December 11, 2016 3:36 am at 3:36 am #618811
We might never think about it, but really there are so many tznius pitfalls in dating. In the car alone. Walking at night alone with an unrelated girl. Talking alone, away from everyone, with an unrelated girl about sensitive and frivolous subjects.
Sure we can justify all this as being for tachlis. And of course there are heteirim to be found. But really our zeidas or elter-zeidas or elter-elter-zeidas, for those of us lucky enough to have an all frum yichus going all the way back to Avrohom Avinu, didn’t date. For thousands of years our zeidas father would work out a shidduch with the girl’s father and mazal tov! The boy and girl would briefly meet in a beshow type of meeting, and if there were no objections agree to get married, vzeh hu.
And we know that even today there are alternatives to the problems of dating. Hundreds of thousands of Yidden around the world got married without dating. They had a beshow, all in the tzniusdik confines of the parents home, and are married. The concept of frum Yidden dating isn’t much more than a hundred years old. And for most frum Yidden it started much more recent than even that.December 11, 2016 4:09 am at 4:09 am #1211884
Yes you’re right. Getting married via Craigslist ads (no photos allowed) would be way more tznius.December 11, 2016 4:14 am at 4:14 am #1211885
In EY, you don’t date by car usually. You usually meet in a hotel lobby – a very public place. You usually don’t go for a walk on the first date, and if you do, it’s in a very public area.
And, uh, personally, I don’t talk about sensitive and frivolous topics on dates.
If you’re a tznius person and you go out with tznius people, there shouldn’t be any problems.
I do agree that it would be great to have parents who could arrange things for me, and the chassidish way of doing things is great – but, it can only work if you’re from that type of society. There is a reason why different societies (within the Orthodox world) have different ways of dating.
Sociology is a complicated thing. When things are done a certain way in one society but not in another, it is usually because there are other things that are done in that society that make this thing possible in that society and not in others.
Someone from a Yeshivish society or a Modern Orthodox society can’t necessarily choose to do something the way it is done in Chassidish society and expect it to work.December 11, 2016 4:43 am at 4:43 am #1211886
Unfortunately no it is not.December 11, 2016 4:53 am at 4:53 am #1211887
Joseph how did you meet your wife?
You have children, correct?December 11, 2016 4:58 am at 4:58 am #1211889
I do hear your point; I just don’t think it’s practical or realistic. And, I haven’t noticed or heard of any problems coming up with dating (except for the fact that when you’re 18 or 19 and have never spoken to a boy before in your life, it’s really awkward and uncomfortable, but that just makes it less of an issue in terms of tznius).December 11, 2016 5:12 am at 5:12 am #1211890
lilmod ulelamaid – I have hung out with plenty of guys thats not the issue. The issue is that i really dont know what im looking for. So whoever they set me up with and as long as his a good jew and good person thats all im concerned with.December 11, 2016 7:48 am at 7:48 am #1211891
It looks like the end of the first post is missing:
This is why so many rabbonim and roshei yeshiva are urging their
mispallelim/talmidim not to date and use an alternative path instead.December 11, 2016 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #1211893
Almost as bad as marriageDecember 11, 2016 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #1211894
Joseph, have you ever been on a date?December 11, 2016 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1211895
Is being married tznius?
Hashem wants us to be, so yes it is.December 11, 2016 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1211897
It is muttar when married, whereas it isn’t beforehand. You can get married while avoiding engaging in non-permitted activities beforehand to reach marital status.December 11, 2016 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1211898
“Is being married tznius?”
That’s why I’m not married (j/k).December 11, 2016 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1211899
“Joseph how did you meet your wife?”
Curious about the answer to this.December 11, 2016 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1211900
Like how Yitzchok met Rivka.December 11, 2016 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1211901
Your father sent his servant to a well and she fed the donkeys water, and you didn’t even need to meet her, because you decided it was enough to know that she was a tzadeikis?
Wow, you’re lucky that your wife is such a tzadeikis!December 11, 2016 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1211902
Why, thank you!
(May I suggest you practice your hand at wells?)December 11, 2016 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1211903
Seriously, Joseph, what do you mean when you say it was like how Yitzchok met Rivka?December 11, 2016 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #1211904
I heard in the name of R’ Yaakov Kaminetzky TZATZAL that way shidduchim were done in Europe does not translate well to America as most girls did not attend yeshiva in Europe but were taught directly by thei mothers. In America they have yeshivos for girls and therefore the method of shidduchim had to change.December 11, 2016 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #1211905
Maybe I should work on having better middos…. I don’t think I’m holding by giving water to camels just yet…December 11, 2016 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #1211906
How do spiritually inclined females even think of going out, dating, PLAYING GAMES?!? Shouldn’t they be on a higher dargah?!? Shouldn’t they suffice with a mere glance? (actually a spiritually inclined female will have no use for looks, that’s for the shallow male..) After all they’re the ones with the wisdom, insight, thoughtfulness, intuition. They know how to read people’s faces, expressions, foreheads and palms. Chachma, bina, daas and every thing else in between… Figure him out even before he attempts to speak. Why all the extra ‘fun’?!? A spiritually filled female ought to exude rays of holiness…
I don’t get it… Am I missing something?!?December 11, 2016 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1211907
LF – Maybe you should speak to all those people who always pressure me to keep going out even though I can tell from the first date that it’s not shayich!!!December 11, 2016 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #1211908
“How do spiritually inclined females even think of going out, dating, PLAYING GAMES?!? Shouldn’t they be on a higher dargah?!? Shouldn’t they suffice with a mere glance?”
It’s all relative. “more than” doesn’t translate as perfect.December 12, 2016 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1211909
To the OP, how do you know what shidduchim was like in every generation for the past 3000 years? How can you be so absolutely certain that was goes on today is so new?December 12, 2016 1:07 am at 1:07 am #1211910
Joseph, I want to meet your wife. I like tzadeikises. Can I meet her? Maybe she can come to Israel with LB?December 12, 2016 2:39 am at 2:39 am #1211912
You’d be surprised, there are lots of women who didn’t “go out” at all. And are happily married. (one second, let me ask Frogette)
After parents or caregivers or shadchanim check it out, the parties involved meet at prospective Kallah’s house. It’s not for a game or frivolous chatting, it’s for serious stuff, they meet in a tzanua’dik setting. They get to see if they like each other enough to start a Yiddishe home together. If they find themselves compatible and willing, they go ahead and finalize. Three or four meetings more or less is the norm, believe it or not. And then, (and a SPIRITUAL INCLINED FEMALE should surely know), many circles do not communicate until after the Chuppa. It does not bring out the best in either to mix, mingle with the other – the are NOT couple yet. And if all works out (which would more likely happen if they use restraint at the beginning), they’ll have each other to talk to many, many years!!
Take a tip from Yitzchak Avinu (actually that’s why the Torah choose to write it) ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???????. He brought her in to his mother’s tent (he found her compatible – ??? ??? ???) he married her, and THEN grew to love her. That is the way for a Yiddishe marriage to succeed. You don’t have to love before marriage, and it won’t bring out any good.
But of course any highly spiritual female knows that.December 12, 2016 3:06 am at 3:06 am #1211913
LF – I’ve always said that I’d be more than happy to do things the Chassidish way. If I knew someone who was capable of finding my zivug for me, I’d be happy not to have to date. But I don’t, so I have to.
But what you are describing sounds like a regular shidduch date to me. Except that it’s a sit-in instead of going to a hotel lobby. Otherwise, it’s the same thing. Sometimes shidduch dates are sit-in’s too which would make it the same thing.
Regarding Yitzchak loving Rivka after marriage, I once heard a shiur about how by Yaakov it says that he loved Rochel before he married her. This shows that everyone is different, and different people need to be at a different stage before marriage.
I very much believe that everyone is different and everyone needs to date differently. A person’s age, personality and personal experiences have a very big effect on what they need. I have known people who needed more time before they got engaged and people who needed less, and it had no connection to how Frum or Yeshivish or tznius they were.
I knew a couple who were extremely Frum and tznius and took a while to get to a decision and people put pressure on them. Her parents were divorced and he had lost his father the year before. I really don’t think it was right of people to put pressure on them. Everyone needs a different amount of time and people shouldn’t put pressures on others. There are so many broken engagements and divorces, so it clearly is possible for people to decide too quickly.
Honestly, I have no clue how long I will take since I am not there yet, but it makes sense that at my age when I’m mainly going out with divorced guys, dating is going to be very different than it is for sheltered 18 year old girls who have parents who take care of everything for them.
I’ve spoken to one of the Gedolei Hador about dating and the things he was saying about how shidduchim should be approached and what I should be doing were VERY different than what you are saying. Probably because I’m not 18, so it is different.December 12, 2016 3:09 am at 3:09 am #1211914
LF: +1December 12, 2016 3:16 am at 3:16 am #1211915
LF – I just reread your post. I’m not even sure what your point is. What you are talking about is shidduch dating. Joseph’s OP was about how shidduch dating is wrong. That is what I was arguing against.December 12, 2016 3:24 am at 3:24 am #1211916
Little Froggie- “But of course any highly spiritual female knows that.”
That statement is very condescending. A large segment of klal israel, whose women are frum and eager to get married, cannot simply date 3 or 4 times and be done. To suggest that they are not ‘highly spiritual’ because they don’t conform to your perfected way of doing things, is arrogant and insulting.December 12, 2016 3:33 am at 3:33 am #1211917
lilmod, what LF described is quite different than shidduch dating. Dating might include going to restaurants, parks, bowling, sightseeing, lobbies, drives in car rides with only the unrelated boy and girl together with no one else, etc. What LF described includes none of that.December 12, 2016 4:00 am at 4:00 am #1211919
In EY, it is very similar to the way he described.December 12, 2016 4:00 am at 4:00 am #1211920
BG- +1December 12, 2016 4:02 am at 4:02 am #1211921
And Joseph, I’m still waiting to hear how you met your wife.December 12, 2016 4:07 am at 4:07 am #1211922
What about the way Yaakov met Rachel? Perhaps we should emulate that.December 12, 2016 4:07 am at 4:07 am #1211923
Joseph, yes please ask your wife to meet me in London so we can go to EY and meet LU where your wife will give us brachas to marry our zivugs this year according to the only perfect approach. Thank you.December 12, 2016 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1211924
LU, you’re going to have to keep waiting… Joseph just ignores questions that he can’t answer…December 12, 2016 4:25 am at 4:25 am #1211926
btw, if anyone knows a guy for me that is so clearly matim for me that I don’t have to go out more than 4 times I would be very happy! In fact, if I could just skip the 4 times, I would be even happier!December 12, 2016 4:29 am at 4:29 am #1211927
lilmod, what are your feelings about the problematic shidduch dating system in the US and other places outside Eretz Yisroel that I described in my immediately preceding comment? (What you’re describing as the dating system in EY seems to be closer to the Chasidish beshow system than to the American shidduch dating system.)December 12, 2016 4:44 am at 4:44 am #1211928
lilmod ulelamaid- why don’t you take a step back, and describe for us what your dating experience has been like, what are the chief complaints you have with the current system, and what do you think is missing with the guys today (or at least the ones you met).
I’m sure you have much to say.December 12, 2016 4:57 am at 4:57 am #1211929
If the American yeshivish oilem changed their dating system to the way the Eretz Yisroel yeshivish oilem dates (as I understand it from lilmod’s description), a lot of the tznius problems inherent in the American system would be resolved.
(Not to say that the Chasidish system wouldn’t be even better, from a tznius perspective. It would be.)December 12, 2016 5:10 am at 5:10 am #1211930
Joseph – Thank you for asking me for my opinion.
My feeling in general on this topic is that everyone is different and everyone needs to do things the way that works for them, and people shouldn’t be so quick to judge the way others do things.
Of course, there may be some ways of doing things that are theoretically more ideal than others but they may not work for everyone.
Shidduchim is a very sensitive matter, and it is very important that everyone feels that he can do things the way that is right for him and that he doesn’t feel judged or looked down on for it.
This goes both ways – I can’t stand it when people criticize others for only going out 4 times and I can’t stand it when people are criticized for needing to go out for 3 months. Everyone is different, and people shouldn’t be so judgmental.
Personally, I think that the reason I am not married yet is because I was forced to do things in ways that were wrong for me.December 12, 2016 5:12 am at 5:12 am #1211931
BG- I could probably write a book. Or maybe a few. I don’t have time right now, but b”n, I will try to get back to you when I have time to think about it.December 12, 2016 6:06 am at 6:06 am #1211932
BG, (I can’t get myself to call you by your sn, sorry), my ‘article’ was tongue in cheek for whoever needed it. Don’t get carried away with it.
I heard an approach, it’s kedai to listen (lishmo’a) – maybe I’m a Gadol (you have to be dan l’zchus!). And the idea is somewhat along these lines: a person should make his / her hishtadlus in this inyan, but place the emphasis on betachon on HaShem. As I heard quoted, when HaShem sees your ‘taking over’ He says ‘OK little one, let’s see what you could do for yourself’. This, I heard, is a reason why so many bright individuals cannot make ends meet, somehow they don’t end up being the millionaires. HaShem says to them, ‘your so bright, you’re seemingly in control – let’s see what you could do’.
Of course one must make the hishtadlus, but as we learn from the Parsha of Shidduchim, in the end (beginning and middle too) it’s all about ????? ?????.December 12, 2016 6:26 am at 6:26 am #1211933
Joseph: “If the American yeshivish oilem changed their dating system to the way the Eretz Yisroel yeshivish oilem dates (as I understand it from lilmod’s description), a lot of the tznius problems inherent in the American system would be resolved.”
The Yeshivish people that I know in America date the same way. At least that’s what my friend’s daughter did. The only difference was the car part. In Israel, most people don’t have cars, so you have to take a bus to the hotel lobby. In most places in the US, you can’t get around by bus, so the guy has to pick the girl up by car.December 12, 2016 7:40 am at 7:40 am #1211934
One difference between EY and American dating system is the ease and safety of getting around. In EY, where the yeshivish bochurim do not have licenses or cars, the girl and boy both travel by bus to a designated hotel (unless they have a sit-in in some neutral home), meet in the lobby, sit for 2-3 h over drinks, and then part and go home separately. The first date can lead to some awkward moments when they have to figure out who their date is among those waiting around. I can’t imagine a girl in NY traveling by herself by public transportation late at night from the Manhattan hotel to her home, or even earlier on, from her home to Manhattan.
The reason why dates include parks or museums or other places more entertaining than a hotel lobby, is because sometimes people need to be more relaxed to get to know each other.
By the way, in the real “olden days” the girls would dress up in white and go out and dance, and the boys would choose from among them- if we did that today, there would be plenty of postings on the CR about how it lacks tznius.December 12, 2016 8:01 am at 8:01 am #1211936
LF: “How do spiritually inclined females even think of going out, dating, PLAYING GAMES?!? Shouldn’t they be on a higher dargah?!? Shouldn’t they suffice with a mere glance? (actually a spiritually inclined female will have no use for looks, that’s for the shallow male..) After all they’re the ones with the wisdom, insight, thoughtfulness, intuition. They know how to read people’s faces, expressions, foreheads and palms. Chachma, bina, daas and every thing else in between… Figure him out even before he attempts to speak. Why all the extra ‘fun’?!? A spiritually filled female ought to exude rays of holiness…
I don’t get it… Am I missing something?!?”
Is it impposible for you to make direct statements? Why do you have to hide behind so many layers of sarcasm?
See what I did here? I had a problem with you and I told you what it was. And it took me 4 lines!December 12, 2016 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1211937
The solo car ride between boy and girl is only one issue. Going to a lobby, okay. But an amusement park, bowling, ice skating, restaurant, sightseeing, etc.? I dunno. The yeshivish oilem doesn’t seem to do that in Eretz Yisroel.December 12, 2016 12:25 pm at 12:25 pm #1211938
Take a tip from Yitzchak Avinu (actually that’s why the Torah choose to write it) ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???????. He brought her in to his mother’s tent (he found her compatible – ??? ??? ???) he married her, and THEN grew to love her.
Or from Ya’akov Avinu.
?????????? ??????? ???-?????
different type of ????December 12, 2016 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1211939
lilmod ulelamaid- or you could offer tidbits and go from there. Your musing will surely stimulate much discussion. I’m just curious.
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