Har HaBayis Revisited

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  • #616355

    Is it not time that Yeshiva World removes that cute, but anachronistic disclaimer about it being asur to ascend the permitted areas of the Mekom HaMikdash. These days the places where most religious people go are permitted, and the areas that are forbidden are clearly delineated and well know.

    #1112268

    Joseph
    Participant

    It’s forbidden to ascend to any parts thereof.

    #1112269

    mobico
    Participant

    Hard to revisit unless you’ve been there once – which of course you haven’t, since the Gedolim Aser doing so.

    #1112270

    Cute, Mobico.

    Depends which Gedolim, though. Some permit ascending.

    Joseph: Why do you say it is Forbidden? Is there a halachic basis for that, or just because “EVERYONE knows” it is forbidden?

    #1112271

    even if it was mutar to ascend har habayis, there are many other sins that are done when a person ascends other then the one main sin of not ascending har habayis.

    sins include from

    1)not listening to your Leaders-written straight in the torah

    2)going to a place of avoda zara to others (as a person may not go to the synagogue where yoshke was killed although it was a synagogue & not a church etc…)

    3)many other sins involved

    what would you answer to Hashem regarding these other sins if YOU ascended har habayis C”V

    #1112272

    mobico
    Participant

    You are right, chareidimolim. I was just being cute.

    #1112273

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, look at Igros Moshe, OC 2:113. R’ Moshe answers a questions regarding the Har HaBayis.

    The question was raised about why the Shulchan Aruch and the Tur both don’t mention an issur of spitting on the Har HaBayis in modern times. The person who asked gave a possible explanation that the question is irrelevant since nobody is allowed on the Har HaBayis in modern times. R’ Moshe rejects that answer, and says that there are parts where people are allowed to walk. He then gives a different answer regarding the spitting question.

    From this, it appears that R’ Moshe held it was allowed to go on the Har HaBayis – indeed, R’ Tendler has said many times that R’ Moshe was well aware of R’ Tendler’s going onto the Har HaBayis, and never attempted to dissuade him from doing so.

    There is a video of R’ Tendler on the Har HaBayis, where he comments on a mitzvah he tries to do there – there is a tree growing there, and he breaks off a branch and takes it with him. He says no trees are supposed to be grown on the Har HaBayis, and he therefore tries to minimize the growth there. He said he takes the branch home, and burns it.

    #1112274

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    How is the “best [heart/lung/ENT/etc.] doctor” determined? How do we really know? Answer: we — the laymen — don’t. We are not in a position to know. All the heart experts in a given location, between themselves, know who is the biggest expert among them. What the first-year med students say is immaterial; what the taxi drivers in town say is immaterial; what the hardware store owners say is also immaterial. What the other experts say is what counts. The experts know who among them is the biggest expert.

    It is similar when trying to quantify gadlus in Torah. The opinion of those not in a position to know simply does not count. The top Torah scholars in every generation all know who among them is the greatest Talmid Chacham, who is understood to be the greatest sage (“gadol”) of the generation. Occasionally there might be more than one gadol, but the method of determining that scholar’s gadlus is the same.

    For the record: a psak halacha forbidding ascending the Har HaBayis was issued several times over the past hundred years, signed by all the greatest tzadikkim, rabbonim, poskim of the time. The first one that I know about was issued in the 1920s, and included the signature of the senior Rav Kook. After the Six Day War, the gedolim of the time also publicized their opinion forbidding going onto the Har Habayis. More recently, Rav Elyashiv zt”l constantly publicized his opinion forbidding ascending the Har Habayis.

    #1112275

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There are no churches on the Har Habyis only 2 Mosques (Al Aqsa and Dome of the Rock)

    The Church of the Holy Seplucre is about halfway between the Jaffa gate and the Kotel Plaza along the Arab Bazzar street (Or whatever you call that Arab Bazzar from the Jaffa Gate to the Kotel).

    The supposed place of where a cross was carried the Via Delorossa most go on after leaving the Tunnel Tours of the Kotel, the other side is the Via Delorossa , It is not on the Har Habayis

    #1112276

    american_yerushalmi:

    So, you would advise an ill person to follow the instructions found in a medical book written 50 years ago?

    Or investment advice from 1967?

    The situation has changed. The Rabbanim today know that it is permitted to ascend. The matter is all political. Why else would Gafni get involved in Uri Ariel going up? Does he ever lambast Netanyahu for not being religious?

    Plenty of religious (even Chareidi) people ascend these days, with permission of responsible, knowledgeable LIVE Rabbanim.

    #1112277

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    chareidimolim: this is the oldest trick in the book: trying to outflank and disobey the Gedolei Torah by deciding that “it’s not a halacha question — it’s all politics. Started back with Korach…. Gafni is not a gadol, he’s a politician, so whatever he says or does is not under discussion. You are following the Written and Oral Torah that is even older than 50 years. You are “taking advice” from Rashi, and other meforshim that were written hundreds of years ago, some even more. Rav Elyashiv was among us until just 3 years ago, and his sons and his loyal talmidim many of whom are themselves great Talmidei Chachamim still recall his oral piskei halacha along with what he wrote. There is not the slightest doubt as to what Rav Elyashiv held on this matter. Oh, and while you’re at it, you ought to be disregarding Rav Kook zt”l’s heter mechira on Shmitta, since he wrote that something like 90-100 years ago.

    #1112278

    Sam2
    Participant

    Did someone really claim that it’s Assur to go on Har HaBayis because it’s Makom Avodah Zarah? Last I checked, Eloheihem Al HeHarim Velo HeHarim Eloheihem.

    #1112279

    american_yerushalmi:

    There is not the slightest doubt as to what Rav Elyashiv held on this matter.

    Is that so?

    So, have you any clue why he held that ascension is assur – except what you have read here, in TYW, that it was because of political reasons (incitement)?

    Where has he written a responsa on the matter? an we examine his sources and discuss them, as is the traditional Torah way of deciding the halachah?

    So, this is how we decide halachah? No discussion of the issues, no Gemaras, no Rishonim, no Acharonim, no Responsa, no live Poskim. Just reports from a posek’s “sons and loyal talmidim,” and from tirades of Moshe Gafni in the Knesset, and from newspaper articles!

    And you have the nerve to call this halachah.

    #1112280

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    chareidimolim: that’s an excellent point. Where are the written teshuvos on this issue? Rabbonim have said many, many times that if something wasn’t written down by them as a teshuva, it shouldn’t be taken as a psak by the general public. It may have been a psak for a specific person in a certain circumstance, or it may have been taken out of context. Did R’ Elyashiv zt”l or R’ Chaim Kanievsky shlita ever write a teshuva on the issue?

    #1112281

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yes, there certainly are written teshuvos by them and earlier poskim.

    Even when Sir Montefiore ascended to the Har Habayis in the late 1800s, the gedolim of Yerushalayim publicly denounced him the following Shabbos in Shul. He tearfully and publicly apologized to the rabbonom saying he hadn’t realized it was assur and promising never to do so again, and the rabbonim said he was forgiven. And he was one of the most powerful figures and wealthy Jewish benefactors of Eretz Yisroel of the time. This is hardly anything new or “political”, as you attempt to malign the gedolei yisroel and poskim of our dor.

    #1112282

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Ok, who wrote the teshuvos? Where can they be found?

    #1112283

    Joseph
    Participant

    Offhand I think there’s a teshuva in kovetz teshuvos.

    #1112284

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, do you have anything to say about the Igros Moshe I posted above, which seems to say it’s ok to go onto certain areas of the Har HaBayis?

    #1112285

    charliehall
    Participant

    “There are no churches on the Har Habyis only 2 Mosques (Al Aqsa and Dome of the Rock)”

    The Dome of the Rock isn’t a mosque.

    #1112286

    charliehall
    Participant

    ‘trying to outflank and disobey the Gedolei Torah by deciding that “it’s not a halacha question” ‘

    Of course it is a halacha question — one on which different Gedolei Torah disagree.

    #1112287

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, where in the Kovetz Teshuvos?

    #1112288

    Sam2
    Participant

    DaMoshe: I’m pretty sure there’s one in Chelek 2 or 3 of Tshuvos V’hanhagos by R’ Shternbuch.

    #1112289

    Chacham
    Participant

    see minchas yitzchok vol. 5 siman 1, tzitz eliezer 10,1, yabia omer 5 27

    #1112291

    mw13
    Participant

    The fact that we do not have any written teshuvos from R’ Elyashiv or R’ Chaim that forbid ascending Har HaBayis should come as no surprise; neither one of these Gedolim published shailos vi’teshuvos. But there has never been any doubt as to their positions on this issue.

    Are there any teshuvos that explicitly allow ascending HHB?

    What did the Chazon Ish, R’ Kook, R’ Shlomo Zalman, R’ Ovadya Yosef, etc. have to say on this matter?

    chareidimolim:

    would advise an ill person to follow the instructions found in a medical book written 50 years ago?

    I hope I do not need to point out the obvious differences between the way we regard yesterdays scientists opinions and the way we regard yesterdays halachic opinions. The scientific opinions of Aristotle and his like are are laughably obsolete (flat world, any one?) while the opinions of the Tannaim and Amoraim of thousands of years ago continue to form the basis of Halacha today. One would have to be an idiot to agree to Aristotle, and an idiot to argue with Rav Ashi.

    Do we agree on this?

    The situation has changed. The Rabbanim today know that it is permitted to ascend. The matter is all political.

    How, precisely, has the situation changed in the few years since we lost R’ Elyashiv?

    And why are you so convinced that only the actors on one side of this debate are politically motivated?

    #1112292

    zogt_besser
    Participant

    it is surprising that rav moshe apparently holds that it’s mutar to go on certain parts of har habayis, but that everyone (except dati leumi) follows the tzitz eliezer/minchas yitzchak/rav ovadia on this issue and assurs it. shouldn’t americans follow rav moshe?

    #1112293

    mw13
    Participant

    I haven’t seen this R’ Moshe inside. Does he actually delineate where one may go, or is he just saying that since in theory there are areas that one may walk on it is not reasonable to assume that this is why the Tor/Shulchan Aruch would omit the issur.

    It is possible to hold that there are parts of HH”B that one may walk on in theory, but if we aren’t sure precisely where they are it would remain assur in practice (safek issur di’Oraysa li’chumrah).

    zogt_besser

    Americans don’t allows automatically follow R’ Moshe, especially when he is a daas yochid. (For example, almost all Americans use shabbos clocks and listen to music.)

    #1112294

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    Why should the permissibility of going on Har Habbayyis be decided based on where you live?

    #1112295

    EpshureWhat
    Member

    Nu limasa you are all wrong.. its 100% percent assur to visit the Har Habayis. We are not zoche to visit the Har Habayis because its a makom kodesh and since Moshiach didn’t come yet, Hakodosh Baruchu says it’s not pas for the velt to visit… nuu what’s so complicated… do mitsvos and well be zoche to visit… we don’t need for everyone to hak each others chaniks over the Har Habiyis… simple you do mitzvos youll visit the Har Habiyis.. You don’t you wont be zoche.. simple no??

    #1112296

    EpshureWhat
    Member

    It has nothing to do with R’ Moshe, If our American, or what the Chazon Ish said. Not to say Chas Vishalom Chas Vi chalila that I’m holding what the rabbinim tell us but it’s because of the shreklicha matzivh that the olum is in… it’s time for us to do tishuva and we can be zoche to see the Beis Hamikdak Bim ha ru Bi yu manu… No? Am I not right?

    #1112297

    Avi K
    Participant

    The root sin is sinat chinam. When that ends the Bet HaMikdash will be rebuilt, we will have a para aduma and everyone will go. Until then, each person has on whom to rely either way. As for being a place of avoda zara, when the Greeks and Romans defiled in was it assur to go to the Bet HaMikdash.

    #1112298

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Ask your LOR. Who will tell you not to go. You’re welcome.

    #1112299

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Aside from the issue of tumah, it’s pashut that going to the Har Habayis provokes terror. Yes, they already hate us – if you were alone in an alley with someone stronger than you who hated you, would you spit in his face?

    Those who go up to Har Habayis have blood on their hands.

    The Beis Din of the Eida Decries Jewish Violence in Response to Terror

    #1112300

    EpshureWhat
    Member

    Well that’s a bit extreme.. time to get your head out from under the rocks DaasYochid… who doesn’t happen to have any Daas… but anyway.. 🙂

    #1112301

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Not wanting to see Jews murdered is extreme? What religion do you belong to?

    #1112303

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It is a little harsh to call anyone who went up there a murderer.

    #1112304

    bja613
    Participant

    There seems to be some debate in this blog whether the poskim are politically motivated. Yes or no- more importantly though is the motivation of those desiring to ascend the Har. Are they and the pro bloggers here interested in reaching the place where they can better connect to HKBH and have their prayers answered? Or maybe their ascent is for the most-part politically motivated.

    Realizing that the ascent should be done for religious purposes as it is a religious place – I believe one should look past the machlokes haposkim and say to himself that maybe HKBH most appreciates those who look past their desires and at the very least are slightly concerned about that which is known regarding the opinions of some big name poskim who assur.

    Does one really believe that one day HKBH will ask you to answer -“why did you not ascend my Har” Do you think that “I feared those who assured” will not suffice as an answer? I personally believe that the best place to have your prayers answered is at the kotel while contemplating “G-d, I would rather pray in a place even closer but I fear the small chance that it is wrong- so please accept me from here!”

    #1112306

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    FYI there is a place closer to the Aven Shisiya than the Kotel plaza. There is a shul, Sorry I forgot the name that is directly in front of the Evan Shisya. It was built there on purpose. Its somewhere in the Muslim Quarter

    #1112307

    mw13
    Participant
    #1112308

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, our very existence “provokes” terror. You have joined the ranks of our enemies by blaming us for anti-Semitism. As for your alley metaphor, baruch Hashem we are no longer in the ghetto. We just have to realize it. Rav Baruch Ashlag (son of the Sulam) says that bitachon also means that one must have faith in himself (as Hashem has, thus we say upon waking “rabba emunateicha”).

    MW13, please post the exact quote in Hebrew where Rav Nevantzahl says that non-Jews “own” the site. During the Kotel controversy in 5690 Rav Kook and Rav Sonnenfeld refused to sign a document stating that the Arabs owned the Wall as it is the property of Am Yisrael. The same should be true of Har HaBayit, especially being that David HaMelech purchased it. It could be that we may not go up because for technical reasons but that does not obviate our ownership.

    #1112309

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Avi, yes, as I said, they already hate us, but inciting them causes more bloodshed and innocent Jewish lives to be lost, no matter how you want to spin it.

    You have an ideological objection to abstaining from ascending to the Har Habayis because our enemies don’t want us to. Must more Jewish children die for your ideology?

    #1112310

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY You know that the Arabs consider JAFFA to be “occupied territory”, so jews living in Tel Aviv-Jaffa are also inciting them

    #1112311

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    To the same degree?

    #1112312

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Many of them, sure. They’re waiting for a chance to kill us all anyway. Going on to Har HaBayis may provoke minor immediate violence, but it’s not more than they plan on doing eventually anyway. No peaceful Arab becomes unpeaceful after someone goes onto Har HaBayis. Those who would attack Jews for going up are eventually going to attack Jews anyway.

    #1112313

    mobico
    Participant

    The Gemara at the end of Kesubos clearly states that we are forbidden from inciting the Goyim. This is despite the fact that Halachah Esav Sonei Es Yaakov. IT must be that there are different levels of incitement.

    And I do think it germane to note that there is a big sign at the entrance to Har HaBayis that states in no uncertain terms that it is forbidden Al Pi Halachah to ascend, signed the Chief Rabbinate of the State of Israel.

    #1112314

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: Yo must be singularly unaware of the flood of anti-semitic and anti-Israel proclamations by the leaders of iran , Isis and Hamas that want to eradicate- translate ,kill all the Jews- the land of Israel. It has nothing to do with the Har Habayis, which is only a pretext to hate us.

    #1112315

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    We incited the Nazi’s by Living in Berlin

    We incited the Arabs by living in Palestine, The arabs attacked us in 1967 and Har Habyais was in Jordanian hands

    #1112316

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sam: It is without doubt that certain actions give the antisemites more motivation and impetus to act violently, which they do in response to specific activities they deem provocative even if objectively it might not be. That isn’t an excuse for a Jew to engage in an action that will result in violence against the Jews. Even if the violence is unjustified based on that action. In golus we lay low. Yes, we lay low and pray and wait for Moshiach.

    #1112317

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, we have an obligation to conquer EY (Rambam Sefer HaMitzvot, mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). Pikuach nefesh does not push off an obligatory war. That is obvious. In any case, they do not need any actions of ours to be incited. What did the Jews of Chevron do in 5689? Nothing but sit and learn. For that matter, what did the Jews of Europe do (according to Rav Teichtal, it was they did not do – make aliya en masse)?

    Mobico, if you are referring to the Three Oaths, that is a halachic non-starter.

    1. They are not paskened in any of the codes.

    2. Rav Chaim Vital says in his introduction to Sefer Etz Chaim that they were only for 1,000 years.

    3. Rav Meir Simcha says that the San Remo Conference revoked them.

    4. Rav Soloveichik says in “Kol Dodi Dofek” that Hashem has called as evidenced in the miracles of Israel’s creation and this is a revocation.

    5. They broke their oath not to persecute us “too much” on several occasions- the Crusades, the Chmielnitzki massacres, the pogroms and, of course, the Holocaust – so the whole deal is off (see Sota 10a Rashi d”h huchal and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 236:6).

    #1112318

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its not even always clear what Gedolim are saying. There was an article on Sunday saying Rav Kanivesky forbid going to the old city, now there is this update

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/349089/clarifications-regarding-instructions-from-gedolei-yisrael-and-visiting-the-kosel.html

    #1112319

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, the bottom line is that it leads to more Jewish blood being spilled.

    Go tell the families of terror victims that their relative’s murder is the result of “minor immediate violence”. Go tell them that the murderers would have eventually attacked anyways.

    ROB, ZD, AviK, perhaps you missed where I repeatedly pointed out that yes, they hate us, but they most certainly carry out more violence when provoked.

    Mobico, Joseph, correct.

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