Hello99, DY, et al: Maskim?

Home Coffeeroom Bais Medrash Hello99, DY, et al: Maskim?

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  • #602488

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    What are your thoughts?

    ??? ???? ??? ?’ ??”? ???? ??”?

    ??”? ??”? ???? ??”? ???? ?

    ??? ????? ??”?: ??? ??????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???’, ??”?

    ????: ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????, ??? ???? ???????

    ?????: ???? ??????? ???? ???, ??????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??, ????? ????”? [?”? ???’ ??”? ??? ??’ ?’] ??”?: ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????, ??? ?????? ?? ????, ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????, ?”?. ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???, ??”? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???, ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? [??’ ??”? ??’ ??”? ???’ ?’*]. ????? ???”? ????? [?? ?? ?”?] [??”? ????? ???? ????? ??”? ??? ?’: ??? ??????? ??? ???’, ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???, ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???, ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???, ???? ??????? ???? ???, ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????, ??? ??? ????, ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???”? ?????? ???”? ???????? ?”?, ??”?]. (????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??’ ??”?). ??”? ?”? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????, ??”? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???, ???? ?? ?????

    *??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??, ?? ???? ??? ???????, ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???

    Here is the Birkei Yosef, by the way:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=7626&st=&pgnum=215

    #860654

    hello99
    Member

    No. See Kaf HaChaim 502:2 and Minchas Yitzchok 4:99.

    #860655

    Sam2
    Participant

    You’re assuming there’s no issue of Boneh either.

    #860656

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    hello99 – I see that the Minchas Yitzchak disagrees, but it seems to me that the Kaf HaChaim would not be so against it. He’s willing to be matir striking a match.

    Sam2 – yes.

    For reference –

    Kaf HaChaim:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14424&st=&pgnum=46&hilite=

    Minchas Yitzchak:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1598&pgnum=507

    #860657

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Seems to me the parallel case should be if your fire goes out on yontiff.

    Does anybody say that it is then muttar to light it?

    #860658

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Popa – That Kaf HaChaim is matir striking a match in such a case (when you can’t get fire from somewhere else). But even without that, the svara is to be more machmir by fire than by an electric light, since many times you can get fire for your candle from your neighbor’s oven, whereas by an electric light it is never possible to do that.

    #860659

    hello99
    Member

    So, while I understand how a superficial reading of the Shulchan Aruch could lead one to this conclusion, and the Chida is a reliable Posek, the consensus of the majority of the Poskim would not allow turning on electric lights even when they could not be kindled prior to YT. Furthermore, permitting turning on lights on YT is clearly a big step down the slippery slope that could lead uninformed individuals to much, much worse; ?????? ????.

    #860660

    hello99
    Member

    Sam: “You’re assuming there’s no issue of Boneh either”

    #860661

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    hello99 –

    I see where you are coming from, and you are entitled to disagree. However, I am sure you can see how one might argue with all of the points you made, and a posek who is a bar hachi has every right. I will just say that I do not believe he is relying on the Chida. That is not his style at all. He is relying on his svara in how he came out of the sugya, and is bringing the Chida in brackets as an aside.

    As for permitting turning on lights on Yom Tov, as you see, he stated no such blanket heter, which you unfairly imply. And even so, I did take care care to submit this post in an inconspicuous way.

    By the way, I understand that the Kaf HaChaim was making a tziruf. I was only speculating that he might have made a similar kind of tziruf in regard to this case, ?????? ????. But as I said, that is not where this teshuva is coming from anyway.

    #860662

    longarekel
    Member

    yitayningwut: can I surf the net on Yom Tov? Seriously, I don’t understand the machmirim. Molid is only assur (drabanan) because it is similar to a melacha. But on Yom Tov an outright melacha of havara is permitted by a davar hashave lchol nefesh, so kol shekain molid of havarah. Unless you say every molid is assur because of boneh since it’s like you’re building something new. Please ask the Rav exactly why molid is assur on shabbos.

    #860663

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    R’ Chaim Ozer assers, it seems because of molid.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14671&st=&pgnum=505

    #860664

    sam4321
    Member

    Yitay: Wouldn’t Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach agree(Minchas Shlomo siman 9,and 11 I think) except in the case of incandescent lights?

    #860665

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    sam4321 –

    I definitely hear you, but the question here is even theoretically about kindling a fire.

    #860666

    sam4321
    Member

    Yitay: I understand,all I am saying is it seems that according to Rav Shlomo Zalman electricity is not really a problem by lights and appliances if it doesnt warm up, he disproves makeh b’patish boneh and others as well. At the end of the day he holds we don’t do it because one will make a mistake with somthing that is assur.wouldn’t that be a concern here?

    #860667

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    sam4321 – No, because if you look carefully at the teshuva, the heter here is not primarily anything to do with a kula of electricity over real fire. What was stated here b’etzem applies to kindling a real fire as well.

    #860668

    sam4321
    Member

    Yitay: I hear I was more focused on the electric aspect what is his shitta regarding shabbas and electricity,does he hold that there are any issurim? An electric switch is not really making a fire according to everyone,but it seems he holds it is muttar on the basis it is a mavier issue.

    #860669

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    sam4321 – It is a very good question. He is not matir it, that’s all I can say.

    #860670

    hello99
    Member

    yitay: “I am sure you can see how one might argue with all of the points you made, and a posek who is a bar hachi has every right”

    I never denied that. You asked if I am Maskim, and I explained why not. The bottom line is that his Heter is based on one of the ways of understanding a single Rishon. I don’t think he is relying on the Chida either. My intention was that one who follows this Kula has a Chida to rely upon.

    “he stated no such blanket heter, which you unfairly imply”

    I implied no such thing. I feel that permitting this under the common circumstances he mentioned is a huge Poretz Geder and would inevitably lead to people who see an apparently frum Yid do so to be Moreh Heter to be lenient even when it doesn’t apply.

    ha

    re the Kaf HaChaim, in a case that has another Tziruf there would be grounds to permit M’Ikar HaDin. However, as I mentioned, one must take into account how others will misconstrue this.

    #860671

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    hello99 – Thank you for clarifying your position.

    #860672

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Yitayningwut,

    Are you maskim that R’ Chaim Ozer assers?

    #860673

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    DaasYochid – Isn’t he just saying that it’s molid eish (he holds it is mammash mav’ir and mechabeh)? That doesn’t preclude the heter mentioned here.

    #860674

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    I think he means plain molid, in which case, the heter is precluded.

    #860675

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    DY – So I wanted to be mevarer if you were right and I tracked down the periodical that R’ Chaim Ozer is citing. Turns out there are lots of interesting things there. They do mention what you are referring to, though I still do not see any major indication that R’ Chaim Ozer’s reason for assering is because of anything other than molid eish.

    I would gather that this (?) is the one he is referring to, and it’s the only one from New York:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22936&st=&pgnum=7

    The one just before that seems like he would agree with Rabbi Abadi.

    Also there is this short article from the Aruch Hashulchan; I think it’s pretty famous:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22936&st=&pgnum=5

    #860676

    sam4321
    Member

    Yitay: He holds using electricity is assur or it is more like what Rav Shlomo Zalaman held that is like a minhag not to ?

    #860677

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Yit,

    See what the Debriciner Rav has to say about those who mistakenly were mattir (chelek 6, Kuntreis haelectri, siman 23 and others).

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=889&st=&pgnum=455

    I didn’t know how to find that yarchon; thanks, I’ll take a look.

    #860678

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    The key phrase, which the B’er Moshe points out was a mistake in the metzius, is:

    ??? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????

    This is one reason why I thought R’ Chaim Ozer meant molid; I didn’t think the one with whom he is disagreeing thought that the fire itself existed (the main reason for my understanding is that he also says molid, not molid aish.)

    I need more time to read the Bais Vaad for a more solidly grounded opinion.

    #860679

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    sam4321 – He apparently believed it is real mav’ir and mechabeh. But I have know idea what he thought the metzius is, and if he would say the same for all appliances.

    #860680

    sam4321
    Member

    Yitay: interesting,thank you.

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