Kasha of Beis Yosef

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  • #600883

    oot for life
    Member

    Since we have now begun the month of Kislev thoughts often turn towards Chanukah. I was wondering if people have favorite answers to the Beis Yosef’s Kasha: If there was enough oil for one night than the neis was only 7 nights, why do we celebrate 8?

    The one that I like (I believe b’shem Rav Moshe Feinstein) is: The fact that oil burns and that life functions as it should on a regular basis is a neis, this is why we light the first night.

  • #989733

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    The B.Y.’s kasha has to be one of the greatest questions in the entire spectrum of traditional, jewish lore! I beleive there is a sefer out there exclusively on this one kasha, with about 100 or so answers.

  • #989734

    MeinMeinung
    Member

    From the Chasam Sofer:

    Since everything was tamei they lit the menorah in the chatzar and the neis is that the wind didn’t extinguish the flames.

    With this we understand, we end Al Hanisim with ??????? ???? ?????? ???? therefore ????? ????? ??? ????? ???

  • #989735

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    This is a standard question in all girls school from about 3rd grade and up. Various answers for the extra day include:

    The neis that they won the war

    The neis that they found the oil in the first place

    If you go with the pshat that they only poured out 1/8th of the oil into the menora: It should only have burned for 1/8th of the day but it burned for the full day

  • #989736

    sof davar
    Member

    The ??? is called ?? ????

  • #989737

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I hate this kasha, and wish the beis yosef had never asked it.

    Firstly, it seems obvious that some miracle must have occurred the first day if there was any amount of oil left to burn the rest of the days.

    Secondly, why couldn’t they just pick 8 days anyway, since it would sound weird to celebrate 7 days for a menorah that burned 7 “extra” days.

  • #989738

    real-brisker
    Member

    whoops, I thought you were refering to the SN – Kasha = Joseph.

  • #989739

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    real-brisker; let’s drop that topic, please. I think everyone here has moved on….

    popa: LOL, my friend, the question, no matter how you answer it, will always be the greatest question ever.

    And anyways, according to your logic, that the FIRST day was a neis TOO because there was some remaining oil, (which is a great ha’arah BTW) but then it would come out that the EIGHTH day wasn’t miraculous!! So you’re still left with a question why eight days and not seven?

    To your second question, I have never heard that question before. What I did hear is why isn’t there a NINTH day ‘altz’ sefeika d’yoma?

    p.s. do you really HATE the kasha, or did you write that to annoy me again 🙂

  • #989740

    sam4321
    Member

    I have a sefer which has 500 answers its called yimei smoneh chanuka.

  • #989741

    sam4321
    Member

    An interesting answer :it says they had only for one day,mitvos ner ish u’beto answers they knew before the war this jug had for one day but after the war the same jug was good for 8 days.

  • #989743

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    BaalHaboo, one answers the other. The eighth day wasn’t a Ness and we only keep it because of Sfeika Deyoma. I actually found this in the Arvei Nachal after some time.

  • #989744

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    Popa, if the Beis Yosef wouldn’t ask it we would still deal with it, just we’d call it the Me’iri’s Kasha or the Maharal’s Kasha, or anyone else who mentioned this age old Kasha. The Beis Yosef didn’t claim to make this Kasha up, either.

  • #989745

    WIY
    Member

    I like the terutz that 1 day is to celebrate the very fact that oil burns as most liquids put out fires!

  • #989746

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    Another reason why we celebrate 8 days.

    It says the Yevonim tried to snuff out the jewish flame, for good, by taking away 3 central things: shabbos, rosh chodesh and milah.

    shabbos is the central and principal testimony to being Jewish.

    rosh chodesh is the basic time period which makes up the Jewish calendar for us to live and celebrate our national celebrations/yom tovim. And milah is the bris between Hashem and a yid.

    The Yom Tov of Chanukah celebrates these 3 areas of yiddishkeit.

    1) Chanukah always has a shabbos

    2) Chanuka was established on 25th of Kislev so that there will always be a Rosh Chodesh

  • #989747

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    It was a miracle that they trusted the hashgacha.

  • #989748

    yitayningwut
    Member

    I found an interesting thing in the words of the Ri MiLunel which makes that the kasha doesn’t start:

    ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????. ?? ????? ????. ??? ???? ?? ??? ??????, ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????, ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???, ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ??? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???????. ?? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ???, ??? ?????? ???????? ???? ??????, ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????, ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???

    Basically he says that historically speaking they were willing to enact an 8 day yom tov even if the miracle of the oil had never occurred, because the story with the war was a big miracle and worthy of instituting a yom tov as long as Succos because of it. When the miracle of the oil happened, they figured hey we should light candles too.

  • #989749

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    I have two answers;

    One is the Ri M’Luniel in Shabbos who says that we have eight days in order to show that it is more important than any other Yomtov, so we have it as long as the longest Yomtov – Sukkos + Shmini Atzeres, which is eight days. Look inside to see why Chanuka is more important than any other YomTov!

    My own answer is that if we want to commemorate the highest person in the world who is – lets say – ten feet tall. Would we make a four foot statue for him because everyone else is six feet and only four feet of his height is remarkable?? So too, the oil burnt eight days instead of one. So we commemorate the eight-day miracle with eight days, no?

  • #989750

    ED IT OR
    Member

    leibidig yankel, I’m on your side, I love the practicality of your teretz!

  • #989751

    Toi
    Member

    itche- loflippinl.

  • #989752

    nsnsc03
    Member

    While it is a fascinating question, i dont believe the beis yosef would never have asked it if he was around today. If you look in the migillas taanis (written during the time of the gemara by amora’im), the reason that it gives for chanuka has nothing to do with the miracle of the candles but rather the chunukas hamizbeach.

    So why did the beis yosef ask his question? Did he not know about the migillas taanis?

    The answer is probably no, he did not know about it because he didnt have access to the manuscript.

  • #989753

    ED IT OR
    Member

    ns ns. the beis yosef asks on lighting menora all 8 days, not on why we keep chanukah,

    there is more to chanukah than menora, think about hallel, dreidle, al hanisim, doughnuts, latkes…..

  • #989754

    BaalHabooze, I think the answer to your question on why we dont celebrate a 9th day because of sfeika diyoma is that Chanukah isn’t a yom tov mentioned in the Torah-it is a yom tov midivrei sofrim, as the Mishna Berurah says it, and I don’t believe we ever keep an extra day for something Midirabonon.

    The question I have is why Yom Kippur isn’t 2 days long!!?? Why don’t we say sfeika diyoma? Maybe a possible answer is the same answer as in the SHulchan Aruch? (I think) that we don’ want to go two days without the possibility of burying a mes-the same reason why Yom Kippur is never on Friday or Sunday, though that itself may be based more on Hoshanah Rabbah not falling on Shabbos, an additional question now that I think about it.

  • #989755

    How about the answer to the Beis Yosef that the 25th day was for the dedication of the mishkan? I like that answer too.

  • #989756

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    yitayningwut: According to sefarim from the period (that chazal left out of kesuvim for reasons we don’t know) they made it eight days because they couldn’t celebrate sukkos for several years and on the first channuka they actually brought the parei hachag, which incidentally explains Beis Shammai’s shita.

  • #989757

    Shticky Guy
    Member

    We are commemorating one of many nissim that happened in the beis hamikdosh eg that no yevonim died there which would have made the kohanim and the oil tamei (divrei yoel) which explains ‘????? ??? ‘?????? ; also that the menora was lit from fire from the ???? which suddenely appeared to give them fire from a holy source which was a necessity for the menora ; to remember the ness of Yehudis ; that they used some of the oil for the ner maaravi ; that the heichal was full of idols so they had to light in the ???? and even though it was Fri nite it did not rain and the wind did not blow out the flames.

  • #989758

    Shticky Guy
    Member

    The ???? ??? says that the yevanim wanted to be ???? the ???? so we light 36 lights corresponding to the 36 ?????? ???”? .

    The ??????? says that ????? stands for ?’ ????? ????? ???? ??? that we light 1-8 lights like ???? ??? and not 8-1 like ???? ????? . It must be apparent each day that we are lighting according to ???? ???. So if we would light on only 7 nights, then on the 4th day both ???? ??? and ????? ????? would hold that 4 lights are lit, so we would not be able to tell from walking past menorahs who we pa?s?ken like. (and the ??’ ?????? part would not fit in!)

  • #989759

    youngjews
    Member

    If the Beis Yosef had a copy of the Megillas Taanis (which is pretty clear wasn’t available back then) the question would never have gotten off the ground. The megillas taanis, which is the original source of Chanukah in addition to the megilas antiyochus and the Bimei Matisyahu, says that Chanukah is 8 days because that is how long the CHANUKAS Habayis lasted.Period. The end

  • #989760

    mik5
    Participant

    Numbers have great significance in yiddishkeit. 7 = nature, mundane, ordinary (sheva brochas, seven tefillin straps, seven colors of the rainbow, seven days of the week, seven nations of Canaan, etc.) The number 8 means transcending, or rising above, nature. Klal yisrael is not bound by the “laws” of nature. That’s why the oil was found and burnt for so long.

  • #989761

    yitayningwut
    Member

    ItcheSrulik –

    Very interesting.

  • #989762

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    ItcheSrulik, the most it could have been was a Braysa. Kesuvim was closed.

    How can they bring Parei Hachag not in its time? Why didn’t they bring the Musaf for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, too?

    Lebidik, I believe that was PBA’s Terutz.

  • #989763

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    young, the Bach had it and so did the Or Zarua (a Rishon). We make a Bracha of She’asa Nisim on all eight days. That means that there was a Ness on all eight days. The Gemara explains Chanuka as only because of the Ness of the oil.

    The Gemara was actually merely quoting the Megilas Taanis. The Megilas Taanis first says what the Gemara quotes, that Chanuka is because the Menora burned for eight days. Then it goes on to discuss why the Chinuch took eight days. It answers that it simply took that long to fix everything.

    The Or Zerua explains that the reason they needed a Ness and couldn’t get fresh oil was because they were preoccupied with repairing the Klei Shareis, as the Megilas Taanis says. He also says that the name Chanuka comes from the fact that they were Mechanech the Mikdash. But the Yom Tov is only a Zecher of the Ness of the oil. “Period.”

    By the way, Megilas Taanis was made by Tana’im. By the time the Amora’im came around it was already Batul, besides for Chanuka and Purim.

  • #989764

    Shticky Guy
    Member

    Flatbush Dude, Flatbush Dude dont fall for BaalHabooze. He’s a one track minded alcoholic. You should have realized when he talks about a 9th day for the yomtov dirabonon chanuka cos of sfeika diyoma that all he really wants is an extra second day on the other yomtov dirabonon of PURIM!! ☺

  • #989765

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    Shticky Guy- LOL! for me it’s a ‘gantz yor Purim’!

    on that note: R’ Moshe Feinstein answers the first day is a celebration, and a time to give thanks to Hashem for even ‘NATURAL” miracles. Because the fact that oil burns, is also a ‘miracle’ from Hashem. So being that Chanukah is a time of L’hodos U’lehallel, we also make it a point to be grateful to Hashem for the ‘miracles’ of nature.

    Having said that, last night by a chanukah party (the first of many -I hope!) I noticed something in benching that I never paid attention to. we even thank Hashem for……..booze!!

    (Now, in all fairness, it could be the effects from all the drinks that night, but it was there in my siddur!) it said,

    ” V’ALCOHOL anachnu modim lach, u’mevorchim osach.”

    isn’t that cool!! ? ? ? ? ?

    L’chaim yidden, l’chaim!!

  • #989766

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Haleivi: Fair point about them not being able to reopen kesuvim. As for parei hachag, I have no clue what the cheshbon was. Kasha oif ah mayseh.

  • #989767

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    An easy one. How would one light an eight candle menorah, for only seven days? Obviously it has to be eight days!

  • #989768

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    ItcheSrulik, which Sefer did you see it in? A lot of Sefarim Chitzonim are forgeries, and obviously so. The extended version of Maase Yehudis is written so cheaply full of plagiarisms. But if what you saw was something reliable then perhaps the Paros were a Nedava Lezecher the Parei Hachag.

  • #989769

    Shticky Guy
    Member

    V’ALCOHOL anachnu modim lach

    BaalHabooze I love it! My first Purim Torah this year and boy oh boy it’s a cracking one! Now if you can think of one to do with chanuka it would be de-light-ful.

    From Lieutenant-Kernel Shticky;

    The corny glutton for pun-ishment

  • #989770

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    It was in a secular article quoting directly from II Maccabees which is generally considered one of the reliable sefarim sefarim chitzonim. Calling it a zecher is as good an explanation as any. Josephus says something similar too.

  • #989771

    The alter Mekelm has a beautiful answer. He writes that bnai yisroel understood that everything even teva is a neis. If Hashem wills it the light wouldn’t have even lasted for one day. They were able to look into a Maaseh that seemed like teva and they were able to realize that not only was the 7 days the oil laste for was a neis rather it was even the first day. He writes that anything that happens in life there are two ways to look at it.1) that it’s stam a mikreh something that happened BUT from the fact that we have 8 days and not 7 we learn that a person should look at things that happen in the second way.2)you can look at itthrough a ruchnyis hashkofeh and a that it has a ruchnyis Aliya to it. Nothing hapens by chance there is always something you can Learn from it. A freilachin chanuka coffee room. Lol and stop thinking I’m a troll!

  • #989772

    moishy
    Member

    lebidik yankel – I really like your tereitz!! Ever told it to anybody chashuv?

  • #989773

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    thanks Shticky, like I said, “a gantz yor purim”! BTW, nice divrei torah above!!

    and now Kernel Shticky – you asked for it, you get it!

    ***WARNING: CORNY JOKE AHEAD

    hey, last night I made sure to eat so many greasy latkehs because i wanted to wake up nice and oily, LOL!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

  • #989774

    moishy
    Member

    nsnsc03- Why don’t you look up the gemarah in Shabbos 21b and see what the gemarah says about why we have Chanukah?

  • #989775

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    *BUMP*

    any other answers to “The Kasha”?

  • #989776

    Wisey
    Member

    That pshat from the Ri Miluniel explains a bit why Beis Shammai compare neiros to the number of korbanos on sukkos that represent the falling of the gentile nations.

  • #989777

    Wisey
    Member

    What about a sefer that asks kashas on the tirutzim that are given. I’ll start- the Satmar Rebbe answers that one day is in recognition of the fact that Hashem loves us that he makes nisim for us.

    1)Why specifically for this neis do we require another day for this idea? What about purim?

    2)Isn’t that always why we commemorate a neis?

  • #989778

    Matan1
    Member

    The answer is that the first chanukka celebration was a delayed sukkot celebration. While the miracle of the oil was only for 7 days, the sukkot celebration went on for 8 days.

  • #989779

    yekke2
    Participant

    1)

    BaalHaboo, one answers the other. The eighth day wasn’t a Ness and we only keep it because of Sfeika Deyoma. I actually found this in the Arvei Nachal after some time.

    If that would be the case, we would only light 7 candles on the eighth night!

    2)The famous ????? that it stayed lit for 8 days after they lit it on the first (brought by the ??? ???? and the ??? ????) is problematic, because after you put out the candle, the ???? says the wick and the oil must be changed, and you cannot reuse it.

    (It will be ???? on the ?’ ???? if the ???? is to light the ????? or for it to be lit – and whether the ???? of lighting the ????? was the “?????” or part of the ???? ???? was to have a lit ????? by day (?’ ????? ????? ???? ????))

    3) The famous ???? that ??? ?? isn’t ??? ??? – how can they light with that?

  • #989780

    Shuychus
    Member

    yekke2 – Why shouldnt shemen ness be shemen zayis, and the mishna berura clearly hundels whether the mitzva is the hadlaka.

  • #989781

    Kozov
    Member

    yekke please tell us where in the gemara it says they must be changed.

    A similar question is what it says in Menachos 89, 1, it must have a half-lug, the amount to stay lit from night to morning. According to the Beis Yosef (670) in the first answer that they split the oil into 8 portions, or even according to the Pri Chadash there and Tosafos Harash that it was originally filled entirely and every day an eighth burned, this is not being done. Even though according to the Tosafos Harash this law only applies when possible, we know the famous question, if ???? ????? ????? why did Hashem need to do the ness with the oil? The Sfas Emes answers ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????, ????”? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ??????. Hashem cherishes his people and their mitzvas, so he did this miracle so they would be able to perform the mitzva, when they looked for the opportunity to be mehader and do the mitzva of lighting the menorah by searching for oil. Based on this even according to the Tosafos Harash his answer is problematic, Hashem would likely arrange for the miracle to fulfill the mitzva in the most mehudar way.

    -Lubavitcher Rebbe

  • #989782

    Kozov
    Member

    This question applies especially according to what the Rosh Yosef discusses in Shabbos: if we say there must be this specific measurement of oil even bidiavad, and if there isn’t this amount, we may be required to mix impure oil (?????? ??????) into the pure oil to fill it.

  • #989783

    Kozov
    Member

    A possible answer to this question, and yekke’s third question: When the Beis Yosef says in one answer that every day they found the menorah full with oil, this doesn’t mean it was replenished every morning, in which case one can ask, this is not shemen zayis, but shemen nes, but rather it means the oil was never depleted at all. This is like the fire in the ??? as is described in Shmos Rabba 2,5 “????? ????? ?????” burns but does not consume. But at the same time the fire must halachicly come from the oil, and it does as proof of its igniting when there is a wick and oil, and similar to the fire which Rabbi Elazar describes happened to him miraculously in his house in Bereshis Rabba 11,2, which he lit from oil and wick, but when he came Motzaei Shabbas he found it “???? ??? ??? ????”. This is understandably a very great miracle, because it is reliant on the oil and at the same time doesn’t consume it, similar to the paradoxical miracle of ???? ????? ???? ?? ????.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15868&st=&pgnum=114

  • #989784

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    Perhaps Tuma Hutras Betzibur didn’t apply because it was mainly the Kohanim who became Tammei from the fighting, while most of Klal Yisroel were in hiding.

  • #989785

    WIY
    Member

    Haleivi

    The oil was all tamei. Also a zar may light the menorah.

  • #989786

    yekke2
    Participant

    The ???? ????? ?”? says that oil cannot be reused, and if the fire is extinguished it must be changed.

    (See ???”? ????? ?”?, see also ???”?, ??”?)

    yekke2 – Why shouldnt shemen ness be shemen zayis, and the mishna berura clearly hundels whether the mitzva is the hadlaka.

    Shemen Nes does not come from olives; the oil used in the ???? needed to come from olives!!

    The ???? ????? talks about ?????; I was talking about the ????? in the ??? ?????.

  • #989787

    Toi
    Member

    interestingly enough, this hutra bi’tizbura business w/ regard to the menorah is suspect- if you look at the gemara in yuma, it brings ribuyim or learns out all things that have it. the menorah wasnt a korban. whats pshat in the kasha mitchila??

  • #989788

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    WIY, Tuma Hutra Betzibur has nothing to do with oil, it’s about the Tzibur.

    Yekke, that’s Lav Davka. The Torah says you need Shemen Zayis, which is a type of oil. It’s a nice Chap to say that it has to come from an actual Zayis, but it’s not really etched in stone. Anyhow, the problem exists only if the iol spring up from nowhere. If the oil expanded itself, the Shemen Ness issue doesn’t come in to play.

  • #989789

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    The Gemara explains that the point of the Menora is to be an Eidus that the Shechina is Shoreh among Klal Yisroel, through the fact that the Ner Maaravi stays lit until the next lighting. When the story of Chanuka happened, and they saw that it only went down an eighth, they understood that this would be a real Eidus, not just a Zecher of the Edus that was around during the first Beis Hamikdash.

    This coupled with the fact that they had no other oil to use anyhow, they left it and it continued to burn.

  • #989790

    Toi
    Member

    Halevi-its R chaims kasha. Shemen that expanded, or whatever, didnt come from an olive, and isnt kosis either. therefore it should be possul. shemen that looks and smells like shemen zayis isnt, unless it came from an olive.

  • #989791

    longarekel
    Member

    It was olive oil. But after filling the neiros, they found that the jug still contained the oil that they had poured into the neiros. Of course that’s not scientifically possible. That was the neis. The olive oil was poured out of the jug and at the same time it remained in the jug. I will not attemp to explain it. It is a neis.

  • #989792

    WIY
    Member

    Haleivi

    I was right about Tamei oil. Below is a cut and paste from Havolim. Btw he has good schoirah on this topic.

    The rule of Tumah Hutrah Betzibbur is this: Generally, the Kohanim who do the Avodah and the ritual objects which are used in the Avodah, must be Tahor. If, however, the majority of the Kohanim are Tamei, or if the Korban itself became tamei, or if no oil/flour/wine is available which is tahor, then we invoke the rule of Tumah Hutrah Betzibbur, which allows us to disregard Tumah problems.

  • #989793

    longarekel
    Member

    I don’t know what all the fuss is about. Of course tuma hutra but that’s only if there is no tahor oil. So they looked for tahor oil and they found one jug. Hashem did a neis and the tahor oil lasted eight days to show chavivus for bnei yisrael that they wouldn’t have to use tamei oil. (BTW it’s not so pashut that the issue was tuma and tahara. It could be that there simply was no other oil valid for the menora since menora oil had to be specially processed. It took eight days to process proper oil.)

  • #989794

    oomis
    Member

    If each day only 1/8 of the oil burned for an entire day, then the 8th day was as miraculous as the first.

    I like the idea that we should look for the miraculous in our day to day experiences. It IS a miracle that oil will light, even if only for one day. It is a miracle that water will put out a fire. It is a miracle that most of us go to sleep at night and wake up the next morning. The laws of Nature are a miracle. But IMO, the fact that the laws were suspended in such a way as to cause a strong flame to burn using only an 1/8 of the fuel, is TRULY miraculous.

    The first day’s miracle was also that amidst such massive tumah and shmutz, that somehow ONE single cruse of oil was even able to be found with the Kohein’s seal still upon it, untouched, and pure. I to a MUCH lesser degree l’havdil, experienced a taste of this kind of miracle when we were burglarized many years ago.

    The burglar(s) had taken all my jewelry, everything in the bedroom was tossed around and wrecked, in shambles. I was heartbroken, that my lifetime gifts of gold jewelry (more sentimentally important to me than anything else) were gone.

    Especially upsetting was the loss of a ring my mom O”H had given me when her mother was nifteres. My Bubby lived with us for over 2 decades, and when she took ill that last year, I had the zechus of taking care of her much of the time. It was my personal Yerusha from Bubby and I wore it as happily as she did. The theft of that one ring brought me to wracking sobs. I know jewelry should not be THAT important, but it was a symbolic loss of HER all over again.

    Imagine my shock and profound relief and gratitude to Hashem when I began to clean up the bedroom, after the cops left, and as I knelt down to pick up some clothing that had been strewn around, found that precious ring, that apparently had fallen out of their “loot” bag. It was the only thing left of all my jewelry, other than my wedding ring, that I had been wearing. I will not compare the finding of that ring to the finding of one flask of pure olive oil, but it gives me some small measure of the simcha and relief the Chashmonaim must have felt at that time.

  • #989795

    Matan1
    Member

    The answer is in the book of maccabees. They were celebrating a delayed sukkot. In reality, the miracle was only 7 days.

  • #989796

    Sam2
    Member

    Matan: I used to think that was the answer, and also greatly explains what relevance Parei Hechag have to Channukah. But I mentioned it to R’ Schachter and he said he thinks it’s a mistake. It wasn’t that they celebrated Sukkos. He quotes a Tanchuma that says that all Umos used to dance with Lulavim after celebrating a military victory. Thus, the taking of Lulavim after winning the war wasn’t a delayed Sukkos; it was just how everyone celebrated winning a war.

  • #989797

    Matan1
    Member

    did the war end with the miracle of the oil?

  • #989798

    takahmamash
    Participant

    I haven’t had time to read the entire thread, but I must say I’m impressed that there are so many replies about the Beis Yosef’s kasha. I mean, did he prepare it differently than we do? Was his kasha in a different kind of box? And finally, what hechsher was the Beis Yoasf’s kasha under? Would we eat of his kasha today, or are we more machmir than his generation?

  • #989799

    WIY
    Member

    Sam2

    The Rokeach says that they celebrated Sukkos then. Let Rav Shachter argue with Rishonim.

  • #989800

    interestingly enough, this hutra bi’tizbura business w/ regard to the menorah is suspect- if you look at the gemara in yuma, it brings ribuyim or learns out all things that have it. the menorah wasnt a korban. whats pshat in the kasha mitchila??

    Do I know you? I was about to mention the same. There seems to be no reason why you can’t light with Tamei Oil!

    Rav Eibshitz actually says regarding this something very difficult, that this is why Chanuka is the Yom Tov of Torah SheBaal Peh. Hashem was telling us through the Nes that the oil of the Menorah MUST be Tahor, even though there is no Remez in Torah SheBKsav for such a thing. Very difficult to understand.

  • #989801

    sam4321
    Member

    The sefer Mor Uktzia asks a very strong kasha on why it took 8 days to get new oil. He asks that there is a Mishna in taharas which is qouted in mesheces shabbas ,perek chavis shnishbarah which says that if a tamai meis squeezs out oil from olives without touching it and it being smaller than an egg the oil is not tamai,so why couldn’t they just squeeze the oil without touching it?

  • #989802

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    Tosafos holds that Miderabanan food can become Tamei less than a Kebei’a. The whole Tuma in question here is Tuma Derabanan, anyhow. The oil became Tamei because of the Gezeira of Kezavim.

  • #989803

    Kozov
    Member

    Toi, it’s originally the Chidushei Harim’s kasha (though R’ Chaim may have added reasoning in saying it has to have been “kasis”). And both the Chidushei Harim and R’ Chaim are muchrach to answer that there is a difference between oil that “expanded” in the proximity of “real” olive oil, whatever that means, and olive oil created from nothing. However, in light of the answer I provided above that the oil never decreased until the eigth day, we do not need to be forced into that explanation for this question.

    Shticky Guy’s answer about making sure Beis Hillel and Shamai’s opinions never align so therefore no seven days also answers the question of why not nine days because of sfeika dyoma. -Gra

  • #989804

    Toi
    Member

    GAW- I’ve got a present for you. look at ohr gedalyahu on chanuka. if you go through his pshatim on chanuka- the nes, the milchama, the nitzachon-youll understand what he says clearly, that thas the exact nekuda of chanuka being the y”t of tshb”p- our ability to be mechadesh onto torah shebiksav. really kidai.

  • #989805

    Sam2
    Member

    I saw today in the Derech Chochmah (Beis Habchirah 7:10 in the Beur Hahalachah) where he quoted from R’ Elyashiv that the reason Channukah is 8 days is that if there were 7 branches on the Channukiah it would be an Issur D’oraisa.

  • #989806

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Sam,

    Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank said it also (Mikraei Kodesh).

  • #989807

    longarekel
    Member

    Interesting. But who said to have a chanukia? You can light with individual cups which would avoid the issur.

  • #989808

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    The way R’ Frank said it is that it would create a michshol, not that it would be required.

  • #989809

    Sam2
    Member

    Longarekel: Rav Schachter quotes the Maharal that you need Dumia D’mikdash and therefore you need them all in a Kli. And besides, the Lashon of R’ Chaim’s was that people might come to use a 7-branch Channukiah, not that they would have to.

  • #989810

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    That’s truely odd. If it were seven days who said Mehadrin Min Hamehadrin would be to light on more each night? This concept of having a Menora is only about convenience. If it would not be allowed it would never become the Minhag.

  • #989811

    Kozov
    Member

    Sam, how would it be or lead to an Issur when it has always been permissible to make a 7 branch menora with wood or glass?

  • #989812

    benignuman
    Participant

    I think that Matan’s answer is correct in that they were making up for missing Sukkos that year and according to Bais Shammai the lighting of Chanukah neiros is somehow tied to the parei hachag.

    However since we pasken like Bais Hillel the implication is that we don’t hold that the reason is parei hachag, bringing back the Bais Yosef’s question.

    We can answer very simply, however, along Matan’s line of reasoning. Chanukah means a dedication because fundamentally the Bais Hamikdosh (and Klal Yisrael) was rededicated to Hashem. The Chanukas HaBais for the Mishkan was 8 days as was the Chanukas HaBais for the 1st Bais Hamikdosh (I don’t know about the 2nd). They therefore made Channukah, as a holiday of dedication, 8 days.

    The mitzvah of neiros was to light one candle and l’mehadrin, to add to the parsumei nissa and kedusha, to add a candle each night until you have eight.

  • #989813

    tzaddiq
    Member

    my friend told me an answer to the b.y.’s kasha.

    when moshe split the yam suf, he was commanded to do a ????? of raising his hands, and then the water divided. But when the yidden left the yam suf, moshe was commanded to do a ????? to bring the water back to its original state. we see from here, that if moshe didn’t do that, if he didn’t do that second ?????, the water would have remained suspended in its new miraculous state. because a neis, in its essense, is ????? ?? ????, and therefore has no ????, no limit nor boundry. And unless something is done to counteract that, it will remain in its matzav nissi.

    so by chanuka the fact that the oil burned 8 days was a ?? ????. but the phenomenon of the oil STOPPING TO BURN by itself at the end of the 8th day, WHEN NO ????? WAS DONE TO EXTRICATE IT FROM ITS MATZAV NISSI, was an additional neis in of itself, and perhaps a ????? that all 8 days are really one big miracle, including the very first day, through the ????? of lighting that original ner.

  • #989814

    Kozov
    Member

    tzaddiq- Don’t we have a principle ?? ???? ???”? ???? ?????? The ness could just have had an expiration time, which is whenever they would bring the pure oil. -Lubavitcher Rebbe

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15868&st=&pgnum=122

  • #989815

    Wisey
    Member

    Maybe the ness of the first day is that it is possible to spend so much time on a single kasha. This is the same idea as the rest of the days that a single jug of oil produces so much ?? ?????.

  • #989816

    Wisey
    Member

    The nes of Chanukah is that eventhough in every generation the goyim try to extinguish our mesorah of torah shebaal peh, there is always a single jug of oil that they can’t get their hands on. The nes is that this jug keeps the menorah burning with the ?? ????? forever. So in a time of the year when the night is long and it seems that the golus isn’t going to end we thank Hashem that ?? ?? ???? ????? ????

  • #989818

    tzaddiq
    Member

    bump

    this is a nice chanukah thread. i love some of the answers here

  • #989819

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    This question is the Torah version of, Why Did The Chicken Cross The Road. Everyone gives you the answer that comes from their way of thinking. Chassidus, Mussar, beauty of nature, thankfulness, Girsaos, history, revisionist history, Kfira, disregard of the Kasha, Tzvei Dinim, Me’ikara Lo Kasha, philosophy, and I guess I left out some.

  • #989820

    GG yekke
    Member

    i heard an answer today from R’ Elchanan Halpern Shlit”a

    When they found the oil they found it buried in the ground of the Azarah, b/c a goy is considered to have Tumei Zovim – and this tumah is metamei even with just moving something. So had the oil been lying around the Yevonim would have moved it thus making it Tamei.

    So we ask that maybe they did move it? we have a Klal that Sofek Tumeh nirshus harabim is tahor so even had the jug been lying around it would have been Tohor in anyway? Why did it have to be in the ground?

    The Yidden planned to use an 1/8 of the Tahor oil each day and then pour in the rest of tomei oil and it would be botul (by doing it slowly, drop by drop each drop is botul). But although we say that Sofek tumeh birshus harabim is tahor it doesnt have the power to be mevatel tamei oil so it had to be buried so that there would be no Safek.

    This was the nes that on the first day they found oil which there was no safek whether it was tahor or tamei

    Good Shabbos

  • #989821

    Very interesting. Do you have a mekor to that – that sfeko tahor cannot be mevatel tamei?

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