December 13, 2016 7:01 am at 7:01 am #1211991
WTP- I don’t see why it’s untznius though. It just might be uncomfortable for her the first few times she goes out, but after that she shouldn’t mind. I certainly don’t care anymore if people know I’m going on a date.
Even if you don’t take public transportation, they can see you when you are in the hotel lobby or they can see the guy when he comes to the door or they can see both of you as you are walking to the car (that sounds even more awkward to me! How do people manage that?)December 13, 2016 7:27 am at 7:27 am #1211992
American yeshivish bochorim, by and large, do not have their own cars. They usually borrow their father’s car or rent a car for the date. So the fact that the Eretz Yisroel yeshivish bochorim don’t drive their dates is a deliberate decision. They could’ve also borrowed a parents or relatives car or rented one. But they b’davka do not”
Please when you’re speculating about a country and a sociaty you don’t live in have the decency to add words like “seems like” and “probably”.December 13, 2016 7:35 am at 7:35 am #1211993
Joseph you started your post demanding that we all go chasidish. Why are you suddenly content with being similar to the litvish people in E”Y? Is it just the lesser of two evils? Or do you suppose everything they do in the the yeshivish oilem in E”Y is kodoysh kodoysh and would allow no discussion?
You probably know that in some chasidish communities it’s considered untznius for the husband and wife to take a walk togather in the street. Are we suppose to follow them by default just because they take a more extreme position? Or is it again solely the E”Y yeshivish world that’s worth following?December 13, 2016 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1211994Avi KParticipant
Rav Moshe says it is permitted to take public transportation if necessary (Iggerot Moshe, Even HaEzer, 2:14). All of these far-out chumrot are gezerot that almost none of the public can keep. The result of pushing them will be a light attitude towards real halachot. This, in fact, is happening in Israel with the craze to find a way for everything to be under the prohibition of kitniyot during Pesach. Next they wil claim that an Ashkenazi can’t talk to a Sephardi because he might have kitniyot on his breathe.December 13, 2016 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #1211995DaMosheParticipant
Joseph, the things said about people who impose unnecessary chumros are none too flattering. Don’t go down that path.December 13, 2016 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1211996
“Rav Moshe says it is permitted to take public transportation if necessary”
Emphasis on the words, “if necessary”. According to Chazal if someone takes a route that involves seeing people untzniusly dressed and he had another option, he is a rasha.
In any case, the point of this discussion is to figure out the best option. If the whole purpose of his taking public transportation rather than driving the girl is to be more tznius and meanwhile it’s actually less tznius, that would defeat the point.December 13, 2016 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1211997gavra_at_workParticipant
I agree with you about the activities. And I have davka been advised that I should do things on dates (not that it’s up to me…)
OF COURSE it is up to you. If you aren’t assertive when you are dating, how can you expect your future husband to know you as anything other than a pushover?
The result of pushing them will be a light attitude towards real halachot.
This has already happened in the realm of “Tznius”.December 13, 2016 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1211998
(I have not read the this entire thread so maybe this has already been said)
The issue with dating is not one of “tznius,” it is one of halacha. Unfortunately, we no longer maintain tahara for terumos, chalah, or eating chullin. As such all of our unmarried girls are ervos d’oraisa (???). It is clear halacha in the Shulchan Aruch that one is not allowed to laugh/play with ????? or be lightheaded/frivilous/flirtatious with ?????. Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 21:1.
The Shulchan Aruch does say that it is mutar to stare at a ????? to decide whether you would like to marry her. Even assuming that this is not referring to a penuyah tahorah, this heter is limited to histaklus. There is no heter for ???? and ???? ???. And yet, this is what goes on on most dates after the first (assuming things are “going well”).
Finally, even if one argues that nowadays we need to extend the heter of Chazal to ???? and ???? ??? (which I don’t see how we could do, lacking a Sanhedrin), there is no basis for allowing such things once the young couple have made a decision to get married. How is it that young couples continue to date when they “unofficially” and “officially” engaged?December 13, 2016 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1211999
benignuman: You’re making a strong case that a chasidish type shidduch system is halachicly required.December 13, 2016 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #1212000gavra_at_workParticipant
There is no heter for ???? and ???? ???. And yet, this is what goes on on most dates after the first (assuming things are “going well”).
This is a good point. Each date should be L’Toeles, not for “???? and ???? ???”. If one gets to the point where the dates are “flirtatious”, the the couple needs to scale back.
I would hope in Yeraim communities where dating is L’Toeles, there is not ???? and ???? ???.December 13, 2016 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1212001MenoParticipant
Requiring the chasidish type shidduch system would result in many terrible marriages. I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with the system, it’s just not for everyone.December 13, 2016 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1212002
“How is it that young couples continue to date when they “unofficially” and “officially” engaged?”
They only see or speak to each other to the extent that their Roshei Yeshivas allow.December 13, 2016 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1212003
I actually heard that there was a Rav who said that people should go out at least 8 times before they get engaged because there are so many divorces today.
Considering how many divorces, broken engagements and older singles there are, I think one has to be very careful about making generalizations about how people should date.December 13, 2016 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1212004reuventree555Participant
DaMoshe and Person1,
Though you guys are right, there is no point calling out Joseph. When he sees arguments that he can’t refute or are inconvient to the point he is making, he simply ignores them. Probably because he’s a bored 15 year old Yeshiva bachur. Don’t bother waiting for him to respond to your points.December 13, 2016 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1212005
Meno, the Chasidim have at least as many great marriages as non-Chasidim, so clearly something is working with how they’re doing things.
Lilmod, even among the yeshivish the divorce rate is no lower among those that dated their spouse more times than those that dated less times. Anecdotally I’ve even found better marriages and less divorces among those that dated less times in the yeshivish oilem.December 13, 2016 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1212006ShloimelMember
OMG LOL. It’s hilarious that people still take Joseph seriously, and even try to engage in discussion with him.December 13, 2016 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1212007MenoParticipant
“Meno, the Chasidim have at least as many great marriages as non-Chasidim, so clearly something is working with how they’re doing things.”
I don’t doubt that. But as I said it’s not for everyone. The chasidish system works well for chasidim due to other cultural factors. That system wouldn’t work well for other people.
My point is, perhaps you’re right that in an ideal world everyone would do it that way. But this isn’t an ideal world and there’s no way you could get the chasidish system to work for everyone.December 13, 2016 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1212008
Meno, what leads you to believe that if the yeshivish oilem emulated parts of the chasidish shidduch methodology (even if not across the board), it would be detrimental?l I don’t think there’s evidence of that.December 13, 2016 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #1212009twistedParticipant
As tzanua as one can be, and still stay rational. EY, in the city, (because I am lazy) commute by bus, in black and white casual, to a neighborhood where neither party (me in particular) is not a well known face, and keep it to a street side bench or bench in non deserted park. When it is a no go, you wind it down kindly and with tact, say nechmad lehakir, and jump back on the bus. But ya got to be in it to win it.December 13, 2016 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #1212010
Joseph, I agree with you 100% that the more Yeshivish the community the less divorces (in general, imho). In fact, that is why I always get upset when people attack the more Yeshivish ways of dating as though they are to blame for the rising divorce rate.
BUT, I think that there is a big difference between saying that the more Yeshivish/Chassidish ways are the reason for the high divorce rate (which as you pointed out does not seem to be substantiated by the facts), and saying that there are people who would be better off going out more often or in different ways.
As I keep pointing out, these things are very individual and everyone has to do what’s right for him/her.
One thing that is bothering me about this conversation: If it’s untznius for people to go out more than a handful of times, or to have more casual dates (even though it’s for toeles), why is it okay for men to be talking to women online (and telling them that the way they date is untznius)?
Personally, I think that both things fall in grey areas of halacha, which doesn’t mean that there is no right and wrong, but it does mean that it depends on the individual and the situation and therefore only the person himself can make his own cheshbonos (by weighing the ideal against the reality).
I totally agree with you that dating has to be as tznius as possible, but it also has to be effective, and what that necessitates is different for everyone.December 13, 2016 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1212011
GAW: “There is no heter for ???? and ???? ???. And yet, this is what goes on on most dates after the first (assuming things are “going well”).
This is a good point. Each date should be L’Toeles, not for “???? and ???? ???”. If one gets to the point where the dates are “flirtatious”, the the couple needs to scale back.
I would hope in Yeraim communities where dating is L’Toeles, there is not ???? and ???? ???.”
There are people (super-Yeshivish super-tznius people) who feel that a certain amount of that may be necessary.
There is also a difference between older singles and younger singles. While it is possible that it is not necessary for younger singles, it is definitely necessary for older singles (within appropriate bounds of course).
And I would think that to some degree it is needed for most younger singles as well in order for the dating to serve the purpose it is meant to serve.
(by the way, I am defining “schok” and “kalus rosh” according to a broad definition which is the halachic definition if I am not mistaken).December 14, 2016 12:38 am at 12:38 am #1212012🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“Please when you’re speculating about a country and a sociaty you don’t live in have the decency to add words like “seems like” and “probably”. “
Yup. I have been wanting to make that same disclaimer to a few other posters as well. And additionally this one:
“Please, when speculating about something that happens in New York can you please have the decency NOT to write words implying it applies to Jews in general or everyone (ie, it is accepted that…, the way it is done is…, in any shul you will find…)”December 14, 2016 12:56 am at 12:56 am #1212013
I think the comment about not taking Joseph seriously was a bit offensive. I see no reason not to take his comments in this thread seriously. You may disagree (as I do to some extent), but there it is no reason not to take him seriously. I think that his comments were meant seriously and were l’sheim Shamayim out of a sincere concern for tznius.December 14, 2016 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1212014BigGolemParticipant
“I agree with you 100% that the more Yeshivish the community the less divorces (in general, imho).”
How do we know this? Are there numbers to back it up?December 14, 2016 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1212015
BigGolem – that’s why I added the words imho. I knew someone would ask that question. 🙂
No, I don’t have numbers to back it up. It is just my opinion, and I mentioned it only because I was responding to Joseph’s statement and pointing out that even though I agree with him on that, I don’t see it as a contradiction to my statement. And there was no need for me to have statistics in order to make that point.December 14, 2016 3:37 am at 3:37 am #1212016
“One thing that is bothering me about this conversation: If it’s untznius for people to go out more than a handful of times, or to have more casual dates (even though it’s for toeles), why is it okay for men to be talking to women online (and telling them that the way they date is untznius).”
I don’t mean to pick on you but one of my pet peeves about words like “tznius” and the overly broad way they are used in our circles is that it obfuscates what is “grey area” as you put it, and what is black on white halacha pesuka. Schok and Kalus rosh with arayos is a gezeira d’rabbanan for which the punishment is lashes (makos mardos).
Talking to women online in a manner that is not schok or kalus rosh is not forbidden by a gezeira. It might be in some circumstances and among some communities “untzniusdik” according to their standards. But that sort of “tznius” is an organic concept of Daas Yehudis, something that fluctuates and changes with the time and place. The two cannot be compared.
Just because you feel it is necessary for singles to engage in schok and kalus rosh is insufficient to be mevatel a gezeiras chazal. It would take very broad shoulders to declare a horaas shoh.December 14, 2016 3:45 am at 3:45 am #1212017BigGolemParticipant
lilmod ulelamaid- I don’t think anyone has numbers to back it up. It’s an assumption we all make because it’s something we want to believe is true. The frummer we are = the more restrictive the dating is = less divorce.
Sp let’s assume that it is in fact true. Does fewer divorces automatically mean happier marriages?December 14, 2016 4:01 am at 4:01 am #1212018LightbriteParticipant
People often derive happiness from living a meaningful life
What if less divorces = marriage for a cause = contentment in the struggleDecember 14, 2016 4:02 am at 4:02 am #1212019
benignuman: You agree that the halachic point you are making indicates that the chasidish model is far preferable halachicly, if not actually mandatory?December 14, 2016 5:55 am at 5:55 am #1212020
Yes, I agree that is preferable. I don’t think it is mandatory because I think that there is median between modern dating in the Yeshiva world and the Chasidish model that is mutar.December 14, 2016 9:39 am at 9:39 am #1212021
If there were major tznius problems and potential arayos issues about the typical American yeshivish way of dating (as opposed to Chasidish), wouldn’t the roshei yeshiva and rabbonim, who I am sure know what goes on and are involved in their talmidim’s and children’s dating, say something and put a stop to it? If they haven’t, then maybe they feel it is necessary?
By the way, I heard from someone who grew up in and around the Mir Yeshiva, that the girls of the Mir families knew all the bochurim, and shidduchim would be arranged accordingly. So much for today’s falling standards…December 14, 2016 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1212022
That is a good question. Maybe there is someone big out there who has declared a horaas shoh that everyone is relying on. But I suspect that the Roshei Yeshiva do not know what goes on typical dates (outside of the very Yeshivish) after the first one or two. I have hard time believing that any Rosh Yeshiva would tell his talmid that it is mutar to take a girl to Dave & Busters or Chelsea Piers. When I was in the parsha it never even occurred to me to ask.December 14, 2016 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1212023
benignuman, how many dates did you have with your wife prior to marriage, and what did you do on your later dates?December 14, 2016 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1212024ShloimelMember
“I think the comment about not taking Joseph seriously was a bit offensive. I see no reason not to take his comments in this thread seriously.”
Oh, I didn’t just mean in this thread, I meant all the time.
“You may disagree (as I do to some extent), but there it is no reason not to take him seriously. I think that his comments were meant seriously and were l’sheim Shamayim out of a sincere concern for tznius.”
I think years worth of trying to stir the pot, living under a dozen usernames, and avoiding all comments that uproot his twisted logic are enough of a reason to never take him seriously.
But by all means, continue to engage him in conversation. It provides me with pages of hilarious content.December 14, 2016 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1212025LightbriteParticipant
“…wouldn’t the roshei yeshiva and rabbonim, who I am sure know what goes on and are involved in their talmidim’s and children’s dating, say something and put a stop to it? If they haven’t, then maybe they feel it is necessary?”
Maybe they have an idea but look the other way because they have bigger battles and it’s better to tolerate it than risk pushing people away from Yiddishkeit.
They may be in a tough predicament. If they prevent young people, hormones and all, from dating as they currently do, then their talmidim may grow resentful.
And/or, imposing rules on bochurim may also close the channel of communication between them and the talmidim, which may also be detrimental for them in the long run.
Maybe that’s also why teaching women tznius is so critical. More so than ever, they may have to be the direct voice of opposition.
Though surely I cannot generalize about rosh yeshivot and rabbonim.
I wonder if it’s like how people go to doctor’s today when they’re sick and the doctor prescribes antibiotics out of pressure. If he/she doesn’t prescribe then maybe the patient may be unsatisfied and find another doctor who complies.December 14, 2016 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1212026
Perhaps people don’t go to “interesting” date destinations because it’s fun. In fact I doubt it’s fun at all*. Maybe they do that because they haven’t managed to open up in the more conventional settings.
In any case I have to say we’ve gone a long way from “is dating tznius” to “you shouldn’t go to Dave and Busters on your date”. Maybe if the OP had put it this way readers would have taken him more seriously. Than again, maybe being taken seriously was not the objective in the first place.
As to the main discussion: maybe Schok and Kalus Rosh is understood to refer to a type of forbidden relationship or interaction, rather than forbidden acts (like eating chomez on pesach) If you crack jokes with a female worker in your office, that’s a very different kind of interaction than making the same jokes with someone whom you consider marying in three monthes. I suspect that if someone can’t see that they have never been on a chareidi date.
* Personally I don’t really find dating to be fun, unless you get married at the end. It’s a very short lives fun in any case.December 14, 2016 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1212027
Benignuman – first of all, I am impressed by your saying that you don’t mean to pick on me. I think that’s a first for the Coffee Room (and it’s not like you then went to say anything particularly offensive.)
I think you missed my point somewhere. I had been somewhat offended by a comment someone had made criticizing the way I date. I thought that was somewhat hypocritical (amongst other things). There is a lot less “schok and kalus rosh” on my dates than there is in the CR. You yourself said that you wouldn’t consider Yeshivish dating to be “schok and kalus rosh”.
And I have been told that I should date in more casual ways than I do by people who are more qualified to be giving aitza than the people here are.
One of the Gedolei Hador told me that I should be going to singles’ events. He said he was at a chasuna once and he had 20 boys lining up on one side of the mechitza and 20 girls lining up on other to get brachos for him, and he was like, “Why are you talking to me? You should be talking to each other.”
In terms of halacha, my understanding of the halacha is that it is a halacha (not a chumra) that men and women are not allowed to talk to each other more than necessary. The reason that it is what I call a “grey area of halacha” is that there is no clear definition of “more than necessary”, since this would very much depend on the individual and his/her situation. For example, I feel that personally, for me, posting in the CR is something necessary right now. And for me, it may be necessary to go out more than 4 times even though it might not be for someone else. And I may need to do something other than sit in a hotel lobby on a date. I don’t really know yet and I guess I won’t know till I meet my zivug, IY”H. But if it turns out that I need to do so, then I have a chiyuv to do so even if it’s not how I’m used to doing things.December 14, 2016 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1212028
Person1 +1! For your entire post, but especially the first paragraph. That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Especially if people see that the regular way of dating hasn’t worked, then they may need to do something different.
And by different, I mean going to the zoo or playing a board game and going out more than 4 times if they need to.
And btw, what are Dave & Busters and Chelsea Piers?December 14, 2016 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1212029
I believe benignuman’s point that the Roshei Yeshiva do not know what goes on typical dates (outside of the very Yeshivish) is accurate. I also think lightbrite’s point that the roshei yeshiva realize that with certain segments of people they are facing an uphill battle fighting this scourge is also true. Additionally I think that the roshei yeshiva do talk about this problem to a large extent, where they think they can be a positive influence on the bochorim. Unfortunately while they are more successful on the very yeshivish, as benignuman pointed out, they are less successful with the less than very yeshivish.December 14, 2016 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1212030
Person1 :”* Personally I don’t really find dating to be fun, unless you get married at the end.”
+ 1,000! Torture would probably be a better word.December 14, 2016 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1212031
Lilmod, which godol was that?
Chelsea Piers is a sports arena where they have bowling and some other sporting activities. The other place I haven’t heard of.December 14, 2016 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1212032Avram in MDParticipant
With regard to happy marriages and reducing divorces, I think one’s attitude and conduct after the chuppa is much more important than how many dates happened beforehand, or what kind of dates, etc. There is no magical formula to plug in before a marriage that guarantees success. That’s a fairy tale, and all fairy tales end before the real love story begins. A spouse must wake up each and every morning and actively decide to be committed to his/her marriage.December 14, 2016 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1212033
I deliberately didn’t say his name because I didn’t think it would be right to quote him by name in such a public forum without permission. But he’s someone whom you (and I think everyone) would accept.December 14, 2016 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1212034
“So let’s assume that it is in fact true. Does fewer divorces automatically mean happier marriages?”
no not necessarily. I was commenting on Joseph’s comment. He specified both – happier marriages and fewer divorces. My understanding was that he was listing both as two different things, both of which SEEM to be found more often in the Yeshivish world (not that one is necessarily proof of the other). When I agreed with him, that is what I was agreeing with.
“lilmod ulelamaid- I don’t think anyone has numbers to back it up. It’s an assumption we all make because it’s something we want to believe is true. The frummer we are = the more restrictive the dating is = less divorce.”
I wasn’t basing it on that. I was mainly basing it on what I see. Additionally, I do think that people who are more “Yeshivish” the way I define the term would be more likely to have better marriages (in general). I wasn’t saying that this is because the way they date is more restrictive. I was simply saying that I don’t think it makes sense to attribute the rise in divorce to the Yeshivish method of dating (which doesn’t mean that it’s impossible that there can be improvements made in it). My main point was really this last one – that was the context of my statements.December 14, 2016 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1212035
Avrum in MD – while there is a lot of truth to what you’re saying, the question is how to get to that point (of being married) and different people need different things.December 14, 2016 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #1212036
“Chelsea Piers is a sports arena where they have bowling and some other sporting activities. The other place I haven’t heard of.”
Thanks for answering. Sounds like fun – too bad it’s in the US and I can’t go there.December 14, 2016 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1212037Avram in MDParticipant
the question is how to get to that point (of being married) and different people need different things.
I agree. My post was more in response to the notion bandied about in this thread that’s tangential to the OP, that there is a strong relationship between the number or type of dates and the health of the subsequent marriage.December 14, 2016 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1212038
benignuman: “I have hard time believing that any Rosh Yeshiva would tell his talmid that it is mutar to take a girl to Dave & Busters or Chelsea Piers.”
because of tznius or because these places are not the right environment for a yeshiva boy to be in at all? I remember a date I had a long time ago when the boy took me to a pool place. It was a horrible place filled with people I did not want to be around, I felt so uncomfortable, nor was I impressed when my date happily showed off his pool playing skills but didn’t care at all that I had no idea how to even hold the stick.December 14, 2016 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1212039
“Lilmod, which godol was that?”
He’s on this list:December 14, 2016 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1212040
lightbrite: “Maybe they have an idea but look the other way because they have bigger battles and it’s better to tolerate it than risk pushing people away from Yiddishkeit.”
If this is really an issue of potential arayos, and big tznius concerns, they would not be looking away. I don’t think yeshiva bochurim will be pushed away from Yiddishkeit if they couldn’t go out bowling with a date.
“They may be in a tough predicament. If they prevent young people, hormones and all, from dating as they currently do, then their talmidim may grow resentful.”
Yet there are plenty of rules that the rabbonim set up for during the engagement, as to frequency and purpose of seeing each other. The bochurim understand that these rules are set up for a very good reason.
LB, from your comment, I am not sure how much experience you have with Yeshiva style dating. whether it is in a lounge or a park or the zoo or someone’s living room, it is by its nature formal. The point of a more relaxed setting or a fun date is to get the person to feel more comfortable being him/herself, to facilitate meaningful conversation. It is not an allowance to hormones, and any date that is, is definitely not a tznius one and would never be sanctioned by the rabbonim.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.