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Are Women Really Jewish?

(145 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by popa_bar_abba
  • Latest reply from jewishfeminist02

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  1. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    I think we need to stop ducking this question and finally address it directly.

    Women do not wear tzitzis, do not wear tefilin, do not wear yarlmukes, do not learn, daven, eat in the sukkah, or really do any of the mitzvos.

    They don't count for a minyan, they can't be motzi Jews in mitzvos, they can't read from the torah, they can't be a witness, can't be a judge, etc.

    They don't even have a bris, which is the sign of our covenant with Hashem!

    Even things they do, like dress tznius, are really just commandments against appearing non-tznius. They basically just can't violate shabbos, and can't eat non-kosher.

    So, are they really Jewish? What makes someone Jewish?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    If women aren't Jewish, then the men aren't either, since every man is born from a woman and Jewishness follows the mother.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. deiyezooger
    Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

    Yes they are "jewish women", they are not jewish men.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    If women aren't Jewish, then the men aren't either, since every man is born from a woman and Jewishness follows the mother.

    Who makes cars?
    People make cars!

    So are the autoworkers cars? Of course not. They are people who make cars!

    Only some people know how to make cars, and only some women are able to give birth to Jews.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. cshapiro
    Nothing in the world cures worry, stress, anxiety, sadness, and depression like emuna.

    u neglected to mention that men even thank hashem she lo asani eesha :)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Only some people know how to make cars, and only some women are able to give birth to Jews.

    Is it your contention that the halacha regarding maternal transmission of Jewishness is wrong?

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. deiyezooger
    Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

    "They basically just can't violate shabbos"

    No, they are obligated in all mitzvos of shaboss like kidush, seudas shaboss etc. just like men are.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. coffee addict
    Once killed a Troll with his bare hands

    Lol Popa I have a rayah (proof) to support you from this weeks parsha, the son of the mitzri was from a jewish woman that didn't make him jewish! :)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. מיהו יהודי'ה? אם אמך יהודי'ה

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    Is it your contention that the halacha regarding maternal transmission of Jewishness is wrong?

    I'm not saying the halacha is wrong. I'm just saying it doesn't mean that the women themselves are Jewish.

    My brother adds, that women are called a "בת ישראל", not that they are ישראל.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. always runs with scissors fast
    irons with spray starch

    This is the most funniest yet twisted question I have ever come across.

    I would say that in answer to your question, the real essence of being jewish has nothing to do with performing mitzvos.
    Mitzvos are a bonus thing. A way to earn rewards and bring yourself to love Hashem and make Him happy.

    Women are busy doing their own mitzvos. The ones above are not the only mitzvos in the Torah.

    Being Jewish is a soul thing. A belief in Ha Kodesh Baruch Hu, the instintual middah every yid posses to have rachumonis on another human being, and to abhor and hate idol worship.

    On the more practical note side of this, if Abishter wanted he could have intended all those mitzvos you mention above, for women too. And He didn't.

    Are men realParents just because they don't carry a child for 9 months and give birth to it, then nurse it?

    Its just that Aibishter didn't intend for that part of the avodah to men.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. deiyezooger
    Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

    mbachor; I believe you are refering to the Rashi saying "melamed shnisgeiyer", but that was before matan torah when we still had the halacha of a ben noach were we go acording to the father.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    I'm not saying the halacha is wrong. I'm just saying it doesn't mean that the women themselves are Jewish.

    Whatever. I don't even know why I'm bothering with this question. If you really have any doubts as to whether or not your wife is Jewish, perhaps you should speak to your LOR.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. coffee addict
    Once killed a Troll with his bare hands

    deiy,

    I know I'm just playing along with Popa :)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    You might imagine that Judaism is passed down by if your mother's brother is Jewish.

    Which is presumably why chazal say you should check a woman's brothers before you marry her.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. BSD
    proud member, platinum member, remember, dismember, abi ah member!

    Woman must be Jewish Only a Jewish woman can make chicken soup:)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. newhere
    Member

    "they can't be motzi Jews in mitzvos"
    Really? Since when?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. deiyezooger
    Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

    no the reason is because they have the influance of there mothers brother.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. deiyezooger
    Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

    In those mitzvos that they are mechiyov like kiddush they can be motzoi men.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. R Shmuel
    Member

    I love this question.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. Is Popa Jewish?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. deiyezooger
    Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

    Are Navi officers not members of the militery? They dont fly planes like the Air Force? they dont jump like paratroopres? They are members of a diferent division in the same army, there job is to navigate submarines.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. charliehall
    Member

    "The son of the Mitzri was not originally Jewish because he was born before Matan Torah."

    We don't know that. Ibn Ezra says that the Mitzi converted to Judaism. That would create a problem because Mitzrim are not permitted to marry born Jews until the third generation. (That Shlomo HaMelech did this greatly troubled Chazal.)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. deiyezooger
    Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

    "Is Popa Jewish? "

    Since there are real answers to Popa's question, there is no need to attack him personaly.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. hudi
    Member

    Women were at Har Sinai with the men. So they, and their children, are Jewish.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  26. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    Are Navi officers not members of the militery? They dont fly planes like the Air Force? they dont jump like paratroopres? They are members of a diferent division in the same army, there job is to navigate submarines.

    The Naval Air Force flies planes.
    Navy SEAL stands for SEa Air Land Commando.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  27. deiyezooger
    Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

    Wathever comments anybody still has for this thread, please do so quickly. I believe this thread will be closed within the hour.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  28. emlf
    Energy & Mineral Law Foundation

    What was the point of this question?!
    Let's ask a different question. Are you - including me, including any man or woman - displaying the three midos of a Yid?
    Now THAT's a question!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  29. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    I my opinion, Jewish women are Jewish (not ALL women)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  30. deiyezooger
    Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

    Popa not every Navi officer is a commando.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  31. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    Women were at Har Sinai with the men. So they, and their children, are Jewish.

    I don't think that proves anything.
    Their tents were also at har sinai. Are the tents Jewish? Are the goats?

    Being at har sinai didn't make them Jewish.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  32. coffee addict
    Once killed a Troll with his bare hands

    charlie,

    which mitzri are you talking about, the megadef, no one said he was going to marry a non ger

    Posted 2 years ago #
  33. deiyezooger
    Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

    emlf; Wow!!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  34. ursula momish
    Anything but Member :)

    popa, does your mother know you post here?
    did she laugh when you asked her this question (as we did when we read it)?
    basically, you're saying that since women are not obligated in those mitzvos you listed they are not jewish, i.e., jewishness is defined by the obligation to do those particular mitzvos.
    well, for one thing, aren't the ten commandments pretty important mitzvos? not one of them is gender specific.
    second, aren't women obligated in three specific mitzvos? are you, that is, men, not jewish because you don't have to take challah, light candles, or keep thm as women are obligated to? (true, you can take challah and light candles if there's no woman around to do it, but we can make kiddush etc if there is no man around, too.)

    now, i have a different question: you know that joke about the guy going to three different rabbis because he wants to be a cohen, and the orthodox and conservative rabbis tell him he can't become one, and finally the reform rabbi says no problem, just why do you want to become a cohen? and he says because my father was one, and my grandfather was, etc. hahaha, what an ignoramus, right?
    well, what if his father married out? true, he should be a cohen because his father is a cohen and that follows the father. but jewishness follows the mother and if he's not jewish, he can't be a cohen. so there goes the joke.
    what if he converts back? he can become jewish, but can he become a cohen retroactively?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  35. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    Popa not every Navi officer is a commando.

    I know. And not everybody is Jewish.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  36. deiyezooger
    Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

    "which mitzri are you talking about, the megadef, no one said he was going to marry jewish"

    If I remember correctly, they can marry another convert.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  37. charliehall
    Member

    "Women do not wear tzitzis, do not wear tefilin, do not wear yarlmukes, do not learn, daven, eat in the sukkah, or really do any of the mitzvos."

    Women can wear tzitzit. Women are required to learn all the mitzvot for which they are chayev, and are permitted to learn almost everything else. (Rov Soloveitchik z'tz'l said that we are REQUIRED to teach gemara to women.) Women are required to pray the Shemoneh Esrei by Rambam, the Shulchan Aruch, the Mishnah Berurah, the Aruch HaShulchan, in fact by every halachic code except the Magen Avraham. Women eat in the sukkah in most communities and an Ashkenazic woman recites the brachah before doing so. To say that women "don't do any of the mitzvot" is a massive distortion of halachah!

    "They don't count for a minyan, they can't be motzi Jews in mitzvos, they can't read from the torah, they can't be a witness, can't be a judge, etc."

    Minyan is not from the Torah, it is a d'rabbanan, and according to Ran and HaMeiri a woman counts for a minyan in anything for which she is actually obligated such as reading the Megillah. A woman can motzi any other Jew in any mitzvah who has an equal level of obligation; for example, a woman can recite the Friday night kiddush for her husband according to all opinions (and my wife often does this for me). A woman can read from the Torah in a group of women. A woman is a kosher witness for many things including kashrut and taharat hamishpacha. (Good thing -- if not, you'd never be able to have marital relations or eat from your own family kitchen!) According to Rav Uziel z'tz'l, a woman can be a Dayan as long as the parties to the case accept her and that particular tshuvah was universally accepted by all Orthodox communities; in fact there are no women today who have as of yet earned the Yadin Yadin semichah necessary to judge property cases but that does not change the basic halachah.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  38. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    Now for real. Women have Kabolas Ol Mitzvohs just as men. Only a few less. Make a cheshbon, how many are we dealing with?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  39. coffee addict
    Once killed a Troll with his bare hands

    how about this Popa,

    women are obligated in Shabbos

    and Goy sheshavas Chayav Misah

    so by default have to be jewish (they're not goyim)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  40. deiyezooger
    Say my name 6 times fast. cmon. TRY IT

    "Popa not every Navi officer is a commando.

    I know. And not everybody is Jewish."

    But every Navi officer no matter whats his job is a member of the militery, and every jew no matter if in the men zeman geramah division or in the womens seloh hazman geramah division is a member in hashems army.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  41. coffee addict
    Once killed a Troll with his bare hands

    thanks deiy,

    I realized that after I posted so i edited it

    Posted 2 years ago #
  42. Pac-Man
    Joseph

    Why are men Jewish?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  43. BSD
    proud member, platinum member, remember, dismember, abi ah member!

    Is someone who is not shomer torah umitsvos Jewish? What make you and me Jewish? Why do you assume that being mechuyav in mitzvos is what makes someone Jewish, maybe the citeria is being forbiden in lo sase. Maybe it's just geneology? Or both?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  44. sms007
    Member

    If we Jewish women weren't Jewish, we wouldn't be allowed to keep Shabbos. And please, enough with the women jokes.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  45. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    women are obligated in Shabbos
    and Goy sheshavas Chayav Misah

    Notice, it says "goy", but not "goyah".

    Posted 2 years ago #
  46. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    ursula momish
    Those mitzvohs you mentioned are not 'ladies mitzvohs'. Actually I think thm is MORE for Men. Men are obligated in Challah and Neros Shabbos too. It's just that the women are more into theses three than men. More into bringing children into this world and insuring a proper chinuch, too. More into Mitzvos of chesed with family and friends all day long too.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  47. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    Hee hee. Look at my new subtitle.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  48. sms007
    Member

    popa, I think you enjoy getting on people's nerves. Well, you succeded in getting on mine and insulting me. Happy?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  49. charliehall
    Member

    "are you, that is, men, not jewish because you don't take challah, light candles, or keep thm "

    Men are required to take challah, light candles, and keep thm. Male bakers take challah all the time.

    "we can make kiddush etc if there is no man around"

    L'chatchala a woman can make kiddush for her husband on Friday night. In fact, if the husband has davened maariv but the wife does not daven maariv (for example, if she holds by the Mishnah Berurah and davens shacharit and minchah but not maariv), the wife actually has a HIGHER level of obligation to make kiddush than her husband and strictly speaking from a halachic perspective it would be PREFERABLE for her to make kiddush (and not just for her husband but for any guests as well). For other reasons this is not typically done, but my wife often makes kiddush for me at our table on Friday night. (And yes, I clear this entire logic with my Rav.)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  50. Popa: Why do you need to know?

    Posted 2 years ago #

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