Are Women Really Jewish?

Home Forums Controversial Topics Are Women Really Jewish?

Tagged: 

Viewing 50 posts - 51 through 100 (of 179 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1064993
    charliehall
    Participant

    The number of mitzvot from the Torah for which men are chiyuv and women are patur is rather small — about a dozen or so, with the exact number depending on whether you count head and arm tefillin as one mitzvah or two, whether you count evening and morning shema as one or two. The difference in the number of mitzvot is greater when you compare male Yisraelim to male Kohanim. Are male Yisraelim Jewish? Similarly, farmers in Eretz Yisrael (men AND women!) are chayev in about two dozen more Torah mitzvot than all the rest of us. Does that mean that they are Jewish and we aren’t?

    #1064994
    BSD
    Member

    Popa-Must be a female mod! You gotta know which side your bread is buttered on. All joking aside I hope your wife doesn’t go on the coffee room. I have extra room in my garage if you need:)

    #1064995
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    “What makes someone Jewish?”

    Whatever Hashem says…

    and that’s that.

    “Women … do not learn, daven, eat in the sukkah, or really do any of the mitzvos.”

    They sure do.

    (Unfortunately, the non-Orthodox have decided, as you have, that women are not “observed” enough in religion, & look what happened)

    #1064996
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well, you succeded in getting on mine and insulting me. Happy?

    Why are you insulted? Either it is true or not true, but either way there is no reason to be insulted.

    Is it an insult to tell me I am not a kohen?

    Popa: Why do you need to know?

    Because if women aren’t Jewish, then there are definitely not OVER 1 MILLION FRUM JEWS IN NEW YORK.

    #1064997

    zeeskite: “Actually I think thm is MORE for Men.” ???

    Perhaps, in some way, but women certainly have more of a specific obligation to keep it, differently from men. To be clearer, I should just have pointed out that generally we are taught from childhood that those are the big three for women because of Sara Imeinu’s example, and they are stressed much less for men.

    #1064998

    OK, I have the definitive answer:

    Women are not Jew-ish. We are Jew – Isha.

    #1064999

    K HI!!JEWISH WOMEN ARE JEWISH!! what are you hocking?? this is ridiculous!

    #1065000
    wanderingchana
    Participant

    and?

    #1065002

    Charliehall: I should have been more clear. When I said men do not have to keep these mitzvos “AS WOMEN ARE OBLIGATED TO” I meant they are not obligated IN THE SAME WAY: certainly, as i said, men can do those things, just girls are taught that those are THEIR mitzvos. Sort of: men CAN, but women MUST–the way that men must do those other things, and women can, but don’t necessarily have to. (and yes, i know my husband can take challah for me and he can light the candles for me…)

    #1065003
    charliehall
    Participant

    ‘Unfortunately, the non-Orthodox have decided, as you have, that women are not “observed” enough in religion, & look what happened.’

    Good point. We should simply follow the actual halachah. Women can do plenty within the bounds of halachah, as I have shown in several earlier comments.

    #1065004
    oomis
    Participant

    Jewish women don’t wear tzitzis or have a bris, or any of the other things you mentioned, because Hashem made us kirtzono. We are perfect the way we are and do not require those other accoutrements (that you do)in order to bring us to the level of kedusha that men need to work so hard to achieve. We are already there, just by virtue of our being Jewish women.

    #1065007
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    It’s because of the nashim tzidkanyos that men were saved from Egypt to become a Jewish nation at Har Sinai…

    some hakaras hatov

    #1065008
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It’s because of the nashim tzidkanyos that men were saved from Egypt to become a Jewish nation at Har Sinai…

    I’m not saying they can’t be tzidkaniyos. Goyim can also be tzadikim.

    #1065010
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    You missed the point.

    They were then brought together to Har Sinai to become the Jewish nation.

    #1065013
    oomis
    Participant

    oomis1105: Would you say the same about goyim? They’re perfect the way HaShem made them, they don’t need mitzvos?

    Who says so? 99% of them have broken every one of the sheva mitzvos b’nei Noach. When men say shelo asani goy or aved, they are specifying that these are people who do not have the chiyuv of mitzvos on them in the same way that we do, and they acknowledge Hashem’s chessed in giving us these responsibilities.

    When they say it about WOMEN, they are really thanking Hashem that He let them off with JUST the need to do mitzvos, rather than the ohl of being pregnant, giving birth to, and raising the the next generation of our people. If even ONE man had to go through a pregnancy and childbirth, IMO it would be the end of the Jewish people. Or ALL people. I think they are just expressing their profound hakoras hatov for being let off that hook. 😉 I also think men do not really want to be on the same level of kedusha as women – it’s too hard for them to maintain that level on their own, hence the need for all the extra mitzvos. And boy am I SO not a B”Y girl!!!!!

    #1065014
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I’ll find the mekor in the morning (unless someone can post it here)

    I got a different one, it’s only a takana from Dovid Hamelech U beis Dino that can’t have yichud with a goyah so what’s the Lav in the torah if they are all goyos

    #1065015
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    This is a most disturbing thread

    It reminds me of Chushim ben Dan, who was spared hearing a debate & was better off for it

    #1065016
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    charliehall,

    Thank you

    #1065018
    charliehall
    Participant

    “men CAN, but women MUST–the way that men must do those other things, and women can, but don’t necessarily have to”

    Actually, that is incorrect. Not all Jewish men know this, but if they don’t have a woman lighting Shabat candles for them they must light themselves. If a woman OR a man bakes a sufficiently large amount of bread (CYLOR for the exact amount), no Jew can eat it until challah is taken whether the baker is a man or a woman. And of course both women and men must follow taharat hamishpachah.

    #1065019
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Thank you”

    You are welcome.

    #1065020
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    oomis1105:

    Again, we’ve had this discussion before, and before. Over and over again. Women are NOT HOLIER than men. And NO. Men are not ‘THANKING’ HaShem for letting them off the hook. That’s not what the brocho is all about. A little respect for Chazal who instituted Brochos.

    #1065021
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1065022
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    thanks for the insight daas

    #1065023
    charliehall
    Participant

    “women certainly have more of a specific obligation to keep it, differently from men. To be clearer, I should just have pointed out that generally we are taught from childhood that those are the big three for women”

    Technically, for those three mitzvot the obligation is identical for men and women. The very, very strong minhag is that women light the Shabat candles in all Jewish homes. Someone has to take challah from any bread that is baked that is greater than a certain amount and since in most homes, it is the woman who does the baking, it is the woman who takes the challah. (In commercial bakeries men often take the challah.) A woman is trusted to tell her husband whether or not she is niddah and whether she has gone to the mikveh, so the way taharat hamishpacha works in practice the woman is responsible.

    The source for these being considered “women’s mitzvot” is a mishnah in tractate Shabat that is read every Friday night in most Ashkenazic synagogues, part of the “Bamei Madlikin” chapter.

    You can find it in any Nusach Ashkenaz Shabat siddur.

    (I should add that I have no desire to change any of these minhagim; but we should be precise in our exposition of halachah. Personally, we never bake enough bread to require taking challah, and I only light candles when traveling out of town, or when my wife, a physician, is busy saving someone’s life as Shabat comes in.)

    #1065024
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Personally, we never bake enough bread to require taking challah

    Eeees bakes just about every week and takes challah. And on the odd occasion that I make the challos for shabbos, I take challah from the dough.

    The Wolf

    #1065025
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Is a goy allowed to take challah?

    #1065026
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    a goy can take challah along with the leichter

    #1065027

    AYC – good answer

    #1065028
    hanib
    Participant

    pba just started this thread cuz he didn’t like having “member” as his subtitle, and he’s too “cool” to ask for his subtitle back. 😉

    DY – pba claims that he takes hashkafa and halacha seriously.

    anyways, can’t answer this question cuz in pba’s own definition of what is judaism he excludes what women do. it’s all in your definiton. if definition of Jew, means coming from Avraham, Yitzchok, and Yaakov, then women are also Jews. (which is how Torah defines Jews; thus we, men and women, are all B’nei Yisroel – we all are called “children of Ya’akov, whose name was changed to Yisroel). thus, reform, conservative, and orthodox whose mothers, etc. go way back to Yaakov are Jews. someone who did not convert appropriately and did not descend from a jewish mother isn’t Jewish, even if he has a bris, keeps shabbos, etc. etc.

    if someone makes up their own definiton and therefore proves that women are not Jewish based on that definition, can’t argue. can’t argue with proofs when the basic theorem is all wrong.

    #1065029
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY – pba claims that he takes hashkafa and halacha seriously.

    Yes, I suppose this thread puts a bit of question mark on that.

    and he’s too “cool” to ask for his subtitle back. 😉

    Maybe I wanted to earn it back, so that it wouldn’t be ???? ???????.

    #1065030
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    choc,

    thanks

    #1065031
    hanib
    Participant

    for thse who get upset, don’t take everything you read so seriously. some people like to argue and to think “out of the box”. skip those threads, if you don’t enjoy them. althoough we all are Jews, we do all have different temperaments and different tastes; that’s why there are so many threads – so we can say, “that’s the thread, i don’t post in.” 🙂

    #1065032
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    thank you bina.

    I agree with everything you said except the third line.

    #1065033
    hanib
    Participant

    Maybe I wanted to earn it back, so that it wouldn’t be ???? ???????.

    lol! (though i think that this sentence is actually truth; leading us to believe that truth can be funnier than fiction).

    #1065034
    hanib
    Participant

    Yes, I suppose this thread puts a bit of question mark on that.

    i would put that line in BOLD if i knew how, so everyone can see it. unfortunately, the only thing i learned how to do in the CR was to italicize. 🙁

    #1065035
    hanib
    Participant

    thank you bina.

    I agree with everything you said except the third line.

    don’t worry about that. you’re just human.

    it’s hard for most people to admit when they are wrong. 😉

    By the way, is aba bar dad, any relation to pba or just an attempt to copy the origianl?

    #1065039
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    By the way, is aba bar dad, any relation to pba or just an attempt to copy the origianl?

    It is my father.

    #1065040
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    i would put that line in BOLD if i knew how, so everyone can see it.

    it’s the same as italics except write strong in the <> </>

    #1065041
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Women are not Jew-ish. We are Jew – Isha. “

    ROTF!!! Love it!!!!!

    #1065042
    hanib
    Participant

    thanks, mbachur

    pba – ah, so you were pulling a joseph on us. i tried finding the post now – either it disappeared or i keep missing it, but i thought the person was arguing against pba.

    #1065043
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    He was not pulling a Joseph. I am pretty sure it was his father posting, not him. If he were Joseph he would be posting himself under a different screenname

    #1065044
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    There are about 3.5 Billion women in the world and most are not Jewish so I think we can use a Rov to pasken that women are not Jewish.

    #1065045
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Michele Obama and Hilary Clinton are women.

    Michele Obama and Hilary Clinton are not Jewish.

    Therefore, women are not Jewish.

    Simple logic!

    #1065046
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    mICHELE oBAMA is dark therefore all sefardim are not jewish.

    connection?????

    #1065048
    BTGuy
    Participant

    YW Moderator – 42. I beg to differ. Your syllogism is neither simple nor logic.

    Your categorical propositions, from which your conclusion is to be inferred, do not contain the very necessary defined structure of including, “All”, “Some”, or “No”. For example, “All” Michele Obamas are….or “Some” Michele Obamas are….. or “No” Michele Obamas are……Therefore…yadda yadda yadda….would make for valid propositions that can then be argued.

    They are structurally incomplete and logically leading us to a faulty, albeit, humorous conclusion.

    Nonetheless, I am just the messenger. You will have to take it up with Aristotle. It’s his gig. lol

    #1065049
    oomis
    Participant

    Women are more Jewish than men. They clearly require NONE of the things mentioned (i.e. tzitzis, yarmulkes, davening in a minyan, OR bris) because they are more Jewishly complete without any of those things. MEN OTOH, need all those things, to strengthen their connection to Yiddishkeit. And no Jewish man produces a Jewish child WITHOUT a Jewish woman. The converse, however, is not true.

    Not every descendant of Avraham Avinu is Jewish. he also had a Yishmael.

    #1065052
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    oomis:

    OK back to square one (that’s what 42 intended). So according to your (???) logic, goyim are more Jewish then Jews. They don’t need the mitzvohs that Jews do! Yisraelim are more holy than Kohanim, they don’t require those additional ‘reminders’…

    Let me try to reiterate (again..)

    The little Chazal I’ve come across CLEARLY state the opposite. A person’s Jewishness (halachakly) is evaluated by his/her Mitzvah OBLIGATION status. In the order a man says birchas hashachar. (goy, eved isha) – indeed that is the REASON for those brochos. A (real) Jewish woman, feeling a longing for this loss, submits her longing to HaShem’s decision, and says Sheasani Kirtzono. Any other attempt to misinterpret, misconstrue its real meaning is just that.

    #1065053
    ✡onegoal™
    Participant

    Didn’t Rashi’s daughters wear tefilin?

    #1065054
    zaidy78
    Participant

    Is your left hand worse than you right hand? After all your right hand is stronger, you write with the right hand, so who needs left hands? Are left hands even part of the human body? Would you prefer two right hands and no left hands??

    Just as the left compliments the right hand, so to a woman compliments a man? Does that make women any less? Of course not! They just have a different task in life, equally (or even more) important, just different!!

    #1065055

    There are about 3.5 Billion women in the world and most are not Jewish so I think we can use a Rov to pasken that women are not Jewish.

    –Mod 42

    I don’t get it. If most of the women in the world are not jewish, why do you need a rabbi to pasken that women aren’t jewish?

    (just kidding. I’m not really THAT dense).

    Also, thanks for reviving this hilarious thread. I missed it the first time around.

    Popa,

    its been a while since you started a thread like this, what’s pshat?

Viewing 50 posts - 51 through 100 (of 179 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.