Are Women Really Jewish?

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  • #596739

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I think we need to stop ducking this question and finally address it directly.

    Women do not wear tzitzis, do not wear tefilin, do not wear yarlmukes, do not learn, daven, eat in the sukkah, or really do any of the mitzvos.

    They don’t count for a minyan, they can’t be motzi Jews in mitzvos, they can’t read from the torah, they can’t be a witness, can’t be a judge, etc.

    They don’t even have a bris, which is the sign of our covenant with Hashem!

    Even things they do, like dress tznius, are really just commandments against appearing non-tznius. They basically just can’t violate shabbos, and can’t eat non-kosher.

    So, are they really Jewish? What makes someone Jewish?

  • #1064941

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If women aren’t Jewish, then the men aren’t either, since every man is born from a woman and Jewishness follows the mother.

    The Wolf

  • #1064943

    deiyezooger
    Member

    Yes they are “jewish women”, they are not jewish men.

  • #1064944

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If women aren’t Jewish, then the men aren’t either, since every man is born from a woman and Jewishness follows the mother.

    Who makes cars?

    People make cars!

    So are the autoworkers cars? Of course not. They are people who make cars!

    Only some people know how to make cars, and only some women are able to give birth to Jews.

  • #1064945

    cshapiro
    Member

    u neglected to mention that men even thank hashem she lo asani eesha πŸ™‚

  • #1064946

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Only some people know how to make cars, and only some women are able to give birth to Jews.

    Is it your contention that the halacha regarding maternal transmission of Jewishness is wrong?

    The Wolf

  • #1064947

    deiyezooger
    Member

    “They basically just can’t violate shabbos”

    No, they are obligated in all mitzvos of shaboss like kidush, seudas shaboss etc. just like men are.

  • #1064948

    coffee addict
    Participant

    Lol Popa I have a rayah (proof) to support you from this weeks parsha, the son of the mitzri was from a jewish woman that didn’t make him jewish! πŸ™‚

  • #1064949

    ???? ?????’?? ?? ??? ?????’?

  • #1064950

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Is it your contention that the halacha regarding maternal transmission of Jewishness is wrong?

    I’m not saying the halacha is wrong. I’m just saying it doesn’t mean that the women themselves are Jewish.

    My brother adds, that women are called a “?? ?????”, not that they are ?????.

  • #1064951

    This is the most funniest yet twisted question I have ever come across.

    I would say that in answer to your question, the real essence of being jewish has nothing to do with performing mitzvos.

    Mitzvos are a bonus thing. A way to earn rewards and bring yourself to love Hashem and make Him happy.

    Women are busy doing their own mitzvos. The ones above are not the only mitzvos in the Torah.

    Being Jewish is a soul thing. A belief in Ha Kodesh Baruch Hu, the instintual middah every yid posses to have rachumonis on another human being, and to abhor and hate idol worship.

    On the more practical note side of this, if Abishter wanted he could have intended all those mitzvos you mention above, for women too. And He didn’t.

    Are men realParents just because they don’t carry a child for 9 months and give birth to it, then nurse it?

    Its just that Aibishter didn’t intend for that part of the avodah to men.

  • #1064952

    deiyezooger
    Member

    mbachor; I believe you are refering to the Rashi saying “melamed shnisgeiyer”, but that was before matan torah when we still had the halacha of a ben noach were we go acording to the father.

  • #1064953

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I’m not saying the halacha is wrong. I’m just saying it doesn’t mean that the women themselves are Jewish.

    Whatever. I don’t even know why I’m bothering with this question. If you really have any doubts as to whether or not your wife is Jewish, perhaps you should speak to your LOR.

    The Wolf

  • #1064954

    coffee addict
    Participant

    deiy,

    I know I’m just playing along with Popa πŸ™‚

  • #1064955

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You might imagine that Judaism is passed down by if your mother’s brother is Jewish.

    Which is presumably why chazal say you should check a woman’s brothers before you marry her.

  • #1064956

    BSD
    Member

    Woman must be Jewish Only a Jewish woman can make chicken soup:)

  • #1064957

    newhere
    Member

    “they can’t be motzi Jews in mitzvos”

    Really? Since when?

  • #1064958

    deiyezooger
    Member

    no the reason is because they have the influance of there mothers brother.

  • #1064959

    deiyezooger
    Member

    In those mitzvos that they are mechiyov like kiddush they can be motzoi men.

  • #1064960

    R Shmuel
    Member

    I love this question.

  • #1064963

    Is Popa Jewish?

  • #1064964

    deiyezooger
    Member

    Are Navi officers not members of the militery? They dont fly planes like the Air Force? they dont jump like paratroopres? They are members of a diferent division in the same army, there job is to navigate submarines.

  • #1064965

    charliehall
    Member

    “The son of the Mitzri was not originally Jewish because he was born before Matan Torah.”

    We don’t know that. Ibn Ezra says that the Mitzi converted to Judaism. That would create a problem because Mitzrim are not permitted to marry born Jews until the third generation. (That Shlomo HaMelech did this greatly troubled Chazal.)

  • #1064966

    deiyezooger
    Member

    “Is Popa Jewish? “

    Since there are real answers to Popa’s question, there is no need to attack him personaly.

  • #1064967

    hudi
    Member

    Women were at Har Sinai with the men. So they, and their children, are Jewish.

  • #1064968

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Are Navi officers not members of the militery? They dont fly planes like the Air Force? they dont jump like paratroopres? They are members of a diferent division in the same army, there job is to navigate submarines.

    The Naval Air Force flies planes.

    Navy SEAL stands for SEa Air Land Commando.

  • #1064969

    deiyezooger
    Member

    Wathever comments anybody still has for this thread, please do so quickly. I believe this thread will be closed within the hour.

  • #1064970

    emlf
    Member

    What was the point of this question?!

    Let’s ask a different question. Are you – including me, including any man or woman – displaying the three midos of a Yid?

    Now THAT’s a question!

  • #1064971

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I my opinion, Jewish women are Jewish (not ALL women)

  • #1064972

    deiyezooger
    Member

    Popa not every Navi officer is a commando.

  • #1064973

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Women were at Har Sinai with the men. So they, and their children, are Jewish.

    I don’t think that proves anything.

    Their tents were also at har sinai. Are the tents Jewish? Are the goats?

    Being at har sinai didn’t make them Jewish.

  • #1064974

    coffee addict
    Participant

    charlie,

    which mitzri are you talking about, the megadef, no one said he was going to marry a non ger

  • #1064975

    deiyezooger
    Member

    emlf; Wow!!

  • #1064976

    popa, does your mother know you post here?

    did she laugh when you asked her this question (as we did when we read it)?

    basically, you’re saying that since women are not obligated in those mitzvos you listed they are not jewish, i.e., jewishness is defined by the obligation to do those particular mitzvos.

    well, for one thing, aren’t the ten commandments pretty important mitzvos? not one of them is gender specific.

    second, aren’t women obligated in three specific mitzvos? are you, that is, men, not jewish because you don’t have to take challah, light candles, or keep thm as women are obligated to? (true, you can take challah and light candles if there’s no woman around to do it, but we can make kiddush etc if there is no man around, too.)

    now, i have a different question: you know that joke about the guy going to three different rabbis because he wants to be a cohen, and the orthodox and conservative rabbis tell him he can’t become one, and finally the reform rabbi says no problem, just why do you want to become a cohen? and he says because my father was one, and my grandfather was, etc. hahaha, what an ignoramus, right?

    well, what if his father married out? true, he should be a cohen because his father is a cohen and that follows the father. but jewishness follows the mother and if he’s not jewish, he can’t be a cohen. so there goes the joke.

    what if he converts back? he can become jewish, but can he become a cohen retroactively?

  • #1064977

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Popa not every Navi officer is a commando.

    I know. And not everybody is Jewish.

  • #1064978

    deiyezooger
    Member

    “which mitzri are you talking about, the megadef, no one said he was going to marry jewish”

    If I remember correctly, they can marry another convert.

  • #1064979

    charliehall
    Member

    “Women do not wear tzitzis, do not wear tefilin, do not wear yarlmukes, do not learn, daven, eat in the sukkah, or really do any of the mitzvos.”

    Women can wear tzitzit. Women are required to learn all the mitzvot for which they are chayev, and are permitted to learn almost everything else. (Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l said that we are REQUIRED to teach gemara to women.) Women are required to pray the Shemoneh Esrei by Rambam, the Shulchan Aruch, the Mishnah Berurah, the Aruch HaShulchan, in fact by every halachic code except the Magen Avraham. Women eat in the sukkah in most communities and an Ashkenazic woman recites the brachah before doing so. To say that women “don’t do any of the mitzvot” is a massive distortion of halachah!

    “They don’t count for a minyan, they can’t be motzi Jews in mitzvos, they can’t read from the torah, they can’t be a witness, can’t be a judge, etc.”

    Minyan is not from the Torah, it is a d’rabbanan, and according to Ran and HaMeiri a woman counts for a minyan in anything for which she is actually obligated such as reading the Megillah. A woman can motzi any other Jew in any mitzvah who has an equal level of obligation; for example, a woman can recite the Friday night kiddush for her husband according to all opinions (and my wife often does this for me). A woman can read from the Torah in a group of women. A woman is a kosher witness for many things including kashrut and taharat hamishpacha. (Good thing — if not, you’d never be able to have marital relations or eat from your own family kitchen!) According to Rav Uziel z’tz’l, a woman can be a Dayan as long as the parties to the case accept her and that particular tshuvah was universally accepted by all Orthodox communities; in fact there are no women today who have as of yet earned the Yadin Yadin semichah necessary to judge property cases but that does not change the basic halachah.

  • #1064980

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Now for real. Women have Kabolas Ol Mitzvohs just as men. Only a few less. Make a cheshbon, how many are we dealing with?

  • #1064981

    coffee addict
    Participant

    how about this Popa,

    women are obligated in Shabbos

    and Goy sheshavas Chayav Misah

    so by default have to be jewish (they’re not goyim)

  • #1064982

    deiyezooger
    Member

    “Popa not every Navi officer is a commando.

    I know. And not everybody is Jewish.”

    But every Navi officer no matter whats his job is a member of the militery, and every jew no matter if in the men zeman geramah division or in the womens seloh hazman geramah division is a member in hashems army.

  • #1064983

    coffee addict
    Participant

    thanks deiy,

    I realized that after I posted so i edited it

  • #1064984

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Why are men Jewish?

  • #1064985

    BSD
    Member

    Is someone who is not shomer torah umitsvos Jewish? What make you and me Jewish? Why do you assume that being mechuyav in mitzvos is what makes someone Jewish, maybe the citeria is being forbiden in lo sase. Maybe it’s just geneology? Or both?

  • #1064986

    sms007
    Member

    If we Jewish women weren’t Jewish, we wouldn’t be allowed to keep Shabbos. And please, enough with the women jokes.

  • #1064987

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    women are obligated in Shabbos

    and Goy sheshavas Chayav Misah

    Notice, it says “goy”, but not “goyah”.

  • #1064988

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    ursula momish

    Those mitzvohs you mentioned are not ‘ladies mitzvohs’. Actually I think thm is MORE for Men. Men are obligated in Challah and Neros Shabbos too. It’s just that the women are more into theses three than men. More into bringing children into this world and insuring a proper chinuch, too. More into Mitzvos of chesed with family and friends all day long too.

  • #1064989

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Hee hee. Look at my new subtitle.

  • #1064990

    sms007
    Member

    popa, I think you enjoy getting on people’s nerves. Well, you succeded in getting on mine and insulting me. Happy?

  • #1064991

    charliehall
    Member

    “are you, that is, men, not jewish because you don’t take challah, light candles, or keep thm “

    Men are required to take challah, light candles, and keep thm. Male bakers take challah all the time.

    “we can make kiddush etc if there is no man around”

    L’chatchala a woman can make kiddush for her husband on Friday night. In fact, if the husband has davened maariv but the wife does not daven maariv (for example, if she holds by the Mishnah Berurah and davens shacharit and minchah but not maariv), the wife actually has a HIGHER level of obligation to make kiddush than her husband and strictly speaking from a halachic perspective it would be PREFERABLE for her to make kiddush (and not just for her husband but for any guests as well). For other reasons this is not typically done, but my wife often makes kiddush for me at our table on Friday night. (And yes, I clear this entire logic with my Rav.)

  • #1064992

    Popa: Why do you need to know?

  • #1064993

    charliehall
    Member

    The number of mitzvot from the Torah for which men are chiyuv and women are patur is rather small — about a dozen or so, with the exact number depending on whether you count head and arm tefillin as one mitzvah or two, whether you count evening and morning shema as one or two. The difference in the number of mitzvot is greater when you compare male Yisraelim to male Kohanim. Are male Yisraelim Jewish? Similarly, farmers in Eretz Yisrael (men AND women!) are chayev in about two dozen more Torah mitzvot than all the rest of us. Does that mean that they are Jewish and we aren’t?

  • #1064994

    BSD
    Member

    Popa-Must be a female mod! You gotta know which side your bread is buttered on. All joking aside I hope your wife doesn’t go on the coffee room. I have extra room in my garage if you need:)

  • #1064995

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    “What makes someone Jewish?”

    Whatever Hashem says…

    and that’s that.

    “Women … do not learn, daven, eat in the sukkah, or really do any of the mitzvos.”

    They sure do.

    (Unfortunately, the non-Orthodox have decided, as you have, that women are not “observed” enough in religion, & look what happened)

  • #1064996

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well, you succeded in getting on mine and insulting me. Happy?

    Why are you insulted? Either it is true or not true, but either way there is no reason to be insulted.

    Is it an insult to tell me I am not a kohen?

    Popa: Why do you need to know?

    Because if women aren’t Jewish, then there are definitely not OVER 1 MILLION FRUM JEWS IN NEW YORK.

  • #1064997

    zeeskite: “Actually I think thm is MORE for Men.” ???

    Perhaps, in some way, but women certainly have more of a specific obligation to keep it, differently from men. To be clearer, I should just have pointed out that generally we are taught from childhood that those are the big three for women because of Sara Imeinu’s example, and they are stressed much less for men.

  • #1064998

    OK, I have the definitive answer:

    Women are not Jew-ish. We are Jew – Isha.

  • #1064999

    K HI!!JEWISH WOMEN ARE JEWISH!! what are you hocking?? this is ridiculous!

  • #1065000

    and?

  • #1065002

    Charliehall: I should have been more clear. When I said men do not have to keep these mitzvos “AS WOMEN ARE OBLIGATED TO” I meant they are not obligated IN THE SAME WAY: certainly, as i said, men can do those things, just girls are taught that those are THEIR mitzvos. Sort of: men CAN, but women MUST–the way that men must do those other things, and women can, but don’t necessarily have to. (and yes, i know my husband can take challah for me and he can light the candles for me…)

  • #1065003

    charliehall
    Member

    ‘Unfortunately, the non-Orthodox have decided, as you have, that women are not “observed” enough in religion, & look what happened.’

    Good point. We should simply follow the actual halachah. Women can do plenty within the bounds of halachah, as I have shown in several earlier comments.

  • #1065004

    oomis
    Member

    Jewish women don’t wear tzitzis or have a bris, or any of the other things you mentioned, because Hashem made us kirtzono. We are perfect the way we are and do not require those other accoutrements (that you do)in order to bring us to the level of kedusha that men need to work so hard to achieve. We are already there, just by virtue of our being Jewish women.

  • #1065007

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    It’s because of the nashim tzidkanyos that men were saved from Egypt to become a Jewish nation at Har Sinai…

    some hakaras hatov

  • #1065008

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It’s because of the nashim tzidkanyos that men were saved from Egypt to become a Jewish nation at Har Sinai…

    I’m not saying they can’t be tzidkaniyos. Goyim can also be tzadikim.

  • #1065010

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    You missed the point.

    They were then brought together to Har Sinai to become the Jewish nation.

  • #1065013

    oomis
    Member

    oomis1105: Would you say the same about goyim? They’re perfect the way HaShem made them, they don’t need mitzvos?

    Who says so? 99% of them have broken every one of the sheva mitzvos b’nei Noach. When men say shelo asani goy or aved, they are specifying that these are people who do not have the chiyuv of mitzvos on them in the same way that we do, and they acknowledge Hashem’s chessed in giving us these responsibilities.

    When they say it about WOMEN, they are really thanking Hashem that He let them off with JUST the need to do mitzvos, rather than the ohl of being pregnant, giving birth to, and raising the the next generation of our people. If even ONE man had to go through a pregnancy and childbirth, IMO it would be the end of the Jewish people. Or ALL people. I think they are just expressing their profound hakoras hatov for being let off that hook. πŸ˜‰ I also think men do not really want to be on the same level of kedusha as women – it’s too hard for them to maintain that level on their own, hence the need for all the extra mitzvos. And boy am I SO not a B”Y girl!!!!!

  • #1065014

    coffee addict
    Participant

    I’ll find the mekor in the morning (unless someone can post it here)

    I got a different one, it’s only a takana from Dovid Hamelech U beis Dino that can’t have yichud with a goyah so what’s the Lav in the torah if they are all goyos

  • #1065015

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    This is a most disturbing thread

    It reminds me of Chushim ben Dan, who was spared hearing a debate & was better off for it

  • #1065016

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    charliehall,

    Thank you

  • #1065018

    charliehall
    Member

    “men CAN, but women MUST–the way that men must do those other things, and women can, but don’t necessarily have to”

    Actually, that is incorrect. Not all Jewish men know this, but if they don’t have a woman lighting Shabat candles for them they must light themselves. If a woman OR a man bakes a sufficiently large amount of bread (CYLOR for the exact amount), no Jew can eat it until challah is taken whether the baker is a man or a woman. And of course both women and men must follow taharat hamishpachah.

  • #1065019

    charliehall
    Member

    “Thank you”

    You are welcome.

  • #1065020

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    oomis1105:

    Again, we’ve had this discussion before, and before. Over and over again. Women are NOT HOLIER than men. And NO. Men are not ‘THANKING’ HaShem for letting them off the hook. That’s not what the brocho is all about. A little respect for Chazal who instituted Brochos.

  • #1065021

    DaasYochid
    Participant
  • #1065022

    coffee addict
    Participant

    thanks for the insight daas

  • #1065023

    charliehall
    Member

    “women certainly have more of a specific obligation to keep it, differently from men. To be clearer, I should just have pointed out that generally we are taught from childhood that those are the big three for women”

    Technically, for those three mitzvot the obligation is identical for men and women. The very, very strong minhag is that women light the Shabat candles in all Jewish homes. Someone has to take challah from any bread that is baked that is greater than a certain amount and since in most homes, it is the woman who does the baking, it is the woman who takes the challah. (In commercial bakeries men often take the challah.) A woman is trusted to tell her husband whether or not she is niddah and whether she has gone to the mikveh, so the way taharat hamishpacha works in practice the woman is responsible.

    The source for these being considered “women’s mitzvot” is a mishnah in tractate Shabat that is read every Friday night in most Ashkenazic synagogues, part of the “Bamei Madlikin” chapter.

    You can find it in any Nusach Ashkenaz Shabat siddur.

    (I should add that I have no desire to change any of these minhagim; but we should be precise in our exposition of halachah. Personally, we never bake enough bread to require taking challah, and I only light candles when traveling out of town, or when my wife, a physician, is busy saving someone’s life as Shabat comes in.)

  • #1065024

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Personally, we never bake enough bread to require taking challah

    Eeees bakes just about every week and takes challah. And on the odd occasion that I make the challos for shabbos, I take challah from the dough.

    The Wolf

  • #1065025

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Is a goy allowed to take challah?

  • #1065026

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    a goy can take challah along with the leichter

  • #1065027

    AYC – good answer

  • #1065028

    hanib
    Participant

    pba just started this thread cuz he didn’t like having “member” as his subtitle, and he’s too “cool” to ask for his subtitle back. πŸ˜‰

    DY – pba claims that he takes hashkafa and halacha seriously.

    anyways, can’t answer this question cuz in pba’s own definition of what is judaism he excludes what women do. it’s all in your definiton. if definition of Jew, means coming from Avraham, Yitzchok, and Yaakov, then women are also Jews. (which is how Torah defines Jews; thus we, men and women, are all B’nei Yisroel – we all are called “children of Ya’akov, whose name was changed to Yisroel). thus, reform, conservative, and orthodox whose mothers, etc. go way back to Yaakov are Jews. someone who did not convert appropriately and did not descend from a jewish mother isn’t Jewish, even if he has a bris, keeps shabbos, etc. etc.

    if someone makes up their own definiton and therefore proves that women are not Jewish based on that definition, can’t argue. can’t argue with proofs when the basic theorem is all wrong.

  • #1065029

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY – pba claims that he takes hashkafa and halacha seriously.

    Yes, I suppose this thread puts a bit of question mark on that.

    and he’s too “cool” to ask for his subtitle back. πŸ˜‰

    Maybe I wanted to earn it back, so that it wouldn’t be ???? ???????.

  • #1065030

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    choc,

    thanks

  • #1065031

    hanib
    Participant

    for thse who get upset, don’t take everything you read so seriously. some people like to argue and to think “out of the box”. skip those threads, if you don’t enjoy them. althoough we all are Jews, we do all have different temperaments and different tastes; that’s why there are so many threads – so we can say, “that’s the thread, i don’t post in.” πŸ™‚

  • #1065032

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    thank you bina.

    I agree with everything you said except the third line.

  • #1065033

    hanib
    Participant

    Maybe I wanted to earn it back, so that it wouldn’t be ???? ???????.

    lol! (though i think that this sentence is actually truth; leading us to believe that truth can be funnier than fiction).

  • #1065034

    hanib
    Participant

    Yes, I suppose this thread puts a bit of question mark on that.

    i would put that line in BOLD if i knew how, so everyone can see it. unfortunately, the only thing i learned how to do in the CR was to italicize. πŸ™

  • #1065035

    hanib
    Participant

    thank you bina.

    I agree with everything you said except the third line.

    don’t worry about that. you’re just human.

    it’s hard for most people to admit when they are wrong. πŸ˜‰

    By the way, is aba bar dad, any relation to pba or just an attempt to copy the origianl?

  • #1065039

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    By the way, is aba bar dad, any relation to pba or just an attempt to copy the origianl?

    It is my father.

  • #1065040

    coffee addict
    Participant

    i would put that line in BOLD if i knew how, so everyone can see it.

    it’s the same as italics except write strong in the <> </>

  • #1065041

    charliehall
    Member

    “Women are not Jew-ish. We are Jew – Isha. “

    ROTF!!! Love it!!!!!

  • #1065042

    hanib
    Participant

    thanks, mbachur

    pba – ah, so you were pulling a joseph on us. i tried finding the post now – either it disappeared or i keep missing it, but i thought the person was arguing against pba.

  • #1065043

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    He was not pulling a Joseph. I am pretty sure it was his father posting, not him. If he were Joseph he would be posting himself under a different screenname

  • #1065044

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    There are about 3.5 Billion women in the world and most are not Jewish so I think we can use a Rov to pasken that women are not Jewish.

  • #1065045

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Michele Obama and Hilary Clinton are women.

    Michele Obama and Hilary Clinton are not Jewish.

    Therefore, women are not Jewish.

    Simple logic!

  • #1065046

    Anonymous

    mICHELE oBAMA is dark therefore all sefardim are not jewish.

    connection?????

  • #1065048

    BTGuy
    Participant

    YW Moderator – 42. I beg to differ. Your syllogism is neither simple nor logic.

    Your categorical propositions, from which your conclusion is to be inferred, do not contain the very necessary defined structure of including, “All”, “Some”, or “No”. For example, “All” Michele Obamas are….or “Some” Michele Obamas are….. or “No” Michele Obamas are……Therefore…yadda yadda yadda….would make for valid propositions that can then be argued.

    They are structurally incomplete and logically leading us to a faulty, albeit, humorous conclusion.

    Nonetheless, I am just the messenger. You will have to take it up with Aristotle. It’s his gig. lol

  • #1065049

    oomis
    Member

    Women are more Jewish than men. They clearly require NONE of the things mentioned (i.e. tzitzis, yarmulkes, davening in a minyan, OR bris) because they are more Jewishly complete without any of those things. MEN OTOH, need all those things, to strengthen their connection to Yiddishkeit. And no Jewish man produces a Jewish child WITHOUT a Jewish woman. The converse, however, is not true.

    Not every descendant of Avraham Avinu is Jewish. he also had a Yishmael.

  • #1065052

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    oomis:

    OK back to square one (that’s what 42 intended). So according to your (???) logic, goyim are more Jewish then Jews. They don’t need the mitzvohs that Jews do! Yisraelim are more holy than Kohanim, they don’t require those additional ‘reminders’…

    Let me try to reiterate (again..)

    The little Chazal I’ve come across CLEARLY state the opposite. A person’s Jewishness (halachakly) is evaluated by his/her Mitzvah OBLIGATION status. In the order a man says birchas hashachar. (goy, eved isha) – indeed that is the REASON for those brochos. A (real) Jewish woman, feeling a longing for this loss, submits her longing to HaShem’s decision, and says Sheasani Kirtzono. Any other attempt to misinterpret, misconstrue its real meaning is just that.

  • #1065053

    Didn’t Rashi’s daughters wear tefilin?

  • #1065054

    zaidy78
    Member

    Is your left hand worse than you right hand? After all your right hand is stronger, you write with the right hand, so who needs left hands? Are left hands even part of the human body? Would you prefer two right hands and no left hands??

    Just as the left compliments the right hand, so to a woman compliments a man? Does that make women any less? Of course not! They just have a different task in life, equally (or even more) important, just different!!

  • #1065055

    There are about 3.5 Billion women in the world and most are not Jewish so I think we can use a Rov to pasken that women are not Jewish.

    –Mod 42

    I don’t get it. If most of the women in the world are not jewish, why do you need a rabbi to pasken that women aren’t jewish?

    (just kidding. I’m not really THAT dense).

    Also, thanks for reviving this hilarious thread. I missed it the first time around.

    Popa,

    its been a while since you started a thread like this, what’s pshat?

  • #1065056

    kapusta
    Participant

    I don’t want to get involved in a debate now but I’ll say this anyway.

    oomis, are you translating higher level as more Jewish? I don’t know that anyone is more Jewish than someone else, either someone is or isn’t. A higher level is definitely possible.

    ZK, did you get that comment at the super belittling and condescending post store?

    *kapusta*

  • #1065057

    midwesterner
    Participant

    To Zaidy78: I don’t mean to be the grammar police, but there is a world of difference between compliment and complement. I’m sure you meant the latter.

    I don’t know much about women complimenting a man, most can probably live without it. But I do know that if a man forgets to compliment a woman, watch out!!

  • #1065058

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Popa,

    its been a while since you started a thread like this, what’s pshat?

    All my threads are like this. You just don’t even realize it anymore.

  • #1065059

    All my threads are like this. You just don’t even realize it anymore.

    they’re all funny but something about this one was just a cut above!

  • #1065060

    Popa,

    based on the logic of your OP it would seem that baby boys until they are a few years old and capable of doing mitzvos are not jewish either. Why don’t they need geirus?

  • #1065061

    OneOfMany
    Member

    How many of the 613 can ANY of us actually keep, anyway? Wouldn’t that make all Jews not-Jewish?

  • #1065062

    snjn
    Member

    News flash: Being Jewish does not depend on some external mitzvas like tefilin and tzitzit. Being jewish is based on having a jewish neshama by being born to a jewish mother or converting. When the yidden stood at Har Sinai and accepted the Torah, they became Jews, men and women alike. All their descendants are jewish provided they hadn’t married a non jewish woman.

    In any case, this topic, like so many others in the coffee room is just looking for another way to demean women, as them being “less than”. That’s the real obsession here.

  • #1065063

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    snjn: I wouldn’t call mitzvohs ‘external’. No, they’re what in fact makes us Jewish. Remember where we became Jews? Yeah, the place we said ???? ?????. Where HaShem said ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????. That was when HaShem “flashed us His news”.

    Furthermore, a bit of reading Chazal indeed reveal to us that it’s as I wrote.

    This topic was a ‘troll’ not to demean any gender. The OP could be a woman for all I know.

  • #1065064

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    News flash: Being Jewish does not depend on some external mitzvas like tefilin and tzitzit.

    As zeeskite rightly pointed out, mitzvos are not external. Maybe that is why you have trouble understanding this.

    Being jewish is based on having a jewish neshama by being born to a jewish mother or converting.

    What is a Jewish mother? Aren’t all mothers women? I don’t know what you are talking about.

    based on the logic of your OP it would seem that baby boys until they are a few years old and capable of doing mitzvos are not jewish either. Why don’t they need geirus?

    Because they have a bris.

  • #1065065

    hanib
    Participant

    Barack Obama and Bill Clinton are men.

    Barack Obama and Bill Clinton are not Jewish.

    Therefore, men are not Jewish.

    Simple logic!

  • #1065066

    hanib
    Participant

    actually, i’d like to point out the fact that women are actually on a higher level than men. Every day of the first 6 days Hashem created creatures that were on a higher level than the days before. On the 6th day after creating everything else Hashem created man. everything before that was created for the purpose of serving man.

    …drumroll….for the important part….

    women were created AFTER men –

    obviously, man was put there first to serve women.

    as mod. 42 says, “simple logic”

  • #1065067

    snjn
    Member

    What I meant by “external” mitzvah was simply that the examples he gave were only of mitzvahs that are obvious for all to see when they are kept. Mitvas like Shabbos, kashrus, taharas hamishpacha, believing in Hashem, mitzvos bain adam lachavairo, brochos, etc. where women are equally michuyav. In fact, there are SEVEN mitzvos that women are not mechuyav in and the OP chose to harp on those. That gives a cursory glance at the obvious (external) mitzvos of men and says those are conditions of being a Jew.

  • #1065068

    oomis
    Member

    “oomis, are you translating higher level as more Jewish? I don’t know that anyone is more Jewish than someone else, either someone is or isn’t. A higher level is definitely possible. “

    Nope. I don’t. But based on the troll thinking around here, it seems some men apparently think that way about Jewish women. Just because someone does more mitzvos or certain mitzvos not incumbernt on someone else, does not make them “more” Jewish. But if the guys want to go that route, I have to point out that Jewish women do not need to do those mitzvos in order to be on that same high madreiga, because women are spiritually stronger to begin with. πŸ™‚

  • #1065069

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Bina Yeseira: Does that mean that a pair of plyers is more choshuv than even a woman?

  • #1065070

    midwesterner
    Participant

    One could also say, according to the opinion that “Dyo partuzufin bara b’Adam” that man was indeed the final creation, and the woman was removed from him. Cleansing him, if you will.

  • #1065071

    midwesterner
    Participant

    And to snjn: Sometimes Popa’s trolling is very subtle and hard to detect. But this thread has it right there in the title!! (At least the recently modified title.)

  • #1065072

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    snjn:

    Once again, women are Mechuyav in ALL mitzvhos be it obvious or not, external or not. They’re exempt , as all know, from “mitzvos assay shehazman gerama”, time-dependent positive commandments, internal or external, obvious or not. That is THE SOLE difference.

    I’ve been reading about this “hidden/private mitzvohs” thing here time and again, it’s just nonsense. (or someone’s erroneous ‘internal’ whim)

  • #1065073

    Because they have a bris.

    The bris was while they were still goyim. How does that help them become a ger later on?

  • #1065074

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Popa,

    its been a while since you started a thread like this, what’s pshat?

    Happy now?

  • #1065075

    coffee addict
    Participant

    maybe women become Jewish when they get married (hence the name Kiddushin) (It could answer up how it’s not boel aramis)

  • #1065076

    Happy now?

    ha! I posted on one of the threads that you started tonight that the real Popa threads are back! I hadn’t seen this at the time.

  • #1065077

    So like most of you I hope, my first thought on seeing this thread was, “That’s funny, I know they act like goyim and don’t follow the Torah and do the mitzvos like us, but of course they’re jewish.” However, recently, my wife who’s doing Daf HaSha’ah showed me a Tosfos in Qiddushin who quotes a gemara in Sotah that clearly holds they’re not. [The Tosfos itself was kinda interesting till I realized I might be a gayr] Those who follow the Rambam will of course throw this out with the baby but for the rest of us.

    The Gemara (Sotah 37b [Of course I didn’t look it up] says that at Har Sinai the Bnei Yisrael Took on 603,550 covenants as guarantors for each other. Tosfos derives from this that they did not become guarantors for the Eirev Rav. The obvious next step is that they also did not become guarantors for the women. ???? ????? ??.

  • #1065078

    WIY
    Member

    Popa

    You are due for another one of these brilliant threads. πŸ™‚

  • #1065079

    interjection
    Participant

    A Sheep: maybe the husbands and fathers were motzei their women

  • #1065080

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Since we’re reviving Popa classics…

  • #1065081

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    We are always reviving Popa classics

  • #1065082

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    And changing the titles back to the originals?

  • #1065083

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    not always that part

  • #1065084

    (RebYidd23)
    Participant

    Jewish women are definitely Jewish, even if the definition of “Jewish woman” is a women who can give birth to a Jew.

  • #1065085

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Ashkenazic women, according to genetic research, have essentially gentile genetic markers, unlike Ashkenazic men, whose mitochondrial DNA has many similarities to that of Sephardic men, showing more Jewish continuity among Jewish men than women.

    Those early Ashkenazic female converts didn’t have conversions accepted by the Rabbanut and the RCA, therefore, they must be goyim gamurim.

  • #1065086

    WIY
    Member

    So one minute, boys become Jewish at 8 days old and girls are born Jewish? Or girls become Jewish at bas mitzvah?

  • #1065087

    Gamanit
    Participant

    WIY- I guess boys who cannot have a bris milah just aren’t jewish :).

  • #1065088

    sharp
    Member

    I think rebdoniel is in agreement with pba here.

  • #1065089

    (RebYidd23)
    Participant

    A Jewish woman is either a woman who is Jewish or a Jew who is female. Even if, as you claim, women have no real role in Judaism, they are still Jewish women. And about your long-ago car analogy: Anyone can make a car if they know how. It’s a learned skill. If a non-Jewish woman has proper training, can she give birth to a Jew?

  • #1065090

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I lead services in a dying shul; sadly, we sometimes get more women than men, and since we need a minyan, essentially, their presence is useless and constitutes little more than kiddush freeloading.

  • #1065091

    writersoul
    Member

    rebdoniel: Women can’t daven? Just because they can’t do what you need them to do doesn’t mean that they’re freeloading.

  • #1065092

    WIY
    Member

    writersoul

    Dont let him get away with it.

  • #1065093

    squeak
    Participant

    Theres a reason why a kiddush is meant to be just herring kichel and slivovitz. Keeps away freeloading women. If you serve salad at a kiddush and have pretty cakes as centerpieces youve dug your own grave.

  • #1065094

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Rd, since I don’t now you and have no benefit from you, should I say that your existence is useless and that you’re an olam hazeh freeloader?

    I think you should rethink this one.

  • #1065095

    RD- would you prefer that these women NOT come to shul, daven b’tzibur and hear Krias hatorah?

  • #1065096

    The reason women can’t count in a minyan is that minyan is a tikun for the aveirah of the meraglim, and the meraglim were men. But women who participate in minyanim should not be viewed as “useless”, insignificant, or peripheral. Hashem hears the prayer of the tzibur as a whole.

    Incidentally, rebdoniel, I don’t know how it is in your shul, but in my shul it is always a woman who sets up and cleans up the kiddush, regardless of who sponsors it.

  • #1065097

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    shkoyach writersoul. I don’t think I was spaced in last time this was bumped. Give to him over the head, with a rolling pin.

  • #1065098

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    We should index these classic threads, not just the altah bochur ones.

  • #1065099

    (RebYidd23)
    Participant

    This thread should not be open. It is complete.

  • #1065100

    kj chusid
    Participant

    I love this topic

  • #1065101

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Once this thread is back, part of Popa’s original argument was

    They don’t even have a bris, which is the sign of our covenant with Hashem!

    However, as I recently pointed out in the Jokes thread

    In honor of all the seminary threads:

    Q. What’s the difference between B’nos Sarah and B’nos Chavah?

    A. B’nos Chavah accepts non-Jews too. (According to Popa, they both accept non-Jews but ??????? ????? the Gemara in Avodah Zara 27a.)

    The Gemara there says:

    ???? ???? ?????? ????

    And as the Seridei Eish writes (2:67):

    ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???

    Although he then immediately writes:

    ??? ????? ?? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??”? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???”? ??”? ?? ?”? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???”? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????

    Which might support Popa.

  • #1065102

    golfer
    Participant

    This is a great thread you started p_b_a.

    But in case, after 3 years, you’re still waiting and hoping someone answers the question :

    Yes, Popa, I am.

  • #1065103

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Igros Moshe Orach Chaim 4:49:

    ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???’ ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??’ ???’ ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????, ???? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ?”? ????????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ????”? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???

  • #1065104

    BelieveYouMe
    Participant

    Hey, Ladies, what’s with you? You used your ammunition over and over and Popa is still not impressed. I think all of you forgot one thing! Rosh Chodesh!! Wasn’t Rosh Chodesh given mainly to the women?

    We are so careful not to do laundry or sewing, etc. and my sister even takes off from work every Rosh Chodesh!

    Is Rosh Chodesh a Jewish holiday? Are Jewish women Jewish?

  • #1065105

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Believe:

    If anything, Rosh Chodesh is a raya that women aren’t Jewish. The source for Rosh Chodesh being a women’s holiday is the Pirkei D’Rabbi Eliezer (perek 44) which says:

    ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??’ ?? ??? ???’ ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???’ ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ?? ???? ???”? ????”? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???”? ???”? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??’ ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ??’ ??????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???????

    Since the women refused to give their jewelry for the Golden Calf they were rewarded with Rosh Chodesh. Now let’s look at the pesukim which describe this event. Exodus Perek 32:

    Verse 1 says:

    ???????? ?????

    Verse 2 says:

    ???????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?????????? ?????????

    Verse 3 says:

    ??????????????? ???? ?????

    Verse 6 says:

    ????????? ?????

    It is clear from this that the Torah refers to the Nation of Israel several times (one of which explicitly states “The ENTIRE Nation”) in which we know that it is only referring to the men. In fact the very same Pirkei D’Rebbi Eliezer just a few lines later says:

    ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ??

    Perforce, women are not Jewish.

  • #1065106

    (RebYidd23)
    Participant

    Maybe women simply do not want to be Jewish.

  • #1065107

    kj chusid
    Participant

    Has nobody realized pba was joking

  • #1065108

    (RebYidd23)
    Participant

    PBA never jokes.

  • #1065109

    kj chusid
    Participant

    Just like u never joke

  • #1065110

    (RebYidd23)
    Participant

    I don’t know whether I joke. I never asked.

  • #1065111

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Pattur Aval Assur +1

  • #1065112

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    YW Moderator-42:

    Thank you.

  • #1065113

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Yevamos 63a:

    ?”? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???

    ??:

    ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???

    So apparently, unmarried men and men who don’t own land, are really women. Hence they are not Jewish. But how could they not be Jewish?

    They wear tzitzis, wear tefilin, wear yarlmukes, learn, daven, eat in the sukkah, and do all of the mitzvos.

    They count for a minyan, they can be motzi Jews in mitzvos, they can read from the torah, they can be a witness, can be a judge, etc.

    They even have a bris, which is the sign of our covenant with Hashem!

    In short, they fulfill all the criteria mentioned by Popa in his first post. Now if they are not Jewish despite fulfilling all the criteria for Jewishness, then clearly we have the wrong criteria. Which means Popa’s whole proof that women aren’t Jewish is not a proof. Which means that presumably women are Jewish. But if women are in fact Jewish then that means that unmarried men (who as established above, are really women) are Jewish. Well if they’re Jewish then there is no reason not to accept Popa’s criteria, in which case women really aren’t Jewish. And then the circle starts again.

  • #1065114

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    My syllogism:

    1) ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? (Shavuos 29a)

    2) ??? ???? ???? ?????? (Rosh Berachos Chapter 3 Siman 13)

    3) Ergo, ??? ???? ???? ?????

  • #1065115

    PAA

    :??????? ??

    One Rashi refers to ????? ????????? and ????? ???????. That says that they’re Jewish.

    Another Rashi says “???? ???? ??”

    That one solves at complicates your Rosh Chodesh idea, and might solve your syllogism.

    Also, your proof from yevamos is lav davka– He is not a man, but that doesnt automatically make him a child. Maybe he isnt a man because his bones melted?

    Or he(it?) is an androgonynous and is now married to him(it?)self

  • #1065116

    (RebYidd23)
    Participant

    He wouldn’t be a woman just because he’s not married either.

  • #1065117

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    secretagentyid:

    Do you mean 35b? There he says ???? ???????? and ?????. Though I don’t know of a Rashi that says ???? ???? ??.

    Either way, you’re bringing a Rashi against explicit pesukim, an explicit Pirkei D’rabbi Eliezer, an explicit Gemara, and an explicit Rosh.

    Regarding the proof from Yevamos, I was assuming that if he’s not a man then he is a woman. He wouldn’t be a child just because he’s not married. And his bones would only melt if he’s past 20.

  • #1065118

    Yeah, I meant :??

    The two ????? ??????’s are “?????? ??? ?????” and “????? ????”.

    None of them are that explicit (maybe the pirkei drebi eliezer)

    The rosh could be talking with regards to ???? ??????, rashi says woman are bichlal am with regards to the pesukim. And either way, rashi can argue with the rosh.

    The gemorrah in yevamos could have said that a single man is like a woman. Instead it says he is not a man. So he is not fullfilling all the requirements for being a man. And since he is still chayav in all the mitzvos he i not a woman.

  • #1065120

    BelieveYouMe
    Participant

    Patur – in ref. to your answer to my post that Jewish women aren’t Jewish because the whole nation bowed to the eigel, even though we know that the women did not, in the same vein I ask you if Shevet Laivi is also not Jewish, even though we know that they also did not bow to the eigel.

  • #1065122

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Ralbag in today’s parsha writes:

    ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????

    Also, I will address some questions on me that I never got around to addressing:

    The gemorrah in yevamos could have said that a single man is like a woman. Instead it says he is not a man.

    The same reason why the Torah says ????? ???? instead of ???.

    BelieveYou Me:

    The answer to your question is that Shevet Levi is a separate category. Though they are Jewish, they are not called ?????. Now you might ask that in the same way, women, even though they are not called ?????, can be like Shevet Levi. To that I would respond that the Rambam (Hilchos Shemita V’yovel 13:13) writes:

    ??? ??? ??? ???? ???

    ?? ??? ????

    ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?’ ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?’ ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????

    As you can see from the words I bolded, the Rambam is explicitly excluding women from being like Shevet Levi.

  • #1065123

    I’m glad someone finally came to the obvious conclusion. Of course women aren’t Jewish! But who ever said you have to be Jewish to make a good cholent?

  • #1065124

    (RebYidd23)
    Participant

    bishul akum

  • #1065125

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Is cholent ???? ?? ???? ??????

  • #1065126

    Just because they’re not Jewish makes them akum? Maybe they’re an independent category. Btw PBA: you once said they if women say sheasanei keretzon, men should say shelo asani keretzono. Of course you never joke, but I think a modicum of greatness lies in that pithy statement. πŸ™‚

  • #1065127

    owl
    Member

    Usually I find myself battling the people who say that women are more spiritual so I’m happy to find that this post upset me as much as that silly notion. It’s a throwback to the way people talked 50 years ago in the days of male chauvinism. Today usually you hear female chauvinism.

    Here’s what Rabbi Miller had to say about it:

    As we know, men are commanded to perform mitzvos asei she’haz’man grama, time-bound mitzvos. Women, on the other hand, are not required to perform these mitzvos. What is the reason for this difference? The answer is that women have other important obligations to tend to, which exempt her from these commandments. A woman must know that she is a briah shel chessed, she has been created for the purpose of performing chessed. Being a wife and mother is a very significant role, and it requires her to be selfless and totally dedicated to performing chessed! It takes a woman’s entire effort to succeed in being an efficient mother and wife. Investing her abilities in raising children is very time consuming but is a tremendous zechus for her! (Rabbi Avigdor Miller Speaks, pp. 271-3)

  • #1065128

    owl
    Member

    Let’s see, only a cat can make a cat, only a dog can make a dog. A Only Jewish woman can make a Jewish child. You cannot. Maybe it’s you that’s not a Jew.

  • #1065129

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Only a lioness can give birth to a tigon yet a lioness is not a tigon.

  • #1065130

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Only a cow can give birth to a bull, but a cow is not a bull.

    But the real answer was anyway posted in like the 4th post on this thread.

  • #1065131

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    When popa says shelo asani goy and then shelo asani isha, is it a bracha l’vatala?

  • #1065132

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: We’ve already discussed elsewhere that I just make a sheasani shelo kirtzono.

  • #1065133

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    You never really said that you actually say it…

    Shelo Asani Isha

    In fact, though, I stole your joke:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shelo-asani-isha#post-302605

  • #1065134

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    No, I was asking why they don’t say shelo asani kirtzono. But we actually do say sheasani shelo kirtzono.

    Also, if I ever finish my Phd and start teaching linguistics, I’m going to start the semester by reading this thread. Words have the meaning we give to them, but giving words meaning doesn’t change reality. Women are whatever they are, and if you define Jewish as meaning Jewish Male, that doesn’t change any reality.

  • #1065135

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Words have the meaning we give to them

    As a society, yes, but when you start using words in an abnormal manner, meaning in a way which most people don’ generally use them, you get the reaction this thread engendered. (pun intended).

    I think “do you get an aveirah” is another thread you should read with your class.

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