Covering hair once married.

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  • #594316

    i love coffe
    Member

    Here is a question that was once posed to me and i had no idea how to answer them without giving a cop out answer.

    Why do women have to cover their hair when they are married, but we need to keep shomer negia before we are married etc.?

    Can someone shed some light on to this? I know women have to keep their hair special for their husbands, but what is the difference with the other “rules” like shomer negia, etc. Is there a different level of “specialness” to it?

    #730176

    Feif Un
    Member

    I once heard that a kabbalistic explanation for this, Unfortunately the moderator has edited out the explanation for modesty reasons

    As for other things such as shomer negiah, they are all in place to prevent men and women from giving into their temptations and doing something wrong. From the kabbalistic view I heard, the hair only becomes an issue after the night of the wedding, so it doesn’t need to be covered beforehand. Touching someone can cause issues before marriage, so it’s forbidden then also.

    #730177

    Covering hair is not related to shomer negiah.

    When a woman gets married her hair gets the status of any other body part that needs to be covered and therefor needs to be covered.

    Shomer negiah is a fence that was put in place to prevent people from transgressing more serious laws.

    #730178

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    There is an opinion that negia is d’oriasa me’asmachta from Vayikra 18:6. Anyone who has a source, please let me know.

    #730179

    Negiah shel chibah (nishuk etc) in and of itself is assur midoraisa, acording to the Rambam, if you arent married (other may say its derabonon). At times, just touching may enter the 3 of “ye’herag, v’aal yaavor”.

    #730180

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Sources please? Also, while RaMBaM distinguishes between chiba and not, the mechaber doesn’t. There is a big machlokes whether the omission was davka or lav davka. (I couldn’t say “deliberate” because that would open a whole ‘nother can of worms.)

    #730181

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Rambam in Issurei Biah (I believe 21:1) says that Negiah is D’oraisa. No one really disagrees. The Ramban brings down a Deah that it might be D’rabannan but even he doesn’t hold like it. According to the Rambam it would be Yeherav V’al Ya’avor. However, the majority seems to agree with Tosafos that Negiah is it’s own Issur and isn’t considered Giluy Arayos and therefore would not be Yeherag V’al Ya’avor.

    #730184

    mdd
    Member

    Negia shel chiba is de’Oraisa and “yehareg ve’lo ya’avor”. Look in Shach in Yore Deya, Halochos of Yeahareg ve’lo Ya’avor.

    Covering the hair in the street is also min’HaTorah — Kesubos 72A.

    #730188

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Whether negi’ah is assur mi’doraisa, mi’d’rabbanan, or even muttar, is a machlokes amora’im in Shabbos (13a) and Avodah Zarah (17a).

    Assuming it is assur, and it was mentioned that the Rambam paskens it is d’oraisa, it is a fence put in place to distance one from the actual act of giluy arayos. (Yes there are fences that are d’oraisa. The classic example is the prohibition of a nazir to eat grapes.)

    Covering hair, IMHO, has nothing to do with arayos. I once wrote an essay on this and I had a number of problems trying to say it is indeed because of ervah,* and the truth is you wont find me a single rishon who explains it this way.

    And by the way, the Rambam who learns that negi’ah is d’oraisa, understands that covering hair is only d’rabbanan. The Terumas Hadeshen (1:242) writes: ???? ????”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??????.

    *???? ???? ?? ??? ????, ???? ??? ??? ??????, ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???. ??????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????, ??”? ???? ???? ?????????? ???? ???? ???, ??? ??????? ??????. ???? ???”? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???, ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????. ???? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ???????. ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????

    #730189

    yitayningwut: Nor the Rambam nor the commentaries say that it is prohibited as a fence. It is explained as assur in and of itself. Deriving pleasure in such a fashion is prohibited, period.

    If you have a source stating otherwise I shall be corrected.

    #730190

    mdd
    Member

    The Gemora in Kesubos says that covering the hair is de’Oraysa!!(there are additional Halochos de’Rabbonon about that, but the ikar is min ha’Torah)

    Rabbiofberlin , maybe, you want to melamed ze’chus on the Jews of Bais Rishon by saying that avoda zara is not me’de’Oraysa??

    Chibuk ve’nishuk is negia shel chiba, for example.

    #730191

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    truth be told-

    You are incorrect. First of all, the Rambam himself writes, (I.B. 21:1) ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ????. Clearly he is understanding the issur of ????? as a fence. Furthermore, the ???? ???? says this openly; he writes in halacha 6, ???’ ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????. Moreover, in svarah I don’t understand why you would assume any other way. ?????? this pshat should be the ‘????? ??????’.

    mdd-

    True the gemara says those words. But there are places when the gemara says d’oraisa and it simply refers to an asmachta.

    If you’re interested, here’s more from that shtickel I wrote a while back:

    ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???????? ???. ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???????, ??? (??????? ?? ?:) ???? ??? ????? ?????? (????? ?:??) ????? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????, ??”? ??? ???? ???? (??”? ???’ ??????? ?”?) ??????? ??? (???? ???? ???? ??”? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?”? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?????), ???? ???? (?????? ?? ??:) ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? (????? ??:??) ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????? ???? ?????, ????? ????”? (?”? ???’ ???”? ??”?), ????? ????? ????”? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????. ??? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???. ?? ?? ????? ??? ????”? ??????? ???? ?????’ ??? (??”? ???’ ????? ??”?) ???? ?? ???’ ?? ??? ???’ ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??, ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ????, ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? – ??? ????? ????? ??”? ???’ ???”? (?”? ?”?). ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? (???’ ????? ??) ????”? ???”? ???? ??? ???????, ???? ??”? ?”? ???? ??? ????”? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????. ????? ???”? ????? ????”? ???? ????? ????”? ?????? ?”? ?????? ??? ??????? ???”? ????? ???? ?? ???. ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? (?”? ??’ ???) ???? ????”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?”? ?? ????? ?????? ?”? ??? ???????? ?? ??, ?”?. ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????’ ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????, ??”? ?”? ?? ??? ???????? ?? ?????. ???? ?????? ????? ???”? ?????”? ???”? ?????”? ??”? ???? ??? ??????, ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??”?.

    #730193

    Health
    Participant

    SJS -While you modern people might have a heter not to cover hair, I see the same women with short sleeves. What heter do you have to go with short sleeves?

    #730196

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Issur of Lo Sikr’vu may be to avoid leading to greater Issurim, but the fact remains that it is its own Lav (Lav 353 in the Sefer Hamitzvos) and that you would get Malkos for it by itself. The reason for the Lav does not necessarily matter as it is its own Lav.

    #730197

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Health-

    Short sleeves are way easier to be mattir then uncovered hair.

    I’m not paskening, only saying that when you are analyzing the sugyas and the halacha it is much easier to be melamed zchus on those who wear short sleeves, pants, etc. than those who wear their hair uncovered.

    I am actually curious to know if you can find me one clear source in the gemara and rishonim that any dress code is required, apart from not dressing in a markedly provocative manner.

    #730198

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Sam2-

    I was told by my Rebbi, Rav Tzvi Berkowitz, that the halacha is in accordance with R’ Shimon that ?????? ???? ????, if none of the applications implied are disputed in the gemara.

    #730201

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Health-

    Let me explain. Those who maintain that a woman must dress a certain way generally source their claim in the fact that the gemara calls certain body parts ervah. There is a lot of room to say that those things are subjective and have everything to do with time and place. The hair covering halacha, on the other hand, is not just because of that gemara which calls hair ervah. Therefore it is more difficult to be mattir.

    #730202

    Health
    Participant

    SJSinNYC -Would this apply to leg also that the Shok would be the hip and not the knee? Also, please find out who held like this, even a contempory Poisek.

    #730203

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    “yitai…” “Short sleeves,pants…are easier to be mattir than uncovered hair” I am in full accordance with you on pants (see bach and other achronim), but I am not sure what you mean by ‘short sleeves”. How about sleeveless? is there a line to be drawn anywhere?

    #730204

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Gemara in this case agrees with that as we have cases of Amoraim that were “over” on this but it was allowed because they felt no attraction whatsoever. Although in this case the Ta’ama Dikra is actually Meforash. It’s only things that have a physical pleasure that are Assur. It’s not like Yichud where to be Assur you need Yichud Hara’oy L’Biah. Even if there is no chance of Bi’ah in this situation there still is an issur of Lo Sikr’vu. There is no Inyan of “Kirvah Hara’oy L’Biah” anywhere.

    #730206

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin-

    As long as it is the norm in that time and place and does not give hirhur to the average individual, I think it shouldn’t be too hard to be melamed zchus.

    Sam2-

    What do you mean by “there is no inyan of kirvah haraui l’biah”? Who says?

    #730207

    Sam2
    Participant

    Rabbi, some hold that Z’roah means only the shoulder. Also, there are Shittos that since it says “Tefach B’Ishah Ervah” as well you are allowed a full three inches above the elbow.

    #730208

    Sam2
    Participant

    The leg is definitely stricter as everyone agrees that the area from the hip to the knee (at least) is the Shok. There are those that apply the 3-inch Heter mentioned above to the leg as well, though I have heard that that is much rarer. Pashut Pshat (in just what the word means) should be that the knee itself is okay as it is not part of the thigh. Presumably the reason we are so strict about the knee is that it would be very hard to have the knee uncovered and still have every bit of skin above the knee covered.

    #730209

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I have to go now, be back soon.

    #730212

    Sam2
    Participant

    Sorry Yitay. You have to show me someone who does say that it’s only Assur if it’s Ra’oy L’Biah. Otherwise, Mistimas Divrei Haposkim, we will assume that the Issur D’Orasisa applies to what the Poskim say it applies to-any Kirvas Basar that has physical Hana’ah.

    #730213

    yitayningwut: I see what you’re saying. I’ll have to look into it. Don’t have the seforim here. I do remember otherwise, but I may be wrong

    #730214

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Sam2, look at the Rama, I believe in E”H 22, who says the minhag is to be meikil on many things. From what I read, which seems almost impossible for me to believe that I am understanding it right, men were allowed to have a female servant bathe them. I assume this involved some physical contact, but do not know what the Rama means. If somebody can shed light on this, and explain, please do so.

    One of the nosei keilim there says that these restrictions all depend on the type of person one knows himself to be. That is why some amoraim picked up the kallah to dance with her.

    #730215

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I wrote an earlier posting responding to “mdd” but it was ignored so let me answer him briefly. Actually, “yitaiy….” has done a masteful job in showing sources whether uncovered hair is d’oraisa. Thanks, especially for the “terumas Hadeshen’ that I did not know.

    I wanted to respond to “mdd’ question whether I would be ‘dan lekaf zechus” for the “ovdei avodah zoroh” of bayis rishon? Actually, “mdd’, yes, I would be ‘melamed zechus” on any jew, regardless of the sin. This is how Moshe rabbeinu conducted himself, how the nevi’im acted and how all our gedolim went about for centuries. You should remonstrate them (hochocho) but, in the final analysis, you must be a “senegoir” an advocate for any Jew.

    #730216

    Sam2
    Participant

    Pashuteh Yid. I am familiar with that Rama (I believe the Siman is 21) where after the Shulchan Aruch gives the details of Issurei Kirvah the Rama adds on his own ideas and then is Melamed Zechus by saying at the end “Hakol Lesheim Shamayim”. But that is the point. If it Lesheim Shamayim then there is no Hana’ah and therefore no Issur. If there is physical Hana’ah then it is an Issur D’Oraisa of Kiruv Basar B’Derech Chibah (Lo Sikr’vu).

    #730217

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    So Sam2, how does that fit in with the handshaking thread of a few months back? Wouldn’t it be lshem shomayim to shake the hand of an interviewer or a non-frum person at a chasuna if they extend it, instead of making them uncomfortable?

    #730218

    mdd
    Member

    This is outrageous. This is Yeshiva WN, not Modern- matir everything wildly-WN. It would take me half a day to answer all the shvere kulos over here.SJSin, there are those who claim RambaM ALLOWED BEATING ONE’S WIFE. Like that?

    Rabbiof, it is good to melamed zechus but not by being oker Halocha!!!

    Yitay!! Most Poskim hold it does not depend on the minhag ha’mokom. And this opinion does not fit the reality — even if ladies in a certain place wear very open clothing, a man does not get used to it. Whom are we kidding??

    Trumas Hadeshen, means that covering all hair is derabbonon, but the ikar covering is de’Oraysa. (Chofets Chaim writes it’s de’Oraysa).

    Plus, all these ba’ALEI AVEIROS DON’T HAVE ALL THESE heterim in mind. They do it because of ta’avos.

    Bekitsur, why don’t you go and open the Everything-mutar.com?

    #730219

    pretty frustrating isnt it?

    welcome to modern america.

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