruled that stricter enforcement is needed, commenting that they were not making a statement of religion but merely enforcing the law.
I’m suprised such a law isn’t being challenged by those who want freedom from religion in Israel, like Meretznikim. While a law enforcing sabbath observance does promote one aspect of Jewish identity for the medina, it is also obviously at odds with religious freedom and can be seen as coercive.
In Tel Aviv, commerce, transportation, etc. are notorious for operating on Shabbat.
I’m suprised such a law isn’t being challenged by those who want freedom from religion in Israel, like Meretznikim. While a law enforcing sabbath observance does promote one aspect of Jewish identity for the medina, it is also obviously at odds with religious freedom and can be seen as coercive.
1. I’m sure it is.
2. Israel doesn’t have our 1st amendment.
True, they don’t, but they like to fancy themselves a Western-style democracy, where religious coercion is obviously not seen as desired. One can argue, though, as I would, that laws restricting public commerce on sabbath (Israeli sumptuary/blue laws) do promote a positive atmosphere (it is accepted widely that every society needs one day to rest, and for Christians, certainly in America, Sunday Blue Laws promoted a sense of rest and were an effort to retain a public religious consciousness that is missing nowadays) and uphold the Jewish character of the state.
The irony of the situation is hard to miss. If Israel is a Jewish State — and is seen as responsible for promoting halacha and sponsoring Yeshivas etc –shouldn’t all its citizens act with Zrezus to contribute to the survival of this state? Of course, Israel is seen as only a medina, and one that is not 100% (or even 50%, or 25%) kosher by many charedim. So why contribute to such an enterprise? One really can’t have it both ways: (1) Expecting the state to promote and sponsor Yiddishkeit; (2) Refusing to participate in the defense and economic health of the state because it is not Heilig. Having said that, there are better ways for the state to proceed than it has been doing. One can’t change a situation that was built on political deals overnight. Nor is it right to attack all Charedim for proceeding on a path that was agreed upon for years. Finally, the business of Tzava is in many respects symbolic and designed with less than up and up intentions — do they really think a Golani or Shaldag or 669 or any sayeret unit is screaming for a Yeshiva guy? Probably not.
ROB, you have already stated on these boards that you would not renounce your idolatry of Zionism even if proof were presented to you that your eigel is treif, and it was. So anyone reading your leitzanus post above should understand your “qualifications”.
Two of your fellow-countrymen who reside under Zionist rule have chosen to point out in this thread to their fellow Jews that the Zionists are turning up the heat in their 100+ year-old quest to turn Jews and our Judaism into, CH”V, Zionist warrior “Hebrews” and Zionism.
As valuable as their posts are to people who don’t live there, they’re also not the only ones who recognize this about Zionism (besides for, of course, people who were not deceived by Zionist lies and fallacies in the first place).
I read an article the other day that recounted yet another horrifying story about how a chareidi man joined the IDF in a chareidi unit and the Zionists convinced him to “temporarily” go to another non-chareidi unit so he could advance. After the inevitable yeridos occurred, along with the (immediate) consequences from those yeridos, the poor wife of this man went to a Torah-observant rabbi crying that “the State of Israel has betrayed me”, which, of course, the State was happy to do as they shmaded yet another Jew and created yet more tzaar in Klal Yisrael.
As the Brisker Rov wrote, and as a study of Zionism’s tragic history and current events would easily indicate, the Zionists shmad – not because they need a State; rather, they need a State in order to shmad.
Yet people actually believe in Zionist heresy contrary to the Torah giants of yesteryear’s dire warnings and severest condemnation and the hindsight of history and power of modern communication to inform on current events.
As he also said (as I recall), if one seeks to understand the eigel (haZahav), one need only observe (people’s relationship to) Zionism; it is the same matter.
BS”D
Grow up Already: I’m trying to explain the non-Charaidi position, not my own. If it were up to me, the entire country would be very different, including no drafting of Charaidim (or anyone else who doesn’t want to be in the army). Unfortunately I do not live EY, and with the current political and sociological situation, neither do I feel it possible to do so (and I hate to say it, it sounds so Meraglim-like :-(, so I have nothing to do with your “civil” war.
And thank you for the quote of the Ponavaz(er) Rav. I’m not the only one who says taking Israeli money hurts the Charaidim (and is a large reason why there is currently “a war against Torah”, and why there is such a lack of Kavod HaTorah by Shomrei Torah in Israel).
Where is the special funding? – I would like to go get some as I have a large Charedi family.
Sorry, it isn’t only for Charadiem. Plenty of Dati leumi and even Many Sephardi Chilonim have large families. Is there anything exclusively for Charediem as you implied?
And I would like to point out that as you don’t live in Israel you rely on the press and have no idea of what is ACTUALLY going on. As I said before unless you actually live here you are NOT ABLE to understand what is going on.
BTW, today the finance committee was against the proposed cuts (which will probably go into effect anyway) because it effects many Chilonim as well. see the link you sent me! And while you are at it read the last paragraph.
Also FYI, 40% of Charadi males work and pay taxes in Israel. and 80% of female Charedim work and pay taxes. So to say we don’t contribute at all is ridiculous.
And comparing The charadiem to the Arabs who harbor terrorist is really below the belt!
BTW, today the finance committee was against the proposed cuts (which will probably go into effect anyway) because it effects many Chilonim as well. see the link you sent me! And while you are at it read the last paragraph.
That is my point as well. It is a war (and even Labor MKs see it!). The question you have to answer (I, as you point out, don’t live in EY (and I believe I have the answer, as above)) is why do your fellow Yidden (even those who are Lomdei Torah and Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos!!!) hate you so much, and what can you do to stop it? As you now see, having a large section of the country hating you is hazardous for funding, let alone for Kavod HaTorah & Kavod Shomayim.
Sorry, it isn’t only for Charadiem. Plenty of Dati leumi and even Many Sephardi Chilonim have large families. Is there anything exclusively for Charediem as you implied?
Of course not. And the districting law in NY was not specifically tailored for Kiryas Yoel.
Who pushed for it & who cares the most if it gets removed?
And comparing The charadiem to the Arabs who harbor terrorist is really below the belt!
And comparing the charaidim to price tag terrorists is above the belt? All of them have a “Sad HaShave”, like it or not.
The haters have to stop hating. Those being hated don’t have to drop their hashkofos in order to stop being hated. Especially sinec they’ve been haters forever; it isn’t as if something came up that caused them to become haters.
And what’s wrong with specifically tailoring a districting law for KY? Is it because it can’t be done for a township consisting of Jews – but it can be done for a township consisting of non-Jews. Districting is done all the time tailored to African-American interests and/or the interests of other general townships. Jews are less?
The haters have to stop hating. Those being hated don’t have to drop their hashkofos in order to stop being hated. Especially sinec they’ve been haters forever; it isn’t as if something came up that caused them to become haters.
Yes, but if it is the actions of the group that is causing the hating, first the actions should stop. For (an extreme, unsimilar, but pointed) example, did anyone question why African Americans in the 1920s hated the KKK? Was the answer to “stop hating”? And yes, if your ideology tells you that many Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos have “been haters forever”, then you are correct. There is not much to discuss whith someone who has always hated you (but has continuously given you money….)
And what’s wrong with specifically tailoring a districting law for KY? Is it because it can’t be done for a township consisting of Jews – but it can be done for a township consisting of non-Jews. Districting is done all the time tailored to African-American interests and/or the interests of other general townships. Jews are less?
I didn’t say it was wrong (I actually agree with the original law which was specific for KY & should have been constitutional). You admit though it was done for KY (even though the final “law” did not mention Jews or KY)? So too here, the extra child subsidies were passed for the Charaidim, even if the law did not say “Charaidi” (and even if others can benefit). And now that they want to remove it, Gimmel is the one who is complaining.
Most Frum Yidden do not hate Charaidim, Certainly those who are Lomdei Torah and Shomeri Shabbos don’t. They might hate the extremists (and perhaps rightfully) but not the Charadaim as a whole.
The funding is what bothers us the least! (BTW the funding is only a very small fraction of the Israeli budget)
Just let us live our lives as we see fit. Don’t force us to sit through women singing (the hesder boys in the army) or to teach my children English (BTW I send them privately but if I don’t want to?) or tell me how many children to have (and no, I don’t expect the government to support them) As long as I am not harming anyone why cant you let me live in peace?
You claim you have the answer but, I am afraid that while we do have a lot to work on , your answer is a very small fraction. For as long as there are Yidden there will be anti Semitism and as long as there are Frum Yidden there will be hatred towards the Frum Yidden.(for the same basic reasons) This has been, unfortunately, proved throughout history.
??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????!
What school district was created solely for African-Americans?
No isn’t above belt.
And I fail to see the ?? ????? here. Charadiem hate the extremists as well and have NOTHING to do with them. you are placing us all in one box.
Also FYI, 40% of Charadi males work and pay taxes in Israel. and 80% of female Charedim work and pay taxes. So to say we don’t contribute at all is ridiculous.
I agree (even if it was 0%, as Torah is a Magen). However, I’m not the one that you have to convince. Even if you do convince the non-Charaidim, if you agree working is a positive (which is what this specific point argues), you would have to explain why having more workers is an issue and why Gimmel is against it.
No isn’t above belt.
And I fail to see the ?? ????? here. Charadiem hate the extremists as well and have NOTHING to do with them. you are placing us all in one box.
Most Arabs hate suicide bombers
Most DL don’t like the price tag attacks.
Most Charaidim don’t like the spitters.
None the less, all three are identified by their extreme elements. It is not “fair”, but life isn’t fair either.
What school district was created solely for African-Americans?,
Voting districts certainly are. That was the point of the recent Supreme Court ruling on the 1965 act.
Any all black school district (which exist in many urban areas) was as much created for blacks as an all Jewish school district (i.e. KY) was created for Jews. The point being just because a town or school district happens to have a demographic of all the same ethnicity (i.e. black or Jewish) does not mean there is anything untoward about having a school district there.
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