Har HaBayis Revisited

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  • #1112370
    Avi K
    Participant

    MW13,

    1. Ramban says it (Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). According to the Or HaChaim HaKadosh (Devarim 30,20) and the Avnei Nezer (Yoreh Deah 454,6)

    Rambam actually agrees that it is a mitzva in our time but did not list it as one of the Taryag because of his technical rules for counting mitzvot. Rav Avraham Shapira and Rav Shaul Yisraeli thus ruled that it is prohibited to give land even for peace.

    2. I do not think that they need any special provocation. Our existence is provocation. However, if they think that nothing will be gained they will abstain from action. This was proven in the years after the Six Day War when a Jew could walk alone and unarmed in any Arab city without being harmed. They knew what they would do if c”v they were on top and presumed that we would do the same (this inability to realize that not everyone thinks like oneself is, in fact, very common).

    3. You copied it over so you bear responsibility unless you are totally deficient in Hebrew.

    #1112371

    i was commenting on his use of a quote from khaled to support his argument, not about the content. your response has no shiachus. why do you do that?

    #1112372
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    hey, if we cant trust khaled for his honest and unbiased opinion, who can we trust?

    Rav Elyashiv?

    Rav Elyshiv was known to be very Machmir on everything, Amazingly they even mentioned this in the Art Scroll Biography

    #1112373
    mw13
    Participant

    Sam2:

    First of all, how many people do you know who go up? I know a lot.

    90% of them?

    People here have openly said the reason that they support ascending HHB is to preserve/extend Jewish sovereignty over the site. I’ve seen this sentiment echoed in much of the circles where this position is popular. And I hear it much, much more often than I hear anything about spiritual inspiration.

    Secondly, are you reading what you’re quoting?

    Just because I quoted it doesn’t mean that I agree with it. Although this may be shocking to some, just because I’n not Zionist doesn’t mean I’m an Arab sympathizer.

    The reason I brought down those quotes was to show that much of the anger that the Arabs currently (unjustly) feel is centered around a perceived Jewish takeover of HHB. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that if we banned Jews from ascending HHB (for the umpteenth time, in accordance with the psak of the overwhelming majority of the Gedolei HaPoskim) much (although obviously not all) of the anger would abate, and the attacks that are a direct result of this anger would decrease (although not disappear).

    #1112374
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: I have no problem your quoting of Rav Elyashiv-and others-as far as any halachic argument, but I cannot see ho Rav Elyashiv zz’l has more of an insight into Arab minds than anyone else. Th fact is that our enemies will use any pretext to kill us. They did not need Har Habayis in 1929 -well before the medinah- or in 1948 or anytime since. Our existence in enough of a reason.

    #1112375
    Chortkov
    Participant

    hey, if we cant trust khaled for his honest and unbiased opinion, who can we trust?

    Snort.

    #1112377
    mw13
    Participant

    Avi K:

    Ramban says it (Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). According to the Or HaChaim HaKadosh (Devarim 30,20) and the Avnei Nezer (Yoreh Deah 454,6) Rambam actually agrees that it is a mitzva in our time but did not list it as one of the Taryag because of his technical rules for counting mitzvot. Rav Avraham Shapira and Rav Shaul Yisraeli thus ruled that it is prohibited to give land even for peace.

    Again, name me the Poskim of today who hold that there is chiyuv to conquer all of EY.

    BTW, if you really do think that there is a chiyuv to conquer all of EY today, and that this is a milchemes mitzva which one must put his life at risk for, what on earth are you doing here? Put your money where your mouth is, get a gun, and go conquer Ramallah or die trying!

    Syag Lchochma:

    See the second part of my last response to Sam2 for an explanation of what I was trying to accomplish with those quotes from the Jerusalem Post.

    #1112378
    feivel
    Participant

    I cannot see how Rav Elyashiv tz’l has more of an insight into Arab minds than anyone else.

    Of course you can’t see how.

    #1112379
    epshurewhat2
    Member

    Ok What Im a bit confused…. what is the whole olum talking about?

    You can’t go up to Har Habayis.. whats so hard?

    Ask your Rabbi he’ll show you..

    #1112380

    Feivel,

    Indeed, I was addressing those who do see and understand.

    #1112381
    Joseph
    Participant

    Netanyahu today banned politicians from ascending to the HH”B. Is Netanyahu a raging leftist who sees a violent outcome when Jewish politicians ascend?

    #1112382
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    mw13

    “Source?”

    The mitchell report which was the Israeli’s report looking into the cause of the intifada.

    they reported (from wikipedia) “The immediate catalyst for the violence was the breakdown of the Camp David negotiations on July 25, 2000, and the “widespread appreciation in the international community of Palestinian responsibility for the impasse”. In this view, Palestinian violence was planned by the PA leadership, and was aimed at “provoking and incurring Palestinian casualties as a means of regaining the diplomatic initiative”.”

    “Without them, it probably would not have been as severe, and it may never even have started.”

    This is a myth.

    You missed my point with “Is that true? There was no har habayis excuse in the 50’s yet fedayeen attacks became a routine occurance.” Terrosim was more prevelant then than today. Ditto for the hijackings in the 70’s, first intifada, second. NOne of these (with the possible exception of the second intifada) can in any way be blamed on har habayis. There isnt even an uptick in violence that can be linked to har ahbayis.

    My example with the thug was to illustratete that when there is no patern, you cant say smacking the thug exacerbates violence.

    #1112384

    Right, so it’s perfectly safe to hit a thug.

    #1112385
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    It isnt safe to walk past the thug either

    If Reuvein walks by the thug and gets killed, Shimon walks by and gets killed. LEvi doesnt get killed, Yehuda does, Yissachor smacks him and gets killed.

    I think its hard to argue Yissachar got killed becasue he smacked the thug

    #1112386

    That’s not what we’re arguing, though. We’re arguing whether in a case where you must walk by the thug, you should also smack him.

    And you are inexplicably arguing, sure, why not, you’re walking by anyway and he’s anyhow a thug.

    And I am inexplicably getting involved in another interminable debate with you where you repeatedly ignore my rebuttals.

    #1112387
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    apolagies DY.

    I was arguing a different albeit related point. Namely if smacking a thug who routinely kills poeple wether they smack him or not can be considered to have incited his killing when smacked.

    i’m not saying it is a good idea to smack him.

    And i have never ever ignored your rebuttals. not once (unless accidentally missed a response in fact Ive even conceded when you made a valid point, iyh by you) You on the other hand claim to have address my points by repeating yourself after I rebut them. when I ask for clarification you ignore or repeat yourself. for example I raised cases of arab violence (greater than the current stream) that can in no way be attributed to har habyais. My point being that it is disengenioues to blame arab violence in har habayis when it existed to an equal and at times greater extent with no har habayis. you claime youve addressed this point. I cant find where. Granted, you repeat over and over that violence when unprovoked does not show that the har habayis provokes violence. You fail to explain why this is so.

    #1112388
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY (and anybody else)

    Allow me to try another approach. (see I never ignore your “rebuttals” in fact I try new arguments to get through to you)

    Did Hershel Grynszpan cause kristalnacht?

    Note: I am not asking if it was a good idea for him to “smack the thug” but only do you beleive he was responsible for kristalnacht?

    #1112390
    Avi K
    Participant

    MW,

    1. Rav Avraham Shapira and Rav Shaul Yisraeli were alive until a few years ago. Is that “now” enough for you? How about Rav Dov Lior? He is still alive (until 120). Ditto Rav Shmuel Eliahu.

    2. FYI, I live in a settlement in the Binyamin area.

    3. The above mitzva is incumbent on Klal Yisrael not on any individual. As I am nichba bakeilim I am waiting for the IDF or the Shabach to demand my services.

    #1112391

    No, you merely use the same flawed arguments in different words.

    #1112392
    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, are you hoping that Israel declares war on Lebanon and Jordan in order to occupy the parts of Eretz Yisroel in those countries?

    #1112393
    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, I am certain that we will also get part of southern Turkey, Iraq and the Sinai. Perhaps one or more of the Ten Tribes will form a state or states and then be revealed.The origin of the Kurds is obscure (you can google “Jewish origin of Kurds”) and the Druze claim descent from Yitro. Both groups are friendly towards Israel.

    #1112394
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    you fail to explain WHy it is flawed. Granted you said repeatedly that just because there is also violence when har habayis is not involved does not mean that har habayis isnt the cause. Nowehere (that I found) do you explain WHY this is so.

    Also see question regarding Hershcehl Grynspan and kristalnacht

    #1112395

    No, I didn’t say that. I said it doesn’t mean that going to Har Habayis isn’t *a* cause (or perhaps I should use the term contributing factor), not that going is *the* cause.

    I will say the same about Herschel Grynspan as I said about those who ascend Har Habayis – that he has blood on his hands. He does have some culpability.

    #1112396
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    at what point does “a cause” become meaningless, in other words when the other “causes” are any Jewish presence in any of Eretz Yisroel, and for many of them the “cause” is any Jewish presence on the planet? Especilay considering when it cant even be argued that it is a maor casue, being that there was violence without har habayis (oftne even more violence), and there were people going to har habayis without violence?

    If they said the cause was davening at the kosel would that become a cause? If they said it was your using the internet would that become a cause?

    #1112397
    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, what about the Jewish partisans and the Warsaw ghetto rebels as well as rebels in other ghettos and concentration camps? Was Walter Rathenau was responsible for his own assassination by negotiating the Treaty of Rapallo? Are Jews who participate in civic life responsible for anti-Semitic charges of “taking over” and Jews who do not for accusations of “clannishness”?

    You remind me of the story of two Jews who were going to be shot for “economic crimes” in the former Soviet Union. One said to the officer in charge “I have the right to a last cigarette”. His fellow said “Don’t make trouble”.

    #1112398
    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, you neglected to answer my question. Was your omission intentional or inadvertent?

    #1112399
    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, I thought that that was an answer. I am not only hoping that we gain those areas but confident that we will. I would prefer that it come through peaceful means.

    #1112400

    Ubiquitin, Avi, ask the simple question: will this likely lead to more Jews dying.

    Your analogies are off the mark.

    #1112401
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: You offered the answer to your -faulty- premise: No one knows whether going up to the Har Habayis will increase on attacks on Jews. We do know, however, from bitter experience and the history that Jewish presence anywhere in israel and maybe in the world leads to attacks onJews. That we know for sure . Your premise only has the unsubstantiated quotes by some Arabs.

    #1112402
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    You and others are making an assumption that if one gives into the Arabs, they will leave you alone and not kill jews. We are arguing that is a false assumption and they will try to kill jews anyway , no matter what is done unless we defend ourselves

    #1112403

    ROB, even Netanyahu sees the connection, but if your ideology blinds you, I suppose nothing will convince you.

    ZD, no we are not, as has been repeated numerous times. You are again mischaracterizing our position.

    #1112404
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Our existence incites people to want to destroy us. It doesn’t matter what we do. There will always be an excuse and there will always be those who want our eradication. If you really want to decrease violence against Jews, you should make sure that Jews cease to exist. Otherwise, these arguments are foolish. You have fallen prey to antisemitic scapegoating techniques.

    #1112405
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “will this likely lead to more Jews dying.”

    No.

    Kristalnacht wouldve hppned if Hershel Grynspan was never born, and Arab terrorism existed when Jews never went on Har habayis.

    As for Netanyahu you have to ask him. My guess is at this time it is best not to even give them an excuse, not that it leads to more violence.

    Ask yourself this iyh when things quit down hopefully real soon. Will Netanyahu keep the ban in place? Why not, does he want to see more Jews killed?

    #1112406
    epshurewhat2
    Member

    GUYS WERE ALL MISSING THE POINT.

    This is exactly how we solve it.

    Case Study.

    While the Olum handels all the Gemaras and bring all the various commentaries and what not, not that’s its a bad thing just lets do a study.

    Take brave volunteers with different Age, Gender, Ethnic, Nationality, and send them on a field trip to the Har Habayis.. What is soooo complicated people?

    #1112407

    It is not a zero sum game.

    Regarding Grynspan, yes plans were already in place, but his act made it much easier to rile up the masses.

    Netanyahu will do whatever is in his best political interest. Right now that is to improve the security situation because it’s killing his poll numbers.

    #1112408
    Joseph
    Participant

    Jews died because of violence resulting of Jews ascending HH”B and Jews died from violence resulting from Grynspan’s act.

    And, certainly, you cannot argue that the specific Jews who were murdered directly in response to the timing of the ascension to HH”B or directly in response to the timing of Grynspan’s murdering of a German diplomat, that those same specific Jews would have been murdered anyways if not for those actions by Jews. (Even if the Jew haters would have done it at another time anyways, it would not have been at that time resulting in the murder of those specific Jews at that time.) And even if we assume you’re correct and it would’ve happened at a later time, the “excuse” the haters used may have resulted in a greater ferocity or a larger number of victims than otherwise.

    My guess is at this time it is best not to even give them an excuse

    ubiquitin: Why is it “best not to even give them an excuse”?

    #1112409
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Joseph: you arguments are faulty and it should not even need an explanation. What hershel grynshpan did had ultimately and absolutely no effect on the nazis. they were going to kill Jews and persecute them anyway. The nuremberg laws were in effect for years, the persecution was in high gear. Do you truly believe that if Grynshpan would not have existed, the Nazis would not have followed the same murderous path?? The Nazis =jemach shemom-were going to kill the jews rgardless what was happening. The murder was a pretext.

    Exactly the same it is with the Arabs-and Iranians- they will never agree to Israel existing. They will find pretext after pretext to kill jews.

    #1112410
    epshurewhat2
    Member

    GUYS WERE ALL MISSING THE POINT.

    This is exactly how we solve it.

    Case Study.

    While the Olum handels all the Gemaras and bring all the various commentaries and what not, not that’s its a bad thing just lets do a study.

    Take brave volunteers with different Age, Gender, Ethnic, Nationality, and send them on a field trip to the Har Habayis.. What is soooo complicated people?

    We will see what happens..

    #1112411
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    “Why is it “best not to even give them an excuse”?”

    This thing is being fanned on social media. They glorify violence, unfortunately stabbings lead to more stabbings, unfortunalty killing stabbers alos can be fanned to ile up the masses (let me guess in your twisted view, this means that those who kill terrorsits are also responsible for deaths of other Jews. Am I right bout that?)

    In order to break the cycle, it is best not to give them any pretense if possible.

    Do you think the ban will remain in place forever?

    If not. Why would it be lifted? Does Netanyahu want the Jews killed?

    “you cannot argue that the specific Jews who were murdered directly in response to the timing of the ascension to HH”B or directly in response to the timing of Grynspan’s murdering of a German diplomat, that those same specific Jews would have been murdered anyways if not for those actions by Jews”

    that is EXACTLY what I am arguing!

    Certainly you cant argue that when violence occurs without har habayis, and people ascend har habayis without violence. and then when violence occurs in the setting of har habayis If not for har habayis the violence would not have occured.

    #1112412
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Another question for Joseph and DY

    Was Darren Wilson responsible for the destruction of property in Ferguson?

    Keep in mind that that violence unlike Arab violence would NOT have occurred if not for his actions (even if justified)

    #1112413
    Avi K
    Participant
    #1112414
    Ash
    Participant

    ubiquitin, Sam2, rob, ZD, etc:

    1. This attitude begs the question, do you think the actions of those (so-called) Niturei Karta-niks who go to Iran, protest in support of PLO, Hamas etc have no effect? The Arabs/Muslims hate and wish just as much violence with them or without them. So they’re not causing any actual harm, right?

    2. Do you excuse the many Jews videod going onto HHB just to “establish sovereignty” (as witnessed by many of these groups just marching around with video-phones held in the air, rather than any goal to daven). Also, you cannot in fact daven there as the police will drag you out.

    3. This entire recent uprising has no excuse other than the one repeated on all major news outlets – that it’s about HHB. Of course they’re looking for an excuse but how can you say the actions of these provocateurs haven’t resulted in extra fatal and serious attacks against yidden in the past few weeks?

    #1112415

    Avi, also from Wikipedia:

    Regardless, the HH”B issue most definitely is being effectively used to help recruit terrorists.

    #1112416
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Ash

    1. I dont follow. No a sbad as they are I dont think their actions cause violence. It does give them an oppurtunity to (falsely) label themselves as not anti-semitic since they have very Jewish appearing supporters

    2. I dont excuse anything. All i know is that ascending Har habayis didnt start two weeks ago and nor did arab violence. and even if this uptick in arab violence can temporally be linked to media reports on har habayis this does not hold true historicaly.

    3. Because if not for har hayis it would be the kosel if not the kosel tel aviv and if not tel aviv New york. Jews did not ascend har habayis during the (much worse) fedayeen attacks in the 50’s nor the highjackings during the 60’s-70’s

    also feel free to answer my question posed to DY and Joseph

    Was Darren Wilson responsible for the destruction of property in Ferguson?

    add to that was Yosef Lifshutz responsible for the murder of Yankel Rosenbaum h”yd (even inadvertently)?

    #1112417
    mw13
    Participant

    ubiquitin:

    You missed my point with “Is that true? There was no har habayis excuse in the 50’s yet fedayeen attacks became a routine occurance.” Terrosim was more prevelant then than today. Ditto for the hijackings in the 70’s, first intifada, second. NOne of these (with the possible exception of the second intifada) can in any way be blamed on har habayis. There isnt even an uptick in violence that can be linked to har ahbayis.

    Again, nobody is arguing that conflict over HHB is the sole reason for Arab-Israeli tensions. Of course there are (and always have been) many different factors contributing to this mess. But none of that means that HHB isn’t one of those factors. And we have explained ad nauseam, there is every reason to believe that it is.

    Btw, I’m not sure why you don’t think the current spate of attacks isn’t “an uptick in violence that can be linked to har ahbayis”.

    I was arguing a different albeit related point. Namely if smacking a thug who routinely kills poeple wether they smack him or not can be considered to have incited his killing when smacked.

    i’m not saying it is a good idea to smack him.

    Then we do not disagree on too much.

    Did Hershel Grynszpan cause kristalnacht?

    “Cause” is too simplistic a term. Events have many contributing factors, and some have more influence than others. The Nazis and their collaborators are the ones responsible for kristalnacht. But Hershel Grynszpan was the spark that set it off, so yes, he was a part of the cause. A small part, to be sure, but still a part nonetheless.

    Moshol, li’mah ha’davar domeh – if a small spark causes a barrel of gas to explode, who caused the explosion, the gas or the spark?

    This is not (or at least, should not be) a black and white subject. There is a grey area between complete responsibility and no influence whatsoever.

    Avi K:

    Lishitascha, I still don’t get why you aren’t waging a one man war to reclaim every inch of EY.

    #1112418
    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, what he said and what he did were two different things. Considering the Nazi leaderships unhappiness with Vom Rath because of his extracurricular activities he might even have been assassinated by a Nazi who would escape and let them blame it on the Jews. This worked with the Reichstag fire. In any case, in real time a person has to make a decision. Inaction also has consequences. This is one of the lessons of the story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza.

    MW, I already answered you. The mitzva to conquer EY is on Am Yisrael not one an individual. Both Rav Shlomo Aviner and Rav Eliezer Melamed have made this clear. In fact, according to Rashi (Gittin 8b d”h kibush yachid) a personal conquest is not even considered a conquest.

    #1112420

    There seems to be some confusion here about “counquering” the Temple Mount and Eretz Yisrael in general.

    The point in our gaining more strategic areas from the Arabs, rather than handing them crucial parts of the land on a silver platter so that they should not rabble-rouse, does not have to be in order to establish a Jewish kingdom there, although I would welcome such a thing. Perhaps, it is not proper to do that while still in Galus. This matter is debatable.

    The point is that 5 million Jews live in Eretz Yisrael now, and they must be protected. And, yes, giving the Arabs Har HaBayis was aterrible tactical mistake, because it gave them a toe-hold in Jerusalem, which they now see as their capital. Had we retained sovereignty over the Mount, it is eminently likely that the Arabs would not be willing to “defend” Jerusalem itself. In Barak’s days we faced the possibility of Arafat ruling the Old City. You do the math. It is no secret that every concession to the Arabs has brought death and destruction to us.

    It is very convenient to cowl in fear of Galus and do nothing. But by doing so we are simply putting ourselves in mortal danger.

    #1112421
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    mw13

    “And we have explained ad nauseam, there is every reason to believe that it is.”

    And AS I have explained to there isnt.

    “Btw, I’m not sure why you don’t think the current spate of attacks isn’t “an uptick in violence that can be linked to har ahbayis”.”

    I meant historically. THIS uptick in violence can be temporally linked to har habayis, historically given the years and years of arab terror there is no such trend.

    “Moshol, li’mah ha’davar domeh – if a small spark causes a barrel of gas to explode, who caused the explosion, the gas or the spark?”

    you are missing something from your moshol. If there are sparks that do not cause the barrel to explode, and the barrel often explodes without sparks. then one day the barrel explodes with a spark. It probably isnt the spark that caused it.

    Furthermore, if somebody had the barrel wired to explode and just waited for a spark he can blame it on, when that spark in fact arrives and the barrel exlpodes it DEFINITELY cant be blamed on the spark

    #1112422
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Ash : I am not sure how the matter of those pro-Iran “Jews” has anything to do with this. They have no effect on the actual policies but they do give an excuse to all anti-semites to declare that “Jews support the Palestinians”

    I will grant you-and others- that the Har habayis question has raised violence NOW. But there will always be some reason for Arabs to commit murder. The fact that they are using Har habayis NOW should not refrain us from asserting our right to go up into Har Habayis -halocho permitting, but that is not the question.

    In other words, as I wrote earlier, one must continue to assert sovereignity over every inch of Eretz Yisroel, lest we lose all of it. Losing sovereignity is important. Look at France and its no-go areas or England and its own no-go areas. Once you give up your rights, it is very difficult to gain them back.

    #1112423

    I will grant you-and others- that the Har habayis question has raised violence NOW. But there will always be some reason for Arabs to commit murder

    “Raised violence” means innocent Jews dying. So you’re willing to have that happen today because it didn’t happen last month??!!

    For your perceived political gain you’ll sacrifice Jewish lives??!!

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