Brachos on Pizza

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  • #591987

    I once asked a rav what bracha pizza is and he said hamotzi and there is NO source for saying mezonos. Anyone does have a source for this?

    #984732

    Dave Hirsch
    Participant

    It is a difficult Halacha in Orach Chaim 168.

    #984733

    Dave Hirsch
    Participant

    He probably meant more than one slice. But one slice (if kneaded with a percent (amount is disputed) of juice, and doesn’t have much vegetables is generally okay (according to many Poskim). Look in Taz (20), Igros Moshe 3;32, and Shevet Halevi 7;25). This Halacha must be learned thoroughly to decide upon.

    #984734

    WIY
    Member

    Taken from Halachically speaking:

    Pizza: How Many Slices is a Seuda?

    When eating pizza one is faced with the question of

    how many slices would constitute a shiur kevias

    seuda to require washing and bentching?

    Many poskim say that even one slice of pizza is a

    meal for which one is required to wash and

    bentch. 76 Others say the shiur is two slices, 77 while

    others say that two slices would only constitute a meal if they are eaten with something else, such as a

    knish. 78 As mentioned above, there is a dispute if

    pizza is a meal food or a snack food. Therefore, one

    should decide why he is eating the pizza: if it is for

    a snack, then he should wash and bentch if he plans

    on eating more than two slices, and if he is eating it

    as a meal then he should wash even on one slice. 79

    have to wash and bentch according to everyone. On buying a

    slice of pizza and not a whole pie in regard to being a shaleim

    see Avnei Yushfei 3:21:8.

    page 24, Chai Moshe page 283, see Bais Avi 5:7-12.

    #984735

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I once learned this sugyah with a prominent Rav in Brooklyn. Here are the issues:

    When something is made with flour, it depends on what else goes into it. If it’s made as a standard bread, it always requires a hamotzi. If it has ingredients to give it a flavor other than standard bread (even if it’s not mixed directly into the dough), it’s called pas habah b’kisnin. Pas habah b’kisnin does not require a hamotzi unless you’re koveia seudah on it. Pizza, because it has sauce and cheese on it, falls into this category. That is why many people say that you only need to make hamotzi if you have 2 slices or more. However, that refers to fresh pizza. Many frozen pizzas, or pizza bagels, are made differently. They make the dough and bake it without anything else on it. They then put on sauce and cheese and immediately flash-freeze it. In such a case, it’s not pas habah b’kisnin, as the bread was baked without anything else on it. Once it’s considered bread, it doesn’t change status easily (there are some ways it can, but the pizza isn’t one of them.)

    Therefore, having one slice, if you’re not koveia seudah on it, does not require a hamotzi.

    #984738

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Years ago, I asked this question to the Rav of the shule where I grew up. His answer: “When the Rebbetzin makes pizza, I wash first and eat a slice of bread.”

    #984739

    after learning this specific issue in great depth we came out that if they are cut into mini little cracker sized cubes and eaten as snacks, then its mezonos, otherwise one must wash. I also double checked with my posek and he said one must wash on pizza.

    #984740

    hello99
    Member

    Assuming most people usually eat pizza as a meal and not a snack, it is always hamotzi. The cheese and tomato sauce is irrelevant as the Magen Avraham writes in the end of OC 168 (don’t remember the seif katan) that only sweet fillings that make something desert-like render a pastry pas haba’ah b’kisnin and not cheese etc. Even if the dough is made with fruit juice instead of water, it doesn’t help unless the dough becomes too sweet to eat as a meal, which is certainly NOT the case with pizza.

    #984741

    Feif Un
    Participant

    hello99, there are opinions which differ from the MA rearding pas haba’ah b’kisnin. I don’t remember exactly who, as it’s been a number of years since I learned the sugyah. I believe we don’t pasken like the MA in this case – certainly the Rav I learned it with (who works in the kashrus industry) said that pizza is pas haba’ah b’kisnin.

    #984742

    blockhead
    Participant

    I think the crux of the issue boils down to whether or not pizza is considered a snack. I don’t think anybody would consider two slices a snack.

    Sometimes one. I’ve certainly eaten one slice of pizza “to get the edge off”. On the other hand, sometimes I’ve sat down, and eaten one slice of pizza, with intent that this would be a meal.

    With the price of pizza going up nowadays, it’s getting harder and harder to classify it as a snack.

    #984743

    Feif Un
    Participant

    blockhead: Sometimes I’ll walk into my parents house after they had pizza for supper. ‘ll just grab a left over slice and eat it without even sitting down. Would you classify that as a meal?

    #984744

    blockhead
    Participant

    Feif Un: Definitely a snack in that case

    #984745

    hello99
    Member

    feif un: if most people usually eat it as a meal it has the status of pas gamur and your situation is irrelevant.

    #984746

    Here is a source that talks about it.

    http://mi.yodeya.com/questions/1818/pizza-and-washing

    #984747

    holy brother
    Participant

    Even if the dough has apple juice usually it is concentrate and is not enough to be considerd pas kisnin, even if there is rov of real juice, pashtus its not enough.

    Besides there is a machlokes rishonim in regards to the shutah that pas kisnen is “memmulah” filled if its only when its filled with sweets or even a mainstay, the shulachan aruch paskens acording to the mg”a that “pashtidah” is pas gamur, pizza is exactly pashtidah so pashtus pizza is not pas kisnin

    #984748

    theprof1
    Participant

    Rav Yakov Kaminetsky ztzl personally told me and several other bochurim that pizza is pas habo bekisnin. He said that one slice is mezonos if eaten without anything else. If you’re eating something else, even if not directly with the pizza, then its all mitztaref. In this case you must wash and make a motzi. Two slices is always hamotzi. This was before frozen pizza. Frozen pizza is often made by semi baking the dough, making it into bread with the requirement of hamotzi, then adding sauce and cheese, which does not make it into pas habo bekisnin. Also, and this is important, square pizza is always half baked first and then sauce and cheese so its always a motzi. Rov poskim rishonim and achronim do not agree with the Mogen Avrohom and say that any type of covering or filling is pas habo bekisnin. By the way, kokosh cake has the same halochos as pizza because the kokosh cake dough is kneaded, made into isoh, not just mixed like cake batter. Which means if you eat a piece of kokosh cake at a shabbos kiddush and then eat cake and crackers and kugel and chulent, you have to bentch.

    #984749

    BlessedRock
    Participant

    I want to throw a twist into this pizza thread. In order to make the pizza “mezonos” it has to be made with liquid other than water. Most companies will use juice. Mendelsons Pizza (and you can check the ingredients on their frozen line) uses juice/milk. Whether or not pizza is mezonos is not my point.

    My issue is does this make it “milchig bread” which is assur? in regards to the pizza it’s not a problem as the milchig dough is baked with a heker i.e. the cheese on top which makes it permissible to make. However they use the same ingredients for their Pizza Bagels; juice/milk. For pizza bagels they surely don’t bake the bagel together with the cheese on it, they bake the bagel THEN they put the cheese on top. Hence there was a “Milchig Bagel” which was assur.

    #984750

    cb1
    Member

    i dont know of any sources but i once asked Rav Dovid Feinstein Shlita what the brocha is for pizza and he said for 1 or 2 slices you make mezonos

    #984751

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I don’t think anybody would consider two slices a snack.

    For someone of my girth, two or three pies can be considered a snack.

    The Wolf

    #984752

    holy brother
    Participant

    theprof: incorrect the mechaber is clear like the mg”a and the mishbah brurah. so its r yakov vs them, rov poskim dont hold like that. and rov is not made up from all the brachos “books” ava at ur local bookshop.

    #984753

    holy brother
    Participant

    And pashtus burekas are the same

    #984754

    Moq
    Member

    There is another aspect – – that it may be that the rishonim in paas habah b’kisin are merely examples of snack-bread, but the real principles is it meal-bread, or snack bread. Is it meant to be filling? If that’s the case, one could say that pizza is a filling food, and even when you are not be koveah suedeh, you would have to wash, just like regular bread. A similar line of reasoning could be made for a bagel dog – even though it’s memulah, it’s meal bread. Or pancakes. Or blintzes. All would have this question. They are memulah, and may even be made with fruit juice, but it could be that that is not the crux of the issue, but the issue is – is a single blintz a snack? Or is it a meal food, merely you are snacking on it.

    Is pizza beztem a snack food – like cake ? Isn’t it betzem a meal? I mean, you could also eat bread as a snack.

    #984755

    oomis
    Participant

    milchig bread” which is assur”

    My understanding is that it is assur ONLY if it is actually indistinguishable from pareve bread. Clearly a slice of pizza is not about to be confused with a slice of Levy’s rye.

    #984756

    holy brother
    Participant

    There is no stand alone profile of snack and food, if one snacks on bread it is still bread, the proof is the fact that the rishonim disagree what pas habah nkisnin is, why waste time, whatever is eaten as a snack is kisnin, bread is bread. obvsly thats not the ruler.

    #984757

    Moq
    Member

    No, Tireh Bridah, that’s the shaala- are they disagreeing? Or are they just saying examples to illustrate the point.

    I have to dig up sources on this later. I think there’s a diyun on this in pischey brachos, I’ll check later.

    #984758

    dd
    Member

    OP says:

    “I once asked a rav what bracha pizza is and he said hamotzi and there is NO source for saying mezonos.”

    Does anyone else find it irritating when someone states their view by claiming that “there is NO source” for the opposing opinion?

    #984759

    holy brother
    Participant

    Moq: The rishonim are clearly disagreeing, they dont waste time and ink on examples. And for those that bother learning tur beis yosef and sh”a )not pischey brachos) the beis yosef ramah and all the poskim state clearly its a machlokes, so again its brachos books vs rishonim and poskim. After u take out some time to learn the rishonim and poskim, and put aside the brochos books, i will reveal a mareh makom that says like u, but obvsly “ayn halacho kumoso”, with all due respect, ur holy brother

    #984760

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    milchig bread” which is assur

    Cool. I had no idea I was sinning every time I buttered hot toast and ate it. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #984761

    squeak
    Participant

    Buttering your toast is OK.

    #984762

    Moq
    Member

    Holy,

    Honestly, I’m not particularly interested in what you have to say; given your childish – and insulting – and sourceless! totally sourceless! – way of expressing yourself. Please , do not trouble yourself on my behalf; I do not require your arrogance or ignorance. I do not need your assistance in learning, nor advice.

    I sincerely hope one day you learn how to speak like a Ben Torah.

    I refuse to engage the arrogant in a Torah discussion. Look at other threads, I have what to say. But not to you.

    The Torah is never expressed with arrogance or a patronizing tone. One may be sure that the speaker has never entered true Halachic knowledge; as the Chazon Ish explains – that without middos, Torah can never be attained.

    I am quoting the ruling of the Minchas Yitzchak, in the first chelek. I did not say that was the Halacha; I said it was a possibility. I was bringing in another possibility. This is the halachic process, not arrogance.

    And please drop the “due respect” garbage. Either speak respectfully, or don’t. But if you must speak like a child to satiate your ego, at least be brave enough to leave off the silly disclaimer. I will not take part in discussion with you further.

    #984763

    blinky
    Participant

    YOu can make your bread once its baked milchig (butter..) But you cant initially bake it milchig unless you put a sign on it.

    #984764

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Buttering your toast is OK.

    Of course it is. There’s no issur on *making* milchig bread. It’s only on eating it. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #984765

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    YOu can make your bread once its baked milchig (butter..) But you cant initially bake it milchig unless you put a sign on it.

    I know, I know. I’m just kidding around. (Hence the smiley).

    The Wolf

    #984766

    squeak
    Participant

    Wolf-

    Can you define the criteria for your selective application of logical thought?

    #984767

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Squeak,

    It’s just a joke. Let it go… I didn’t mean for it to be taken seriously.

    The Wolf

    #984768

    hello99
    Member

    The Derech HaChaim a.k.a. Maaseh Nissim writes that there is no machlokes and Rav S.Z. Auerbach zatal paskened this way. The Biur Halacha brings a similar concept from the Maamar Mordechai.

    #984769

    holy brother
    Participant

    heloo 99: derech hachayim correct, but hemayeyn shum yireh, hes arguing with the beis yosef ramah etc, mishnah brurah entertains such a possibilty, again if rsh”z paskens like the derech hachayim and hes ur rav in all great, otherwise the halachas is like the shulchan oruch. Besides i was pointing out that rov poskim dont hold that way, the fellow was counting brachos books for rov.

    Mr moq: No hard feeling brachos books are great, i just thought u were male, im sorry

    #984770

    tomim tihye
    Member

    holy brother:

    If you would know whom you addressed, you’d retract that last comment b’zrizus.

    #984771

    holy brother
    Participant

    tomim tihyeh: why hes female?

    #984772

    theprof1
    Participant

    There is no question that pizza, even if not made with juice but made with pure water, is called pas habo b’kisnin. And all poskim agree with that concept. However even pas habo b’kisnin can return to the concept of actual bread if eaten as a meal, not a snack. And Rav Yakov ztzl said exactly that. A person eats 1 slice as a snack and at 2 slices, there is a concept of going according to normal practices which makes it a meal rather than a snack. 2 slices is a definite lunch meal concept. Adding juice alone gives the dough a possibility to be mezonos, if the eater adheres to certain criteria. If you buy a mezonos roll with tuna in it and eat it in your car or at the zoo etc, its mezonos because that’s not the way a person is koveah a seudah. However going into a breakfast place and ordering mezonos roll with scrambled eggs and salad and coffee and sitting down at the table, that is a no brainer koveah seudah and you have to wash. The same would be if you order 1 slice of pizza at lunch with a salad and a drink, that’s koveah seudah. If you take it home, its koveah seudah. This is the psak halocho of every current respected accepted posek. Any other psak is using lots of kulos.

    #984773

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    prof:

    I think you are making a mistake. Pizza is pretty clearly in the category discussed by the shulchan aruch in 168:17 regarding pashtida. The din of pashtida is that it is not pas kisnim at all, and one always makes hamotzi.

    See beur halacha BD”H pashtida; There is a taz which says that a filling of meat or fish makes a food pas kisnim, and therefore only hamotzi when eaten in a shiur kvias seudah (I assume cheese has the same status). The beur halacha restricts this din to small pastries made as a snack, like pigs in a blanket.

    Accordingly, pizza will be real pas, and will be hamotzi even when eaten in small amounts.

    It bears noting here, that the din of “kovea seuda” as commonly referenced, is not completely correct. See mechaber 168:6, that one’s personal intentions are irrelevant, and the din is that if one eats the amount of kvias seuda, that is when one must make hamotzi. Therefore, even if one is eating cookies as a meal, if one eats less than the amount people normally eat as a meal, one must make mezonos.

    The amount normally eaten as a meal is a machlokes. It is either 3-4 beitzim, or, the amount eaten at a seudas erev u’boker. MB 168:24

    #984774

    theprof1
    Participant

    Popa did you even read my post? I don’t think so. For one thing thank you for citing halochos that agree with what I said. Pizza is not pashtida at all, nothing even close. Your 2nd paragraph is an exact definition of pizza, thank you so much. You should also really read what you write after you write it. You do a nice job of contradiction. Pashtida that the mechber talks about is analagous to what we call Chicago pizza, that is its covered top and bottom. Since the main idea of this dish is to become full, it has meat or fish or cheese which also fill, automatically it isn’t a snack but rather kevuas seudah. Whereas 1 slice of plain pizza is quite often eaten as a snack and is therefore mezonos.

    #984775

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I reread my post and it sounds a bit obnoxious. Sorry.

    I do stand by what I wrote though.

    #984776

    theprof1
    Participant

    Popa that’s OK, stand exactly to what you said because basically what you wrote just proves with citations what I had said earlier. Again thanks. I really do know halocho and I know it quite clearly. Yes I’m bragging.

    #984777

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok, I’m clearly misunderstanding you.

    You are contending that it is different from pashtida in what way?

    #984778

    holy brother
    Participant

    pappa_bar_abba: way to go u are 10000% right!!! and most poskim even todays in ey, agree. theprof there is no dif btwn pizza and pashtidah, the fact that pashtida is covered on all sides is a “chiluk” without a “mechalek”, only qs left are 1. is the halacha like the piskey harid, pashtus of mechaber, mg”a and m”b’ or like the tanya rabsy taz. 2. is the dough changed to make it pas habu bkisnin regardless if its duznt have the kulah of memmulah. and one more thing if ur bragging im willing to take u to the task in ANY birchas hanehnin shailoh!!!! and no i wont tell u whi i am, ud be quite surprised!!

    #984779

    twisted
    Participant

    Fief Un: that would be called sticking your head in a machlokes. If nothing else was eaten at the meal, maybe you are just a latecommer, and you should bench with them. As in MOM WHATS FOR DINNER?1 Um,.. lets do pizza. Kvias Seudah. Case closed.

    #984780

    twisted
    Participant

    Also rabosai, consider this gem: In a compendium on chagim, I found a quoted maamar of the Chazon Ish regardng kezais. He says that Hakodosh Baruch Hu knew we would be subject to exiles and wanderings, thus in his mercy, he gave us natural signs for the shiurim. Hence a kzayis is the size of an olive in every time and every place relative to that place. The responses to this fell into two basic groups: Group A) that not what he said, thats not what he meant, he said it but not lhoros, he didnt mean it that way. he meant it but didn’t say it …..

    Group b) took it and reasoned that the largest possible olive in our times is the the shiur (California Colossal?) and so a Kzayis is about 20 ml or the (outside)volume of two soda bottle caps, or a small size match box, and this is the shiur for all mitzvos and bracha aharona.

    Now if we go with group B, one slice of pizza is clearly more than two or three kzaisim, and for the deah that says that kvias seudah is based on quantity, One slice shouold be hamotzi and benching.

    #984781

    hello99
    Member

    2-3 kezaisim is NOT the shiur of kevias seuda

    #984782

    twisted
    Participant

    So Hello, how many colossals go in to the average or large egg or achilas pras. The theory postulated was very un niskatnu hashiurim. Next time you have pizza, try squashing it into a ml gradated measure. I will do the same, and we can compare slice statistics.

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