When does a man have a halachic right to divorce his wife? When does a man have a halachic obligation to divorce his wife? When does a man have no halachic right to divorce his wife?
When does a wife have a halachic right to demand a divorce? When does a wife have no halachic right to demand a divorce?
I stand to be corrected but I think the Gemoroh says that even if a wife mistakenly burns her husbands meal while cooking, he has grounds for divorce....
if you are really looking for advice i can tell you to go to a rav. if you just wanna talk and hock about anything and this is a topic that interests you then keeop it up
Aishes Chayil, I heard that too.
Aishes Chayil: I don't think we hold like that. All of these are Mishnayos in the second (third?) to last Perek of Kesubos.
The question is phrased rather vaguely so it appears that the person is asking out of curiosity and a desire to know more about something.
I think it was highly inappropriate to say he wants "talk and hock about anything" due to his asking this question. This is a place for discussion is it not? He asked a question. If you don't want to partake in answering him, that's fine. Why insult him?
Learn the gemara Gittin
@Sam2:
Actually, I think we hold that purely al pi halacha, there is no reason that he CAN'T divorce her (last mishna in Gittin). It's strongly discouraged, of course, but there's a 3-way machlokes and I think we go the third way.
@Shmoel:
I believe the only time he has a chiyuv to divorce her (assuming, of course, that it's a legal marriage) would be if she has been unfaithful to him. If he's a Kohen there could be other situations as well.
I hope that this is a purely hypothetical question; if it is being asked for any specific reason I hope that everything works out as well as possible for all involved.
Hatzlocha.
I don't believe that you can take Halacha just pshat. You have to go to a RAV and look at the details of each case. Nothing is as simple as pshat. I am currently involved in a case where the man's Rav said the woman did not have to toivel because HE was abusive. Then the same Rav referred to her as a moredes. Obviously her RAV did NOT agree, nor did the other Rabbonim asked.
I am purposely using these terms because of those who should not be exposed this discussion and I am reminding all to be careful what you disclose on this thread.
If one dosen't toivel she is a "moredes", if he is abusive then she has a valid reason to be a "moredes". There is no halacha that states that one is not alowed to be a moredes its only that she is forgoing her kesubah.
Does Shulchan Aruch state that under certain circumstances a wife may be moredes?
Do the Rishonim tell us if and when a woman is ever entitled to insist on receiving a get (even if he would rather not provide it)?
(P.S. The discussion is academic.)
What is a "moredes"? Does that come from the word "lehoreed" (as in "one who brings down")?
If her husband is not interested in her anyway, is she still considered a moredes??
She had a hetter not to toivel therefor she is NOT a moredes.
Limrod (Shoresh of Moredes) means to rebel.
The Rev. Pat Robertson said today that in certain cases, a man can divorce his wife if she has Alzheimer's disease.
I know he's not a rebbe, but I am a bit shocked by his remarks.
Rabbi Nachman of Breslov wrote man should do everything in his power to avoid a divorce.
All halachos pertaining to when a man may divorce his wife, or when a woman may demand a divorce from her husband depend on time , place and social mores. In all cases, a competent Rav must be consulted, and the answer may well be different today than it was 100, 300 or 1000 years ago.
If I understand correctly, Halacha states (as we pasken) that a man can give a get for any reason. But a woman cannot demand one for any reason.
Doesn't Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom prevent a man from giving a get without his wife's consent? But that would only be applicable to Ashkenazim. Sefardim, Teimanim and others wouldn't have that restriction.
shmoel -"If I understand correctly, Halacha states (as we pasken) that a man can give a get for any reason."
Where did you get the above from? Absolutely not! It's not a Hefker Velt!
AC -"I stand to be corrected but I think the Gemoroh says that even if a wife mistakenly burns her husbands meal while cooking, he has grounds for divorce...."
Ok, since you're standing I'll correct you. While it does say that, s/o explains Pshat like this- What happened here? If she burnt both hers' and her husbands', so she doesn't care about herself and him. In this case, there aren't any grounds for divorce. If she burnt a meal meant for him and then takes it for herself and then makes another one for him, she's a Tzaddeikes! The case were he's allowed to divorce is like this -She made a meal either for herself or for both of them and then it burnt. She then makes another one for herself and gives him the burnt one!
Ron, you might be interested to know that in many cases a get cannot be given if the wife has alzheimers, even if there are valid grounds. This is because halacha requires the woman to understand she is being divorced.
Shmoel: Being Megaresh a woman Ba'al Korchah was always Assur. The Cherem of Rabbeinu Gershom just strengthened it.
Sam: Source?
Health,
Tks for elaborating. Now I can sit down:)
Gregaron;
Its not so simple to divorce if she was unfaithful unless there are witness and warning. Certain questiions have to be adressed and answered in very specific time scales . Its more complicated.
A kohen THOUGH, has to divorce evn just with rumours.
Rav Schachter has said it twice this year, quoting a Ran.
I'd learned that the reason the burned meal is given is actually to camouflage the true reason and prevent embarrassment.
Think of "irreconcilable differences" which doesn't itemize those differences.
AC: warnings are certainly not necessary and even witnesses are unnecessary.
Sam: Which Ran? And what aspect needed/was strengthed by R. Gershom?
Arent there supposed to be Eidim and Hasruoh?
AC: if there are that, then she is executed. If it is established without that, she must be divorced.
AC: That's just to give the death penalty.
Shmoel: I do not know where the Ran is. I think it was a Ran. R' Schachter said it. And apparently people did it so it needed to be strengthened. Does anyone think that reading someone else's mail wasn't Assur before Rabbeinu Gershom?
@AishesChayil:
I think that you may be mixing up the obligation to divorce with there being a death penalty (which requires witnesses and a warning) or her forfeiting her kesubah (which needs witnesses, but not a warning). If the husband knows that his wife is being unfaithful, even without any witnesses, he has to divorce her (although I have been involved with cases where the psak was that if the husband does not know, there is no chiyuv to tell him). And out of curiosity, where did you hear that a Kohen has to divorce her even based on a rumor?
Are witnesses necessary to carry out a death sentence for adultery? It is almost implausible for that to occur, as it is a private act.
Sam: You haven't addressed gregaaron's point early in the thread where he said:
Actually, I think we hold that purely al pi halacha, there is no reason that he CAN'T divorce her (last mishna in Gittin). It's strongly discouraged, of course, but there's a 3-way machlokes and I think we go the third way.
witnesses are necessary! unlikely as it may seem
witnesses to seclusion are not enough (as they are by Sotah)
theres a whole arichus in the Gemorah with machlochusim about exactly what needs to be witnessed, what actually constitutes adultery in technical detail
were not going to discuss that here however
Mod-80: Do you know which daf (or Perek/Mesechta)?
its somewhere between eruvin and zevachos in the order of Daf Yomi,
my memory does not serve me better than that, sorry
@Tums:
If you want, you can check out the Gemara at the end of the first perek of Makos, which discusses your question.
The RAN in Nedarim (90b) writes that a woman does not have the right to forbid herself to her husband, because she has no right to take herself out of her husband's domain since she is bound by a contractual agreement to stay with him. He also is bound by a contractual agreement (in the Kesuvah) to remain married to her. But the husband has the power to divorce his wife whenever he wants.
What Rav Schachter said was that there is an Issur D'Oraisa to divorce your wife without reason against her will. The divorce still works, it's just Assur to do.
old man: The halachos pertaining to this are the same today as they were 100 or 300 years ago. The halachos do not change based upon the goyish (or other) social mores of the moment and place.
Shlishi: Of course the Halachos don't change. But the Halachah does say that the wife doing something socially unacceptable is cause for divorce (because he married her assuming she followed social norms). Socially unacceptable behavior always depends on the place and time.
Sam: what about the other way around when the husband does something socially unacceptable and against halacha shouldnt she have the right to a divorce her husband without his will.
Razzle: In that case she would also have the right to request a divorce. It's a G'zeiras Hakasuv that a man divorces the woman and not vice versa. But yes, there should be no reason for this to be different. A woman is well within her rights to say that her husband commits socially unacceptable actions and that it embarrasses her/causes her problems in the community and that she wants a divorce.
Is there any halacha which permits a wife to force her husband to give her a get because she feels embarassed? Which halacha (if any)?
I know a case where there was talk about a woman being unfaithful.
The husband said he was not mikabel the rumour and they stayed together.
Re- Kohen,
I meant to say if the wife of a Kohen is seen in a suspiocious situation with another man (such as out having drinks), that would consitute a Ch'shash that there MIGHT be infidelity.
Whereeas if the wife of a Yisroel is seen in the scenerio, its not enough grounds for divorce.
Isnt it a fact that a Kohen is not allowed to remarry a woman he divorced whereas its would be a MITZVAH for a Yisroel to do so? (even if she was unfaithful)?
@AishesChayil:
I don't think you are right about the Kohen having to divorce due to just a ch'shash, although I still may be wrong about that. I would imagine that if the Kohen is truly worried about infidelity he should investigate it fully, but I don't think we would actually make him divorce her. I definitely do think you are mistaken about there being a Mitzvah for a Yisroel to remarry an unfaithful wife, however.
AC: If a wife was actually unfaithful then it is forbidden for the Yisrael to remarry er.
Halacha delineates under what circumstances a Beis Din is able to require a husband provide a get upon a wife's petition for it. In the absence of meeting halacha's enumerated circumstances for that, she is not entitled to demand one.
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