Are Women Really Jewish?

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  • #1065106
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Maybe women simply do not want to be Jewish.

    #1065107
    kj chusid
    Participant

    Has nobody realized pba was joking

    #1065108
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    PBA never jokes.

    #1065109
    kj chusid
    Participant

    Just like u never joke

    #1065110
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I don’t know whether I joke. I never asked.

    #1065111
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Pattur Aval Assur +1

    #1065112
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    YW Moderator-42:

    Thank you.

    #1065113
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Yevamos 63a:

    ?”? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???

    ??:

    ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???

    So apparently, unmarried men and men who don’t own land, are really women. Hence they are not Jewish. But how could they not be Jewish?

    They wear tzitzis, wear tefilin, wear yarlmukes, learn, daven, eat in the sukkah, and do all of the mitzvos.

    They count for a minyan, they can be motzi Jews in mitzvos, they can read from the torah, they can be a witness, can be a judge, etc.

    They even have a bris, which is the sign of our covenant with Hashem!

    In short, they fulfill all the criteria mentioned by Popa in his first post. Now if they are not Jewish despite fulfilling all the criteria for Jewishness, then clearly we have the wrong criteria. Which means Popa’s whole proof that women aren’t Jewish is not a proof. Which means that presumably women are Jewish. But if women are in fact Jewish then that means that unmarried men (who as established above, are really women) are Jewish. Well if they’re Jewish then there is no reason not to accept Popa’s criteria, in which case women really aren’t Jewish. And then the circle starts again.

    #1065114
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    My syllogism:

    1) ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? (Shavuos 29a)

    2) ??? ???? ???? ?????? (Rosh Berachos Chapter 3 Siman 13)

    3) Ergo, ??? ???? ???? ?????

    #1065115

    PAA

    :??????? ??

    One Rashi refers to ????? ????????? and ????? ???????. That says that they’re Jewish.

    Another Rashi says “???? ???? ??”

    That one solves at complicates your Rosh Chodesh idea, and might solve your syllogism.

    Also, your proof from yevamos is lav davka– He is not a man, but that doesnt automatically make him a child. Maybe he isnt a man because his bones melted?

    Or he(it?) is an androgonynous and is now married to him(it?)self

    #1065116
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    He wouldn’t be a woman just because he’s not married either.

    #1065117
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    secretagentyid:

    Do you mean 35b? There he says ???? ???????? and ?????. Though I don’t know of a Rashi that says ???? ???? ??.

    Either way, you’re bringing a Rashi against explicit pesukim, an explicit Pirkei D’rabbi Eliezer, an explicit Gemara, and an explicit Rosh.

    Regarding the proof from Yevamos, I was assuming that if he’s not a man then he is a woman. He wouldn’t be a child just because he’s not married. And his bones would only melt if he’s past 20.

    #1065118

    Yeah, I meant :??

    The two ????? ??????’s are “?????? ??? ?????” and “????? ????”.

    None of them are that explicit (maybe the pirkei drebi eliezer)

    The rosh could be talking with regards to ???? ??????, rashi says woman are bichlal am with regards to the pesukim. And either way, rashi can argue with the rosh.

    The gemorrah in yevamos could have said that a single man is like a woman. Instead it says he is not a man. So he is not fullfilling all the requirements for being a man. And since he is still chayav in all the mitzvos he i not a woman.

    #1065120
    BelieveYouMe
    Participant

    Patur – in ref. to your answer to my post that Jewish women aren’t Jewish because the whole nation bowed to the eigel, even though we know that the women did not, in the same vein I ask you if Shevet Laivi is also not Jewish, even though we know that they also did not bow to the eigel.

    #1065122
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Ralbag in today’s parsha writes:

    ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????

    Also, I will address some questions on me that I never got around to addressing:

    The gemorrah in yevamos could have said that a single man is like a woman. Instead it says he is not a man.

    The same reason why the Torah says ????? ???? instead of ???.

    BelieveYou Me:

    The answer to your question is that Shevet Levi is a separate category. Though they are Jewish, they are not called ?????. Now you might ask that in the same way, women, even though they are not called ?????, can be like Shevet Levi. To that I would respond that the Rambam (Hilchos Shemita V’yovel 13:13) writes:

    ??? ??? ??? ???? ???

    ?? ??? ????

    ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?’ ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?’ ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????

    As you can see from the words I bolded, the Rambam is explicitly excluding women from being like Shevet Levi.

    #1065123

    I’m glad someone finally came to the obvious conclusion. Of course women aren’t Jewish! But who ever said you have to be Jewish to make a good cholent?

    #1065124
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    bishul akum

    #1065125
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Is cholent ???? ?? ???? ??????

    #1065126

    Just because they’re not Jewish makes them akum? Maybe they’re an independent category. Btw PBA: you once said they if women say sheasanei keretzon, men should say shelo asani keretzono. Of course you never joke, but I think a modicum of greatness lies in that pithy statement. 🙂

    #1065127
    owl
    Member

    Usually I find myself battling the people who say that women are more spiritual so I’m happy to find that this post upset me as much as that silly notion. It’s a throwback to the way people talked 50 years ago in the days of male chauvinism. Today usually you hear female chauvinism.

    Here’s what Rabbi Miller had to say about it:

    As we know, men are commanded to perform mitzvos asei she’haz’man grama, time-bound mitzvos. Women, on the other hand, are not required to perform these mitzvos. What is the reason for this difference? The answer is that women have other important obligations to tend to, which exempt her from these commandments. A woman must know that she is a briah shel chessed, she has been created for the purpose of performing chessed. Being a wife and mother is a very significant role, and it requires her to be selfless and totally dedicated to performing chessed! It takes a woman’s entire effort to succeed in being an efficient mother and wife. Investing her abilities in raising children is very time consuming but is a tremendous zechus for her! (Rabbi Avigdor Miller Speaks, pp. 271-3)

    #1065128
    owl
    Member

    Let’s see, only a cat can make a cat, only a dog can make a dog. A Only Jewish woman can make a Jewish child. You cannot. Maybe it’s you that’s not a Jew.

    #1065129
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Only a lioness can give birth to a tigon yet a lioness is not a tigon.

    #1065130
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Only a cow can give birth to a bull, but a cow is not a bull.

    But the real answer was anyway posted in like the 4th post on this thread.

    #1065131
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    When popa says shelo asani goy and then shelo asani isha, is it a bracha l’vatala?

    #1065132
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: We’ve already discussed elsewhere that I just make a sheasani shelo kirtzono.

    #1065133
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You never really said that you actually say it…

    Shelo Asani Isha

    In fact, though, I stole your joke:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shelo-asani-isha#post-302605

    #1065134
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    No, I was asking why they don’t say shelo asani kirtzono. But we actually do say sheasani shelo kirtzono.

    Also, if I ever finish my Phd and start teaching linguistics, I’m going to start the semester by reading this thread. Words have the meaning we give to them, but giving words meaning doesn’t change reality. Women are whatever they are, and if you define Jewish as meaning Jewish Male, that doesn’t change any reality.

    #1065135
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Words have the meaning we give to them

    As a society, yes, but when you start using words in an abnormal manner, meaning in a way which most people don’ generally use them, you get the reaction this thread engendered. (pun intended).

    I think “do you get an aveirah” is another thread you should read with your class.

    #1291013
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The 4th post (or one like it) is the real answer how?

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