Is Dating Tznius?

Home Coffeeroom Shidduchim Is Dating Tznius?

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  • #618811

    Joseph
    Participant

    We might never think about it, but really there are so many tznius pitfalls in dating. In the car alone. Walking at night alone with an unrelated girl. Talking alone, away from everyone, with an unrelated girl about sensitive and frivolous subjects.

    Sure we can justify all this as being for tachlis. And of course there are heteirim to be found. But really our zeidas or elter-zeidas or elter-elter-zeidas, for those of us lucky enough to have an all frum yichus going all the way back to Avrohom Avinu, didn’t date. For thousands of years our zeidas father would work out a shidduch with the girl’s father and mazal tov! The boy and girl would briefly meet in a beshow type of meeting, and if there were no objections agree to get married, vzeh hu.

    And we know that even today there are alternatives to the problems of dating. Hundreds of thousands of Yidden around the world got married without dating. They had a beshow, all in the tzniusdik confines of the parents home, and are married. The concept of frum Yidden dating isn’t much more than a hundred years old. And for most frum Yidden it started much more recent than even that.

  • #1211884

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Yes you’re right. Getting married via Craigslist ads (no photos allowed) would be way more tznius.

  • #1211885

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    In EY, you don’t date by car usually. You usually meet in a hotel lobby – a very public place. You usually don’t go for a walk on the first date, and if you do, it’s in a very public area.

    And, uh, personally, I don’t talk about sensitive and frivolous topics on dates.

    If you’re a tznius person and you go out with tznius people, there shouldn’t be any problems.

    I do agree that it would be great to have parents who could arrange things for me, and the chassidish way of doing things is great – but, it can only work if you’re from that type of society. There is a reason why different societies (within the Orthodox world) have different ways of dating.

    Sociology is a complicated thing. When things are done a certain way in one society but not in another, it is usually because there are other things that are done in that society that make this thing possible in that society and not in others.

    Someone from a Yeshivish society or a Modern Orthodox society can’t necessarily choose to do something the way it is done in Chassidish society and expect it to work.

  • #1211886

    tznius
    Member

    Unfortunately no it is not.

  • #1211887

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Joseph how did you meet your wife?

    You have children, correct?

  • #1211889

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I do hear your point; I just don’t think it’s practical or realistic. And, I haven’t noticed or heard of any problems coming up with dating (except for the fact that when you’re 18 or 19 and have never spoken to a boy before in your life, it’s really awkward and uncomfortable, but that just makes it less of an issue in terms of tznius).

  • #1211890

    tznius
    Member

    lilmod ulelamaid – I have hung out with plenty of guys thats not the issue. The issue is that i really dont know what im looking for. So whoever they set me up with and as long as his a good jew and good person thats all im concerned with.

  • #1211891

    It looks like the end of the first post is missing:

    This is why so many rabbonim and roshei yeshiva are urging their

    mispallelim/talmidim not to date and use an alternative path instead.

  • #1211893

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Almost as bad as marriage

  • #1211894

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Joseph, have you ever been on a date?

  • #1211895

    Is being married tznius?

    Hashem wants us to be, so yes it is.

  • #1211897

    Joseph
    Participant

    It is muttar when married, whereas it isn’t beforehand. You can get married while avoiding engaging in non-permitted activities beforehand to reach marital status.

  • #1211898

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Is being married tznius?”

    That’s why I’m not married (j/k).

  • #1211899

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Joseph how did you meet your wife?”

    Curious about the answer to this.

  • #1211900

    Joseph
    Participant

    Like how Yitzchok met Rivka.

  • #1211901

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Your father sent his servant to a well and she fed the donkeys water, and you didn’t even need to meet her, because you decided it was enough to know that she was a tzadeikis?

    Wow, you’re lucky that your wife is such a tzadeikis!

  • #1211902

    Joseph
    Participant

    Why, thank you!

    (May I suggest you practice your hand at wells?)

  • #1211903

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Seriously, Joseph, what do you mean when you say it was like how Yitzchok met Rivka?

  • #1211904

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I heard in the name of R’ Yaakov Kaminetzky TZATZAL that way shidduchim were done in Europe does not translate well to America as most girls did not attend yeshiva in Europe but were taught directly by thei mothers. In America they have yeshivos for girls and therefore the method of shidduchim had to change.

  • #1211905

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Maybe I should work on having better middos…. I don’t think I’m holding by giving water to camels just yet…

  • #1211906

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    How do spiritually inclined females even think of going out, dating, PLAYING GAMES?!? Shouldn’t they be on a higher dargah?!? Shouldn’t they suffice with a mere glance? (actually a spiritually inclined female will have no use for looks, that’s for the shallow male..) After all they’re the ones with the wisdom, insight, thoughtfulness, intuition. They know how to read people’s faces, expressions, foreheads and palms. Chachma, bina, daas and every thing else in between… Figure him out even before he attempts to speak. Why all the extra ‘fun’?!? A spiritually filled female ought to exude rays of holiness…

    I don’t get it… Am I missing something?!?

  • #1211907

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LF – Maybe you should speak to all those people who always pressure me to keep going out even though I can tell from the first date that it’s not shayich!!!

  • #1211908

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LF:

    “How do spiritually inclined females even think of going out, dating, PLAYING GAMES?!? Shouldn’t they be on a higher dargah?!? Shouldn’t they suffice with a mere glance?”

    It’s all relative. “more than” doesn’t translate as perfect.

  • #1211909

    BigGolem
    Participant

    To the OP, how do you know what shidduchim was like in every generation for the past 3000 years? How can you be so absolutely certain that was goes on today is so new?

  • #1211910

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, I want to meet your wife. I like tzadeikises. Can I meet her? Maybe she can come to Israel with LB?

  • #1211912

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    LuL:

    You’d be surprised, there are lots of women who didn’t “go out” at all. And are happily married. (one second, let me ask Frogette)

    After parents or caregivers or shadchanim check it out, the parties involved meet at prospective Kallah’s house. It’s not for a game or frivolous chatting, it’s for serious stuff, they meet in a tzanua’dik setting. They get to see if they like each other enough to start a Yiddishe home together. If they find themselves compatible and willing, they go ahead and finalize. Three or four meetings more or less is the norm, believe it or not. And then, (and a SPIRITUAL INCLINED FEMALE should surely know), many circles do not communicate until after the Chuppa. It does not bring out the best in either to mix, mingle with the other – the are NOT couple yet. And if all works out (which would more likely happen if they use restraint at the beginning), they’ll have each other to talk to many, many years!!

    Take a tip from Yitzchak Avinu (actually that’s why the Torah choose to write it) ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???????. He brought her in to his mother’s tent (he found her compatible – ??? ??? ???) he married her, and THEN grew to love her. That is the way for a Yiddishe marriage to succeed. You don’t have to love before marriage, and it won’t bring out any good.

    But of course any highly spiritual female knows that.

  • #1211913

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LF – I’ve always said that I’d be more than happy to do things the Chassidish way. If I knew someone who was capable of finding my zivug for me, I’d be happy not to have to date. But I don’t, so I have to.

    But what you are describing sounds like a regular shidduch date to me. Except that it’s a sit-in instead of going to a hotel lobby. Otherwise, it’s the same thing. Sometimes shidduch dates are sit-in’s too which would make it the same thing.

    Regarding Yitzchak loving Rivka after marriage, I once heard a shiur about how by Yaakov it says that he loved Rochel before he married her. This shows that everyone is different, and different people need to be at a different stage before marriage.

    I very much believe that everyone is different and everyone needs to date differently. A person’s age, personality and personal experiences have a very big effect on what they need. I have known people who needed more time before they got engaged and people who needed less, and it had no connection to how Frum or Yeshivish or tznius they were.

    I knew a couple who were extremely Frum and tznius and took a while to get to a decision and people put pressure on them. Her parents were divorced and he had lost his father the year before. I really don’t think it was right of people to put pressure on them. Everyone needs a different amount of time and people shouldn’t put pressures on others. There are so many broken engagements and divorces, so it clearly is possible for people to decide too quickly.

    Honestly, I have no clue how long I will take since I am not there yet, but it makes sense that at my age when I’m mainly going out with divorced guys, dating is going to be very different than it is for sheltered 18 year old girls who have parents who take care of everything for them.

    I’ve spoken to one of the Gedolei Hador about dating and the things he was saying about how shidduchim should be approached and what I should be doing were VERY different than what you are saying. Probably because I’m not 18, so it is different.

  • #1211914

    Joseph
    Participant

    LF: +1

  • #1211915

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LF – I just reread your post. I’m not even sure what your point is. What you are talking about is shidduch dating. Joseph’s OP was about how shidduch dating is wrong. That is what I was arguing against.

  • #1211916

    BigGolem
    Participant

    Little Froggie- “But of course any highly spiritual female knows that.”

    That statement is very condescending. A large segment of klal israel, whose women are frum and eager to get married, cannot simply date 3 or 4 times and be done. To suggest that they are not ‘highly spiritual’ because they don’t conform to your perfected way of doing things, is arrogant and insulting.

  • #1211917

    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, what LF described is quite different than shidduch dating. Dating might include going to restaurants, parks, bowling, sightseeing, lobbies, drives in car rides with only the unrelated boy and girl together with no one else, etc. What LF described includes none of that.

  • #1211919

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    In EY, it is very similar to the way he described.

  • #1211920

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    BG- +1

  • #1211921

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    And Joseph, I’m still waiting to hear how you met your wife.

  • #1211922

    Matan1
    Member

    What about the way Yaakov met Rachel? Perhaps we should emulate that.

  • #1211923

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Joseph, yes please ask your wife to meet me in London so we can go to EY and meet LU where your wife will give us brachas to marry our zivugs this year according to the only perfect approach. Thank you.

  • #1211924

    LU, you’re going to have to keep waiting… Joseph just ignores questions that he can’t answer…

  • #1211926

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    btw, if anyone knows a guy for me that is so clearly matim for me that I don’t have to go out more than 4 times I would be very happy! In fact, if I could just skip the 4 times, I would be even happier!

  • #1211927

    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, what are your feelings about the problematic shidduch dating system in the US and other places outside Eretz Yisroel that I described in my immediately preceding comment? (What you’re describing as the dating system in EY seems to be closer to the Chasidish beshow system than to the American shidduch dating system.)

  • #1211928

    BigGolem
    Participant

    lilmod ulelamaid- why don’t you take a step back, and describe for us what your dating experience has been like, what are the chief complaints you have with the current system, and what do you think is missing with the guys today (or at least the ones you met).

    I’m sure you have much to say.

  • #1211929

    Joseph
    Participant

    If the American yeshivish oilem changed their dating system to the way the Eretz Yisroel yeshivish oilem dates (as I understand it from lilmod’s description), a lot of the tznius problems inherent in the American system would be resolved.

    (Not to say that the Chasidish system wouldn’t be even better, from a tznius perspective. It would be.)

  • #1211930

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – Thank you for asking me for my opinion.

    My feeling in general on this topic is that everyone is different and everyone needs to do things the way that works for them, and people shouldn’t be so quick to judge the way others do things.

    Of course, there may be some ways of doing things that are theoretically more ideal than others but they may not work for everyone.

    Shidduchim is a very sensitive matter, and it is very important that everyone feels that he can do things the way that is right for him and that he doesn’t feel judged or looked down on for it.

    This goes both ways – I can’t stand it when people criticize others for only going out 4 times and I can’t stand it when people are criticized for needing to go out for 3 months. Everyone is different, and people shouldn’t be so judgmental.

    Personally, I think that the reason I am not married yet is because I was forced to do things in ways that were wrong for me.

  • #1211931

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    BG- I could probably write a book. Or maybe a few. I don’t have time right now, but b”n, I will try to get back to you when I have time to think about it.

  • #1211932

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    BG, (I can’t get myself to call you by your sn, sorry), my ‘article’ was tongue in cheek for whoever needed it. Don’t get carried away with it.

    And LuL:

    I heard an approach, it’s kedai to listen (lishmo’a) – maybe I’m a Gadol (you have to be dan l’zchus!). And the idea is somewhat along these lines: a person should make his / her hishtadlus in this inyan, but place the emphasis on betachon on HaShem. As I heard quoted, when HaShem sees your ‘taking over’ He says ‘OK little one, let’s see what you could do for yourself’. This, I heard, is a reason why so many bright individuals cannot make ends meet, somehow they don’t end up being the millionaires. HaShem says to them, ‘your so bright, you’re seemingly in control – let’s see what you could do’.

    Of course one must make the hishtadlus, but as we learn from the Parsha of Shidduchim, in the end (beginning and middle too) it’s all about ????? ?????.

  • #1211933

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph: “If the American yeshivish oilem changed their dating system to the way the Eretz Yisroel yeshivish oilem dates (as I understand it from lilmod’s description), a lot of the tznius problems inherent in the American system would be resolved.”

    The Yeshivish people that I know in America date the same way. At least that’s what my friend’s daughter did. The only difference was the car part. In Israel, most people don’t have cars, so you have to take a bus to the hotel lobby. In most places in the US, you can’t get around by bus, so the guy has to pick the girl up by car.

  • #1211934

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    One difference between EY and American dating system is the ease and safety of getting around. In EY, where the yeshivish bochurim do not have licenses or cars, the girl and boy both travel by bus to a designated hotel (unless they have a sit-in in some neutral home), meet in the lobby, sit for 2-3 h over drinks, and then part and go home separately. The first date can lead to some awkward moments when they have to figure out who their date is among those waiting around. I can’t imagine a girl in NY traveling by herself by public transportation late at night from the Manhattan hotel to her home, or even earlier on, from her home to Manhattan.

    The reason why dates include parks or museums or other places more entertaining than a hotel lobby, is because sometimes people need to be more relaxed to get to know each other.

    By the way, in the real “olden days” the girls would dress up in white and go out and dance, and the boys would choose from among them- if we did that today, there would be plenty of postings on the CR about how it lacks tznius.

  • #1211936

    Person1
    Member

    LF: “How do spiritually inclined females even think of going out, dating, PLAYING GAMES?!? Shouldn’t they be on a higher dargah?!? Shouldn’t they suffice with a mere glance? (actually a spiritually inclined female will have no use for looks, that’s for the shallow male..) After all they’re the ones with the wisdom, insight, thoughtfulness, intuition. They know how to read people’s faces, expressions, foreheads and palms. Chachma, bina, daas and every thing else in between… Figure him out even before he attempts to speak. Why all the extra ‘fun’?!? A spiritually filled female ought to exude rays of holiness…

    I don’t get it… Am I missing something?!?”

    Is it impposible for you to make direct statements? Why do you have to hide behind so many layers of sarcasm?

    See what I did here? I had a problem with you and I told you what it was. And it took me 4 lines!

  • #1211937

    Joseph
    Participant

    The solo car ride between boy and girl is only one issue. Going to a lobby, okay. But an amusement park, bowling, ice skating, restaurant, sightseeing, etc.? I dunno. The yeshivish oilem doesn’t seem to do that in Eretz Yisroel.

  • #1211938

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Take a tip from Yitzchak Avinu (actually that’s why the Torah choose to write it) ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???????. He brought her in to his mother’s tent (he found her compatible – ??? ??? ???) he married her, and THEN grew to love her.

    Or from Ya’akov Avinu.

    ?????????? ??????? ???-?????

    The Wolf

    different type of ????

  • #1211939

    BigGolem
    Participant

    lilmod ulelamaid- or you could offer tidbits and go from there. Your musing will surely stimulate much discussion. I’m just curious.

  • #1211940

    BigGolem
    Participant

    Little Froggie- Then I apologize for being harsh.

  • #1211941

    Person1
    Member

    Joseph: “amusement park, bowling, ice skating, restaurant, sightseeing, etc.? I dunno. The yeshivish oilem doesn’t seem to do that in Eretz Yisroel”

    There’s no disputing dating in E”Y is more conservative, but you should remember that The yeshivish oilem in E”Y rarely go to ice-skating or bowling at all, not only on dates. For many even restaurants are out of the question (depending on how yeshivish we’re talking about)

    Parks are a very common destination for a date in E”Y too.

    If a guy can get a car it’s perfectly normal to drive the girl tofrom the date, (and I’m not talking about “modern” guys) but it’s never a requirement like with you. In any case the guy would order a cab for the girl and accompany her home (unless distance would not allows)

  • #1211942

    yichusdik
    Participant

    LU – “My feeling in general on this topic is that everyone is different and everyone needs to do things the way that works for them, and people shouldn’t be so quick to judge the way others do things.”

    +1

    But I don’t think you’ll get much support on this from J et al. Tough crowd. And I include myself. I’m probably more tolerant than most around here and I still find myself occasionally being judgmental. We are products of our upbringing, for better and worse.

  • #1211943

    chala2
    Member

    why should it be untznius ? every guy meets hus wife before???

  • #1211944

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Person1, you have a problem with me?? Join the crowd…

    Seriously, you’re coming in middle of a convo, (a dif thread)

  • #1211945

    Meno
    Participant

    “Is Dating Tznius?”

    That’s kind of like asking “Is wearing clothing tznius?” or “Is making a wedding tznius?”

    There’s a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it.

  • #1211946

    Joseph
    Participant

    My question, as I think is self-evident from the description and subsequent conversation, is whether the commonly used system itself – as it is practiced by many – is tznius. For the reasons cited.

  • #1211947

    Just pointing out that Joseph has continued to ignore LU’s question about how Joseph met his wife… Hey Joseph, we need the chizuk. Please tell us how you met your wife. I’d hate to imagine that you’re someone that talks big on the forums, but in reality doesn’t actually practice what you preach.

    Please tell us how your arranged marriage took place. Chanukah is coming and we need your story to inspire us and help us fight the secular influences around us.

  • #1211948

    BigGolem
    Participant

    Of all the questions, criticisms, craziness, you can bring up when discussing the shidduch processes, your main concern is a possible lack of tznius?

  • #1211949

    Joseph
    Participant

    Possible lack of tznius is no biggie, BG?

  • #1211950

    YW Moderator-29
    Moderator

    That ain’t at all what he said.

  • #1211951

    Joseph
    Participant

    Reuven, our fathers agreed to our marriage when we were toddlers.

  • #1211952

    Joseph,

    So did you go out on any dates? Did you have a beshow?

  • #1211953

    You are the spiritual leader of the CR so we need to know exactly what you did- so we can emulate you.

  • #1211954

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “In any case the guy would order a cab for the girl and accompany her home (unless distance would not allows)”

    Reminds me of a funny shidduch story (I know it’s not the right thread):

    I went out with a guy who was more Israeli than American. He told me that the girls he goes out with sometimes think he’s cheap because he doesn’t take them home by taxi. One time he went out with a girl and she ordered a taxi for herself (instead of taking a bus). She got really upset when he asked if he get a ride in the taxi since his house was on the way and she was ordering a taxi anyhow.

    Another time, a guy I went out with ordered a taxi for himself but not for me.

  • #1211955

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    After reading a number of these posts I am wondering if the issue is Tznius or Yichud?

  • #1211956

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I am curious about your statement about taxis, Person1. I don’t know what nationality you are (American, Israeli or other), but in my dating experience in Israel, the guys don’t order taxis for me; I take the bus home.

    I mostly go out with Americans though, not Israelis. From a few conversations I’ve had with people (including the story in my above post as well as your comment), I have the impression that maybe by Israelis, it is more the norm to order a taxi. I know two girls (one was born here and the other came when she was starting high school) who told me that they would be really upset if a guy didn’t get a taxi for them.

    I was very surprised by that! Do you know if that’s really the norm by Israelis?

    The truth is that I have usually lived in far-out places so a taxi would have been expensive, but I think this was the case even when I lived more centrally.

  • #1211957

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Where is there a yichud problem? You mean in the car?

  • #1211958

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Possible lack of tznius is no biggie?”

    maskim.

  • #1211959

    Person1
    Member

    LU: my nationality is Israeli, and I was talking about the way yeshivish people in Israel date, and yes it’s the norm as long as it’s in the same city. Why are you so surprised by that?

    Usually they say the reason for this is so the girl will have some privacy and won’t be seen by everybody getting back from a date (if you live in a chareidi neibghourhood you’ll understand) I don’t know if that’s really the reason.

    I suppose Americans living in Israel do things differently. Also maybe at a certain age guys do things less by the book, which is probably a blessing (except for the taxi)

    I know some girls would prefer getting home by bus (as in real life they would never order a taxi for anything) but they’re too shy to say anything.

  • #1211960

    Hashemisreading
    Participant

    I don’t get it. how can you meet someone for an hour, or even 2 or 3, and then decide you want to live with them for the rest of your life?!?!

  • #1211961

    Joseph
    Participant

    American yeshivish bochorim, by and large, do not have their own cars. They usually borrow their father’s car or rent a car for the date. So the fact that the Eretz Yisroel yeshivish bochorim don’t drive their dates is a deliberate decision. They could’ve also borrowed a parents or relatives car or rented one. But they b’davka do not.

  • #1211962

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Why are you so surprised by that?”

    I was surprised by the girls who thought the guy was cheap for not ordering a taxi. In my circles, it’s not done, and I certainly wouldn’t think someone is cheap if they didn’t.

    I mainly date chutznikim, so they probably do things differently. I am referring to all my years of dating even when I was younger. However, when I was younger, most of the guys I dated were not really Yeshivish, and the ones who were Yeshivish were usually bt, so that might also be different.

    Also, most of the time I was either living in a dorm or a girls’ apartment. Maybe it’s different when the girl is living at home.

  • #1211963

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Disclamer: My comments about dating in EY are mainly based on my own experiences, and I am not in typical Israeli Yeshivish circles. My circles are basically “American singles living in Israel on their own of somewhat varying hashkafas and backgrounds”.

    I do have the impression that typical Yeshivish Israelis do things similarly, but I will have to check with my friends who are now at the stage of having typical Israeli Yeshivish kids in shidduchim.

  • #1211965

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    What other option do Yeshiva Bochurim have in the States (other than driving)?

  • #1211966

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LU: Yes, as stated in Joseph’s OP: “We might never think about it, but really there are so many tznius pitfalls in dating. In the car alone.”

    Since when is a car, with windows on all sides an issue of “tznius”? It certainly doesn’t fit the definition of “yichud”.

  • #1211967

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lilmod: car service, taxi, Uber, bus, subway. The Americans can do the same as the Eretz Yisroel’dika.

  • #1211968

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Iacisrmma – I thought you meant that you thought it’s a yichud issue.

    Apparently, Joseph wasn’t talking about “yichud” but about “tznius” or he would have used the word “yichud” and not “tznius”. The concept of tznius encompasses a lot more than yichud. In this case, it would have to do with the idea that boys and girls aren’t supposed to be too intimate. In general, boys and girls don’t drive around together when it’s not a dating situation, and even when men give rides to women, the women generally sit in the back (in the Yeshivish oilam, at least).

    You have to do what you have to do in order to get married, but you should make sure that the dating process is conducted as tzniusly as possible and practical. I agree with him on that. What I am unsure about is:

    1. Is there an alternative?

    2. Even though dating should be as tznius as is possible while still being effective, different people need different things in order for dating to be effective. Just like some people might say, “why do you need to meet for more than 20 minutes?” and other people think, “no, of course I need to go out for 3 or 4 times.” and other people feel like they can’t get to know the other person well enough to be comfortable marrying them unless they actually do something on the date.

    I do wonder sometimes if it wouldn’t have been better for me to have dated more “American style”. I don’t know. But the question of what is effective has to be taken into account.

    But maybe for most Yeshivish 19 year olds, there is no reason why they have to date by car. I don’t know.

  • #1211969

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    In Lakewood, the only thing that’s an option from that list is a car service, and car services are expensive. Also, there’s nowhere to go to close by, so that means that

    1: The car service will be very expensive

    2. It wouldn’t make sense for them to go there in separate cars. If they go in the same car service, the car service drivers are frum guys who live in Lakewood, so it would be kind of awkward.

    You would have the same problem in a lot of out-of-town places.

  • #1211970

    Abba_S
    Participant

    What do you think of dating via Skype this should solve the problem. This way a girl from Israel can date a boy from Brazil from the privacy of their home, saving both of them time and money. What do you think? There is no Yichud problems as there wouldn’t be in a car and it could be very tzniusdik. The only fault I see is it’s VOIP (Voice Over Internet Protocol) and anything on the internet is bad.

    I haven’t dated in 33 years as I am married, but I don’t know why it can’t work. Anybody want to give me feedback.

    Since when is a car, with windows on all sides an issue of “tznius”? It certainly doesn’t fit the definition of “yichud”.

    If the car is park in a secluded area or driving down deserted streets there might be a Yichud problem.

  • #1211971

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, I’m trying to understand your reasoning as to why a car is a problem. I’m not saying that you are wrong; I’m just trying to figure out what the issue is. Is your concern what it could lead to or that in and of itself it’s not appropriate?

  • #1211972

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lilmod, Brooklyn and some other places don’t have that excuse.

  • #1211973

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, not everyone lives in Brooklyn.

  • #1211974

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Abba, I’ve never skyped, but it doesn’t sound like a good way to date to me. You need to see the person not their image on a computer.

  • #1211975

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lilmod, that doesn’t excuse why those dating in Brooklyn and similar places drive together solo, even if we accept your rational for other places.

  • #1211976

    Joseph
    Participant

    As far as the issue, if you were driving solo from Ashdod to Haifa and the nice neighborhood seforim store owner guy your family knew for years needed to get there too, would you offer him a ride? (Or feel comfortable if he asked you for a ride.)

  • #1211977

    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    I think it depends what level people are on. No one in a MO community is going to adhere to a chumra of not driving in a car together. But someone in Meah Shearim might.

  • #1211978

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    In the USA most people have a car or access to a car. Not everyone lives close to public transportation and taxi / car services are not cost effective options.

  • #1211979

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, I hear. I still have a few problems with it:

    1. As it is, there is a problem that guys in Brooklyn sometimes won’t go out with girls from other places because they don’t want to have to travel. Won’t this make them more unlikely to do so since dating will be so much easier in Brooklyn where they don’t have to pick the girl up?

    2. Isn’t the boy supposed to meet the parents before they go out? Or does it not work that way anymore? Or is the point that he would first come to the house and then they would go out by public transportation?

    3. Wouldn’t it be unsafe for the girl to go home by herself (or is the point that he would take her home by public transportation)?

    I’m also wondering if you know what others think about this issue. Are a lot of the boys and girls who date this way (by car) uncomfortable with it? Do they feel it’s a breach in tznius? Would they be more comfortable not dating this way?

  • #1211980

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph: “As far as the issue, if you were driving solo from Ashdod to Haifa and the nice neighborhood seforim store owner guy your family knew for years needed to get there too, would you offer him a ride? (Or feel comfortable if he asked you for a ride.)”

    I didn’t realize that was what you meant. I have thought about that. That is why I make sure to check guys out well especially when I’ve gone out in the US. I was really upset once when a shadchan tried pressurring me to go out with someone without checking him out first and she didn’t “chap” why I thought it was dangerous (amongst other reasons).

    On the other hand, the counter-argument might be: aren’t people supposed to be checking the guy out well enough to know that he is someone they would trust enough to marry or let their daughter marry?

  • #1211981

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Futurepotus: I think he’s talking about American Yeshivish communities.

  • #1211982

    Abba_S
    Participant

    LU-Abba, “I’ve never skyped, but it doesn’t sound like a good way to date to me. You need to see the person not their image on a computer.”

    When you see someone aren’t you just seeing their image or do you need to see their shadow to make sure they are not a shade (evil spirit).

    “As it is, there is a problem that guys in Brooklyn sometimes won’t go out with girls from other places because they don’t want to have to travel”

    Dating via Skype will solve this problem.

    “Wouldn’t it be unsafe for the girl to go home by herself.”

    Dating via Skype will solve this problem.

    Dating via skype save time, money and is less intimidating then dating in person. Also you avoid Yichud and the possibility of touching.

    But thank you for the feedback.

  • #1211983

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “When you see someone aren’t you just seeing their image or do you need to see their shadow to make sure they are not a shade (evil spirit).”

    I wasn’t talking about seeing their physical appearance (only). There are aspects to the person themselves that only come through when you see the person and interact with them. That’s why we don’t just date by phone or email.

    And actually, I am not just seeing the person’s image when I see the person.

  • #1211984

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Then again, there have been guys I went out with whom I didn’t check out well enough and only realized what they were like afterwards. So I do hear your point, Joseph. But, I still think it’s not so practical outside of New York.

    I also think that the very Yeshivish people do check things out well beforehand. That is why they only have to date a few times – since their parents already checked out the guy beforehand and already feel that he would be an appropriate person for their daughter to marry (which means that they would trust him to take her on a date).

  • #1211985

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Joseph, most Israeli Yeshiva Bochurim do not have driver licenses, most yeshivos do not let their bochurim get one. So they could not borrow their fathers’ cars even if they had one.

    Also, in the chareidi world, a car is not considered a necessity, and is often beyond a typical kollel family’s budget. Besides the cost of the car, insurance is very expensive, gas is about twice what it costs in the US, and just getting a license is a fortune- you have to take something like 28 mandatory lessons, besides the test and fees, so it can cost thousands of shekels.

    So going by bus is the normal thing to do in Israel, even for a date.

    I always did wonder though how tznius it is when everyone on the bus sees the girl dressed fancy on a weekday- and knows exactly where she is going, especially if it is during sefira when she can’t be going to a chasuna.

  • #1211986

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    WTP – she could be going to a simcha. Also, not everyone gets that dressed up, especially in EY.

  • #1211987

    ccguy
    Member

    Taking public transportation in Brooklyn/Manhattan at night is not safe for a girl. Taking public is also not time/cost efficient. Therefore it makes more sense to take a car. I’ve never felt that driving on a date is not tznius. Other aspects I have felt are not so tznius such as the girls getting decked out(over the top) but the actual driving was never an issue.

    And as LU pointed out, the girls parents usually want to meet the guy first so it would be weird to then travel on a bus/subway together. It’s also quite untznius taking public transportation in general during the summer months.

    On the topic of activities, I’ve found that they really break the ice and the boy/girl give the most accurate depiction of themselves during those times. It also allows you to see many aspects of the person which you would otherwise have a hard time finding out. In lobbies and similar venues there is too much pressure to be a stiff and proper.

  • #1211988

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    LU- note I said especially during sefira. But even at other times, since the popular dating hotels are not on the same bus routes as most of the simcha halls (usually in industrial areas), it is pretty obvious.

  • #1211989

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant
  • #1211990

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ccguy: “It’s also quite untznius taking public transportation in general during the summer months.”

    That’s a good point. I was wondering about that. Personally, I always tried to avoid goyish transportation when I was in the US. But if they took a taxi, it would avoid that problem.

    In terms of meeting the parents, he could first go to her house and then they could take public transportation together.

    Also, does everyone really meet the parents beforehand and is it absolutely necessary? Girls who are from out-of town and are living in Lakewood or Brooklyn – I imagine the guy doesn’t end up meeting the parents beforehand. So if it’s for an important enough cause (assuming there really is a tznius issue here), maybe it can be skipped.

    I agree with you about the activities. And I have davka been advised that I should do things on dates (not that it’s up to me…)

  • #1211991

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    WTP- I don’t see why it’s untznius though. It just might be uncomfortable for her the first few times she goes out, but after that she shouldn’t mind. I certainly don’t care anymore if people know I’m going on a date.

    Even if you don’t take public transportation, they can see you when you are in the hotel lobby or they can see the guy when he comes to the door or they can see both of you as you are walking to the car (that sounds even more awkward to me! How do people manage that?)

  • #1211992

    Person1
    Member

    Joseph: “

    American yeshivish bochorim, by and large, do not have their own cars. They usually borrow their father’s car or rent a car for the date. So the fact that the Eretz Yisroel yeshivish bochorim don’t drive their dates is a deliberate decision. They could’ve also borrowed a parents or relatives car or rented one. But they b’davka do not”

    Please when you’re speculating about a country and a sociaty you don’t live in have the decency to add words like “seems like” and “probably”.

  • #1211993

    Person1
    Member

    Joseph you started your post demanding that we all go chasidish. Why are you suddenly content with being similar to the litvish people in E”Y? Is it just the lesser of two evils? Or do you suppose everything they do in the the yeshivish oilem in E”Y is kodoysh kodoysh and would allow no discussion?

    You probably know that in some chasidish communities it’s considered untznius for the husband and wife to take a walk togather in the street. Are we suppose to follow them by default just because they take a more extreme position? Or is it again solely the E”Y yeshivish world that’s worth following?

  • #1211994

    Avi K
    Participant

    Rav Moshe says it is permitted to take public transportation if necessary (Iggerot Moshe, Even HaEzer, 2:14). All of these far-out chumrot are gezerot that almost none of the public can keep. The result of pushing them will be a light attitude towards real halachot. This, in fact, is happening in Israel with the craze to find a way for everything to be under the prohibition of kitniyot during Pesach. Next they wil claim that an Ashkenazi can’t talk to a Sephardi because he might have kitniyot on his breathe.

  • #1211995

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, the things said about people who impose unnecessary chumros are none too flattering. Don’t go down that path.

  • #1211996

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Rav Moshe says it is permitted to take public transportation if necessary”

    Emphasis on the words, “if necessary”. According to Chazal if someone takes a route that involves seeing people untzniusly dressed and he had another option, he is a rasha.

    In any case, the point of this discussion is to figure out the best option. If the whole purpose of his taking public transportation rather than driving the girl is to be more tznius and meanwhile it’s actually less tznius, that would defeat the point.

  • #1211997

    I agree with you about the activities. And I have davka been advised that I should do things on dates (not that it’s up to me…)

    OF COURSE it is up to you. If you aren’t assertive when you are dating, how can you expect your future husband to know you as anything other than a pushover?

    The result of pushing them will be a light attitude towards real halachot.

    This has already happened in the realm of “Tznius”.

  • #1211998

    benignuman
    Participant

    (I have not read the this entire thread so maybe this has already been said)

    The issue with dating is not one of “tznius,” it is one of halacha. Unfortunately, we no longer maintain tahara for terumos, chalah, or eating chullin. As such all of our unmarried girls are ervos d’oraisa (???). It is clear halacha in the Shulchan Aruch that one is not allowed to laugh/play with ????? or be lightheaded/frivilous/flirtatious with ?????. Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 21:1.

    The Shulchan Aruch does say that it is mutar to stare at a ????? to decide whether you would like to marry her. Even assuming that this is not referring to a penuyah tahorah, this heter is limited to histaklus. There is no heter for ???? and ???? ???. And yet, this is what goes on on most dates after the first (assuming things are “going well”).

    Finally, even if one argues that nowadays we need to extend the heter of Chazal to ???? and ???? ??? (which I don’t see how we could do, lacking a Sanhedrin), there is no basis for allowing such things once the young couple have made a decision to get married. How is it that young couples continue to date when they “unofficially” and “officially” engaged?

  • #1211999

    Joseph
    Participant

    benignuman: You’re making a strong case that a chasidish type shidduch system is halachicly required.

  • #1212000

    There is no heter for ???? and ???? ???. And yet, this is what goes on on most dates after the first (assuming things are “going well”).

    This is a good point. Each date should be L’Toeles, not for “???? and ???? ???”. If one gets to the point where the dates are “flirtatious”, the the couple needs to scale back.

    I would hope in Yeraim communities where dating is L’Toeles, there is not ???? and ???? ???.

  • #1212001

    Meno
    Participant

    Requiring the chasidish type shidduch system would result in many terrible marriages. I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with the system, it’s just not for everyone.

  • #1212002

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “How is it that young couples continue to date when they “unofficially” and “officially” engaged?”

    They only see or speak to each other to the extent that their Roshei Yeshivas allow.

  • #1212003

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I actually heard that there was a Rav who said that people should go out at least 8 times before they get engaged because there are so many divorces today.

    Considering how many divorces, broken engagements and older singles there are, I think one has to be very careful about making generalizations about how people should date.

  • #1212004

    DaMoshe and Person1,

    Though you guys are right, there is no point calling out Joseph. When he sees arguments that he can’t refute or are inconvient to the point he is making, he simply ignores them. Probably because he’s a bored 15 year old Yeshiva bachur. Don’t bother waiting for him to respond to your points.

  • #1212005

    Joseph
    Participant

    Meno, the Chasidim have at least as many great marriages as non-Chasidim, so clearly something is working with how they’re doing things.

    Lilmod, even among the yeshivish the divorce rate is no lower among those that dated their spouse more times than those that dated less times. Anecdotally I’ve even found better marriages and less divorces among those that dated less times in the yeshivish oilem.

  • #1212006

    Shloimel
    Member

    OMG LOL. It’s hilarious that people still take Joseph seriously, and even try to engage in discussion with him.

  • #1212007

    Meno
    Participant

    “Meno, the Chasidim have at least as many great marriages as non-Chasidim, so clearly something is working with how they’re doing things.”

    I don’t doubt that. But as I said it’s not for everyone. The chasidish system works well for chasidim due to other cultural factors. That system wouldn’t work well for other people.

    My point is, perhaps you’re right that in an ideal world everyone would do it that way. But this isn’t an ideal world and there’s no way you could get the chasidish system to work for everyone.

  • #1212008

    Joseph
    Participant

    Meno, what leads you to believe that if the yeshivish oilem emulated parts of the chasidish shidduch methodology (even if not across the board), it would be detrimental?l I don’t think there’s evidence of that.

  • #1212009

    twisted
    Member

    As tzanua as one can be, and still stay rational. EY, in the city, (because I am lazy) commute by bus, in black and white casual, to a neighborhood where neither party (me in particular) is not a well known face, and keep it to a street side bench or bench in non deserted park. When it is a no go, you wind it down kindly and with tact, say nechmad lehakir, and jump back on the bus. But ya got to be in it to win it.

  • #1212010

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, I agree with you 100% that the more Yeshivish the community the less divorces (in general, imho). In fact, that is why I always get upset when people attack the more Yeshivish ways of dating as though they are to blame for the rising divorce rate.

    BUT, I think that there is a big difference between saying that the more Yeshivish/Chassidish ways are the reason for the high divorce rate (which as you pointed out does not seem to be substantiated by the facts), and saying that there are people who would be better off going out more often or in different ways.

    As I keep pointing out, these things are very individual and everyone has to do what’s right for him/her.

    One thing that is bothering me about this conversation: If it’s untznius for people to go out more than a handful of times, or to have more casual dates (even though it’s for toeles), why is it okay for men to be talking to women online (and telling them that the way they date is untznius)?

    Personally, I think that both things fall in grey areas of halacha, which doesn’t mean that there is no right and wrong, but it does mean that it depends on the individual and the situation and therefore only the person himself can make his own cheshbonos (by weighing the ideal against the reality).

    I totally agree with you that dating has to be as tznius as possible, but it also has to be effective, and what that necessitates is different for everyone.

  • #1212011

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    GAW: “There is no heter for ???? and ???? ???. And yet, this is what goes on on most dates after the first (assuming things are “going well”).

    This is a good point. Each date should be L’Toeles, not for “???? and ???? ???”. If one gets to the point where the dates are “flirtatious”, the the couple needs to scale back.

    I would hope in Yeraim communities where dating is L’Toeles, there is not ???? and ???? ???.”

    There are people (super-Yeshivish super-tznius people) who feel that a certain amount of that may be necessary.

    There is also a difference between older singles and younger singles. While it is possible that it is not necessary for younger singles, it is definitely necessary for older singles (within appropriate bounds of course).

    And I would think that to some degree it is needed for most younger singles as well in order for the dating to serve the purpose it is meant to serve.

    (by the way, I am defining “schok” and “kalus rosh” according to a broad definition which is the halachic definition if I am not mistaken).

  • #1212012

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Person1 –

    “Please when you’re speculating about a country and a sociaty you don’t live in have the decency to add words like “seems like” and “probably”. “

    Yup. I have been wanting to make that same disclaimer to a few other posters as well. And additionally this one:

    “Please, when speculating about something that happens in New York can you please have the decency NOT to write words implying it applies to Jews in general or everyone (ie, it is accepted that…, the way it is done is…, in any shul you will find…)”

  • #1212013

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I think the comment about not taking Joseph seriously was a bit offensive. I see no reason not to take his comments in this thread seriously. You may disagree (as I do to some extent), but there it is no reason not to take him seriously. I think that his comments were meant seriously and were l’sheim Shamayim out of a sincere concern for tznius.

  • #1212014

    BigGolem
    Participant

    “I agree with you 100% that the more Yeshivish the community the less divorces (in general, imho).”

    How do we know this? Are there numbers to back it up?

  • #1212015

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    BigGolem – that’s why I added the words imho. I knew someone would ask that question. 🙂

    No, I don’t have numbers to back it up. It is just my opinion, and I mentioned it only because I was responding to Joseph’s statement and pointing out that even though I agree with him on that, I don’t see it as a contradiction to my statement. And there was no need for me to have statistics in order to make that point.

  • #1212016

    benignuman
    Participant

    “One thing that is bothering me about this conversation: If it’s untznius for people to go out more than a handful of times, or to have more casual dates (even though it’s for toeles), why is it okay for men to be talking to women online (and telling them that the way they date is untznius).”

    Lilmod,

    I don’t mean to pick on you but one of my pet peeves about words like “tznius” and the overly broad way they are used in our circles is that it obfuscates what is “grey area” as you put it, and what is black on white halacha pesuka. Schok and Kalus rosh with arayos is a gezeira d’rabbanan for which the punishment is lashes (makos mardos).

    Talking to women online in a manner that is not schok or kalus rosh is not forbidden by a gezeira. It might be in some circumstances and among some communities “untzniusdik” according to their standards. But that sort of “tznius” is an organic concept of Daas Yehudis, something that fluctuates and changes with the time and place. The two cannot be compared.

    Just because you feel it is necessary for singles to engage in schok and kalus rosh is insufficient to be mevatel a gezeiras chazal. It would take very broad shoulders to declare a horaas shoh.

  • #1212017

    BigGolem
    Participant

    lilmod ulelamaid- I don’t think anyone has numbers to back it up. It’s an assumption we all make because it’s something we want to believe is true. The frummer we are = the more restrictive the dating is = less divorce.

    Sp let’s assume that it is in fact true. Does fewer divorces automatically mean happier marriages?

  • #1212018

    lightbrite
    Participant

    People often derive happiness from living a meaningful life

    What if less divorces = marriage for a cause = contentment in the struggle

  • #1212019

    Joseph
    Participant

    benignuman: You agree that the halachic point you are making indicates that the chasidish model is far preferable halachicly, if not actually mandatory?

  • #1212020

    benignuman
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Yes, I agree that is preferable. I don’t think it is mandatory because I think that there is median between modern dating in the Yeshiva world and the Chasidish model that is mutar.

  • #1212021

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    If there were major tznius problems and potential arayos issues about the typical American yeshivish way of dating (as opposed to Chasidish), wouldn’t the roshei yeshiva and rabbonim, who I am sure know what goes on and are involved in their talmidim’s and children’s dating, say something and put a stop to it? If they haven’t, then maybe they feel it is necessary?

    By the way, I heard from someone who grew up in and around the Mir Yeshiva, that the girls of the Mir families knew all the bochurim, and shidduchim would be arranged accordingly. So much for today’s falling standards…

  • #1212022

    benignuman
    Participant

    WinniethePooh,

    That is a good question. Maybe there is someone big out there who has declared a horaas shoh that everyone is relying on. But I suspect that the Roshei Yeshiva do not know what goes on typical dates (outside of the very Yeshivish) after the first one or two. I have hard time believing that any Rosh Yeshiva would tell his talmid that it is mutar to take a girl to Dave & Busters or Chelsea Piers. When I was in the parsha it never even occurred to me to ask.

  • #1212023

    Joseph
    Participant

    benignuman, how many dates did you have with your wife prior to marriage, and what did you do on your later dates?

  • #1212024

    Shloimel
    Member

    “I think the comment about not taking Joseph seriously was a bit offensive. I see no reason not to take his comments in this thread seriously.”

    Oh, I didn’t just mean in this thread, I meant all the time.

    “You may disagree (as I do to some extent), but there it is no reason not to take him seriously. I think that his comments were meant seriously and were l’sheim Shamayim out of a sincere concern for tznius.”

    I think years worth of trying to stir the pot, living under a dozen usernames, and avoiding all comments that uproot his twisted logic are enough of a reason to never take him seriously.

    But by all means, continue to engage him in conversation. It provides me with pages of hilarious content.

  • #1212025

    lightbrite
    Participant

    “…wouldn’t the roshei yeshiva and rabbonim, who I am sure know what goes on and are involved in their talmidim’s and children’s dating, say something and put a stop to it? If they haven’t, then maybe they feel it is necessary?”

    Maybe they have an idea but look the other way because they have bigger battles and it’s better to tolerate it than risk pushing people away from Yiddishkeit.

    They may be in a tough predicament. If they prevent young people, hormones and all, from dating as they currently do, then their talmidim may grow resentful.

    And/or, imposing rules on bochurim may also close the channel of communication between them and the talmidim, which may also be detrimental for them in the long run.

    Maybe that’s also why teaching women tznius is so critical. More so than ever, they may have to be the direct voice of opposition.

    Though surely I cannot generalize about rosh yeshivot and rabbonim.

    I wonder if it’s like how people go to doctor’s today when they’re sick and the doctor prescribes antibiotics out of pressure. If he/she doesn’t prescribe then maybe the patient may be unsatisfied and find another doctor who complies.

  • #1212026

    Person1
    Member

    Perhaps people don’t go to “interesting” date destinations because it’s fun. In fact I doubt it’s fun at all*. Maybe they do that because they haven’t managed to open up in the more conventional settings.

    In any case I have to say we’ve gone a long way from “is dating tznius” to “you shouldn’t go to Dave and Busters on your date”. Maybe if the OP had put it this way readers would have taken him more seriously. Than again, maybe being taken seriously was not the objective in the first place.

    As to the main discussion: maybe Schok and Kalus Rosh is understood to refer to a type of forbidden relationship or interaction, rather than forbidden acts (like eating chomez on pesach) If you crack jokes with a female worker in your office, that’s a very different kind of interaction than making the same jokes with someone whom you consider marying in three monthes. I suspect that if someone can’t see that they have never been on a chareidi date.

    * Personally I don’t really find dating to be fun, unless you get married at the end. It’s a very short lives fun in any case.

  • #1212027

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Benignuman – first of all, I am impressed by your saying that you don’t mean to pick on me. I think that’s a first for the Coffee Room (and it’s not like you then went to say anything particularly offensive.)

    I think you missed my point somewhere. I had been somewhat offended by a comment someone had made criticizing the way I date. I thought that was somewhat hypocritical (amongst other things). There is a lot less “schok and kalus rosh” on my dates than there is in the CR. You yourself said that you wouldn’t consider Yeshivish dating to be “schok and kalus rosh”.

    And I have been told that I should date in more casual ways than I do by people who are more qualified to be giving aitza than the people here are.

    One of the Gedolei Hador told me that I should be going to singles’ events. He said he was at a chasuna once and he had 20 boys lining up on one side of the mechitza and 20 girls lining up on other to get brachos for him, and he was like, “Why are you talking to me? You should be talking to each other.”

    In terms of halacha, my understanding of the halacha is that it is a halacha (not a chumra) that men and women are not allowed to talk to each other more than necessary. The reason that it is what I call a “grey area of halacha” is that there is no clear definition of “more than necessary”, since this would very much depend on the individual and his/her situation. For example, I feel that personally, for me, posting in the CR is something necessary right now. And for me, it may be necessary to go out more than 4 times even though it might not be for someone else. And I may need to do something other than sit in a hotel lobby on a date. I don’t really know yet and I guess I won’t know till I meet my zivug, IY”H. But if it turns out that I need to do so, then I have a chiyuv to do so even if it’s not how I’m used to doing things.

  • #1212028

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Person1 +1! For your entire post, but especially the first paragraph. That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Especially if people see that the regular way of dating hasn’t worked, then they may need to do something different.

    And by different, I mean going to the zoo or playing a board game and going out more than 4 times if they need to.

    And btw, what are Dave & Busters and Chelsea Piers?

  • #1212029

    Joseph
    Participant

    I believe benignuman’s point that the Roshei Yeshiva do not know what goes on typical dates (outside of the very Yeshivish) is accurate. I also think lightbrite’s point that the roshei yeshiva realize that with certain segments of people they are facing an uphill battle fighting this scourge is also true. Additionally I think that the roshei yeshiva do talk about this problem to a large extent, where they think they can be a positive influence on the bochorim. Unfortunately while they are more successful on the very yeshivish, as benignuman pointed out, they are less successful with the less than very yeshivish.

  • #1212030

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Person1 :”* Personally I don’t really find dating to be fun, unless you get married at the end.”

    + 1,000! Torture would probably be a better word.

  • #1212031

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lilmod, which godol was that?

    Chelsea Piers is a sports arena where they have bowling and some other sporting activities. The other place I haven’t heard of.

  • #1212032

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    With regard to happy marriages and reducing divorces, I think one’s attitude and conduct after the chuppa is much more important than how many dates happened beforehand, or what kind of dates, etc. There is no magical formula to plug in before a marriage that guarantees success. That’s a fairy tale, and all fairy tales end before the real love story begins. A spouse must wake up each and every morning and actively decide to be committed to his/her marriage.

  • #1212033

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I deliberately didn’t say his name because I didn’t think it would be right to quote him by name in such a public forum without permission. But he’s someone whom you (and I think everyone) would accept.

  • #1212034

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Big Golem:

    “So let’s assume that it is in fact true. Does fewer divorces automatically mean happier marriages?”

    no not necessarily. I was commenting on Joseph’s comment. He specified both – happier marriages and fewer divorces. My understanding was that he was listing both as two different things, both of which SEEM to be found more often in the Yeshivish world (not that one is necessarily proof of the other). When I agreed with him, that is what I was agreeing with.

    “lilmod ulelamaid- I don’t think anyone has numbers to back it up. It’s an assumption we all make because it’s something we want to believe is true. The frummer we are = the more restrictive the dating is = less divorce.”

    I wasn’t basing it on that. I was mainly basing it on what I see. Additionally, I do think that people who are more “Yeshivish” the way I define the term would be more likely to have better marriages (in general). I wasn’t saying that this is because the way they date is more restrictive. I was simply saying that I don’t think it makes sense to attribute the rise in divorce to the Yeshivish method of dating (which doesn’t mean that it’s impossible that there can be improvements made in it). My main point was really this last one – that was the context of my statements.

  • #1212035

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Avrum in MD – while there is a lot of truth to what you’re saying, the question is how to get to that point (of being married) and different people need different things.

  • #1212036

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Chelsea Piers is a sports arena where they have bowling and some other sporting activities. The other place I haven’t heard of.”

    Thanks for answering. Sounds like fun – too bad it’s in the US and I can’t go there.

  • #1212037

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    lilmod ulelamaid,

    the question is how to get to that point (of being married) and different people need different things.

    I agree. My post was more in response to the notion bandied about in this thread that’s tangential to the OP, that there is a strong relationship between the number or type of dates and the health of the subsequent marriage.

  • #1212038

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    benignuman: “I have hard time believing that any Rosh Yeshiva would tell his talmid that it is mutar to take a girl to Dave & Busters or Chelsea Piers.”

    because of tznius or because these places are not the right environment for a yeshiva boy to be in at all? I remember a date I had a long time ago when the boy took me to a pool place. It was a horrible place filled with people I did not want to be around, I felt so uncomfortable, nor was I impressed when my date happily showed off his pool playing skills but didn’t care at all that I had no idea how to even hold the stick.

  • #1212039

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant
  • #1212040

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    lightbrite: “Maybe they have an idea but look the other way because they have bigger battles and it’s better to tolerate it than risk pushing people away from Yiddishkeit.”

    If this is really an issue of potential arayos, and big tznius concerns, they would not be looking away. I don’t think yeshiva bochurim will be pushed away from Yiddishkeit if they couldn’t go out bowling with a date.

    “They may be in a tough predicament. If they prevent young people, hormones and all, from dating as they currently do, then their talmidim may grow resentful.”

    Yet there are plenty of rules that the rabbonim set up for during the engagement, as to frequency and purpose of seeing each other. The bochurim understand that these rules are set up for a very good reason.

    LB, from your comment, I am not sure how much experience you have with Yeshiva style dating. whether it is in a lounge or a park or the zoo or someone’s living room, it is by its nature formal. The point of a more relaxed setting or a fun date is to get the person to feel more comfortable being him/herself, to facilitate meaningful conversation. It is not an allowance to hormones, and any date that is, is definitely not a tznius one and would never be sanctioned by the rabbonim.

  • #1212042

    benignuman
    Participant

    Person 1,

    I would recommend looking up the Shulchan Aruch, and the Rambam it is based on to see if you pshat in “schok and kalus rosh” works. Additionally, the same terminology is used by ???? ???, which is certainly not a forbidden relationship.

    Lilmod,

    Not talking to women more than necessary is based on the Mishna in Avos “Al tarbeh sicha im ha’isha.” But that, like many things in Avos, is understood as a midas chasidus or good religious advice. It is not brought down in halacha and is, as you said a “grey area.” Schok and Kalus Rosh are types of talking/playing/interacting that are forbidden with arayos. While there is some grey on the margins of what is considered Schok and Kalus Rosh, it seems to me that many boys dating even from good yeshivos go well over the grey line into clearly prohibited areas.

    Dave & Busters is an arcade/bar/poolhall for classier clientel then a typical arcade/bar/poolhall.

  • #1212043

    benignuman
    Participant

    WinnieThePooh,

    Once against “tznius” is not the right word to use here. A Rosh Yeshiva, if he knew what those places are, would not tell a talmud it was mutar because the whole purpose of such places is schok, which is asur to engage in with the girl.

    You might be right that he would also tell him that it is not the right environment for a Yeshiva boy altogether (although that is a “grey area”), but from the fact that so many Yeshiva boys, from top yeshivos, take girls there on dates, tells you that either the Rosh Yeshiva don’t know what these places are, don’t know that their boys are going there, or are looking the other way because of “mutav sheyiyu shogagim.”

  • #1212044

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Dave & Busters is like Chuck E Cheese for adults.

    From what I remember from a one-time decade ago, you can play games and video games, collect tickets to exchange for prizes.

    Imho, it was loud, distracting, and triangulated any attempt at personal conversation.

    On the flipside, maybe because it is more casual, requires movement and limited bursts of attention, maybe it helps time pass quicker compared to a date that may be awkward and long if there was no chemistry. It at least makes for a good excuse to go to such a venue.

    I have never been a yeshiva bochur who was faced with going on a series of dates. Maybe they take the dates that they still like after D&B someplace where they can get to know each other better.

    Also… maybe the bochurim want to see the girl in action. See how they work together to pick an activity, respond to rejection if they lose, etc things that may occur organically in such a setting.

  • #1212045

    BigGolem
    Participant

    benignuman- if so many of the Rosh Yeshiva are not protesting loudly to choice of dating venues, maybe there is simply nothing wrong with those venues at all.

  • #1212046

    Joseph
    Participant

    BG, benignuman already addressed your point several ways. One was that the roshei yeshiva may well be unaware of where the bochorim are taking their dates to. Not everyone runs their dating options through their rosh yeshiva. Or they may not be aware what “activities” are available at specific dating venue. Do you always ask your rosh yeshiva if a particular dating venue is kosher? (You should.) Furthermore, the roshei yeshiva DO protest various dating activities, including venues. Who said they don’t?

  • #1212047

    benignuman
    Participant

    BigGolem,

    I should make clear that my issue is not with the venues themselves as much as what dates do at those venues. Theoretically, one could just walk around Chelsea Piers and have serious conversations without playing together. But normally the dates play together at these venues (and others) in order to have fun and laugh together; which is forbidden by Chazal.

    I don’t think that most boys even know that this is problem. Very few Yeshiva bochurim have ever learned Even HaEzer 21:1 and/or realized that the girls they are dating have the status of arayos. Remember, they don’t usually learn hilchos niddah until after they are engaged.

  • #1212048

    Theoretically, one could just walk around Chelsea Piers and have serious conversations without playing together. But normally the dates play together at these venues (and others) in order to have fun and laugh together; which is forbidden by Chazal.

    What definition are you using for “???? and ???? ???”, and from where are you sourcing it?

  • #1212049

    benignuman
    Participant

    I am understanding “???? and ???? ???” as meaning flirtatious talking or behavior (???? ???) and playing or having fun in a non-platonic manner (“????”).

    I am sourcing it primarily from the meforshim on Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 195:1 and Avos 3:13 and Rabbeinu Yonah thereon. My understanding of kalos rosh also comes from the way Rav Moshe uses it when discussing the need for a mechitza.

  • #1212050

    I am understanding “???? and ???? ???” as meaning flirtatious talking or behavior (???? ???) and playing or having fun in a non-platonic manner (“????”).

    I agree (YD 195:1 was my source as well, especially the Shach there). Why do you assume that playing a game is not “platonic” in nature or is flirtatious? I can play a game with Ittisa and other members of my/her family (who are certainly Ervah, even without Niddah) in a platonic fashion. Fun does not equal “???? and ???? ???”.

    Or are we assuming the worst of most Bochrim?

    P.S. Do you know which Shailah Rav MOshe discusses it? Thanks.

  • #1212051

    ccguy
    Member

    I’m not sure how this plays into this but I’ve asked my Rebbe regarding complimenting the girls on dates and such because I was concerned that it might be inappropriate/assur. His response was “do what’s normal and expected of you”. Regarding how many times to go out during the engagement period, he said every person is different and there isn’t a set rule. Do what feels right. Basically do whatever is normal and be sensitive to the girls needs because there is no one size fits all. If this was a clear cut assur I’m sure my Rebbe wouldn’t have told me that. This is a gray area which depends on the circumstances. I think you could apply this to much of the conversation above.

    (My Rebbe is not from cc so dont make any assumptions)

  • #1212052

    benignuman
    Participant

    GAW,

    It seems to me that dating by definition is non-platonic activity. The whole purpose of dating is to find someone to marry and to create a non-platonic relationship. I agree that fun does not equal ????, but playing together in the context of dating does.

    I don’t know where the teshuva is off-hand. If I have time I will look it up tonight.

  • #1212053

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Benignuman: “GAW, It seems to me that dating by definition is non-platonic activity.”

    Which is exactly why I have an issue with the following two sentences:

    “and playing or having fun in a non-platonic manner (“????”).”

    “… because the whole purpose of such places is schok, which is asur to engage in with the girl.”

    If: A. Schok = having fun in a non-platonic manner

    and B. A date by definition is non-platonic.

    Then,C: it can’t be assur to have “schok” on a date.

    The whole idea of a date is that it’s not platonic, so it has to be okay to have a non-platonic relationship for the purpose of marriage. Unless you think that everyone’s parents should marry them off and no one should date at all, but the Gedolim are certainly not saying that (and they do know that people date even if they don’t know exactly what they do on dates).

    Also, I was always taught that “there’s no such thing as a platonic relationship” which is why men and women are not allowed to talk to each other more than necessary (but if it’s necessary it’s allowed even though it can’t be platonic).

  • #1212054

    you guys have it all wrong. your ideas are misconstrued. the way you approach shidduchim is by falling in love with that perfect soul that hashem set aside for you from birth. however it happens is perfectly fine.

  • #1212055

    ¡RebYidd23!
    Participant

    So, for example if I meet someone and we get to know each other while we are both beating my neighbor with live chickens from the nearby poultry market?

  • #1212056

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Hashkafahmaster, And what if it happens in a way that is clearly completely assur (as opposed to what’s being discussed in this thread which doesn’t necessarily fall in that category)?

    The ends doesn’t always justify the means.

  • #1212058

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ?

  • #1212059

    Abba_S
    Participant

    LU- Hashkafahmaster, And what if it happens in a way that is clearly completely assur (as opposed to what’s being discussed in this thread which doesn’t necessarily fall in that category)?

    The ends doesn’t always justify the means.

    I think what is meant is that since dating is needed to get married and marriage is a prerequisite for having children which is a Mitzvah and since someone doing a Mitzvah will not be harmed. Similarly someone doing a prerequisite for a mitzvah (dating) wouldn’t be harmed. Or he may hold since the boy is looking for his rib it might be a case of Ha Shovas Aviadah which is also a Mitzvah and there is no assur.

    The question is does a positive commandment override a negative commandment in this case?

  • #1212060

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “The question is does a positive commandment override a negative commandment in this case?”

    You’re never allowed to. At least not in the way that you’re talking about. It would be a “Mitzvah haba al yedei aveirah” and it’s assur, like using a stolen Lulav.

    In any case, the concept doesn’t even apply here. Dating is not a Mitzvah in and of itself. It’s hishtadlus. It would be like working on Shabbos in order to earn a parnassah.

    Hishtadlus is not allowed to be done by means of an aveirah.

    In terms of your first paragraph, the implication is that one is allowed to deliberately commit an aveirah for the purpose of finding one’s zivug. That has nothing to do with “shiluchei Mitzvah ainan nizokin”.

  • #1212061

    Person1
    Member

    LU:”If: A. Schok = having fun in a non-platonic manner

    and B. A date by definition is non-platonic.

    Then,C: it can’t be assur to have “schok” on a date.”

    Thank you! Exactly what I thought. And I happen to think points A and B to be true, which makes C true as well.

  • #1212062

    It seems to me that dating by definition is non-platonic activity. The whole purpose of dating is to find someone to marry and to create a non-platonic relationship. I agree that fun does not equal ????, but playing together in the context of dating does.

    The idea of dating is to create a relationship, not a “relations”ual relationship. Just because the end result will be marriage does not make the current relationship a “relations”ual relationship.

    So it seems my argument is with point “B”, that a date by definition is not platonic. One can have fun and build a close relationship (as recommended by many Rabbonim) without flirting.

    edited

  • #1212063

    “I actually heard that there was a Rav who said that people should go out at least 8 times

    Rav M Bick said it ,over 4+ decades ago

  • #1212065

    Was Tu B’Av (Girls going out) Tznius?

  • #1212066

    benignuman
    Participant

    “If: A. Schok = having fun in a non-platonic manner

    and B. A date by definition is non-platonic.

    Then,C: it can’t be assur to have “schok” on a date.”

    C does not follow from the premises A & B. Creating a non-platonic relationship is not the issur. The gezeira is having fun/playing together in a non-platonic way or flirting because such activities are ??????? ?????.

  • #1212067

    benignuman
    Participant

    GAW,

    I hear your chiluk. Maybe that works. I will think about it.

    It is Time,

    The girls going out on Tu B’A (and Yom Kippur) were presumably penuyos tohoros (because in those days even single girls were toivel), which our girls are not. The gezeira only applies to arayos.

  • #1212068

    The girls going out on Tu B’A (and Yom Kippur) were presumably penuyos tohoros (because in those days even single girls were toivel), which our girls are not.

    If Chazal cared enough to make the girls borrow clothing not to embarrass those who did not have, Kal V’Chomer they were careful not to embarrass the girls who were Niddos and identify them to their peers and townspeople.

  • #1212069

    benignuman
    Participant

    GAW,

    In those days everyone would wear different clothing when they were Niddos. People needed to know for tumah and tahara. See, e.g., Kiddushin 80a, Rashi d”h ?????? ??? ?????????. Therefore there would have been no additional embarrassment.

  • #1212070

    Abba_S
    Participant

    GAW- If Chazal cared enough to make the girls borrow clothing not to embarrass those who did not have, Kal V’Chomer they were careful not to embarrass the girls who were Niddos and identify them to their peers and townspeople.

    As long as a female hasn’t been immersed in a Mikvah she remains a Niddah. Since single females now a days only go to the Mikvah right before their marriage they should all be considered a Niddahs. Besides who says in those day the Niddahs danced on the 15th of Av maybe they didn’t participate.

    LU- “The question is does a positive commandment override a negative commandment in this case?”

    You’re never allowed to.”

    An example is Yebom. Where the commandment to marry his brother’s wife if their was no child overrides, the prohibition of not marrying your brother’s wife even though the negative commandment has Koras, which is a serious punishment. Your Issur is only a takonah, a rabbinic prohibition and was it even instituted during dating for marriage purposes. If there really was a prohibition how come there are Kol Korah against concerts but none against dating.

  • #1212071

    Person1
    Member

    Thanks for all the upvotes LU. Didn’t find time until now.

  • #1212073

    @lilmod the ends would definitely justify the means when you end up with that perfect woman. dating should be taken seriously and done with caution however in order to find that true match you have to go and get her.

  • #1212074

    lightbrite
    Participant

    The Chabad Rebbe of blessed memory said that a person needs to look for one’second beshert like looking for a lost object.

    Sometimes for me that means turning things around and scattering what was once organized around the room. It could mean calling people to ask if they saw it. Describing it to people. Taking time from other matters just to keep looking. Asking others to help search.

    All of which blur the boundaries of what was otherwise orderly and normal.

    The question is whether or not this is mutter and tznius. Maybe it is similar to asking if it’s okay to throw stuff around the room and make a mess. Normally no. It’s disrespectful and a waste of time. Perhaps here HM613’s point is valid.

    Meanwhile it is important to note that there is no perfect woman or man. Maybe someone who is perfectly imperfect for someone else and vice versa.

  • #1212075

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Person1 – thank you for sticking up for me at the beginning of the thread. Sorry I didn’t say anything until now.

    I pretty much stopped sticking up for myself once I realized there was no point, but I appreciate it when others do it for me (especially when I feel like I can’t do it for myself).

  • #1212076

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Hashkafamaster, your last post kind of contradicts this post:

    the shidduch system

    It also contradicts every single mussar sefer, halacha sefer and common sense. So if I kill someone in order to find the perfect man, it’s ok? That would be one way to solve the shidduch crisis.

  • #1212077

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Aww LU! ? You are awesome. Hope you always feel confident about posting. I love your posts.

    In your response to HM613, I can see how doing whatever it takes to find one’s soulmate has limits according to Torah.

    Breaking into someone else’s house to search for lost keys is not exactly what the Rebbe meant when he encouraged people to search tirelessly for their besherts.

  • #1212078

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB- I am considering stopping soon.

  • #1212079

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Thanks LB! You’re the best!

  • #1212080

    lightbrite
    Participant

    LU: Stopping what?

  • #1212081

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    posting here. I would have stopped already last night, but there are reasons why I may not be able to stop until the end of the week.

  • #1212082

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Awwww. You’ll be missed.

    I’ve considered too. Seriously. For me to invest more time seeking community and acceptance IRL.

  • #1212083

    lightbrite
    Participant

    Thing is that for me, before and currently, the CR has helped and helps me a lot. To grow as a person.

    The person I was when I first started posting is a lot more confident today, in speaking my mind and growing in Yiddishkeit, thanks to the CR and CR posters.

    ********************

    LU: Honor yourself so you can honor Hashem ?

    If it’s not good for you then def do what is best for you. Your presence here will still be felt through your former posts. New posters hopefully will find strength in them too.

    Sometimes we are someplace for a reason and when it’s time we have someplace else to be. You are always welcome here now and in the future.

  • #1212084

    ¡RebYidd23!
    Participant

    Posting here is not all or nothing. You can post frequently or infrequently.

  • #1212085

    lightbrite
    Participant

    RebYidd23 +1

  • #1212086

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    There’s a beautiful story I read that I’d like to relate soon, about this topic. ??”? when I have more time.

  • #1212087

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Video of Interest: Oorah’s Founder, Rabbi Chaim Mintz Is Asked ‘Can I Go On A Date With A Minivan?’

    I thought those that posted on this site would find this interesting.

    Please note: Rav Chaim Mintz did not even suggest that it might be a problem to be driving with a girl on a date.

  • #1212088

    Joseph
    Participant

    Is Oorah’s founder a posek? A baal hashkafa?

  • #1212089

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Probably more than you are (no offense).

    In any case, I didn’t really mean it as proof that one can’t decide that the way dating is done is problematic and should be changed.

    The arguments would be:

    1. When asked a question, I think the general rule is that you are supposed to respond to what is being asked and not to what is not being asked. Like the ignorant 14 year old baal teshuva who asked his Rav if he’s allowed to go to dances during the Nine Days and was simply told “no”. He went to Yeshiva the next year and eventually figured out for himself that it’s always assur.

    2. As I think was already said (maybe by you?), the Rabbanim don’t come out against everything; sometimes we are supposed to figure things out for ourselves. Especially if we are not talking about a halachic issue.

  • #1212090

    Little Froggie
    Participant
  • #1212091

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Thank you for sharing. I think you are now disqualified from your site. Actually, you always were.

  • #1212092

    lightbrite
    Participant

    LA +1

  • #1212093

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    who’s LA?

  • #1212094

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Probably Little me. With half a typo

  • #1212095

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I was trying to figure out if it was meant to be LF or LU.

  • #1212096

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LF would have made more sense, but I wanted to check

  • #1212097

    Joseph
    Participant

    If the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, in both Eretz Yisroel and America, came out with a Kol Korei that Bnei Torah and Bas Yisroels should not date but rather should conduct shidduch meetings exclusively in the parents homes or otherwise under direct parental supervision or nearby presence, how would the hamon hoam react?

  • #1212098

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    It’s not going to happen. At best they would recommend it, but they wouldn’t demand it from everyone. It’s not realistic, and it’s not applicable for everyone. It’s not applicable for most or many older singles, people from Modern Orthodox families or baalei teshuva or anyone who is from the type of family that would make such a thing awkward.

    Additionally, until now I haven’t heard anyone suggest that there is any problem with the current system. And with the shidduch crisis and divorce crisis, I don’t think that making dating more formal and constrained than it already is is going to help.

    I think if anything, the solution to those issues is to make dating more casual and certainly not less so. I read an article about how the bas kol that comes out telling people who their zivug is something that the person is supposed to hear inside themselves when they meet their zivug but the problem is that there are too many people telling them what to do so they are not able to hear it.

    I think there is a lot of truth to that. I know a family that has a bunch of older single daughters. The mother told me once years ago that she feels a bit guilty because one of her daughters was once going out with someone whom she actually liked and she made her stop going out with him because he only learned half a day. This happened many years ago and both the girl and all of her sisters who were single at the time are still single and they are all in their 30’s or 40’s. I think that changing the system to the way you are suggesting would exacerbate some of these problems.

    I could hear where it might make sense to change certain aspects of the dating system (like the part about his picking her up in a car as was discussed in this thread), but I don’t think that everyone should start having sit-ins.

    I’m curious as to why you feel so strongly about it. Are there things that you’ve seen or heard that made you feel this way? Why is it such a big deal to meet in a hotel lobby?

  • #1212099

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    There is something I have been wondering about. When I first started dating, I was super-uncomfortable, having basically never spoken to a boy in my life. I am sure that there must be many others who feel this way.

    Who are all these people engaging in “schok and kalus rosh” on dates? Does this really happen or is this an assumption being made? Who are you talking about? Are these modern boys and girls? I find it hard to imagine that the average Yeshivish Yeshiva Bochur or Bais Yaakov girl is so comfortable going out with members of the opposite gender that that is a problem. Am I very naive? Are we talking about a completely different type?

  • #1212100

    benignuman
    Participant

    Lilmod,

    From what I have seen, early dating is as you describe. But as the couple become more relaxed with each other, and/or as the individuals have dated more people, things change. Yes, the less yeshivish you get the worse the problem becomes, but even with BMG boys schok (as I defined it earlier) is the norm not the exception for later dates.

    I don’t think these Yeshiva boys and Bais Yakov girls think they are doing anything wrong. They are simply not informed.

  • #1212101

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Benignuman, thanks for clarifying. I have a lot to say when I have time to think about it, but I appreciate your clarification because I was confused about that.

    I don’t think that Joseph is talking about the exact same thing as you. He seems to think that everyone should start having b’shows, which does not follow from what you are saying.

  • #1212102

    lilmod ulelamaid,

    Same here

    “There is something I have been wondering about. When I first started dating, I was super-uncomfortable, having basically” rarely spoken to a girl

  • #1212103

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    IITFT – Thanks for the confirmation! +1

  • #1212106

    lilmod ulelamaid

    Would you explain how you managed?

  • #1212107

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    My first two dates were horrible. After that, I was fine. Meaning, I wasn’t uncomfortable, and I had no problem sitting there making conversation. But it was kind of like the same way that I would have no problem sitting and making conversation with a wall.

  • #1212108

    TruthWins
    Member

    When our communities sustain an environment that doesn’t allow for any interaction between the two sexes, we are ultimately causing boys and girls to be so completely uncomfortable with each other that the only method that allows them some level of productive interaction is when they’re huddled in the parents’ dining room, with their parents with them.

    We continue this trend even once they’re engaged: We discourage too much interaction between them, limit how often they can see each other, and then force an exuberant wedding on them so they don’t have to focus on each other, but rather, the beautiful venue, food, flowers, and untold amounts of needless gashmius. We then continue to distract them from each other for the next week with Sheva Brachos, until finally, reality sets in, and they’re forced to learn how to interact and live together. For some, it’s too late.

  • #1212109

    For some, it’s too late.

    The solution is NOT to let them hang out like Perutzim before Kiddushin. If you want to argue that they need to be taught how to live with others and how to budget, I’m all ears.

  • #1212110

    TruthWins
    Member

    “The solution is NOT to let them hang out like Perutzim before Kiddushin.”

    GAW, did my post imply that anywhere? Of course I don’t endorse that as a solution.

    In reality, there is no one correct method, because people are wired differently. Some need significant interaction and a certain level of comfort before committing to a lifelong relationship. Others can just jump right in and work it out themselves after marriage.

    The solution is to know yourself, know what works best for you, and that the people whom you trust and depend on should empower you to follow through with it, and not force you into using a method that you aren’t comfortable with.

  • #1212111

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “The solution is NOT to let them hang out like Perutzim before Kiddushin.”

    +1 (although personally, I don’t think that going bowling counts as “hanging out like perutzim”).

  • #1212112

    When wedding celebrations started having separate seating as de rigueur

    Rav Joseph Breuer was perturbed .He asked'”How else are young men and young ladies going to meet “

    Separate seating today is proper and good ,but probably there should be a mixed smorgasbord or something for those in their 20s & ready for shidduchim in a another room

  • #1212113

    typo an another

  • #1212115

    In reality, there is no one correct method, because people are wired differently. Some need significant interaction and a certain level of comfort before committing to a lifelong relationship. Others can just jump right in and work it out themselves after marriage.

    The solution is to know yourself, know what works best for you, and that the people whom you trust and depend on should empower you to follow through with it, and not force you into using a method that you aren’t comfortable with.

    As long as it is L’Toeles and not S’chok, I have no issues. You seemed to bring up the old argument that boys need to interact with girls in order to be comfortable when dating, which is hogwash.

  • #1212117

    TruthWins
    Member

    “As long as it is L’Toeles and not S’chok, I have no issues.”

    Some people need to know they can laugh and joke together in order to have a connection. In which case it is l’toeles.

    “boys need to interact with girls in order to be comfortable when dating, which is hogwash.”

    My point is that many boys and girls have an extremely difficult time being open and engaging in normal dialogue on dates because they’ve been hardwired to repel exactly that. For them, a potentially more constructive option is to have it all “set up” in their parents’ dining room beforehand.

    So on your point, I’m not suggesting they need to interact with the opposite sex in order to be more comfortable on dates. I’m suggesting that they at least understand HOW to have such interaction when the proper time comes, and realize the following:

    1. Your date is not to be treated or talked to the way you treat and talk to your buddies.

    2. Your date is of the opposite sex, and therefore, you should understand that you will see things differently. Internalize and respect that.

  • #1212118

    For all of you who are advocating essentially only having beshows, did you have one? Or do you plan to have one when you start dating? If you didn’t and don’t plan to, then stop advocating for it. Very simple. You just sound delusional and hypocritical- if you are saying that the current dating system is wrong and yet you’re not willing to do what you think is right.

    Either follow through with what you’re saying is right or please stop talking.

  • #1212119

    Some people need to know they can laugh and joke together in order to have a connection. In which case it is l’toeles.

    Laughing and joking and fun is not the “S’chok V’Kalas Rosh” that we are discussing. Please see earlier in the thread.

    Is Dating Tznius?

    So on your point, I’m not suggesting they need to interact with the opposite sex in order to be more comfortable on dates. I’m suggesting that they at least understand HOW to have such interaction when the proper time comes, and realize the following:

    1. Your date is not to be treated or talked to the way you treat and talk to your buddies.

    2. Your date is of the opposite sex, and therefore, you should understand that you will see things differently. Internalize and respect that.

    So you believe the real problem is that boys are not getting appropriate hadracha from either their parents or their Yeshiva.

  • #1212120

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Laughing and joking and fun is not the “S’chok V’Kalas Rosh” that we are discussing.”

    Actually, I thought that was what Benignuman had been talking about. I also thought that you had agreed with him, but apparently I was wrong about that.

    If that’s not what he meant, I wish he would clarify. I thought that he was saying that having fun on a date is by definition “s’chok v’kalus rosh”, and I thought the discussion here was about whether or not it’s okay to have fun on a date as opposed to just sitting in your parents’ living room having a boring conversation.

    Not that there is anything at all wrong with the latter if it works for people, but it seems to me that there are people for whom it doesn’t work.

    How exactly are you defining “schok v’kalus rosh” if that’s not what you meant?

  • #1212121

    How exactly are you defining “schok v’kalus rosh” if that’s not what you meant?

    Is Dating Tznius?

    It has to be flirtatious. As pointed out there, I can play a game with my SIL (who is a woman) and have fun, even laugh, but not be flirtatious.

  • #1212122

    TruthWins
    Member

    “So you believe the real problem is that boys are not getting appropriate hadracha from either their parents or their Yeshiva.”

    Correct. What they are getting instead is an unequivocal message that having any interaction with women is wrong on all accounts (save, perhaps, for immediate family), and then they are suddenly thrust into a world of dating where they are expected to have meaningful and productive conversation with a woman they don’t know.

  • #1212123

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Gavra at Work – thanks for clarifying. I don’t think that’s what Benignuman was saying though. He seemed to be saying that just having fun and/or laughing on a date were problematic. He also seemed to think that what he is talking about is something common amongst typical Yeshivish youth, and I don’t think these people flirt.

    And Joseph was talking about how everyone should have b’shows.

  • #1212124

    He seemed to be saying that just having fun and/or laughing on a date were problematic.

    And Benignuman was Modeh that I may have a point. See earlier in the thread.

    His concern that a couple will flirt once they know they are getting married.

    I can’t speak for your doppelganger Joseph 🙂

  • #1212125

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    GAW, Benignuman wrote: “From what I have seen, early dating is as you describe. But as the couple become more relaxed with each other, and/or as the individuals have dated more people, things change. Yes, the less yeshivish you get the worse the problem becomes, but even with BMG boys schok (as I defined it earlier) is the norm not the exception for later dates.”

    He is not only talking about once they know they are getting married. And either way, I can’t imagine that he thinks that flirting is the norm for typical seriously-Yeshivish youth.

    Unless he is defining flirting very differently than I would. Maybe he is defining flirting as any kind of “laughing and having fun” in which case we are back to Truth Wins and my contention that some people need the “laughing and having fun” before they can get engaged/married. And I think this is particularly true for older singles.

  • #1212126

    kitov
    Participant

    On the subject of dating.

    First we have to admit that yichud is prohibited.

    There can be no lieniency on this point.

    Furthermore the prohibition of yichud dating is veharag Val yavor.

    We have to withdraw from this type of dating as soon as possible.

    Having made that point it’s important to note that there is a shiduch crises going on and we need to find solutions before it gets worse.

    There are kosher dating alternatives for our generation.

    I believe speed dating events organized and supervised by our rabbinical leadership can solve the problem.

  • #1212128

    kitov
    Participant

    Modern technology is also a solution.

    Men an woman can hold video conferences.

    Woman dressed modestly of course

    And talk as long as they want untill they are ready to take the next step.

    To marry after only a brief beshow.

    May end in a tragic divorce.

    No one should be hustled into a marriage before they know each other well.

    Those frumies who pressure people into quickie marriages should be put into chairim (excommunicated)

  • #1212129

    kitov
    Participant

    Someone said yeshives couples have fewer divorces.

    That maybe true but it doesn’t indicate these couples have happy marriages

    It may indicate these couples have unhappy marriages but are staying together for the sake of the children or the fact that divorce is often more painful then staying together.

    A Talmud chacham actions are more rational then emotional.

  • #1212130

    kitov
    Participant

    Stika kehoda ,if there is no rebuttal to my controversial statements then according to the Talmud I must be right.

  • #1212131

    Meno
    Participant

    “if there is no rebuttal to my controversial statements then according to the Talmud I must be right”

    Or people might be sleeping/getting ready for Shabbos. Don’t ask what I’m doing here.

  • #1212132

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Applying shtikah k’hodo’oh here makes even less sense than your other comments.

  • #1212133

    lightbrite
    Participant

    “Those frumies who pressure people into quickie marriages should be put into chairim (excommunicated)” (kitov)

    kitov: It’s not just certain individuals. It’s cultural pressure. It’s societal pressure to get married or else you cannot participate in x, y, z, aleph, and so on.

    Unless unmarried men in his community also wear tallis gadols, a man needs to otherwise be married to done one in shul.

    Not being married is a very obvious thing for Jewish men and women who want to be a part of a community. Being married opens one up to social and economical benefits.

    The people doing the pushing are just a reflection of the greater pressure to be coupled up and have this Jewish life of family and children to get to the next level.

    At least that’s how I see it.

  • #1212134

    lightbrite
    Participant

    *don

  • #1212135

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Or people might be sleeping/getting ready for Shabbos.”

    Or keeping Shabbos, and then sleeping through the Taanis.

  • #1212136

    benignuman
    Participant

    To be clear “schok” and “kalus rosh” are two different, but related, things.

    In my understanding “kalus rosh” means “flirtatious talking or behavior.”

    In my understanding “schok” means having fun or laughing together in a non-platonic manner.

    While I fear that kalus rosh is problem particularly in the post-engagement stage, my primary concern is with the schok that goes on after the first few dates when the couple start trying to have fun together. It seems to me that “having fun together” on a date is by definition schok because the purpose of the fun is to create and bolster a non-platonic relationship (unlike playing ping-pong with your sister-in-law).

    What I understood gavra-at-work to be arguing was that “schok” requires something beyond non-platonic, (i.e. something that would lead to a more immediate danger of issurei kares). I am not sure I buy the chiluk (are there any objective activities that are forbidden according to GAW because of schok? Does it all depend on the intent of the parties?).

  • #1212137

    benignuman – I’m using the Shach’s language of “Margilin L’Ervah” in YD 195. So yes, that does depend on intent in many scenarios. The source (Avos D’Rav Nassan) compares it to Chibuk V’Nishuk.

    Where I think we disagree is that having fun together is bolstering the “non-platonic”ness of the relationship, just because the relationship will culminate in a non-platonic fashion (hopefully). One can and should bolster the “platonic” aspect of a relationship even when they are married (during certain times .), and that doesn’t mean a couple can’t talk and laugh together as long is it is not “Margilin L’Ervah” (For example, one tells over something funny that their child did that day).

  • #1212138

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Where I think we disagree is that having fun together is bolstering the “non-platonic”ness of the relationship, just because the relationship will culminate in a non-platonic fashion (hopefully). One can and should bolster the “platonic” aspect of a relationship even when they are married (during certain times .)”

    I don’t think things are so black and white – that something either is completely platonic or non-platonic. I thought that both aspects are usually there. Even when one is “bolstering the “platonic” aspect of a relationship” it doesn’t mean that it the relationship (at those times) is completely platonic.

    The same would go with dating. I have always been told that any relationship between a male and female is by definition non-platonic which is also why I was under the impression that it is assur for men and women to talk to each other more than necessary. It doesn’t mean that it is completely non-platonic, but it is not completely platonic either (which would therefore make it non-platonic, since anything that is not completely platonic is non-platonic).

    I very distinctly remember one of my Rebbeim (someone who was a known Talmid Chacham) saying, “There is no such as a platonic relationship.”

  • #1212139

    benignuman
    Participant

    GAW,

    My understanding is that schok is assur because it is a type of activity that is margilin l’erva. It is a gezeira that applies to people even if they are certain that it won’t be margil them. (?????? ???????? ??????, ??????? ????????? ?????, ???????????? ????????? (Avos 3:13)). If a gezeira only applies to the action when it is undertaken with the intent of being margil l’erva, then just say it is assur to be margil l’erva. Remember chibuk v’nishuk with ishto niddah is assur even without any intent.

    The Shach is explaining kalus rosh with words. He is saying that if these are the types of words that are margilin l’erva, it is assur, regardless of any actual intent to be margil. I think you’re better argument is that this type of fun is objectively not schok. But that begs the question of what activities would constitute schok.

    With respect to married couples, because they are already married the are not trying to laugh and have fun together to strengthen (or create) their non-platonic relationship, they are just going about their regular day. But to go out on a date-night to an arcade b’es niddasa would be assur.

  • #1212140

    benignuman – That deals with activity. I strongly hesitate saying that playing a game is Margil L’Ervah by definition. The Tur/Shach is almost using the Mishna quoted to define ??????? ????????? ?????. I can do the same exact action with different people, and with some it would be ??????? ????????? ?????, others not. That shows it depends on “intent”. Using your example, I can play arcades with Ittisa, my daughter, my sister, my neighbor’s wife, a co-worker (male or female), or my son. Some are ???????????? ?????????, others not. You can’t say that it is (by definition) for a Niddah, but is not for a real Ervah (such as a sister-in-law).

    I brought the Shach to define the Dibbur. Once you agree that “laughing” is not “Schok”, you need to have a definition of what type of Dibbur is Assur, that which is “Margil”.

    LUL – Your point touches on a large Machlokes Rishonim with many Nafkei Mina in the Halachos of Tznius, Ervah, and Histaklus. We can start a new thread if you would like.

  • #1212141

    benignuman
    Participant

    GAW,

    The difference is not intent (subjective) but context (objective). Playing arcades with your sister-in-law on an outing with your wife and children there is not ???????, but playing the same arcades on an outing just the two of you would probably be schok. The difference isn’t the type of Erva but the context. Do you think that it is mutar to have a date-night at an arcade with ishto niddah? If not, how is a dating couple different?

    I believe that the “dibbur” in the Ramah and the Shach is going on Kalush Rosh and the point is that flirtatious talk with an Erva is assur even there is no actual intent to be margil. For example, some salesmen will give inappropriate compliments to female customers in an attempt to make a sale. That would still be kalus rosh.

  • #1212142

    The difference is not intent (subjective) but context (objective).

    I can agree with this. We then have the question if during dating/engagement the context is ??????? or Toeles.

    I believe that the “dibbur” in the Ramah and the Shach is going on Kalush Rosh

    So then please define ???????. You previously said “In my understanding “schok” means having fun or laughing together in a non-platonic manner.”

    How would you define a “non-platonic manner”, and is it automatically a “non-platonic manner” when dealing with an Ervah?

  • #1212143

    benignuman
    Participant

    A “non-platonic manner” is when the actions themselves or the context around them indicate that the purpose of this laughing and having fun is not just for the fun itself but to create, strengthen, or maintain a non-platonic relationship.

    To answer your question it is not automatically a “non-platonic manner” when dealing with an Ervah. It depends on the context as I described earlier.

  • #1212144

    A “non-platonic manner” is when the actions themselves or the context around them indicate that the purpose of this laughing and having fun is not just for the fun itself but to create, strengthen, or maintain a non-platonic relationship.

    And I’m not certain that is correct, only if the manner is not platonic (the Shulchan Aruch’s “Shema Yargil”), and not L’Toeles. It certainly could be, depending on the situation and context.

    Have a look at the Beiur HaGRA there in Yoreh Deyah.

  • #1212145

    benignuman
    Participant

    GAW,

    I am not sure how to interpret that Biur HaGRA and the quote from Avos D’Reb Nosson. Chibuk v’Nishuk is an issur d’oraisa (according to the Shulchan Aruch) from the posuk of “lo sikrivu” but dibur, even of kalus rosh and schok, is only assur m’drabbanan. But the Avos D’Reb Nosson cited by the GRA conflates them.

    One of my main points in my original post on this subject, and where I thought the most contention would be, was that there is no heter of “l’toeles” for ??????? ????????? ?????. The “l’toeles” heter brought down in the Shulchan Aruch is specifically for histaklus.

    Note: You haven’t answered my question about date-night with ishto nidda.

  • #1212146

    benignuman – The GRA says Devarim Bteailim, so Toeles seems to possibly apply to Dibur as well.

    I’d need to Chazer the Harchakos to see exactly where the “Date night” comes from, perhaps the idea of making a Tiul?

  • #1212147

    LU,

    In which Country were did your dating experiences happen?

  • #1212150

    benignuman
    Participant

    Gavra,

    There is an issue of tiul that is brought down in the Terumas Hadeshen (and the Taz cites it) although it is unclear if the issue there is method of travel (shakey wagon) or the outing. But I would have said that this is an issue of schok that is certainly forbidden.

    However, I have just discovered a Sh”v’T Davar Moshe that makes the exact chiluk you made and allows a couple to play ping-pong b’es niddasa.

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=887

  • #1212151

    benignuman – Thank you. I will have to go through the Davar Moshe (Siman 66) thoroughly.

  • #1212152

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “LU,

    In which Country were did your dating experiences happen?”

    I’ve gone out in both EY and the US, but mainly EY. I am not sure which post you are referring to, and I no longer remember what I wrote. If you can provide a link to the post you are referring to, I can tell you which country I was referring to.

    Chances are I was talking about EY, since most of my dating was done here, and the first 14-15 years were only in EY.

  • #1212153

    LU,

    Is that where you came of age

    In which decade

  • #1212154

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I was living in EY when I started shidduchim. Basically the 90’s.

  • #1212155

    lightbrite
    Participant

    LU!!! Best decade of the universe! (in my life’s experience)

    Esp since neon crayons were all the rage.

  • #1212156

    LU,

    your description of your experiences then is far from unusual for many of both genders

    How did end up there?Your parents made aliya?

  • #1212157

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    not mine.

    The best years of my life were ages 0-13, and 38+. The quarter of a century between 13 and 38 was extremely difficult, and I am really glad it is over! But, at the same time, Baruch Hashem, I learned a lot of things during those years that are very helpful now, ad meah v’esrim at least, B’ezras Hashem. Both book learning and life lessons.

  • #1212158

    LU,

    It’s pretty rare for today’s younger generation to have the problems that we had,at least for North America .

    They grew up differently

    How did end up there?Your parents made aliya?

  • #1212159

    lightbrite
    Participant

    What problems did you have in North America that people in younger generations in North America don’t have now?

  • #1212160

    Git Meshige
    Participant

    Joseph, Do you think your Zeides and Elter Zeides would have approved of your Bitul Zman on the Internet for so many years? Think about it, how many hours and hours are wasted on these frivolous discussions when one could immerse themselves in Torah study and Chesed the way your Elter Zeides did.

  • #1212161

    lightbrite,

    That discussion would be too long

    For one, Our generation were likely more straightshooting and on the flipside more gullible

  • #1212162

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Actually, I think that this generation has a much harder time on the whole than ours did. Teenagers and kids certainly seem to have a much harder time.

    I think that my experiences were relatively unique. I do sometimes meet or hear about someone my age who also has had a hard time, but most people whom I know don’t seem to. Also, what I think was unique for me was that I had a hard time both during my teenagers years and during my 20’s and 30’s. Most people I know don’t seem to have had a hard time during all three of those decades.

    I’m sure there are others from my generation who have had a hard time, but my particular experiences were very unique for my peer group, and I don’t think they were at all typical.

    Just to give a few small examples: I am the only one from my high school class who is still single, and this has been the case for app. 20 years. I was the only one from my high school or seminary class whose parents made aliyah with them right after high school. I was also the only one who went to the seminary that I went to. And I was the only American from my high school or seminary who stayed in Israel after Shana Bet.

    These are just some of the more minor examples. There are many other things, but they are too personal.

    The point is that my experiences were very unique.

    I don’t mean to complain – I am Boruch Hashem, pretty happy with the way my life is right now, and I have a lot to thank Hashem for. I don’t necessarily mind being unique, and my life has also been unique in many positive ways. I have certainly had many opportunities in my life to do things that I really wanted to do and that few people have the opportunity to do. And I am very thankful for those things.

  • #1212163

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    It is time: what did I write that you thought was typical of our generation (and different than this one)? and/or typical of your own experiences?

  • #1212164

    LU,

    your dating difficulties

    lightbrite,

    The education system is much better than in our days (for boys at least)

  • #1212165

    Permit me to restate that:

    The education system is much better than in our days (for boys at least) IF the boy(s) are capable

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