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YWN Coffee Room » Bais Medrash

Hello99, DY, et al: Maskim?

(28 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by yitayningwut
  • Latest reply from sam4321

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  1. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    What are your thoughts?

    אור יצחק חלק ב' או"ח סימן רי"ז

    שו"ע או"ח סימן תק"ב סעיף א

    כתב המחבר וז"ל: אין מוציאין אש לא מן העצים ולא מן האבנים ולא מן העפר וכו', עכ"ל

    שאלה: נכבה החשמל ביום טוב מאיזה סיבה שהיא, האם מותר להדליקו

    תשובה: מותר להדליקו ביום טוב, דהאיסור של הדלקת חשמל הוא משום מוליד אש, וכתוב ברמב"ם [פ"ד מהל' יו"ט סוף הל' א'] וז"ל: לא הותר ביום טוב אלא להבעיר מאש מצויה, אבל להמציא אש אסור, שהרי אפשר להמציא אותה מבערב, ע"כ. הרי לך שכל הטעם שאסור להוליד אש הוא משום שהיה אפשר לעשותו כבר מערב יום טוב, וא"כ כאן שהקלקול נעשה ביום טוב, הרי זה כסכין שנפגמה ביום טוב שמותר [עי' שו"ע סי' תק"ט סעי' ב'*]. ועיין ברש"י בביצה [דף כח ע"ב] גבי שפוד שנרצף שאסור לתקנו, ופירש"י בד"ה אסור לתקנו ביו"ט – שהרי יכול להשתמש בו כמו שהוא וטרחא שלא לצורך הוא, ע"כ. [וז"ל הברכי יוסף בסימן תק"ב אות א': אין מוציאין האש וכו', וטעמא הואיל ואפשר להוציא אש מערב יום טוב, ויש מי שדקדק מזה שאם לא היה יכול להמציא אש מערב יום טוב, כגון שהיה במאסר או במדבר ולא נזדמן לא במה שיוציא עד יום טוב, מותר להוציאו ביום טוב, וכן נראה דעת הרב בעל תוספות, ספר בית מועד, הביאו הרב מר זקנינו מהר"א אזולאי זלה"ה בהגהותיו כ"י, עכ"ל]. (ונדפס מחדש עתה בלבוש החדש סי' תק"ב). וא"כ ה"ה בנידון דידן שנכבה האור מאיזה סיבה, שג"כ לא היה יכול להכין הדבר מערב יום טוב, ולכך יש להתיר

    *ואף ששם כתוב שהוא הלכה ואין מורין כן, יש לחלק בין הנושאים, אבל אין כאן המקום להאריך בזה

    Here is the Birkei Yosef, by the way:
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=7626&st=&pgnum=215

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. hello99
    Member

    No. See Kaf HaChaim 502:2 and Minchas Yitzchok 4:99.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    You're assuming there's no issue of Boneh either.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    hello99 - I see that the Minchas Yitzchak disagrees, but it seems to me that the Kaf HaChaim would not be so against it. He's willing to be matir striking a match.

    Sam2 - yes.

    For reference -

    Kaf HaChaim:
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14424&st=&pgnum=46&hilite=

    Minchas Yitzchak:
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1598&pgnum=507

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    Seems to me the parallel case should be if your fire goes out on yontiff.
    Does anybody say that it is then muttar to light it?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    Popa - That Kaf HaChaim is matir striking a match in such a case (when you can't get fire from somewhere else). But even without that, the svara is to be more machmir by fire than by an electric light, since many times you can get fire for your candle from your neighbor's oven, whereas by an electric light it is never possible to do that.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. hello99
    Member

    Yitay: the Birkei Yosef’s leniency is based on his understanding of the Rambam as forbidding igniting a fire on YT solely due to Hachanas Ochel Nefesh she’Efshar la’asos Erev YT. However, many Rishonim, including Rashi, the Raavad and the Ran cite the Gemara as contradicting this view, as the Gemara explains the Issur as Molid. See the Taz 502§1 and Aruch HaShulchan 502§2 who rejects the Birkei Yosef’s understanding of the Rambam as contradicting the Gemara.
    Shulchan Shlomo Yom Tov 502§1 writes in the name of Reb Shlomo Zalman that Electric lights are more severe than fire, not less. He also quotes the Meiri’s understanding of the Rambam that Havara is similar to Melachos listed before Lisha, which are not permitted for Ochel Nefesh even when they were not able to be done before YT. Accordingly, he would not permit lighting electric lights even when it was impossible prior to YT even according to the Rambam.
    My intent in referring to the Kaf HaChaim was to indicate that he quotes a dissenting opinion to that of the Chida, and appears to consider the stringent view the primary one. While you are correct that he permits matches, this is due to a Tziruf of the opinions that matches are not Molid because the fire is trapped in the head of the match and merely released by breaking it. I don’t think anyone today would accept this understanding of the Metzius of a match and permit striking one on Yom Tov and this Tziruf is irrelevant, rendering his Heter void.
    So, while I understand how a superficial reading of the Shulchan Aruch could lead one to this conclusion, and the Chida is a reliable Posek, the consensus of the majority of the Poskim would not allow turning on electric lights even when they could not be kindled prior to YT. Furthermore, permitting turning on lights on YT is clearly a big step down the slippery slope that could lead uninformed individuals to much, much worse; והמבין יבין.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. hello99
    Member

    Sam: "You're assuming there's no issue of Boneh either"
    See Shulchan Aruch 509 that only Binyan Gamur is forbidden for Hachanas Ochel Nefesh she’I’Efshar la’Asos Erev YT. If you read the Chazon Ish carefully you will note that he only considers closing a circuit Binyan b’Keilim or Makeh b’Patish.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    hello99 -

    I see where you are coming from, and you are entitled to disagree. However, I am sure you can see how one might argue with all of the points you made, and a posek who is a bar hachi has every right. I will just say that I do not believe he is relying on the Chida. That is not his style at all. He is relying on his svara in how he came out of the sugya, and is bringing the Chida in brackets as an aside.

    As for permitting turning on lights on Yom Tov, as you see, he stated no such blanket heter, which you unfairly imply. And even so, I did take care care to submit this post in an inconspicuous way.

    By the way, I understand that the Kaf HaChaim was making a tziruf. I was only speculating that he might have made a similar kind of tziruf in regard to this case, והמבין יבין. But as I said, that is not where this teshuva is coming from anyway.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. longarekel
    Member

    yitayningwut: can I surf the net on Yom Tov? Seriously, I don't understand the machmirim. Molid is only assur (drabanan) because it is similar to a melacha. But on Yom Tov an outright melacha of havara is permitted by a davar hashave lchol nefesh, so kol shekain molid of havarah. Unless you say every molid is assur because of boneh since it's like you're building something new. Please ask the Rav exactly why molid is assur on shabbos.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    R' Chaim Ozer assers, it seems because of molid.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14671&st=&pgnum=505

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. sam4321
    Member

    Yitay: Wouldn't Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach agree(Minchas Shlomo siman 9,and 11 I think) except in the case of incandescent lights?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    sam4321 -

    I definitely hear you, but the question here is even theoretically about kindling a fire.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. sam4321
    Member

    Yitay: I understand,all I am saying is it seems that according to Rav Shlomo Zalman electricity is not really a problem by lights and appliances if it doesnt warm up, he disproves makeh b'patish boneh and others as well. At the end of the day he holds we don't do it because one will make a mistake with somthing that is assur.wouldn't that be a concern here?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    sam4321 - No, because if you look carefully at the teshuva, the heter here is not primarily anything to do with a kula of electricity over real fire. What was stated here b'etzem applies to kindling a real fire as well.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. sam4321
    Member

    Yitay: I hear I was more focused on the electric aspect what is his shitta regarding shabbas and electricity,does he hold that there are any issurim? An electric switch is not really making a fire according to everyone,but it seems he holds it is muttar on the basis it is a mavier issue.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    sam4321 - It is a very good question. He is not matir it, that's all I can say.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. hello99
    Member

    yitay: "I am sure you can see how one might argue with all of the points you made, and a posek who is a bar hachi has every right"
    I never denied that. You asked if I am Maskim, and I explained why not. The bottom line is that his Heter is based on one of the ways of understanding a single Rishon. I don't think he is relying on the Chida either. My intention was that one who follows this Kula has a Chida to rely upon.

    "he stated no such blanket heter, which you unfairly imply"
    I implied no such thing. I feel that permitting this under the common circumstances he mentioned is a huge Poretz Geder and would inevitably lead to people who see an apparently frum Yid do so to be Moreh Heter to be lenient even when it doesn't apply.
    ha
    re the Kaf HaChaim, in a case that has another Tziruf there would be grounds to permit M'Ikar HaDin. However, as I mentioned, one must take into account how others will misconstrue this.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    hello99 - Thank you for clarifying your position.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Yitayningwut,

    Are you maskim that R' Chaim Ozer assers?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    DaasYochid - Isn't he just saying that it's molid eish (he holds it is mammash mav'ir and mechabeh)? That doesn't preclude the heter mentioned here.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    I think he means plain molid, in which case, the heter is precluded.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    DY - So I wanted to be mevarer if you were right and I tracked down the periodical that R' Chaim Ozer is citing. Turns out there are lots of interesting things there. They do mention what you are referring to, though I still do not see any major indication that R' Chaim Ozer's reason for assering is because of anything other than molid eish.

    I would gather that this (ג) is the one he is referring to, and it's the only one from New York:
    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22936&st=&pgnum=7
    The one just before that seems like he would agree with Rabbi Abadi.

    Also there is this short article from the Aruch Hashulchan; I think it's pretty famous:
    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22936&st=&pgnum=5

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. sam4321
    Member

    Yitay: He holds using electricity is assur or it is more like what Rav Shlomo Zalaman held that is like a minhag not to ?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Yit,

    See what the Debriciner Rav has to say about those who mistakenly were mattir (chelek 6, Kuntreis haelectri, siman 23 and others).

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=889&st=&pgnum=455

    I didn't know how to find that yarchon; thanks, I'll take a look.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  26. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    The key phrase, which the B'er Moshe points out was a mistake in the metzius, is:

    דגם כאן העלעקטרי כבר נעשה מעיו״ט ורק ביו״ט מקרבן זא״ז ועי״ז האור יוצא להאיר לא הוה נולד

    This is one reason why I thought R' Chaim Ozer meant molid; I didn't think the one with whom he is disagreeing thought that the fire itself existed (the main reason for my understanding is that he also says molid, not molid aish.)

    I need more time to read the Bais Vaad for a more solidly grounded opinion.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  27. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    sam4321 - He apparently believed it is real mav'ir and mechabeh. But I have know idea what he thought the metzius is, and if he would say the same for all appliances.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  28. sam4321
    Member

    Yitay: interesting,thank you.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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